Gone veg:Why?
 

To all the vegetarians/vegans (especially those who do it for ethical reasons):

I'm really interested to hear your personal reasons for giving up the flesh. Also, please include other information that you feel is related (how long you've been veg, what "degree" of vegetarianism you practice, etc).

I'll start :)


I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian, and have been for a little over two years. I chose to give up meat out of a sudden ethical concern. Although I had given up hunting quite some time ago, and had never felt quite right killing things, I continued eating meat until Febuary 2nd, 2001 (?). That day, I randomly decided to take the jump (again, since I'd tried veg in grade school) for good.

To clarify, I don't do this as any sort of social protest or big commentary on the meat industry, but rather just cause I like animals (I'm the sappiest 270 pound-West-Virginian-punk/freak biker-looking-artsy-welder-kinda-guy I know).

i dont understand vegan(no animal products at all) vegitarian is fine but vegsan i think is too much and all the food is like tofu or something strange. but if they like it whatever

i like animals... they taste yummy :)

While I understand being Vegetarian to whatever capacity...and I sometimes will eat vegetarian meals...

I don't understand the whole... "veggie chicken meat" "veggie beef" and the like. Why make it something that you didn't or don't want to eat anyways?

tried vegetables once. BIG mistake. i'm back to meat now :)

I know that for me, the veggie chicken and the like is a real life saver, since it's not that I don't like meat, I just feel weird about killing the animal to get the meat. A lot of vegetarians have certain foods that they still desire, but would rather just give up than abandon their vegetarian diet. I think that's where these products come into play. My two things that I praise Gardenburger for are their Riblets (just like McDonald's) and "chicken" pattie sandwiches. Both are absolutely delicious and they help me to keep to my vegetarian guidelines, since I don't feel like I'm missing anything.

Any other vegetarians that care to weigh in on the fake meat issue?

Im with majik on this one. We dont have to kill animals in order to survive - and its a terrible thought that millions and billions of living beings are slaughtered every year without necessity.

That said, I have to confess that, allthough I decided to be a vegetarian years ago, I lack the moral strenght of the likes of majik and I'm afraid my meat consumption is not much below average, if at all. I lead a life of inconsequence and guilt.

Vegetables aren't food. Vegetables are what food eats.

sure :)

first, i don't understand why people don't understand the whole 'fake meat' thing....

especially considering that there are more reasons for being vegetarian other than just not liking meat...

:shrug:

neways...

i quite like the 'fake meat' products on occasion...

i've even had Tofurkey on Thanksgiving once ;)

my favorites are prolly the fake chicken burgers and fake turkey sandwich meat...

unfortunately, here in Germany, the selection of fake meat products is much less than in the USA. so, you who like it, consider yourself lucky ;)

however, here at McDonalds, we've got 'Veggie Mac's'. YuM. :D

oh...and regarding the whole thread...

is good post, and a brave one - seems to be kinda tendency towards 'masculine carnivore' around here (not that it's bad, i can totally respect that...just i wouldn't've had the guts to make such a thread)

n e ways....

reasons?

wel, i've been vegetarian for over 10 years (it started as new years resolution) ..

why?
started out as more of an ethical thing...i read "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer, and basically started for all the reasons in that book...

and as time went on...i'm still ethically opposed to eating meat, but i recognise it as a purely personal decision, i respect others choosing to eat meat, or whatever.

and as time went on, i became more appreciative of the health benefits of it. my body seems quite pleased with a vegetarian diet.

afaik, it's a lifelong thing for me...

oh, and i'm technically an 'ovo-lacto-pesco-vegetarian'.

:)

my point isn't about the fake meat thing being something weird..but why not call it something different than what it is trying or pretending to be?

at least saeten isn't claiming it's fake ground beef but it does work as a good replacement.

I think that the naming of Chikn Patties, Tofurkey and the like is:

a. Imply that it is meant as a substitute for given meat

b. it's a marketing ploy

BTW, SiN, how is the Tofurkey? I've been wanting to purchase some, but the price is pretty high if it's not any good.

I'm glad to see that there are a variety of opinions on this subject.

Also, I think this thread kinda shows the total respect that all TFP members show towards each other. A thread like this was posted on another site (a good one, also, don't get me wrong) and it turned into nothing but a flamewar with vegans condemning meateaters as murderers (not all the vegans did this) and the meateaters calling the vegs hippies or stupid (once again, not all did this, but the most vocal ones did). It's wonderful to see that there's a place on the net that supports open discussion and respect. All hail TFP!

I was raised in a vegetarian family, and only started eating a bit of meat after I moved out. Now I call myself 90% vege, which means I occasionally have a dish with beef or chicken in it.

I have had lots and lots of the fake meats in my lifetime (in fact my dad used to work in one of the original manufactures plants), and being acclimatized, I found meat kinda strange and weird at first.

My opinion on using them currently is YES IT's GOOD STUFF.

1: It can be used in recepies calling for meat, for folks who want to eat vegetarian, this can simplify cooking, and allow them to eat foods normally seen in recipes.

2: It can be used to help adjust from a meat diet to a vegetarian diet, without as much of an abrupt change.

3: It is MUCH lower in fat etc. and can be eaten by folks who are working on a reduced calorie diet. For instance a product that is available near me (called "Griller") can be used instead of a beef burger, and you get way less calories/fat.

4: Easier to use. I'm no expert here, but possibly less prep work involved in some of these products over their meat equivelent.

5: Taste - some of these products taste great. The BACON replacement I buy is really good, and even some of the guys at work like it. They call it guilt free BLT time.!!!

I've read of a lot of vegitarians who don't eat meat but do eat fish. This is completely beyond me how they can not justifty eating animals, but can justifty eating fish. Anyone in here who could enlighten me on that?

In case you wanted to know...
Some information on two of my favorite meat substitute products. I also like the Loma Linda brand and our grocer carries Yves, which I also eat.

The bacon I like is called "stripples" from Worthington.
http://www.kelloggs.com/products/morningstar/

Here's a little nutritional info

Two strips of..
STRIPPLES
--------------
Total fat: 4.5g
Total Cal: 60
Cal from fat: 40
Sat fat: .5g
Cholestoral: 0mg
Protien: 2g

BACON
---------------
Total fat: 6.24g
Total Cal: 72.6
Cal from fat: 56
Sat fat: 2.21g
Cholestoral: 10.77mg
Protien: 3.86g

source for bacon...it was linked from a pork industry site so...
http://www.diet-data.com/pork_produc...ed_or_roasted/
source for stripples - see above.

The Morningstar Farms Grillers Veggie Burgers are my fav vege-burgers.

64 GRAM GRILLER
----------------
Total fat: 6g
Total Cal: 140
Cal from fat: 60
Sat fat: 1g
Cholestoral: 0mg
Protien: 15g

64 GRAMS of Burger King burger
----------------
Total fat: 14.8g
Total Cal: 208
Cal from fat: 133
Sat fat: 5.9g
Cholestoral: 60mg
Protien: 16.4g

Source for BK data (ratio for a 64g burger)
http://www.burgerking.com/Food/nutri...0,;1&mt=1&dp=1

Thanks for the facts!

As far as the fish thing, I have friends that do that, and they usually have different reasons for it.

One is veg. for ethical reasons, but doesn't feel bad about killing fish. Some don't eat redmeat in order to lower their fat intake, and fish fits well into their health plan.

Myself, I think fish are way too cute to eat, and the "meal to death" ratio is too high for me (1 meal usually equals 1 animal)

On the subject of saving lives, PETA reports that the average vegetarian saves 83 lives per year! (not harping on the killing issues, just thought it was a neat statistic)

marketing and simplification of cooking.. that I can agree with. I go to a vegetarian chinese joint in NYC everyonce in a while.. and I kinda still think it strange that they say they have fake chicken and fake beef. I guess it's better than calling it imitation. But doesn't "fake" also mean that same connotation that most veggies are trying to stay away from which is processed?

The griller isn't that much different in caloric content. Yes the fat content is different, but as far as total calories... you aren't saving a whole lot.

I was a veg. for 6 years but I blew it off and started eating meat again. I now grow my own chicken, duck, turkey, ginea fowl, cow & pig. They all live good (but short) lives. I know what went into them so I know I am eating a good healthy animal that is not pumped full of steroids, antibiotics and other chemicals/drugs. I also fish in the mountains around my house with the exception of the Columbia River as the fish in it have a higher levels of lead and other toxins than I want to consume.

I agree whole heartedly!

I am not a vegeitarian my self, nor ever plan to be, but I do admire the fact you guys can give up meat and are able to stick with it.

I'm an Ovo-Lacto-Pesco-Pollo-Osso-Bucco-Bosco-Cuervo-Spaghetti-O omnivarian

Red meat isn't bad for you. Fuzzy, green meat is bad for you!

incidentally, spaghetti Os are vegetarian. I had them myself camping the other day cold...bleh...i really liked them when i was a kid...

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I recently tried some "fake meats" that I thought I'd share with any felllow vegetarians.

The products are Quorn Roast and Tuno.

The roast is a turkey substitute, and has almost the exact appearance, taste, and mouth feel of turkey! It's incredible.

The Tuno is, as the name suggests, a tuna substitute and makes a good tuna salad. It's in no way a reasonable substitute for a good Yellowfin steak or anything, though!

Just something I thought I'd share.

I'm with you.
Potatoes are meat aren't they?

In all seriouness, I just dont like vegetables.
I like potatoes if prepared right and scallped corn thats it.

So the base of being a vegetarian is feeling guilty.
On what you feel guilty about is the type of vegetarian you are?
If bad things where to come up about farming would the vegetarians starve?
Why is it called vegetarian and not herbivore?

Humans are omnivores.

hmmm,

Tofurkey just sounds...wrong.

just as bad sounding as turducken i guess. I'm gradually lowering my meat intake and using more soy meat substitutes for the times when my instincts kick in and I crave meat for the beast. I feel bad eating other animals and I've lost weight and feel better so I will hopefuly get to a point when I am 100% animal meat free.

Well, if it would help, millions and millions of animals are killed in the farming process, usually in the form of mice, voles, rabbits, etc. during the harvesting process.

Unfortunately, there is no way around having other animals die in order for us to exist.

But I'm not trying to disuade you.

You need to do what you feel is right.

I'm all for animal rights, except animals that are assholes. Like cows and chickens. I grew up on a farm of sorts, and I hate those bastards so much.

I know lots and lots of vegetarians, and i can totally respect their POV and empathize with them, i simply choose not to follow. The one thing that really does get on my nerves though, is the people who become vegan (and sometimes vegetarian but more often you find this with vegan) simply because it's the hip thing to do. If you ask them, they have no real reason they can claim, not that you need one, but you can just tell with some people that they are simply jumping on the bandwagon. I find this very disturbing, especially with vegan, which can be very harmful to your body if you're not a very careful vegan. Anyways, just thought i'd see if anyone else noticed this happening.

I was a vegetarian for 3 years. I started because I just wasn't enjoying meat. I'd look at it and think about what it was, and get really grossed out. So I decided to try going veg for a week, and it stuck for 3 years.

I didn't do it for any animal rights reasons - I grew up on a farm, and food with a face doesn't bother me ethically as much as it bothered me just mentally. Dead muscle. Bleh.

The thing that most made me want to be a vegetarian was 1. how badly most animals are treated before they're killed, and 2. how bad cattle farming especially is for the environment. Factory farming has completely devalued animals and placed financial gain above all concerns for animal or human health or comfort. Pack as many critters as you can into the smallest space possible, then pump them full of antibiotics to keep disease from spreading and chop off their beaks to keep them from pecking each other to death. Nasty. And environmentally, it takes far more land to grow enough corn to feed a cow than it's worth - if you used the same land to grow, say, soy beans, you could feed many more people with the soybeans than with the meat from the cows fed by the same acreage. It's just not an efficient use of resources.

About a year ago, I started craving meat again, and I figured that my personal protest against farming practices and environmental damage wasn't doing much good to change the system, just through one abstention. I decided that it would be at least as effective to just eat the meat and buy from free-range and sustainable farmers whenever possible, and just donate time and money to environmental causes. I still don't eat a lot of meat - maybe 2-3 times/week - but it is nice to have the option.

I can never understand the vegetarians that claim they only eat veggies for a moral/ethical reason. If you just don't like meat, or can't stand knowing the origins of your meat, then that's just fine and I respect and praise your decision. However, this comment stood out to me:

I'm sorry, but the mass production food market we rely on in the US is responsible for the death of *millions* of field animals every year. The only difference between these animals and the ones that we eat is that we actually use the meat from the animals we butcher. The thing is that animals actually do live in those fields that we have to harvest, and the machinery we use to harvest those fields doesn't exactly have animal protection built in. The only way to really make sure that you don't harm another living thing in your daily existance would be to produce everything yourself without the assistance of machinery, and I'm sure that very few people are willing to go that far to save something lower in the food chain. I think that it's time for us to realize what we were made to be, and stop being ashamed for existing as we do. Humans are near the top of the food chain, and as long as you're alive, you will be killing innocent animals. It's a fact of life.

I am a vegetarian because I can't deal with the idea of eating a living animal. I go on a major guilt trip and just feel terrible. I guess I just like animals too much and I feel bad if I eat them.

Well, there's you're problem right there!

They have to be dead before you eat them!

Try killing them first and report back to us how the eating goes :D

I more or less agree with you. I quit eating meat for ethical reasons, back when I was more of the activist type, then I just stuck with it.

There've been some very interesting replies in this thread, and I'm glad to see that almost everyone has given a constructive, honest answer, despite their personal standings on the issue.

I have very little ethical reason for being a vegitarian. The change mostly came with my efforts to eat healthier foods a couple of years ago and lose some weight. I realized that I didn't like the taste or texture of real meat, so the only meat I was eating was very unhealthy, like hot dogs and chicken nuggets. I still eat dairy products and eggs, but I haven't eaten any meat since then. I just can't stomach anything that would actually be healthy to eat.

Exactly. Check out this handy moral spectrum. Put a pushpin at the point below which you will not eat:

Fruits that fall to the ground of their own accord

Plants you have to hurt first (Fruits you pick)

Plants you have to kill first

Lower order moving animals (clams, oysters, shrimp)

Food that involves hurting animals (honey, milk, eggs)

Common food animals (pig, cow, deer)

Uncommon food animals (ostrich, buffalo)

Animals you killed with your own hands

Endangered species (whooping crane)

Cute animals (bunny rabbit, cat, dog)

Intelligent animals (dolphin, chimpanzee, koko the signing gorilla)

Humans that wanted to be eaten (that guy in germany)

Humans that you don't care for very much (osama)

Humans that you like (grandma)


You will probably note that you fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum somewhere, like most people. If you actually think about it, it's kind of amazing that 80% of the people in the US draw the line somewhere between cows and buffalos. Throughout the world, you will find people all over this spectrum.

My advice to everyone: use your head, think about what you believe in. Don't be a sheep, eating only what convention tells you to eat. If you're morally ok with eating bald eagle, going down to mexico and hunting a few is to me much better than blindly following what the masses are doing, without ever thinking why.

a lot of vegetarians are guilt driven, the same way you would be guilt driven about eating chimpanzee or grandma.

(i'm lacto-ovo, btw)

I should also note that moral issues are secondary to me, compared to environmental issues. But that's another topic.

i'm surprised only one person has mentioned that field animals get killed in the harvesting of vegetarian foods. If you're a vegetarian for ethical reasons, then I think you should be eating your own stuff out of your own garden. Otherwise, you're still killing animals.

http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm

according to this, the foods grown for vegetarian diets actually kill MORE animals than killing animals for food. So unless you've got your own garden (or you don't eat meat for non-ethical reasons), you might as well enjoy some good ole fashioned steak.

um yatzr...some would argue that killing mice is not that big a deal. I would be one of them--unless you're extinguishing a particular species or something, I'm all for killing mice, even for soybean production. Most vegetarians in the US have no qualms about killing mice and cockroaches. If you see some sort of moral ambiguity in that, then I can't help you.

Benjamin Franklin was a vegetarian for a while, until he one day happened upon some fish that smelled pretty good (emphasis added):

" I believe I have omitted mentioning that in my first Voyage from Boston, being becalm'd off Block Island, our People set about catching Cod & hawl'd up a great many. Hitherto I had stuck to my Resolution of not eating animal Food; and on this Occasion, I consider'd with my Master Tryon, the taking every Fish as a kind of unprovoked Murder, since none of them had or ever could do us any Injury that might justify the Slaughter.--All this seem'd very reasonable.--But I had formerly been a great Lover of Fish, & when this came hot out of the Frying Pan, it smelt admirably well. I balanc'd some time between Principle & inclination: till I recollected, that when the Fish were opened, I saw smaller Fish taken out of their Stomachs:--Then, thought I, if you eat one another, I don't see why we mayn't eat you. So I din'd upon Cod very heartily and continu'd to eat with other People, returning only now & then occasionally to a vegetable Diet. So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for every thing one has a mind to do.--"

Yatzr, as a side note: the tibetan buddhist belief is that each life is equally sacred. Therefore, it is better to kill one yak and feed four families than kill hundreds of shrimp for the same purpose. The dalai lama has even gone so far as to condemn the shrimp industry.

Obviously, people take different moral stances on such issues.

That's a really interesting quote!

I'd never heard that story.


As for the killing of field animals in the production of food, if I was that dead set on no animal ever being killed by the conveniences of my lifestyle, then I'd sell my car, too, in fear that I may hit something in the road...and that ain't happening. I'll try my best to swerve around anything in the road, and so far that's worked great.

Either way, I'm going to be eating vegetables, so those animals are dead regardless. So, if I'm not eating actual meat, then I guess I'm still "fighting the good fight"...just not as hard.

As for my own garden, yes I try to eat as much locally, organically grown crap as I can. We no longer keep a garden, but we did for years, and for quite sometime, all my vegetables came from there. It's not because I give a shit about the field animals so much (although I do), but because my family owns a farm, and I try to support the local farmers.

I went vegan for 4 months on a dare from a vegan friend. I absolutely hated it!!! You had to read every damn label of everything you put in your mouth to make sure it has no animal products, and organic food is VERY expensive. I was spending about $75 a week on just my food by myself. Plus I don't like many vegetables, so I was stuck with a much more limited range of foods. I ended up switching back to omnivore status. To all vegans I will paraphrase Blade II.

I was born an omnivore....the only difference between us...is that that I made peace with what I am a long time ago. :P

I also agree that killing mice is not that big of a deal, but I'm in the category that killing cows is also not that big of a deal. I'm just saying that i highly disagree with people who will put one animal's life over another based on how much they like them. It just seems kind of hypocritical to me. To me, they're all the same...a candidate for supper. If you don't care that free living mice (and rabbits...they're a little more cuddly) are viciously torn up in harvesting equipment, why should you care if cattle that was raised to be food anyway (so they didn't really have much of a life to live) is pretty much painlessly killed?

I'm not trying to get anyone to stop being a vegetarian or anything, but it makes me mad when some vegetarians (especially the ones that don't eat organic foods) think that they've never had anything to do with the death of a single animal and they try to chew me out for eating meat (I've gotten yelled at quite a few times). I respect vegetarians and those who want to protect animals (except PETA...they're just plain dumb), but i've found a lot of them to be hypocrites. I just don't like it when I get yelled at from a hypocrite (i'm not saying that i felt like i was yelled at in this thread or that anyone here is a hypocrite, i'm just ranting now).

Me and the lady were talking about this same issue last night. She eats the occasional chicken breast, but mostly sticks to fish and veggies, and i try and stay away from red meat.

I could never go vegan for ethical reasons because i think to do so would totally ignore the fact that by merely choosing to exist in the civilized world you have stated your position in terms of humans>animals. All modern civilization has advanced very much at the expense of the "natural" world and its animals. I have met too many vegans who believe that by simply avoiding animal products they can remove themselves from that legacy. I think veganism attempts to soothe a conscience that has no right to be soothed.

I've thought about choosing to not eat meat because i don't want to be part of factory farming and all that market driven brutality, but not all meat is produced under such conditions. Dead animals aren't the problem here. That is why i don't think avoidng meat is the solution. The problem is that the majority of america endorses the factory farm system every time they buy meat. People are always going to eat meat, and the factory system is always going to be in place until people decide they want better treatment for their meals and fork over the extra money for free range, antibiotic free goodness.

Another reason i don't care for veganism is that it is very difficult to eat well. It is like holo said, very time consuming and expensive. I worked at a natural foods co-op for a few years and aside from the fruits and veggies and some bulk stuff, all the vegan food was ultrasuperprocessed crap. Vegan cheese is a miracle of modern chemistry. It is not something the truly health concious person would want to eat on a regular basis. Not that i don't enjoy the occasional veggie burger or quorn(actually made from fungi) patty.

I'm a meat fanatic but I appreciate and respect those who are some sort of vegetarian. The one thing that does get me though is how fanatical groups such as PETA will go to the point of stupidity to get their point across that eating meat is not only bad but horrible. It really just hurts those who are vegans for example and gives the general population a poor image to work with when they thing Vegetarian.

I'll give an example though its not really pertaining to eating. A few years ago in the city there is a Mink farm. The mink are bred exclusively for the fur. I know a guy who's family owns the place and while they kill them they don't torture them or anything. In any event, some folks think that its cruel and decide to break in and let out hundreds of the mink. Since the mink are fed by hand they all die in the wild within days as they have no idea how to survive in the wild. The act of releasing those mink did nothing. All that happened was the mink died and my friends family went into a financial hardship of sorts, which did not make me happy. The only reason I'm saying this is I just don't like fanatical people who protest outside places that happen to sell burgers or whatnot.

Are you serious? so you would have no qualms about eating:

chimpanzee
koko the signing gorilla
somebody's grandma (sold off to feed the rest of the family)
your dog

unless you have absolutely no scruples, everyone draws a line at some point. Exactly where you draw it is a function of your personal principles.

My issues around meat revolve around the corporatization of the farm. The ways in which animals are raised giant feed lots and massive chicken farms is an environmental hazard...

The ways in which they are currently processed only exacerbates the issue.

I'm not even touch what has happened to our milk supply (thankfully bovine growth hormone has not be cleared in Canada).

I still eat meat but I only eat organic from small independant farms. It is a little more expensive but I can (thankfully) afford it.

well, unless that grandma was the grandma of an animal, no I would not eat a grandma. I never said I would eat anything...just any animal (and no I don't think that humans are considered animals). And yes I would eat chimpanzee, koko the signing gorilla, and even my dog if they happened to be packaged up in the store. I wouldn't be able to kill them myself, because I have a hard time killing anything warm blooded...even mice. But that doesn't mean i wouldn't eat them if somebody else killed them for me. So my line would be anything below humans.

i don't know if this would add anything to the function of my principles, but I like my steak rare...as in bloody as hell and just about still mooing. I just thought that might help your analysis of me.

The best reason I ever heard for going vegetarian was somebody who explained, "I didn't have much money, and meat was expensive." So she learned all she could about vegetarianism and cooking, and the last I heard she was teaching "Quick and Easy Vegetarian Cooking" classes at the local adult school.

In terms of morality, I'll only say that it's a copout to eat an animal that somebody else killed, if you couldn't bear to kill it yourself. If you would do it, though, that's another matter.

Eventually, if the world keeps adding population, meat's going to become more expensive anyway, unless we find a way to grow it in vats or something. Cattle grazing either takes a lot of land, or it takes a lot of grain. And I think if you're corn-feeding a cow, it takes something like ten pounds of feed to make one pound of cow. Right now we're swimming in corn in this country, mainly because of steep government subsidies. But someday...

It's the food chain. Just because it's done in a plant, and not on a plain with a guy and spear, does not make it any different.

You don't yell at lions for consuming zebras, when there's all that yummy grass around, so I don't see how one could argue humans are any different.

And don't give me "we shouldn't because we're civilized"... that's crap. Go eat some meat- it's good for you, the world was founded and thrives on it, and you fuck with nature when you disturb it's balance.

Meat is yummy. Thank you.

I went vegetarian for two years (although I still ate fish - Kurt Cobain said it as ok), bt I only did it to impress a girl. Once we broke up, I went back to eating meat again. I think it is easier to lose weight as a veggie though

yatzr: are you around the washington dc area? I would glady come and strangle, skin, and butcher your dog, and then you could enjoy dog steaks. not my personal favorite (dog has a strong taste) but would do so and you could prove your point at the same time.

anyways, the idea that there's some fine line between humans and animals is an interesting distinction--unless you have religious reasons for believing so (souls and all that)...gorillas and humans share 99% of their dna. how would you feel about eating:

aborted fetuses
person less intelligent than your average monkey (i assume such people exist)
person brain-dead from accident
someone evil (mr. manson)


(note: not really talking about being grossed out about eating these things--more about being morally disgusted by the idea)

my point is still that there's a moral line that everyone draws--some point beyond which the idea of eating, of causing death causes moral disgust. there's a great diversity of things to eat in the world, and the line gets drawn arbitrarily at a point, even though you could argue with the person about particular things that they *ought* to be able to eat, based on their arguments. where that line is drawn is a matter of personal opinion, and even though it's often a bit arbitrary, drawing the line is far from a useless exercise. for you, your line is humans/non-humans. but i could argue at length and perhaps get you to concede that special case #23432 ought to be eatable. but that doesn't make your line-drawing of humans/non-humans not useful.

well, let me say it one more time. I will not eat anything, just any animal. Yes that includes gorillas. Just because their dna is 99% the same as humans doesn't make them humans. You could find the two humans with the most different dna in the world and they would still be a million times more similiar than a human's and a gorilla's. That 99% means nothing in terms of a fine line between a human and a non human. If you can't tell a human and a gorilla apart, then I can see what you're saying. But otherwise I think the difference between a human and an animal is pretty clear. So just so you don't ask me how I feel about eating people again, I will quote myself in nice bold letters:

I will not eat anything, just any animal.

yatzr, send me your snail mail address. i can arrange to get you fresh dog.

rsl12, would that really satisfy you? If I documented myself eating dog? For starters, I'm not going to send you my snail mail address because I just don't trust you. Second, I don't have to prove anything to you. If you think that I lied and wouldn't really eat dog, then you can think that and I'll let it be. I honestly don't care what you think about me, I just posted my personal morals, ethics and whatnot on the subject. I'm sorry to dissapoint you. Last, I can get my own dog meat. thanks though

fair enough--you have no reason to trust me--that's probably the smart thing to do.

btw, i'm giving up the internet for lent! have fun everybody.

Recently turned Vegan!! I'm glad there are some threads on this. I decided to stop eating meat and cut out dairy because of the horrible way the animals are treated. I don't like or agree with the abuse. I am in good shape from cutting out all of the fatty foods. I'm happy with my decision. I wouldn't mind maybe starting up with dairy again as long as it's free range. I'm doing my research. Every single person I have discussed this issue with has disagreed with the idea of vegetarianism. Too bad for them. I have people making me bets about how I will change my mind. I don't tell them about the horrible footage I've viewed.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with eating meat. My ancestors survived off of deer and fish. (aleut & sioux) I just don't agree with the way they are treated and killed.
I've been told that I am going against God by making this decision. This is probably the most annoying comment I've recieved so far. Whatever though.

why do free range dairy only and not meat?
i personally have been trying to go all organic meat simply because of all the hormones they use on the animals.

also way earlier in this thread, there was a comment on 1 person not eating meat saves like 80animals or something, im not quoting it cause of its 2year old+ status
but basically this claim makes no sense to me. if you dont eat it, its not going to be not killed, its just going to rot due to no consumption.
anyway, the only person i know who is a veg is my mom, and thats just cause she doesnt like the texture/taste of most meat much. but it also gave an iron deficiancy so take vitamins.

I've struggled with this for quite some time, as my fiance is a vegetarian, and her brother is a vegan. Fortunately, she (my fiance) still eats seafood, but her brother is no-holds barred no animal products whatsoever vegan. He needs special soap, toothpaste, food (of course) and just about everything else you use in daily life.

As far as my fiance is concerned, the reason I struggled with her vegetarianism is because it was so inconsistant - inconsistant with her reasoning. Originally, she said that she didn't eat meat because of the ethical issues. I didn't really understand this, as she ate fish/lobster/shrimp/anything else that comes from the sea, and has leather shoes, jackets, pants, ect. One day we were talking about it, and she finally told me that the reason she doesn't eat meat is simply because she doesn't like it - which makes a TON more sense to me than her "ethical issues" arguement. Obviously, I have no issues with vegetarians/vegans, but I still like a good steak every once in a while, although living with her it becomes more and more rare that I have one :D

As far as the "fake meat" was concerned, I suppose it does make a lot more sense to me now that it has been explained... It likely would make it quite a bit easier for someone who likes meat to make the transition to vegetarian if they were doing it for ethical reasons or whatever.

However, one arguement I don't really agree with for vegetarianism is the sheer amount of land that it takes to raise meat vs. vegetables. I'm not trying to say that it doesn't take a ton more land for someone to raise meat, but there isn't a land or food shortage - so why does it matter at this point? If we were destroying the land, making it unable to be used for vegetable planting later, I would understand it a lot more, but if I remember correctly, the United States produces more food each day than it would take to feed the entire world for a day. If it came down to the point where the world was struggling to produce enough food for everyone, I would advocate eating less or no meat, but until we reach that point, I don't see why it is even brought up...

Hope you feel good about your decision 5757--I've been veggie for about 10 years now--it's easier with time.

A fair argument can be made for eating meat, if you are the type to interpret the Bible literally. I guess the most direct quote regarding the topic is this one:

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. -- Gen.9:3

You may, however, wish to refer them to other passages in the bible, that sort of blur the line on what God wants us to eat:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/eat.html

And, of course, you may refer many other non-food related passages in the Bible, that might make them blush if they were to take the literal instruction.

Well, this would be true if the world decided stop eating meat tomorrow. We could say the same thing about asparagus--a lot of unpleasant smelling rot. But let's say asparagus consumption dropped 30% in the next 10 years. Will the poor farmers be knee deep in rotten asparagus?

The reason I choose not to eat or drink free range is because I can never truly be sure about the conditions the animals are in. I don't care if the package says free range, I need to see it for myself. I'd rather raise my own. Of course that isn't going to be happening anytime soon, so vegan it is. :lol:
skinnymofo - I will definitely take vitamins! thanks!

Nosoup - what I've read from the peta2 website is that basically because there are people starving in this world, rather than using land to grow food for animals we eat, why not grow food for the 'starving people' It takes so much feed for all of the livestock. It's massive amounts of wasted food basically because it goes straight to the cattle. If we didn't consume so much meat, there would be less hungry people.

rsl12 - I feel great! It's getting easier already. I have discovered so many great foods I can eat. I went to Trader Joes yesterday and got some vegan butter! It rocks! As far as not eating meat, it's not a problem at all. I never really liked it in the first place.
I'm too worried about going against some type of commandment or anything. My mom feels so strongly about eating meat and that makes it a little hard. I went ahead and started up a conversation on this subject in front of my mom with a respected member of the church we go to. He totally shut my mom down on any ridiculous ideas she had about choosing not to eat meat and the consequences..................o o o o o o o o o h consequences. :lol:

You can get plenty of iron from plant sources, so you should check your diet has sufficient iron before self-medicating. I'm vegan and my blood sank like a stone when I had an anaemia test before giving blood a few weeks ago- most vegetarians shouldn't have any problem getting enough from their diet. Not saying people shouldn't watch their iron intake and supplement if neccessary, just so no one worries and starts overdosing on iron because someone online said they know a vegetarian who had an iron deficiency.

The only vitamin you should consider taking regardless of your diet is B12. B12 deficiencies are extremely rare and usually you'll have enough in your own system to keep you going whether you eat meat or not, but it's just not worth risking when very little is known about it.

And I've been vegetarian for about 5-6 years and vegan for just over a year. My reasons are mostly to do with the inefficient use of land in the world, ethical reasons (On the subject, I've never met a vegan who was totally anti-death-of-anything-alive-ever for anyone who wants to start asking about natural carnivores. It's more about cutting out unneccessary and deliberate exploitation of animals. A lion has no other choice but to eat meat, and it doesn't raise its meat in unnatural conditions and unnatural numbers), environmental reasons, etc. I just don't think it's neccessary. While I believe it's perfectly natural for humans to eat whatever they find, we have a definite herbivore bias in our anatomy which means we don't need meat and there are so many of us it seems wasteful to throw away masses of land and food so that rich countries can eat meat and dairy at every meal.

It's not about thinking if I don't eat meat it's going to change the world and several animals I wouldn't have bought will be released on a special animal sanctuary somewhere, it's more about being at ease with myself and the only changes it can make are by promoting veganism simply by being happy and healthy with my lifestyle, and campaigning for better treatment of the farm animals that are going to be used. I'm not so hopelessly addicted to meat or dairy that I have to go against my beliefs to eat it, and I generally feel a lot more comfortable with myself if when I eat my money is not going directly to support those practises I don't believe in.

That sounds like it must have been a *great* conversation. What kind of consequences did your mom have in mind??

I love my meat. I don't have an ethical or emotional issue with eating animals.

I do try to get as much of my meat from free range or small farms though. I figure quality>quantity and that the animals will be treated better.

Nowadays, I eat based on practicality. I try to have a mostly vegetarian diet, and have recently been cutting down on my milk drinking and having soy milk more. But - I eat a burger about 2 or 3 times a week, or some other meat product. I like eggs and fish too. I think meat is great because you get such a useful mixture of amino acids in it's protein, good for building muscle and repairing my cells, soy is ok, but the estrogen-like compounds in soy might be bad for gaining muscle - which I am trying to do.

I think too high of a meat diet is bad due to fat intake and it's effects on your body making cholesterol to deal with the fat. However, too little meat or protein and you will be treating your body too badly to gain muscle and will be really skinny and weak.

I tried vegetarianism for 2 years, it was just fine, but I enjoy the meat in my diet now.

edited cuz this thread has gone wayy too much off topic for me.

rsl12 - I think she basically thought that I was going to be judged harshly for not following this paticular 'commandment' as she likes to call it. I'm basically rebelling. Not following the word of God. :rolleyes:

NISSES - Wow. You couldn't be more wrong. This thread was revived after being at the bottom for over a year, and revived well I think. We are actually right now topic. Gone veg + why. Well, I revived it with - Yes I have gone veg. and why. I then added a little extra: the trouble I'm having. Anyway, I think we're pretty much on topic here.

Rofgilead - Explained that he had become a vegetarian and *why.

Skier has replied in response to the reasoning from us veg. people. So basically he's not *veg + he tells *why*.

Blaise- Is *Vegan + explains *why.

rsl12 and I have been discussing the *"why"* and reasoning here. Seems on topic.

skinnymofo and nosoup seem pretty on topic here.

Sorry, I'm just a little confused as to where we got "off" topic. Maybe if you pointed it out that would help. :rolleyes: