Teacher goes nuts over national anthem
 

Short version: teacher at NJ high school has been flipping out on students for not standing during the national anthem during morning announcements. Students decide to film it, and are punished.
Video (no direct link)
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I especially like how the student was suspended for "violating the teacher's rights" when the teacher was violating everyone else's rights by making them stand. Wasn't there a court case a few years ago that established that an individual did not have to stand/say the anthem/pledge of allegiance? Regardless, forcing someone to be patriotic is fascism, and I wish that I lived in NJ because I'd visit that school in person.

I am suprised that any teacher would be so small as to pull a chair out from under a student. State run institutions seem to be trying to excersizing their power as if part of a totalitarian organization. Not only do I feel that the student should have the right to sit and stand but that he should have the right to be treated with respect and dignity. If he was so opposed to him sitting, although still unacceptable, he should have been asked to leave until this mattered was discussed and resolved. How can you raise these people to become adults if they will not be treated as such.

The complete video was shown on The Oreilly Factor last week.. Do not immediately discount the source, they showed the entiire thing. This asshole was intentionally trying to cause trouble and deserved everything he got....... and more.

Not to mention this same fool was caught on video vandalizing private property. Oh the humanity.

Yeah, Olbermann showed most of the video on Countdown a couple of days ago.

These kids were showing off just to show off and were purposefully trying to instigate the teacher. My understanding is these kids weren't interested in actually making a statement, but rather trying to piss the teacher off so they could film it and show it off to their buddies.

The guy was pushed and lost his cool. I'm not trying to defend the guy because he was obviously out of line, but I can understand his position.

Bottom line... this was not an attempt to express a political point of view by the the students, it was basically a "fuck you and what are you gonna do about it" to the teacher.

Sure you would. Even if you did go "visit that school" and waste your time, what would you do there? Tell him off? Beat the guy's ass? That'll show those fascist pigs as the police escort you away in handcuffs!

Anyway, while the teacher certainly got out of line, I'll still have to side with him. Those kids seem like little fuckers. I should know, I use to be one. There's only so much shit people can put up with, and I'm sure the teacher has had to put up with a lot every single weekday since the beginning of the school year. I have been yelled at by teachers before, and I deserved it. Of course, thoughts like this come only in retrospect, and right now these punks probably feel like the system is out to get them. They need to grow the fuck up.

Yeah, the teacher was a little psychotic. But I put most (not all, most) of the blame on the student involved.

It is the trend today, to be irksome. Students have been brought up for years being told that they have rights, and that nobody can make you do what you don't want to do. Students can't be punnished for how they talk in class, what sort of attitude they take, or whether or not they decide to follow the teacher's directions. And they know this, and so, they abuse it.

It comes down to a matter of punnishment. Kids, yound and older, aren't punnished today they way they used to be. They don't grow up learning that you shouldn't sass your elders, unless they want a hand to cross their face. They don't learn the ever so simple yet ever so misunderstood "treat others as you would treat yourself." Instead, they are treated with respect and dignity without ever learning that these things should be returned in kind.

Students -- especially those in high school, and even now middle school, are learning that they can act however they want. They don't have to listen to teachers, because the teacher's dont truly have authority over them. And it's true. Teachers' roles have beed reduced to the distributor of marks, and busywork assignemnts. They are no longer disciplinarians, they are no longer role models, and in cases like this, they are no longer 'teachers'.

There are some, like this man, that believe they can still shape students, and make them into something more. but no, this teacher has been disillusioned. All of his power has been taken away by the current trends of society, to the point where he is unable to teach his students the respect he was forcefully taught as a child. And yet he tries, and yes, goes too far in this case.

But the majority of the blame is not his. The student is bending the freedomshe has been given by a whole generation, and the techer quite simply won't stand for it. This happens every day, in every school across North America, in some way or another.

Students push and push teachers, who are given no ammunition with which to fight back. So inevitably, some of them do the 'wrong thing' when they are pushed to far, and snap.

But really, is pulling the chair out from under the student so wrong? Fifty years ago, would this have been tolerated? Would the student have been tolerated, or would he have been 'out of line' far before then, and punnished accordingly? Who is to say?

I believe the youth of today are a terribly maladjusted generation with far, far too little discipline, and far, far too few legitimate authority figures.

A long post made short:

They need to grow the fuck up indeed.

two professions I would never consider going into...... teaching, doctor. Although at first blush iappears doctos have deeper pockets, lawyers are having a heyday with both of these professions.

Ironically, I want to get a law degree.

Regardless of what their motive was, students should not be forced to stand during the National Anthem or Pledge of Allegiance. It might be because they're just some troublemakers, and it could be that they're Jehova's Witnesses and are not allowed to.

Freedom of expression is quickly dying in this country.

I am so glad I didnt grow up in a country where things like this are allowed, and even approved of by the "moral majority"

No, I would calmly request a meeting with the principal and/or superintendant and have a nice little chat with him or her.

And it really doesn't matter whether the kids were being assholes or not. They shouldn't have to stand. It's like saying someone doesn't have the right to an attorney because he doesn't have enough manners. When you start picking and choosing who to give rights to, that's when there's a problem with the entire system.

The issue shouldn't be whether he stands for the nation anthem, but his f-you attitude. When I was in school having an attitude like that would get me thrown out on my ass. In my opinion, the nation anthem doesn't even need to be played in a public school, just as their is no need for public school prayer.

hah i live about 20 minutes from that school

I think the bottom line here is that the kids who made this video are immature and complete morons. Why make a video in an attempt to expose your teacher and then provoke him by laughing and giggling at everything he says. Anybody who is clearly passionate about the national anthem will react negatively to immature chatter and blatant disrespect. Whether or not it was their right to stand or sit, they set themselves up for failure on this one and got what they deserved.

Whether or not they dd it on purpose- If silent protest followed by a quiet "I don't have to stand" is "pushing" him, then i'd hate to see him in an actual pressure situation. It's bullshit to say that what they did was "pushing" him. He just didn't stand.

Of course if we watch JUST this clip out of context, it'll seem like the teacher was out of line, but I'm just saying that I don't think we know the completely story. We don't know what type of class it is or who these kids are anyway, as in, is this the school's "trouble" class.

My sister is currently trying to teach right now and she tells me that he's harassed all the time by her students because she is young and she is a female and if she shows any sign of weakness, they'll step all over her... so all I'm sayin is I'd like to see the surrounding story.

I was also talking about this story with some other people and they said that these same kids were arrested because the website that they posted their videos on was investigated by police and it was found that these same kids videotaped themselves vandalizing people's houses during Christmas by ripping off lawn ornaments and stuff... soooo... come to your own conclusions as to what type of classroom that was. :)

I agree the kids were stoking it, but the teacher is still a spazz. I don't think anyone here in canada would do that. I guess we're just not patriotic enough.

Interesting......I'm going to sound like an old man here, but nobody has brought up what would have happened if I was in the same scenario 20 years ago when I was in High School.

Story would have ended: Teacher calls parents. Teacher tells parents that I'm being a disrespectful little shithead. Mom comes and picks me up. Dad comes home and rolls over me mentally and physically like a steamroller. Lesson learned. I go back to class and behave like a decent young man should.

Kapish?

Kids were morons and decided to piss off the teacher. And he fell for it hook, line and sinker.
If he is supposed to be a role model, shouldn't he be above an act such as this?

Sister Ann would have knocked some sense into me first, before my mother (a teacher) knocked more sensed into me - -then it'd be all over when my dad got to me...

What was the kid trying to prove by not standing? That he was badass and not doing what the teacher expected of him (I"ve been to football games where fights have almost erupted when people didn't remove their hats during the anthem)

I would never stand if someone tried to make me, unless I was under genuine threat. In fact, in school, on about the three times we were supposed to sing "God Save the Queen" I turned my back on and folded my arms and wouldnt sing. I never got in any shit for it though.

I think the point of not doing it is saying "you do not have the right to tell me what to do"... "this is not MY anthem, and I will not recognise it, and you have no right to force me"... the issue of a song may be petty, but the broader issue, that children should be forced to salute a flag whether they want to or not is, frankly.. terrifying to find that some people do not come down on the side of the kids.

He was trying to prove that the state authority should not have the authority to force him to recognise their anthem, and obey their instructions that had no functuonal purpose. It is not about anything other than power. The school saying "you are weak, you are nothing and I will force you to do whatever I please, whether you care to or not"

Lemme rewrite this story. Kid(s) don't stand for the anthem, teacher doesn't spaz out, then teacher calls parents, blah blah. Much better way to handle situation, in my opinion.

Agreed. but..
Provoking him is not a good way to get your point across. The students could have used other methods than setting off a psychotic teacher. They weren't even close to being in the right.

(neither was the teacher)

It doesn't matter whether or not this is the "trouble class." The kid was, arguably, being an ass, but the teacher still has no right to force this on him. And, whether or not this kid's doing things he's not supposed to, how does that have any effect on forcibly making him stand?

And while I'll buy that a teacher might have to show backbone lest the students trample them, forcing a student to stand as this teacher did doesn't really fall into having a backbone.

The guy had a history of spazzing out over this before. The kids deliberately brought a camera in to record it in hopes of getting it on tape, not for righting a wrong, but for their amusement. Did you miss all the snickering and mugging for the camera or was I watching something else?

Not to mention the fact that these kids put it up for perusal along with several other videos (including some of the same kids) vandalizing homes and christmas light displays.

Were these kids silently protesting and protecting their rights by staging a sit down? No, these kids were instigating a teacher so they could film it and have a good laugh later on.

I said it once, but I'll say it again in case anyone missed it the first time. I'm not trying to defend the guy because he was obviously out of line, but I certainly understand why he did what he did.

Was it wrong? No doubt about it, but before we all get up on our high horses and remember fondly the days when we staged our first protests and stood up for what's right simply because it was right, we should at least try to see the whole story, no?

Would you really expect the kids to do absolutely nothing at this? You've been in a highschool before, right? The kids are there to have fun with friends, and maybe learn in the process. The fact that this teacher thinks he can act in this way scares me. My little brother, currently enrolled in highschool, actually was protesting the pledge of aleigence by non violent protest. He didn't stand and didn't recite the pledge. Why? My little brother does not beleive in pledging alleigence to a flag. The constitution and freedom is where our alleigence should lie. My little brother's teacher got mad at him, too. Guess what? The teacher was asked very nicely by the principal to back off. What would I have done if my little brothers teacher would have pulled out the seat and yelled at my little brother? I would have had him fired and forced him to have therapy in order to ever teach again.

How does that excuse the teachers actions?

[QUOTE=guthmund]Were these kids silently protesting and protecting their rights by staging a sit down? No, these kids were instigating a teacher so they could film it and have a good laugh later on.

If you were in the teachers shoes, would you have yelled and pulled out the seat? If yes, then you shouldn't teach. If no, then you can't excuse his bahavior.

You understand physical violence from a teacher towards a student over something as petty as standing for the flag salute?

This wasn't a protest. It was not intended as a protest. Those kids wanted to mess around, and inadvertantly showed how dangerous their teacher is.

[QUOTE=TexanAvenger]It doesn't matter whether or not this is the "trouble class." The kid was, arguably, being an ass, but the teacher still has no right to force this on him. And, whether or not this kid's doing things he's not supposed to, how does that have any effect on forcibly making him stand?

I wasn't saying that I agree with what the teacher did. I don't think you should have to yell and use force to get your point across. I'm just saying that a lot of other people (not only on TFP) see this clip of the video and just say, "whoa, this guy is insane".

I'm just saying that, I personally, like to think about the whole situation instead of just jumping to the conclusion that the guy is a complete lunatic. :-P

The kids were assholes, with a camera and provocative attitudes. While I don't agree with the teacher's methods completely (I was once a teacher), a classroom and school in general is not a democracy of any kind. There is no crisis of expression here at all. The boys' behavior was disorderly and disruptive. Moreover, a teacher is given both rights and responsibilities to control the environment in his/her classroom while instructing at the same time. My sympathy is deep for anyone dealing with assholes like those boys -- in loco parentis really sucks sometimes, when forced upon a teacher by the behavior of children intent on disruption. Ignoring or tolerating disruptive behavior is NOT the answer. I'd love to be proven wrong, that the assholes' parents really did everything they could could foster in their children a respectful attitude, but I suspect instead that the parents will try to defend their children's attitude by claiming rights instead of addressing responsibilities.

As for pulling out the chair -- BRAVO! It's exactly what I would have done. The asshole could sit on the floor as a deliberate sign of protest, and that I would have tolerated. Sitting on the floor would have been the logical response of a person seeking to preserve their "rights" (which seem to be completely undefined by the student). Of course, the flip side to any act of civil disobedience is to accept the punishment of the act by the powers that be. That kind of behavior, followed by a suspension, would be a more legitimate and compelling story that this example of childish and churlish behavior.

I showed this video to my teenage sons, and it's clear to them that the asshole's behavior was wrong, and wouldn't be tolerated by me or their mom. Raise your children to do the right thing, with pride, and never give up.

What a bunch of bratty kids. They were obviously trying to undermine the teacher's authority.

Yikes. You, as a former teacher, think it's okay for a teacher to pull a chair from under a student in an act of anger and agression? As a teacher myself, I KNOW that with teaching kids must come saint-like patience. I never, in 5 years of teaching music and sports, yelled or was aggressive with students. I did my fair share of punishing bad behavior (anything from calling parents in front of the child to the child being left out of the fun activities), but never once did I punish out of anger. The thought of verbally or physically atacking a student is unthinkable, as it should be for any figure of authority. Kids misbehave. Kids test limits and try to provoke teachers. That's normal. If you lower yourself to their level, all you end up teaching them is that acting like a child is okay.

Your sons said that the kids behavior was wrong and that you and your wife would ahve punished them, that's great. Parents are free to teach their children as they please, so long as they do not brake any laws. There are plenty of parents out there that think it's fine to yell at kids and belittle them and even physically attack them. That doesn't make it right. Yelling is an aggresive act of intimidation (now speaking as a psychologist, not a parent or teacher), that is not a healthy way to "vent" anger. In actuality, yelling at children does damage not only to the children by teaching them that intimidating people will help them get their way, but it also teaches you the parent that it's alright to lose your temper and makes it easier for you to lose your temper in the future. The kids were acting up and needed borders and limitations of some kind in order to learn how to act. They neede to be punished. They did not need to be physically threatened and yelled at. All that did was help the teacher get his rage out, and that didn't help anyone. It was irresponsible for the school not to publicly repremand the teacher.

Maybe I should have highlighted the text in bold. This is twice I've been lumped in with defending the teacher with direct posts. Let me type this again with some 'bold' action for you.

I'm not trying to defend the guy as he was obviously out of line.

The anecdotal evidence you've provided does nothing for me. I comprehend the reasons why someone would choose to sit during the pledge or during the anthem. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly that the idea of being forced to pledge your allegiance to anything is pretty distasteful.

One more time, if you please....

I'm not trying to defend the guy as he was obviously out of line.


There are lots of folks who shouldn't teach, but that's beside the point as apparently you missed this again....

I'm not trying to defend the guy as he was obviously out of line.

Now we come to the second half of that little pithy line I have to keep bringing up.

I understand (or rather I should say I empathize with) the reasoning behind his actions. I understand why he did what he did. He lost his temper. Have you never, ever, lost your temper? Have you never, ever, over reacted to a situation?

I have. When I did, I was wrong. There seems to always be a better way to handle things, but in the heat of the moment it's sometimes hard to find them. There was no violence towards the student that I could see. Some violence towards the chair as he jerked it out, but it's not like he beat the kid senseless with it. I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but let's try to stay this side of the extreme as to what 'physical violence' pertains to.

Standing for the flag salute wasn't petty to this guy. It obviously was important to the teacher that the kid stand for the pledge. I infer this from the videotape as he seemed quite worked up about it, even to the point of using profanity. This obviously affected his reasoning and it subsequently colored his actions.

Does it excuse it? Absolutely not. He over reacted, plain and simple. He stepped over the line. He reacted poorly. I could go on....

The point is, and sadly, the one I've failed to get across for whatever reason, I've been in situations like that before. I've been in the teacher's shoes (as I'm sure we all have) and when faced with the calm, sensible course of action, I have, for the most part, followed it, even when it was difficult to do. Because of my experiences, I understand and empathize with how he was feeling, but condone the course of action he took.

This was an off handed reply to a few members, who I felt were all up arms about this and specifically trying to directly connect the act of respectable protesting with what these particular kids were doing.

I thought I was quite clear in my proclaiming that these kids weren't protesting at all, but rather fucking around for fucking around's sake.

Dangerous? It's hard for anyone to make that kind of judgement based solely on this one, very public snippet of his teaching career. I don't know if he has a history of this. I don't know the problems he's had in the past. As it stands, I'll simply call it a mistake. A very public and 'potentially' dangerous mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. That isn't to say that he shouldn't be punished, but I think the severity of the punishment should certainly take into account his entire teaching career and not just this one particular instance.

still the teacher should get in shit for making the kids get up when they didnt have to

Yikes yourself. Get over yourself. Your profile says are 21 years old, so I am curious about the teaching experience you mentioned, and your experience as a psychologist, as you call yourself. Though you might be more accomplished than you appear, it seems to me that your age alone precludes much experience that lends credence to your arguments. How old were these kids you taught for 5 years? Were they young adults? Do you have children of your own that age (perhaps by marriage)? Have you any experience teaching students who act like this? And please tell me who advocated (or even mentioned) "punish(ing) out of anger" or "verbally or physically attacking a student" "in an act of violence and aggression"? Can we simply assume from this point that neither you nor I advocate those things?

The only word I would change in my original post is the word "pull" when talking about the kid's chair, because you apparently assume that I meant doing it so that the kid would fall, which any knucklehead knows is assault, which is clearly a criminal act. I said in my post I didn't agree with all the methods of the teacher in the video. The yelling, for instance, heightened the tension. The yelling was wrong and counter-productive, and I've seen no one defending it. He won't walk away from this incident unscathed. As for the chair-pulling, the kid in the video was clearly on his feet and moving forward to stand as the teacher took the chair, and he was not pulled backward, and was therefore not in any danger of being hurt. He stood on his own.

Assuming there was no criminal act, I think taking the chair away is a perfectly fine use of authority in the classroom, and it defines the lesson and the point about expected behaviors, decorum, and authority in class. It's also provocative action, but in a way a teacher has the right and duty to be when a teachable moment appears. It was a stand against the disruption the students brought deliberately to class, where others were there to learn. It was a brave thing for a teacher (and an individual) to do -- teachers get to do brave things, too. I don't bow to the alter of "freedom of expression" at all times, because some words and behaviors are absolutely intolerable and disruptive to a teaching environment, and we actively trust teachers to know these boundaries and enforce them. The teacher blew it with yelling, and did the right thing taking the chair. Such is human nature.

In the specific case of the national anthem, it's all right by me to force people to stand for the event, but not to actively participate otherwise. Standing for the anthem is an act of toleration and respect that is widely expected and taught in society, and these behaviors are deliberately meant to be reinforced in school. Not all personal rights are to be respected in all environments (yelling "Fire!" in a movie theater, etc.). As an adult, the student in the video may choose not to be in a place where patriotic respect is demonstrated. Until then, most choices in school are already made for him and for other students, and there are few exceptions to that rule. Religion and medical necessity are the only two I can think of at the moment, and again, I think that standard of behavior is fine and enforcable. If the kid had a real and thoughtful problem with standing for the anthem, the teacher isn't obliged to provide a chair for that act of conscience. Like I said earlier, had the kid sat on the floor, THAT would have been an interesting situation.

And of course, violence and aggression are inappropriate reactions for a teacher in a class. The yelling may or may not have been intended to intimidate (I think it was). But the teacher's reactions are only part of the story here, and by far the larger problem is the set of circumstances that led to these assholes talking a camera into class with the intent to disrupt and humiliate an authority figure at work. Those circumstances most likely began out of the classroom long before the day of the recorded incident, though the behavior of the teacher in this case clearly added to the problem that day.

As a fellow psychologist, I'm glad you think highly of saint-like patience, but when 16- and 17-year-olds cross over the line of acceptable behaviors, I'm not sure what you suggest saint-like patience accomplishes. What do you suggest it accomplishes? I suggest that both patience and respect have a place in the classroom. Patience does nothing to defend a class from disruption. Respect has to be defended, for a teacher has a rightful place of authority in a classroom, and a school and the community have the right to promote civic respect.

You know...I had a teacher go absolutely berserk at me and a classmate once.
It was pretty funny at the time, but felt shitty afterwards because she retired the next year, heh.

Whooo man, was she pissed.

Okay. Gotcha. Totally my mistake.

I've taught piano since I was 11. I had students of varing ages. When I was 14, I had several students over the age of 30. Up until a year and a half ago, I was still teaching piano. A majority of my students were teenagers at that time. I am barely a psychologist (not certified yet, and I am spending 6 hours a day studying), as I just recently earned my B.A. in psych with a minor in poli sci (from Santa Clara U.). My mother has a PhD in psychology, and I have much second hand experience from her. I do not have a lot of first hand experience in psychology, but I am not uneducated.

"Punishing out of anger" was aparent as the teacher was clearly not in control of his anger and was seeking to punish the students who were misbehaving. Have you ever yelled at a student like that? "Verbally or physically attacking", well obviosuly the yelling was verbal abuse, and the chair pull (whether it was intended to help the student stand, or to pull the chair out causing th student to fall) was an aggeresive physical act. "In an act of violence or aggression", it was obviously an act of aggession. The violence thing is a judgement call I can't make based solely on the video.

The kid was standing, but there is no way to the know intent of the teacher.

I totally agree that the teenagers were misbehaving and their actions and intent were not mearly inapropriate, but openly challenging the authority of the teacher. The teacher was right to want to regain control. The seat pulling is too close to physically threatening, and undermines any trust other students might have had ion the teacher. I was an ass in high school from time to time, sometimes even challenging a teacher's authority. Had a teacher done that to me, I know I would have felt a bit confused and possibly scared.

Well, as you said before, these kids were being defiant. They were not trying to make some stand. Had they wanted to make a stand, there are also better ways to go about doing it anyway. They were just trying to push the teachers butttons.

Yelling is an act of intimidation that is inate. Whether it is taught to a person that it is an act of intimidation or not, if you are yelling out of anger, you are trying to intimidate someone.

Hypothetically, let's put me into that situation when I am teaching. Let's say this kid thinks he can puch my bottons and can record me and make fun of me later at home. I've already told all of the students that I want them to be standing during the national anthem. This student stays seated. I know this sounds cliche, but I would ask him three times, and if he refused, I would send him to the office for open defiance (as this would be a case for those responsible for penalizing students, i.e. the vice princepal or equivalent). If I did not have a good network of support from the faculty, I would have let him sit and simply take away bhavioral points that affect his grade. If his grades didn't matter to him (as they may very well not), I would hold him after class and call his parent(s) to explain what their child had done, and the child's intent. If the parent was of the same mindset as the child, I would have to either resort to some way of taking something from him that he actually does want (detention), or simply allowing him to sit, but to write a report on civil disobedience if he wants to understand why one should sit during the national anthem. Eventually he either complies or he has gotten himslef into a suspention-able spot.

Am I qualified to pass judgment on this teacher? Your call, I suppose. I think that as one who has taught and who yelled maybe once and felt like an asshat later for it, it might be okay for me to pass a bit of judgment.

Both the teacher & the student are wrong. All they proved is the ability to push each others buttons. Both could have resorted to other means to get their point across.

When I was 10 another kid & I got into trouble for secretly tape recording a teacher who was often verbally abusive & highly over-emotional. We meant to record the class, and turn the tape over to our prinipal as proof. We caught halfway through class & got lectured. Of course, the principal had to look into the situation we had brought to light, but nothing changed.
I also recall a situation where a student was punched in the stomach by a teacher who thought the student was troublesome. It was unfounded, the student wasn't troublesome. The teacher was immediately fired & we never heard what happened to him.

I'm really conflicted over that one.

The kids are/were asses. However, I'd venture to say at least half of teenage boys are, from time to time. Most get over it.

I also get the feeling the teacher might be sensitive to the pledge after having fought for his country, or experiencing the death of a friend, relative, or former student for doing same.

In hindsight (always easy) the teacher had a lot of options. Send the kid(s) to the principal. Call the parents of the kids on a cell phone and tell them their kids are being disruptive.

Require the kids to write and deliver essays on the benefits they enjoy by being citizens of the US.

Now for the legal: A court case in California was decided in favor of a student (female) who didn't wish to recite the pledge. I hate to say it, but I agree. If you're screwed up enough, and ungrateful enough to have that attitude, it's inappropriate for our country's laws to require it.

However, many years ago, a friend of mine was smarting off to a teacher. The teacher decided he would get physical with him. End result: With one punch, the teacher was knocked unconscious in front of thirty witnesses. Since he instigated it, no charges were filed.

Not a good way to maintain respect as an authority figure.

The flag's representations change from person to person depending on the perception of the government, civilians, or the United States as a whole at any given time. What if someone has just come back from Iraq with both legs lost to a guy with a bomb who thinks America is trying to take over the world? It's okay for that guy to be pissed off at America, represented currently by warlords with ambitrions of domination. It's okay for someone to be pissed off at America because a federal court case ends up turning on a technicality and the guilty party goes free to act illegally again. It's even okay for someone to see another democracy or republic that has a better way of doing something - let's say healthcare or civil rights - and to be embarassed that we aren't moving forward towards the future of freedom and liberty.

As my forementioned 16 year-old little brother decided (all on his own), he wants to pledge aliegence to the constitution, not the flag. That's okay with me, is that okay with you? It's not ungrateful. It's knowing that it's a lot easier to change the meaning of a flag than it is to change the meaning of a written document which clearly sets the rules and rights for liberty.

Ok I admit the kid was provoking this teacher to say something to them. But I don't care who you are when the National Anthlem is played everyone and I mean everyone should stand and show respect. You may not believe in it or not. But last time I recall you are in the United States of a America. Not some third world country where you can get blown up for less things than that.

We live in America where we do have rights and those rights do protect us from certian things. But those rights are a privlage we have for being a US citizen. You may not like the National Anthlem but you should show the flag that you hope to protect if you some country tries to come over here and cause trouble. I believe it should stay in the classroom and that everyone and I mean everyone should stand. Yes the teacher did go to extreme but I bet those kids where pushing him.

Whether you think everyone should stand of not is totally your opinion, but are you willing to force that belief on someone? Isn't there some irony in that?

Why not salute the constitution, bill of rights, the names of past American heros, and president? Are they less deserving than a piece of fabric that represents our land? Just wondering.

These kids deserved an ass kicking. I mean come on, they miraculously had the camcorder ready to go when the teacher got angry? They went in to that classroom wanting to get something on film. I am completely on the teacher's side. I can't say I would have did anything similar but I'm not surprised of his reaction. If you play with fire, you get burned. Stand up and stop being a smart ass. I seriously doubt the kids were "sitting" because they didn't "believe" in the flag or pledging allegiance. Somebody needs to call the waaaaaambulance for these fuckers. I wonder if they want frenchcries with their waaaaaaamburgers.

I'll bet you're one of the first 10 people in history to compare a high school teacher to fire. Kudos.

When is it okay for a teacher to act like that? When the teacher is a drill instructor.

As I said, I believe it's his right. It's also my right not to hire hire him, or financially support any business I knew of that did hire him.

And yes, it's ungrateful. To these guys, and a lot of others.

<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQAwA0QaPmPa*UBv8*cPJUb3uNg2dBHd2K0phmZem7yiRUYiGeBWVtsVfXNMSzvSaGlekO4Ez3mw9TbCQMXAVkBAxjFLp6oUIbYV!qu4JVJlOMW9yP2jJ54mrdMNa8gk/image_iwo_jima.jpg?dc=4675513886936711506></img>

Aviod Subway, then. My bro is getting hired there soon. :thumbsup:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
**** of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
**** one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."

So...do you, sob, believe that we are a nation under God? Maybe you do. Maybe you are a monotheist. What about the millions of non-monotheist Americans? Should they pledge that they live in a country that states that it exists under one God (originally added by Eisenhower in 1954, as he considered God, the Christian God, to be our most powerful resource)? It's hard to speak for them.

Do you believe that the job of the government is to preserve liberty and justice for all? How good of a job are they doing? You know those brave soldiers were fighting to take a Pacific Island from the Japanese during WW2. The flag that they were raising for them meant that they had taken the island. I remember reading some interview years back with one of the soldiers in that picture, later depicted by that monument. He said they were simply trying to take the island and survive so they could go home.

Perhaps the term "ungrateful" is relative. Maybe I am ungrateful for not joining the Army like I had dreamed of since I was a little boy. Maybe I am ungrateful for protesting when I saw the government moving away from the constitution. But one man's opinion of something being ungrateful, is another man's best effort to be a true patriot. I fight in the best way I can (as I cannot serve in the Army because of a severe heart condition) by being ever vigilent in preserving liberty, freedom, and the rights every human being should be given. Whether I succede or fail, I know I am making the effort.

One man goes off to war to protect America from foreign threats. Another man stay home and tries to fight off people who would poison America from within. I'm the latter man, and so is my little brother.

/End threadjack.

The kids were asses, as many kids are. They misbehaved and deserved punishment for their actions. The teacher was out of line and on the edge of losing control. He was wrong and should be carefully watched for his dangerous temper.

Its not that at all. I think its just wrong that ppl sit there and bitch and moan about standing up and showing respect. I mean I dont understand how ppl can be rude to someone or something that has given them freedom in this country. Its not a matter of force but be respectful and show ppl who do apperciate at it some respect as you would hope they would do to you.



You are doing more than pledging your alliegnece to the flag you are supporting our troops, our past presidents, ppl who have gave there life to the United States of America. And if your family dont have anyone or know anyone in the service or gave thier life for the United States of America you should show respect to ppl who have family or friends that have. It also shows us that are freedom is here to stay. I could care less if ppl sing or put there hand over thier heart they are entilteld to do that but please show respect. Obivisouly these kids just wanted to start shit and they by the sounds of it, it backfired.

While I think he's a crap teacher (The ones that have to shout so much have lost control of the class) I'll still side with him.
The guys in my opinion were looking for trouble, going to school is not about being an individual , its about conforming . Its about sitting down with others and learning what the system wants you to learn.Thats why so many schools have a uniform policy , to help you understand to leave your individuality at home.
This incident would not have raised an eyebrow if it had happened when I was at school in England over 20 years ago, one teacher used to have the habit of throwing one of those heavy board rubbers at you if you failed to pay attention.
Now its all about the individuals rights and the teachers are not allowed to do anything other than ask you nicely to obey them. I would not like to be a teacher today!!

A teacher like that deserves about as much respect as he is willing to give his students. It seems to me that both the kids and him dont have any respect for eachother. Each have their own reasons, I'm sure, but a teacher should have common sense to realize that he is dealing with children. Teenage children, but children. When he reaches the point of yelling the way he did, all respect for him from the children goes right out the window. At that point, in the children's minds, its all about their power over authority. They weild enough power to get him to scream at the top of his lungs and to actually get to the point of using physical force against a student. Any teacher like that should not hold the job. You DO NOT use physical force against a child, teenager or not. It is your responsibility to teach your students the subject you are designated to teach them, thats it.

School is not about conformity. It is about learning the subjects that are provided. A child is sent to school to learn his 3 R's and maybe a little physical fitness along the way. We live in a country and a society of freedom, college understands this and enforces that belief. Lower levels of education are just learning this. A child may be young, but they deserve the same levels of freedom and respect a college student recieves. They are human beings as well, not drones to be whipped into line, adults often forget this.

Well, this is a very good thread. Points for and against both the kid and the teacher but mostly for the teacher I noticed. Me, I would have told the kid "next time you stay in the hall outside the classroom door until after the anthem is finished then come in".

But the bottom line is that it is utimately up to the parents and their influence or lack of it on their children. I am a teacher as well, and unfortunately at my school it seems like the teachers have to be the parents as well.. Many parents "think" their kids are angels and blame us if their kid acts up or gets into trouble. We are "bad teachers" they say. There is no discipline at home and as a result, the kids have no discipline in controlling their words or actions. Nothing gets your juices boiling like a 15 year old telling you to "Fuck off". The point is parents need to spend some quality time with their children and assist them in their roller coaster of life called adolescence.

Here is something I found.

"The greatest deficit in America isn’t the trade deficit. It’s the attention deficit of our children. The average child gets 14 minutes of attention a day from each of his parents. So the greatest thing you can give a kid is time spent listening to him or her."
-– Jack Canfield

My religious beliefs are irrelevant here. However, I believe that it is you and your brother who would poison America from within, with your "Anna Nicole Smith" philosophy of letting others do the heavy lifting, while you sit back and moan.

I live in an area in which it's common to interact with WWII veterans. I saw one today--He got shot down, someone shot his heel off, and then marched him to a prison camp. He was liberated from Moosburg when Patton drove a tank through its gates.

However, you and your little brother don't agree with the thought of recognizing his sacrifice. I find that disgusting.

Sounds like he's well-qualified to spend the next thirty or forty years there.

Um, were you referring to him not serving in the army? Because...
Where did he say that? He partially agrees witht the teacher about the whole national anthem thing. Is it because he disagreed with the government once? OMG, he's doing what your veteran fought for -- exercising his right to express his views about the government.
*cough* No need to turn this into a flame thread.
Furthermore, are you insulting people who work at fast-food restaurants? I work at one. Some people can't get work at other places because of convenience, lack of experience/job skills, or whatever. So get off your high horse and pay some respect to fast-food. We have to put up with a lot of crap from people, and I'm a little touchy about this. No, I'm not being sarcastic; I'm dead serious right now.

Sob.....Go back to the politics board with your insults....they are at least barely tolerated there.....

Do not poison the rest of these boards with your negative attitude....

This whole thing disgusts me. This wasn't about disagreeing with the anthem or anything else political, it was about these kids being asses and getting a rise out of their teacher. While I don't agree with people who don't stand or whatever when the anthem is played (my dad always does this at sporting events), I feel that it is one of the rights we have as Americans, freedom of expression. My husband served in Iraq and lost several members of his unit; my brother in law and a good friend of mine are over there right now. When I hear the anthem, I think of them...the men my husband was friends with that are no longer with us, and the loved ones I know that are over there right now. Sitting quietly and not causing a disturbance, or simply leaving the room while the anthem was played would have sufficed, if this really was about politics. Unfortunately, it's just another example of kids who probably have little discipline at home and bring that into the classroom, which is no longer a place of learning but a state paid babysitter for parents. I feel bad for the students who actually go to school to learn and have to put up with crap like this.

i am surprised at how many people seem to think that pledging allegiance should be mandatory. the idea seems ridiculous to me-- to compel through force allegiance the idea that we should all be at liberty and have the freedom to do what we want to do.

i am probably a lot fresher out of school than most people in this discussion, so i'll just mention how i felt when i was forced to stand and pledge allegiance (and yes, i was forced.)

i felt that my rights were being mocked, basically, by dictating how and when i would celebrate my freedom. i love my country and i want to pay tribute to it, but forcing the tribute (and teaching me exactly what words i have to say to express it) cheapens it, to me. especially for the people who AREN'T being compelled.

the thing that i love most about democracy is freedom to dissent. that freedom has to be respected, especially when we are paying tribute to democracy itself.

The faculty of a public school have no right to restrict freedom of expression. Of all places, a government-run institution should be the one to most strictly defend our rights as defined in the Constitution.

These students chose their methods poorly, but what the teacher by pulling the chair out from under him was not discipline, it was assualt and should be prosecuted for it.

Just out of interest...Im English...If I moved to America and sent my children to an American school ...would my kids be expected/forced to stand up to the American Anthem and Pledge Allegience?

Lin: It differs from place to place, and within schools from classroom to classroom. Most schools would allow you to register an objection to participation with the teacher and/or principal and allow your kids to opt out by sitting quietly. Certain religious groups are routinely allowed to do so. I personally don't see the point of a daily pledge, but neither do I find it objectionable so long as participation is entirely voluntary.

The Pledge of Allegience is read daily over the intercom system at the school where I teach. Students in my class have the option of standing and participating, standing but not reciting, or sitting quitetly for the duration if they for whatever reason decide they do not want to participate. The only requirement is that they be silent during the pledge out of respect for those who do choose to recite it.

The teacher here was a little out of line, but there's not enough here to judge his abilities as a teacher overall. It could be one bad day, or it could be the culmination of a lot of pushing by the students.

The boys here who were secretly recording things and then published the recording without the participants permission were way out of line and deserved severe punishment.

Would you pledge your alleigence to a counrty "under Shiva"? or maybe a country "under Ra, the sun god"? Religion is rarely irrelevant in cases where is is mentioned. It is the right of every American to worship as he or she believes, which includes not pledging alleigence to a country "under God". It's a valid argument.

Heh. So how many years have you defended freedom? And even if you were in the military, whaty did you actually personally acomplish for freedom and democracy? I have two uncles, two grandfathers and generations of men in my family that served America in the military. I've written 3 articles that have appeard in national military publications. Don't assume that the only thing I do all day is complain on a message board.

What does that have to do with anything? My grandfather was shot a total of 11 times in 3 wars. He openly disagreed with Desert Storm before he died. Was he an "anna nicole smith"-american, too?

Instead of blindly following those who would twist and use the sacrafice of that man to selfish ends, I choose to fight and be ever vigilent in the fight to keep America a free and liberated country. Instead of saying, "I agree with everything this administration does because they were elected, and therefore they are always right," I say "What they are doing right now is undermining the rights and freedoms that made America uniqe in it's conception, and has inspired many other countries to adopt freedom and rule of the common man as being the best form of government." Drones folow orders blindly without thought. Patriots pretect their countries from all threats, both foreign and domestic.

I hate to dissapoint, but he is on track to be valedictorian of his magnet highschool. He has gone to the state competition in the schience olympiad (just like his big brother once did), and the reason he's taking a job at subway is to pay for a summer trip to Korea to visit the roots of his tae kwando school. He, so far, is a success in life by every measure I can think of.

Your assumption of his being ungrateful is childish and narrow to say the least. I suggest that you rethink your position on what is "disgusting" or not, but I understand why you don't. I wouldn't want to consider the fact that when I turn my magnifying glass on myslef, I might find some serious errors in judgment either.

I know the kid named Corey. Corey Zappo. He has a huge freaking beard.

That's exactly what these kids need, a drill instructor

You're almost certianally right about that. Those kids have no comprehension of authority or how to show respect to those who deserve it. The problem is that the teacher is not a drill instructor, he is a high school teacher. That means he had no right to act like that. Both parties were at serious fault.

I've been out of school for about a year. At the time I hated it. I was a bad student, and a little dickhead, although at the time I thought I was always right. Looking back, I probably would have gotten a better education if a teacher would have beaten my ass and put me in my place. Teachers have absolutely no power. DETENTION! BOO-YA! That'll teach em!

So this turd got a chair pulled out from under him... big deal. People get blown up everyday. Who cares? I bet he went straight home and whined to his parents. I know that's what I would have done.

"Just out of interest...Im English...If I moved to America and sent my children to an American school ...would my kids be expected/forced to stand up to the American Anthem and Pledge Allegience?"

If I went to England, I'd stand out of respect, but not actually recite anything. To me that seems like the best compromise... not pledging allegiance to anything, and also not showing disrespect to your host country.

I don't know where a lot of you guys went to school at, but this isn't that big of a deal :) The teacher didn't deck the student or beat him into a pulp. The students need to grow the fuck up. The reason I have such a strong attitude on this is because I've recently been there (just graduated 3 years ago) and I remember/know how students push buttons. It's not like the school was making the student give the principal a blowjob or something. Just stand up. Not that big of a deal.

Reminds me of a situation in my Technological Studies class in high school (capstone technology course for seniors). The teacher asked everyone to get out of the lab and into the class to explain a new procedure for our projects or something. One of my friends was working on his project with the bandsaw and refused to leave. He cited the fact he had rights and didn't have to do what the teacher said, he could do whatever he wanted to. "you can't make me do anything." My friend got in an assload of trouble, almost kicked out of the class, the inability to drive to school for a couple of weeks (took away parking pass), and guess what, he didn't do it again. Just pay respect to those who deserve it and get over yourselves.