white pride
 

White pride

Read those two words with no context. What do you think? I bet you think “hate” or at least “racism.” I do, and I’m a white guy. White is equated with hate. The color of my skin is the color of oppression and ignorance. If I were ever to suggest “caucasianism” be celebrated, I would be labeled a bigot. But if I wanted to honor or celebrate any other conceivable nationality, ethnicity or skin color I would be alright.

To me this is racism.

Yet to even suggest existence of racism against the whites, I risk being called ignorant and racist.

If I set up a scholarship fund for Latino students, I would be celebrated. If I set up a scholarship fund for white students, I would be condemned.

Why is this? Because we have the KKK, World Church of the Creator, and other lunies among us? Hate-filled racist groups exist in all cultures. We don’t equate black pride with the murderous Hutus of central Africa. We don’t equate Asian pride with the Khmer Rouge.

Unless we address this issue, groups like the KKK, the Nazis and others will continue to move from the fringe to the mainstream. Because, despite everything they get totally wrong, they are right about one thing – white people are supposed to feel ashamed of their skin. And those guys are the only ones who aren’t afraid to point it out.

Why give anyone the satisfaction of being angry about it. Instead of letting yourself be ashamed feel proud. I don't need a friggen parade or a month or a union to be proud of my heritage, I am proud everyday. My grandparents came over here on a boat from Norway and they struggled to make sure their kids would get an education and in turn their kids would as well. I honor them by rising above the petty PC bull that I see everyday and just live my life. I don't care what others think of me and woe be the person who prejudges me based on my skin color. If they do that's their loss.

I agree. It's unfortunate but true. Years ago while I was searching for scholarships for college I realized that if I was a black woman who was a member of the Baptist Church it would be a lot easier to get some help, but since I am not my options were more limited.

I know that many white people caused a ton of trouble over the years for many, if not all, other ethnic groups. I also know that their oppression lasted for a very long time. For those who have studied history, you'll note that almost every ethnic group, have practiced racism, slavery and even attempted genocide. It was only in recent years that the weapons used to promote these goals became powerful enough for a group to actually succeed. It just happens that the leaders of white cultures had said weapons and not some other group. Now, since the whites were the most recent offenders, the whites are generally considered the lowest of the races, as far as racial morals are concerned.

I've said this way too many times to even mention. Every time I get shouted down. Now, I'm a liberal bastard at heart. But the simple fact is that helping minorities can go too far, and in many cases it has. Simply because I'm a white male, I've been discriminated against plenty of times by black people, Asians, and women. How is that fair?

I am extremely against groups like the KKK, or any group that's intolerant of others because of titles. But when I get called "whitey," and it's not by one of my friends who's joking about it, I can see the appeal of having a group of angry people to make me feel better about it. You're totally right - if nothing is done about this so called "reverse racism" (which is unnecessary. It's just plain racism, it's not a special kind.), "regular" racism - that is, directed against non-whites - will run rampant. A-fucking-duh, people.

I apologize that this is incoherent. It's just that I've tried to explain my viewpoint so many times, and been condemned for speaking it by people who wouldn't hear truth, that it just annoys me to even think about it now.

Oh, and...

Did you mean aren't supposed to feel ashamed of their skin? Or am I missing something.

It stems from the notion that bigotry is somehow only a "white" trait instead of part of the human condition.

You are at fault if you buy into it and accept the guilt they try to force on you.

Yeah, but I don't think any of them are buying into it; everyone else is. It's one thing to know the truth, but if everyone else thinks it's a lie, what good does that do you?

EDIT: I don't feel like being bitched at.

How can you be proud of something you have no control over?

A-fucking-men. This applies to country of origin as well.

"Pride" in race is not so much about being proud how great you are; it's about not being ashamed. Not being ashamed that your skin is a different color or hair is different or accents are different than those of the people on TV who are held up as the acme of success and desirability.

In that sense, you can have white pride; you can simply be not ashamed, feel you have nothing to live up to. Same with black pride, Asian pride, Latino pride, or whatever. It's not about being better, it's about being equal, so that you don't have to look different or sound different to measure up. That's my take, anyway, and the take of most people of color I know who are serious people. There are idiots in any cause or movement, of course.

Although personally, rather than just having white pride I factor in my ethnic group -- Portuguese-American pride, just as others are proud of an Italian heritage, a Dutch heritage, a German heritage, and so on.

Um, I disagree. I think some elements may be true but not on the whole.

For example: In my school, there were scholarships for Descendants of Confederate soldiers and Union soldiers (I thought that was neat), Daughters of the American Revolution (female descendant of the early settlers). Part of the reason for these endowments or whatever is because many of those minority groups are underfunded etc. I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't takle away from anyone. There are many Latinos who are white by the way. Latino is not a race, not even an ethnicity. Most of these are privately funded anyways so what's the big deal?

There are lot's of white pride groups. I think maybe the problem is how you defined it. For example, St Patrick's Day parades celebrate "white pride", and Oktoberfest etc. There is the Sons of Italy, Erin Go Braugh, Croatian student Union, Latvians for Christ, Campus Crusaders etc...all "white pride". I believe the problem is with the term "white pride".

Maybe because it has negative associations (I'm not saying rightly or wrongly) or something so people would be wary of "white pride" groups. But as far as I know, no one's cried foul at the Francophile Club or screamed rascist at the Anglo Student Association.

No, I think it's not as bad as you think it is (IMO). Take another look. I say go celebrate your white pride. Nothing wrong with that. (Unless you're burning crosses on someone's lawn).

I agree, for minorities or whomever to make derogatory remarks (like in the above post) is wrong, just plain wrong. But let's not paint everyone with the same brush either.

White groups that promote pride in their particular ethnicity are all around us, they just don't use that particular phrasing because it's been coopted by the bigots. Chicago has a city wide yearly celebration of Irish people on St. Patrick's Day. The town where I grew up had a Scottish league. There's a Basque club not far from where I sit typing this. I don't hear a chorus of voices objecting to those groups celebrating their heritage.

"White Pride", on the other hand, seems more a celebration of skin tone than any ethnic heritage. There is no "white race," there is merely a group of ethnicities that share some superficial physical characteristics and a common continent of origin.

Racism in any form, from any group is bad. Celebrating one's culture is a good thing. There is no "white culture" so there isn't anything there to celebrate except for one's skin tone, and even that is highly variable.

Not that it matters, but I'm a white woman of English / Scottish descent.

To be honest, I don't really give a shit about my being white.

I don't really care about anyone being proud of their race, but it is kinda annoying to see double standards happen. If someone of any race tells me that their race is better than any other race, I'll just think them an idiot and continue along me way.

My roommate constantly makes racist jokes that are semi-serious and not funny, and I think he's a total fucking tool for it. I also see black comedians go up on stage and say "Wow, there sure are a lot of white people here" like it's supposed to be funny or something. Even more confusing is the fact that people laugh at that. So what if there are a lot of white people at a comedy club? I don't understand the joke...

Yeah, but being Irish or Scottish doesn't have anything to do with race. Those are nationalities.

Caucasians aren't a race?

Using your logic, there isn't any "black race" either. Merely a group of people from Africa or Australia who share a common skin tone. Being Asian isn't a race then either.. It just means that you happen to have skin tone similarities to other people from that region of the world.

I'd say being from Europe is an ethnic heritage. Or in my case, being of Russian descent.

We have this issue because white people are the predominant skin colour in North America, as well as the socially dominant one. It can therefore be inferred that we do not require "power", "pride" or any sorts of funds specifically for those of our skin colour, as it is already king of the hill, so to speak (a fitting term considering the show). If we did not have societies created on racist presumptions, with racism embedded within them, then there would be no need for racial distinctions along any lines. As it is however, people have differing opporunities based either directly or indirectly on their skin colour, and therefore "visible minorities" may require assistance in many ways, financial, moral, etc.

I don't disagree with your analysis, however as clavus pointed out, eventually some/many white people may take offense to being continuously criticized for being racist. Especially those who do not think they are racist and are being discriminated against just because they are caucasian. These people may start to migrate to some of the radical fringe "white pride" groups giving them more mainstream credibility.

From my own experience and travels it seems like these groups are growing in numbers.

There is a difference between not being ashamed of your race and being a white supremacist. The first requires only perspective, the second requires a lack of critical thinking skills.

Anyone who is ashamed of their race is a fool. Besides, no one can make you feel ashamed, it is something that you must choose to do on your own.

The only race I'm proud of myself for being is Texan...

I don't think about it, really. I don't care about the fact that I'm white, or if anybody else is different. What's it matter? If you feel bad because of your skin you're letting something get to you that's worthless, and if others make you feel bad it's your fault for letting it get to you. It's not as ridiculous as hate groups, mind you... but it's getting there.

I'm white, you're black, you're asian, you're latino, etc. As long as we can still breed together we're the same species and that's all that matters. :thumbsup:

Latino is NOT a race. Please stop including it. Neither is Asian. Caucasian describes the region around the Caucasus Mountains in Eastern Europe/Central Asia.

Race is a farce: it is a socially constructed notion based on phenotypes.

Hence the problem with "white", "black". Asian doesn't make sense either as it describes a continent (of or being from). So depending on whose standards and which map, Israelis, Iranians are Asians too. I think "black" is completetly silly. Does "black power" include Sri Lankans? Shit, I am blacker than Condi Rice and Cloin Powell put together so does that make me black?

Heavy D is paler than some Irish I know, is he white?

Is Sammy Sosa black or Latino?

Russians are Asian too (depending on whom you ask, they mostly identified with Europeans to "upgrade".

The traditional race chart: negroid, caucasoid, mongoloid, and australoid is no longer the norm.

The next myth to dismiss: ethnicity...

i was actually told that if i were black or male, i'd have had no trouble getting a full ride. what do you say to that? umm, well, thanks but it's a bit late for a sex change and not much i can do about my skin color...

Well, it depends on where those scholarships are coming from. Private donors can enact any kind of criteria they want to. I don't apply for United Negro College Fund (although who knows, maybe...) or say Americans With Disabilities or Descendants of Holocaust Survivors etc..

I think it really depends on who is sponsoring the scholarships and stuff.

Many schools like to dispense scholarships to certain minority groups because they want to have more diversity on their campuses to attract more students etc... So issuing incentives is a good way to attract minorites to their school. You know, in some countries, they give scholarships to minorities too, *gasp* white folk so that they can have a diverse student body. I think a university in Taiwan and China too did this. Ha, ha, maybe there are a bunch of Chinese sourpusses going, "G*D*mn white kids, taking our scholarships!" or "Man, when I complain about those white foreigners on full rides at Ching Chong University, I get accused of being a racist!"

Kinda funny actually, maybe we're not so different after all...

It's their choice, no big deal.

I'm a black male and I sure as hell didn't get a full ride. Somebody is tossing out some bullshit to you. Listen folks let me tell you something about programs to help black students. Those kids in those programs fight just as hard as you do to get funding to go to college. True enough a few here and there get some nice fat scholarships but if you are a middle class black person like myself you will have just as much trouble paying for your schooling as a white,Asian, whatever...
Everybody in my family that went to college have hefty student loans to show for it. At best we got some books and stuff paid for and that's about it.

EDIT:To stay on topic....
I have no problems with white pride so long as you aren't taking out extra shares in companies that sell bleach. Most of the "white" people I know and am friends with have no problems speaking their mind on race,they have no problem celebrating their heritage. Most of them however celebrate their heritage from where their family hails from traditionally. The Italians I know are very big on this actually. Maybe it's just the WASPs that need some extra loving.

In the end, we are all humans despite our race, creed and color. There will always be those who are misguided hate-filled miserable individuals, and they must be ignored. I don't associate with anyone based on the color of their skin, but rather if they are good human beings. We are all of the same species and must learn to love one another, rather than base our opinions on something as trivial as ethnicity.

I'm not particularly proud of my race or any other. Most people are ignorant and lazy by nature. My race may have produced some people who have done good, but what makes people think there is some association between their successes and their race? How can anyone be proud of an entire race of people? Whenever I see people saying "black pride" and "white pride" and what have you, I think to myself, I wonder if this person knows what it means to be even be human, let alone a member of a certian race. Race should not go past migment. I get the impression that people believe that certian races are good at certian things from birth. Asians (those of oriental decent, or whatever the PC name for it is) are not all good at math. White people are not all preppy dorks that can't dance. Black people can't aren't all great athletes. Give it a rest. The difference between two groups behaviors is based on genetics and environment. There has never been any proof of a certian ethnic group having abilities in any certian area because of genetics.

Sometimes I am ashamed to be an American. Sometimes I'm ashamed of being Christian. Sometimes I'm ashamed of being a human. I'm never ashamed to be white. Likewise, I'm never proud to be white.

Exactly. They are, in addition to being nationalities, ethnicities, or sub-cultures.


I never said anything about caucasians. Caucasians are one specific sub group of whites. My post referred specifically to "white people". Whites vary so greatly in skin tone, facial features, hair, height, eye color, and other physical features that to designate us as all being the same based on some superficial characteristic that varies so greatly is specious at best.

Exactly. There's only one race of homo sapiens, and that's human. African Americans are an ethnicity or a group of related ethnicities. Because they are a minority with a common history and have consistently in our history been the subject of systematic discrimination, it makes sense for them to work to gain equality with the white majority, and celebrating the contributions of others of their ethnic group as a way of promoting the idea that they were responsible for contributing to our nation's history and development makes perfect sense to me.

European, I'd disagree. Europeans form a wide variety of ethnicities. Russian, certainly, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating your Russian heritage. The different cultures that formed this country are all part of what makes it a wonderful place.

western societies ARE racist agaisnt non-white's... this is simply fact, and all white people are a part of the issue, those who are not racist themselves benefit from racism nevertheless.

all people are capable of prejudice.

But racism is the exercise of power upon the basis of ethnicity.

Certainly in America, only the white man can be a racist, because only they have the power to be. Institutional and societal racism against black, hispanic and Native American people all favour and give power to the European Americans.

very many white people are not prejudiced, but yet are still a part of the societal racism.

Most whites in the USA have no idea how much better they have it.
Telling 'em does no good. No idea!

In schools they have a 400 year headstart.
Helping other families to catch up seems fair to me.

Hypothetical question. Say if the white man wasn't racist in the first place, would we have these social problems? Is racism from minority groups towards white people a reaction to the racism of the white man?

I see what you mean, but in the US if you are white, you are Caucasian. I guess Caucasian has come to be a blanket term for all people with white skin tone.

Hmmm, indeed. Interesting viewpoint, and I understand completely, but if we all only viewed each other as humans, there would be no need for anyone, minority or not, to celebrate their skin tone.

Yeah, being European is not really a heritage, but being English or French or what have you, is what I meant.

As I see it, there is racism throughout the various ethnic groups. I believe it is a strong human tendency, and it can be found throughout history. For example, I am aware that in L.A., there is a history of black people having a problem with the Asian (specifically Korean, usually) shopkeepers and being biased against Asians as a group, and vice-versa. If you look back to ancient times and read their writings, you will see many examples of discrimination based on ethnicity. Any time you hold the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others, that is racism. And no wonder it is so prolific, because we are all so different. It's just that cultural values and differences need to be sorted out from inherent abilities or worthiness. If you think about it, it's not hard to understand why a Korean person might be biased against urban black people because they are culturally very different. (This is not an apology for racism in any form, just an observation.) It's human nature to fight and struggle and be angry. Look at gang wars within people of the same national origin - an outsider looks at them and wonders why they are killing their own kind, but to them the differences are very real. Just so with racism, since we are all the human race. There could be observers outside our own species watching and thinking we are absolutely crazy.

As for "white pride" it's just such a shame that some hateful people have taken over the word "pride" and put it to an ugly use. I'm not really "proud" of being white, although in some ways I feel like I got a lucky break, since I'm aware of the advantages that affords me in this society. I am proud of my particular sub-group of European heritage and my family background. There's no reason that has to mean I hate anybody else.

And in answer to the original question... with not context it makes me think of the RA the Ruged Man track - Black & White

Putting together the two words "white" and "pride" make as much sense to me as "banana" and "carburetor". People can make the connections and emphasize them ad naseum, but they are irrelevant to anything that's important to me. My ancestors did great things -- so did yours, most likely. Why does it matter where they are from? Good for all of them. Only a fool is ashamed his skin.

Prejudice is a human frailty, and every suffers from it. Racism is a socio-enonomic act, and in the US you gotta be white to do it, because you have to have the power to yield it. Some parts of white America imagine that they are unfairly discriminated against because of their skin, but their families still have far fewer barriers to get an education and get hired than the families of minorities, all because of active discrimination against minorities. As a white man I've seen and heard that discrimination many times. That's the silent power of racism in the US. Discrimination from a position of power is exactly what racism is and does. Since I'm a white, hetero, healthy middle class man, I don't see how I could be discriminated against in the US.

I'm white and very advantaged as such in the USA -- not every day of my life, but certainly in general. I didn't construct things that way, and I eliminate unfairness when I see it. I wince when I think I've been treated unfairly, but resentment towards the fortunate people around me is no way to solve the problem. As far as race is concerned, it means almost nothing to me. I'm a genealogist, and I like to think of people in terms of their immediate family, with the people they love. Their families do most everything my family does. Some customs seem pretty far out there, but then again the conversations at my Thanksgiving table get pretty weird too. BFD!

Scholarships --everybody gets uptight about scholarships. I think the variety of scholarships for "minorities" is a fabulous thing. They were conceived and funded and lobbied for by people generally thinking of their own families -- their people, their culture, their children -- having opportunities they never had. Blaming the good fortune of others in terms of scholarships makes no sense to me. Should I focus my frustration at my cost of college on the rich white man up the street, whose life has afforded him more "opportunities" than mine? That sounds ridiculous. But we very easily target people who look different from us, usually because we know so very little about them. My sister married a Puerto Rican man, who was very well educated and provided well for his family. He developed a brain tumor, and fought it for a decade, and their family lost nearly every asset they had earned. When it became time for their daughter to go to college, she applied for minority scholarships because she was half Puerto Rican, and those scholarships got her into an Ivy league school she could have never afforded without her minority scholarship. She might have moved ahead of another person financially because of who her dad was, but was it unfair? Should there be more PRs in Ivy League schools?

In response to the original post: It makes about as much sense to be proud of your ancestry as it does to be proud of the fact that you have two arms and two legs. You have no control over it, so you neither gain nor lose character points.

On race and biology: race is purely a social/economic construct without any biological reality. There are utterly no biological divisions within the human species. We are all one human race.

On race in America: the divisions that the U.S. government imposes on people are both biologically and psychologically arbitrary. Consider that the category "Hispanic" includes Haitians (who may be visibly "black" with 100% African ancestry) but excludes Brazilians. One hundred years ago, it was common knowledge that Italians, Irish, and Jews were three different races. For the increasing population of mixed-race people, where do you draw the line?

On using race-conscious remedies of social problems: these are always going to be problematic because the whole concept of race and ethnicity is subjective and fluid. And they will always be divisive because they pit one group against another and their benefits are unmeasurable.

On racism: human beings are born with the innate knowlege that they are embedded within a social network in which it is necessary to form coalitions with allies against common enemies. If you have kids, you know that practically from day one of their social life they form coalitions against enemies. However, racism is not innate, it is learned. Children in mixed groups do not form coalitions based on "race" unless they are taught to do so.

If we want our children to be color blind as adults, we (including the government) should not teach them racial categories.

Having read all of the threads, I still don't understand. Why does race have to be an issue? You would think in today's society, it wouldn't matter. Have we not learned from the past?

Just to add a fluxom - white power? WTF? Why even start this thread? WTF is white power? And why bother? Do you feel so threatened by others? Is this a power to exert over others? Why? Do you not see the BS in the MiddleEast? They use the same excuse to kill our troops (not like me!).

Racial sensitivity for the sake of racial sensitivity is stupid. It's as stupid an reckless race based hate, it's substantially less destructive, but equally stupid. I'm not racist. It didn't even occur to me that I was one of less than twenty white people in a store of probably 150 people till my buddy commented on how 'oppressive' the atmosphere was as part of a humorously lame pun. Race doesn't matter, and if you think it matters and you're within cogent reasoning, you lose brownie points.

You win the thread.

Funny thing is, no matter how many people comment on the TFP about how things should be or the ideal; in the real world, it still exists and it's still an issue.

Ha ha,..I thought this thread was about gay white people. White Pride!!!...Canadian eh!!

People need to grow thicker skins -- no matter what the color.

Things have gotten ridiculous...you can't say anything concerning race/culture/gender/sexual orientation/religion/political affiliation/city,state of residence/ethnicity anymore. (Did I leave anything out?)

I think we as a culture need to grow the hell up and learn to get along. The alternatives are to either always be fighting amongst ourselves or to become so fucking bland & homogenized that we'll die of boredom.

"Minority applicants are especially encouraged"

I saw this on a poster that was trying to get people to be RA's. At first, I thought affirmative action is such bullshit. Then I got to thinking of their true intentions. Maybe it is because there are quite a few minority students on campus. Let me elaborate: the minority students are usually assigned to a floor with other people of the same group, or at least given a roommate that is in that same group.

My reasoning is that maybe that minorities "understand" each other better, and would be better off with an RA of the same ethnic/racial group, even though that is the only thing that separates them from the majority group (i.e. they all speak English). This too is the wrong way to go about things.

I thought my college embraced diversity and the understanding of different cultures. Isn't keeping the students of different race separate interfering with that?

I work with people of many different races/ethnicities (actually, I have trouble because of the multitude of accents) at one of the cafeterias on campus. We don't ever have any problems with not understanding each other, and actually treat everybody equally, because we have the same pay and position. If we went by affirmative action standards, my minority co-workers (by the way, I'm pretty much as full-blooded white American as you can get--as in my ancestors moved here in the 17th century) would get special consideration for raises, promotion, and hiring. However, that would create dissent between workers. Why can't we do this everywhere? In other words, why is race such an important factor???

Umm, it's a scientific term for people with less of a certain type of pigment in their skin (I think it's called melanin). There are 3 basic scientific races:

Caucasian (now called Caucasoid)
Mongoloid
Negroid

EDIT:
Exactly. If a black guy wants to call me a cracker, I really don't care. I've actually been called racist before on the account of just acknowledging race.

And on "racist jokes": I seriously think they're funny. What's the difference between that and laughing about how women can't drive or guys leave the seat up??? What's so wrong about laughing about our differences???

I'll have to agree with the above sentiments. I feel like there's some sour grapes here.

By using "white" as a blanket term, Clavus, you become a part of the problem. I'm pretty "white" myself but I come from a Turkish family. Am I still white? I've been fortunate not to have to experience any of the racism I've seen around me in Toronto. I've been lucky enough not to see anything too serious or violent, but with the large Chinese and Korean population here, I can't tell you how many times I've seen people look down on those folks for not knowing english, or the food they eat. Last year I saw a fight break out between a "white" woman and a native american woman at a subway stop. Guess which one the cops let go without asking questions?

Having seen stuff like this, I feel like I have an unfair advantage because of my appearance. In North America, those who inhabit the upper classes who control the establishments of power (i.e. the Government and Police) are responsible for the enforcement of many racist policies. This sure makes it hard for me to have any sympathy for any concept of "white pride."

For the record, I'm not ashamed of myself for sharing the same skin colour as racists. I am generally ashamed of the human race, though. I think our time would be better spent doing something about the racism around us, than crying over how we're not allowed to have "white pride" day.

This is actually outdated and now considered false and is no longer accepted.

So, Caucasian in reference to race is incorrect. It is still a reference to a geographic region (generally around the Caucasus Mountain range).

From The American Heritage Book of English Usage:

Caucasian and its more restricted synonym Caucasoid belong to the system of racial classification proposed by European anthropologists in the 18th and 19th centuries. These terms refer to a broad group of peoples indigenous to Europe, western Asia, northern Africa, and much of the Indian subcontinent. Caucasian and Caucasoid are in some ways the most problematic of the traditional racial terms, not so much for any offensive character as for their widespread misuse as a synonym for “white” or “European.” Many of the peoples traditionally included in this category, such as the Berbers of North Africa and the various Hindu and Muslim peoples of northern India, have skin color noticeably darker than most Europeans and as such are not usually considered to be white. Obviously they are not European either. Yet in casual usage, in police reports, and even in many dictionaries, Caucasian is often used interchangeably with those two terms. You should take care to avoid this imprecision. 1
Caucasian, but not Caucasoid, is also a geographic term referring to the Caucasus (the mountainous region between the Black and Caspian Seas for which the racial category was named) or to any of its indigenous peoples including Azerbaijanis, Armenians, and Ossetians. When using Caucasian in this sense you may wish to provide an initial context so as to avoid any ambiguity; instead of a Caucasian people you might include a phrase such as a people inhabiting (or from) the Caucasus. 2
More at race. 3


The American Heritage® Book of English Usage. Copyright © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

As you can see, Causcasian is NOT a blanket term for "white" people.

Race is a farcical notion, we need to all get over it.

I'm proud to be me - "white" has nothing to do with it.

I'm more of a lightly browned fuzzy peach.

Humans are very intelligent creatures that have a keen eye for detail. I firmly believe that if everyone on the planet had the same skin color, we could still find the visual detail to segregate ourselves into groups. All you damn blondes are ruining the country! Go back to Sweden, you freaks!

Anyway, religion is back in the Hate spotlight. It's a good strong hate because it gets rid of the pesky skin color thing. The radical Christian blows up the abortion clinic, the radical Jew blows up all the arab children, the radical Muslim kills the infidel. The Mormans often talk down to Buddahs. Don't get me started with the radical Krishnas.

People will always hate each other and the civil folks among us will always make laws to curb the violence. We can teach our children at home to be respectful of each other. Then they go to high school and get ruined. We actually listen to the media tell us reports of all the countrys that hate us and we get paranoid. So we hate them back.

Skin color is just a thinly veiled excuse to be the worse we can be to each other because that's just how we are.

You said you read the entire thread but you didn't read the first post closely enough. He didn't say white power. He said white pride. Two very different things.

They can be damaging when people take the joke as a truth in spite of evidence other wise. When dealing with race if a person hears a joke about blacks being stupid or Latinos being lazy or Jews being greedy many people don't know anyone of these ethnic groups well enough to say "Well that's not correct they all aren't that way." A racist generalization might start out as a joke but it can soon get twisted into seriously thinking anybody in that group acts in that manner and considering racial jokes are typically mean spirited there you have your basis for perpetuating racist thinking even through something as innocent as a joke.

If you think a racist joke is funny. Well that's you and I'd hope you'd have the intellect and maturity not to lump anybody from that group in a negative light because of a joke. But I caution you to be careful if you decide you will repeat something hateful like that because you never know who is listening and they don't have the ability to tell if you are joking and they don't have access to your inner thoughts on race issues.

Because you could say "Hey I was just joking." But they will be less likely to believe you have no malice towards a group you are telling a racist joke about.

"white power!" according to dave chappelle

lol

not surprising really. Pride always blends into the darker reaches of human nature. There are always some who will take a positive idea to the illogical extreem. Where does confidence end, and arrogance begin.

Amen. :) :) :) :thumbsup:

because racist jokes serve no purpose except to enforce racial stereotypes that are at best outdated and at worst exremely insulting.

That is such bullshit.

If whites are the only people with power in the US, I suggest you find me some fucking plantations. You can't think of ways whites can be discriminated against?

Also, to all people who are suggesting I benefitted from being white in America, please explain.

my apologies, i should have been more clear. if i had been black or male and still had all my other achievements, i would have recieved a full ride. and these were not programs designated for black or male students--they were open to everyone. i just happened to be told "what a shame..." during the interview process.

i've got no problems with scholarships open to only a select group, i just didn't apply to ones i didn't fit in. but i'm less than thrilled about programs saying they are open to everyone when they are so biased in favor of a group (ANY group) of people that saying anyone can apply is bs.

as for others working harder (or even as hard), i have no doubt that is true in many, perhaps even most situations. however in my case, i know the person who got the scholarship i was after--my grades and test scores were better by a significant margin and i was involved in more extracurricular activities while they had none. is it possible this person aced the interview and i screwed up somehow? sure it is--but that doesn't change what i was told by the interviewer.

and i feel for you on the student loan thing, i'm beginning to think i'll be paying mine off for the rest of my life! :crazy:

*edit to fix quote tags*

While I don't agree with the sentiment that only whites can be racist because of some power thing(which is most certainly BS), "white" people in this country do have an advantage. It's not a huge insurmountable gap now unlike the past but it still exsists. The fact that if you are a white male between the ages of 30-65 you are the very face of power and authority in this country. You likely will not be subject to a random raised eye of suspicion from the police. You are on average likely to get treated better either knowingly or subconsciously by people in service industries. You will be more likely to be able to be more readily accepted into other circles of society than a minority be it a high powered social club or a private golf club.
White male shows up at a bicycling meet or a car racing event for example. You are just part of the crowd. Latino male shows up at the same event and they are a dot in the crowd.

A little old lady likely won't eye you as a threat if you stop to help her on the side of the road. Large chunks of the entertainment industry is fairly much tailored to the average white person.

And lastly a white person in many people's eyes legitimizes you or your cause. The Civil Rights movement didn't get any good press until white people started marching and getting arrested. Immigrant plight usually gets no attention until a white person gets involved. Music isn't legitimized or considered viable until a white person starts listening. And inter-racial marriages or relationships in many groups in this country are frowned upon UNLESS it's to a white person. I know several Asian people who have said that their family was against them bringing home a black,latino, but white people while not preferred were acceptable as their pressence would legitimize the marriage more. People that come in from foreign countries do the same thing. To "make it" they don't Americanize persay more so they tend to "white wash" themselves to fit in more with the majority.

The list goes on and on. It's nothing major but it's a lot of little subtle things the average white person either does not know about or takes for granted. This might not be your situation. You may have the life from hell and if you do I'm sorry. I'm black and I consider myself fairly blessed so I don't think the playing field is completely tilted against me. But there are certainly things even small that add up to be substantial. A lot of it isn't intentional it's just a product of the society we live in but to think it doesn't exist would not be looking at the entire truth of the situation.

I typically tell people that feel their life as a white person sucks or is just as hard as any minority. Take that same life and turn black or white and you probably will find it significantly more difficult in at least some aspect.

THank you. I finally have someone to back me up on this. You were born there. We're all just humans. I can see if you support your home country's sports teams, or something like that, but going around screaming "OMG I'm [insert nationality here!!!!! Look at me, I'm so great!" makes you look stupid.
I think that this is the first time (and possibly last, judging by past discussions in politics) that I agree with you 100%

Ummm... any paperwork I've ever filled out that asked for race had Caucasian as one of the choices. Never white. That is simply what I was referring to, not whether it is correct or not.


Jesus Christ.

yeah, because the catholics definitely have nothing to do with things....

WASP, another socially acceptable derision of a population segment. Gotta love how things like that are allowed to denigrate certain white people without cause for someone to pause and take a second thought about what they're saying.

simply put, as a white southerner at a conservative university, the ability to be racist is more easily labeled for my: a) region of the country, b) peers at university, c) gender and d) skin tone.

Example: I work at the local country bar. The demographic runs a little like this: 80% caucasian, 15% hispanic, 5% black with a mean age of 28+. Two nights ago, I'm at work (swamper/barback/bouncer) and my GM comes and gets me as we're supposed to throw some guy out that had cussed out one of our female bartenders (who is also the assistant bar manager). She tells us, "it's the black guy with the hat over there" and points at the man. Just so happens there are two black men wearing ballcaps in the specific area she pointed, and the GM mistakenly picked the wrong guy and started grilling him. The bartender lets us know we got the wrong one (the right one was standing 5 feet behind him and was over his shoulder from the tender's point of view) so we end up buying the guy a drink to apologize for our mistake. Then we go and throw out the proper guy and get on with the night. At the end of the night, the bartender tells us the guy we bought a drink for after mistakenly accusing him of cussing her out was bitching about "all you white people discriminating against black people." We had apologized, explained why the mistake was made, and gave him a free drink of his choice. But we were racist because she pointed to an area with two people matching the description we were given and we mistakenly approached the wrong one at first. If anything, the bartender should have given a more detailed description rather than pointing, but she had 10 people in line waiting on drinks and was trying to get things done in the most expedient fashion. But rather than being a simple mistake to the first guy, we were "racially profiling." Our bartender is half-mexican, and damn near whooped his ass on her own for being such a whiny ass and not accepting the apology (though he did take the drink).

Carn, I wasn't chastising you nor making a personal attack, I was trying to be helpful and clarify things. I didn't think my tone was rude or uncivil.

And I have seen that on the forms too. That's the thing. It's so inconsistent. I have seen white, black, Hispanic, Latino, Asian etc.etc.

It kind of shows how ridiculous the whole thing is.

Context look into it.

Many Catholics that I know that aren't part of the other ethnic groups like Italians,Latino, etc...strongly identifiy themselves as such. Hence the whole point of my post being that it's not just "blacks" or Asians or whatever minority of the day that seek to group themselves and express pride.
The WASP thing is because frankly from my observation they tend not to have "pride" movements are get overly assertive about their group affiliation.

Please dear sir explain how saying and implying that maybe the typically non demonstrative WASPs need more "love" i.e. should state their pride in themselves is deriding them? This should be interesting.

Then again a white male between the ages of 30 and 65 could be homeless just as easy as a 25 year old Hispanic woman. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist, I'm just saying that if you're at a specific disadvantage at a job or something, you can take it to court.

By the way, two of my supervisors are black women, one is a man from the Middle east, 3 are white women, and the head manager is a white woman. I can only count 4 supervisors that are white men. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Quick question what do you think the average person thinks of when they think of "president" or "authority figure"?

I'd bet the majority instantly picture an older white male. As I said in that post being white isn't a ticket to the top with no worries. Not at all. But those little subtle things DO exist.

Thats because there hasn't been a black predsident yet, so why on earth would you picture any thing other than a older white male - thats what they have all been. As for authority figure, that is entirely subjective and you will find that the older white male idea will only figure heavily in younger white males who have white fathers (since this is the first authority figure most are used to)

Ah...but I didn't say U.S. president. There are many presidents of companies that are minorities or female. But when the word president is said...one thinks of white male. Even though the word president applies more to than just President of the United States of America.

I'm a young black male and when I think of an authority figure a white male pops into my head instantly. That's the case for many minorities. That's what we have been conditioned into thinking an authority figure is or looks like.

Frankly, white folk are not the global majority, as many would like to think... East Asians are. Hell, China alone contains roughly 25-33% of the world's population. There are very few (in comparison) caucasians living there permanently, even less blacks, and even less white/hispanics. Then there are the other east asian countries (japan, vietnam, korea(s), phillipines, singapore, hong kong, et cetera...) that also have very skewed populations to the native side.

So, since white people are NOT the majority, then technically we CAN be slighted.

At any rate, I agree with amny previous posts... people are too thin-skinned. They need to get over themselves. If you're a cracker, kike, nigger, chink, spic or any other type of person... do those words really affect you that much? A prominent black man recently said (though i can't for the life of me recall who at the moment) that the fact that being called a "nigger" is such an affront to the black community is part of the reason why racism still happens white on black. If black people didn't CARE, then there wouldn't be any ammunition for the lame-ass racists to use against them.

It's like being in junior high and dealing with the bully. If you cry and cringe everytime he calls your mama a name, or hits you on the shoulder, he's going to keep it up ad nauseum. If you just go with it, eventually he'll get bored and find another target. Why can't adults learn the same lessons that kids do?

"What the hell kind of country is this where I can only hate a man if he's white?"

--Hank Hill from King of the Hill... at first he doesn't like his new Laotian neighbor, Khan, because the man is rude, not because he's Asian. But Hank's wife Peggy says that Hank needs to be nice because otherwise everyone will think he's racist (and btw, I'm Asian, and I love this episode).

When I was at the University of Michigan, I was absolutely infatuated with a black girl with whom I'd built a friendship. Anyhow, she and I spent quite a bit of time together...but I always wondered why she never ate with my group of friends. So, one day I decided to go eat with her friends. (In a part of the cafeteria where most of the minority students sat.)

I have never in my life received such a cold reception. Having met most of these people on a person-to-person basis, and having never had any problems, I couldn't understand why nobody would talk to me, or even LOOK at me...unless it was to glare.

Later that evening, my friend showed up at my room, demanding to know why I sat there. Her friends had given her all manner of BS for hanging out with me...because I am white.

Later in the year, apparently forgetting the lessons I'd learned earlier, I asked her out...and she told me no...because I'm white.

And yet I'm to believe that I'm the racist.

Yeah, I'm sorry about that..

I think it's ridiculous too, but I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

Yeah I've seen that at my school too. Funny thing I've noticed is that only Arabs and black people seem to do that.

*sigh* You know, sometimes I wish there was a a "reset" button. We seem to be going in circles.

One word can sum all this up. Majority. I could take the easy route and say that its ironic and this is how you get to pay for your ancestors mistakes, but I won't. Celebrate your heritage. I don't care. But realize that the minorites in this country have it just a little bit harder that you do due to predjuices of all kinds whether it's social, financial, etc. Nobody gave my black ass any help either. My parents are middle class and I had to claw my way up the ladder just like my white counterparts. Nobody holds their purses a little bit tighter in the elevator while you're in there, (yes that still happens) automatically expects you to fail in life, end up in jail, or end up on welfare with no future to speak of. Just realize that all the recognition that us minorities get is just a little bit of recognition and support from those in our own communities when otherwise we'd get absolutely no recognition at all if it were left up to the majority.

That is like my saying if you are a black man, you are the very face of good basketball players in our country.
First of all it, like you said, LIKELY. I am also, LIKELY to be viewed as an oppresive white man by "ethnic minorities."
I work in the service industry, and can agree with this to a certain extent. Certain "ethnic groups" are proven to tip differently. The same could also be true for teenagers, in a restaurant (regardless of skin pigment) they tend to tip less than adults.
Again, LIKELY. I would say this is not LIKELY to be much of an advantage to me, as I don't have enough money to get into a private golf club. I would also wager that being an "ethinic minority" is just as LIKELY to help you as hurt you when trying to get into a "high powered social club" especially one interested in "diversity." (usually meaning diversity in skin color, not ideas).
Kinda like if I went to a Tejano Bar, I might seem out of place. Growing up I went to a basketball camp in the inner city. I was a "snowflake amongst the asphalt."
Little old ladies potentially regard all men as a threat regardless of skin color. Then again, some studies have shown that black men on average commit more violent crime than white men. I am not saying this justifies the hypothetical woman's prejudice. I am not saying the report is accurate or fair. But it is understandable from my prospective, that a woman could be in fear of a threat preceived or real without her being a racist.
Does this include rap music? It is estimated 80% of rap music (I think it is fair to say, usually preformed by black artists) is bought by whites. Does it include BET or movies like Soul Plane television like the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air (i've seen every show!), in Living Color, Moesha (sp?), the Wayans Bros. movies/show? Does the Cosby show count? How about professional sports? Does the NBA or NFL count as tailored for the average white person?
I could argue that it was a natural result or more people being involved rather than white people involved. Regardless, I don't think this is really a strong point to argue that I have an advantage. I mean, look at Jesse Jackson getting money from NASCAR. Considering the NAACP and the congressional black caucus, I could argue that black people often get special considerations that white people don't.
I think that is a perception issue.
As if some black or latino families don't disapprove of interracial marriages too. This one goes both ways.
I don't really understand this one. If someone comes from Ireland, and they try to assimlate into American culture, are they "white washing" too (or are they already white)? I may be missing your point here.
I would say there is a much stronger correlation with people's bank accounts then the pigment in their skin.


The things I have responded too, are not meant to attack your postition/point of view. I just wanted to offer you my views on the things you posted, since you took time to answer my question, I thought it only fair. Thanks for reading mine.


Overall, I agree with MLK. "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Retsuki03,

Nice response, I really enjoyed it! I don't agree with everything you say but I really liked the way you disseminated your responses in relation to the previous post. I think it was well done. Just my opinion. Nice job. [smiley face]/

While people are still discriminated against because of the colour of their skin , I think we will need 'positive discrimination' to counter balance it.I have no problem with it at all.When/if we ever all get on an even playing field THEN is the time to start dismantling the system.
As for being able to celebrate being white...I never understand why anyone that is white would need to . Our culture if thats what you mean , sure , but as others have said I think we do so already in loads of different ways , we just call it by more apropriate names. "White pride" why do we need to be 'proud' of being white , do I need to be 'proud' of having two legs ?
Im white , thats just the way it is . If I was black and had racism thrown in my face regularly then Id feel like standing up and shouting about being proud to be black . But I have no reason to while I live in the society that I do.

The driving issue here isn't in the numbers, majority vs minority, it's about who has the power. There have been numerous cases brought to court that claim discrimination based on the fact that an individual is a white male. They lose every time. The most recent I can think of is a white male that sued a gym that only allows women. He lost precisely because he is a white male. A woman can go out and start a female only gym, but a white male cannot because they are the demographic group that maintains power in our society, from government to corporations to social clubs, etc.

I think Suave gets at this point well (although he omits gender from his point), and it is held up in courts today.

And they are but this does not invalidate that positions of power are often equated with being white and male.

I didn't say it was right or wrong just stating the reality of the situation. If an average person on the street views the white male as oppresive then there might be a reason there. Not saying it's correct or valid but it should be something that should be addressed rather than dismissed of "I don't know what they are talking about." Because nobody considers themselves oppresive or a beneficary of a stacked system.

That statement applies more to just the restaurant business. Take being followed around a shoe store because they think you are going to steal something while the unassuming white male in the corner really might be shoving stuff under his shirt.

I don't recall ever saying this applied unlaterally across the board and every white person benefits from it. I seem to also recall saying it might not apply to you(or the reader). But suffice to say if you increased your fiscal level you would still be a white male. Even if I were filthy rich in several places I would not be permitted access based on something I can not change.

Yet for a person in a majority group this typically is not the norm but the exception. For a person in a minority group if they venture outside of their little tight knit community to any event of size they find themselves in that situation much much more often.

Then would it be right that people would be more prone to thinking a white male would be more likely to steal money from the company they work for since most white collar crime is commited by white males? No. This woman would be treating a person differently based upon their race solely and not knowing anything about the person they are treating in that manner and that is the very definition of racism. And it is also very insulting.
Using the logic of "a lot of activity A is commited by people of category B so I will distrust everyone that is in category B" We shouldn't have many male CEOs,soccer moms should be followed around grocery stores,and I should be looking over my shoulder at the white guy behind me because he might be a serial killer.

How about most of the CBS,NBC,and ABC line up for the last 10 years,the majority of the radio stations,fashion magazines,most of the movies released every year etc... Yes. That I don't think at all is incorrect that the majority of entertainment is set up and geared towards white tastes and sensibilities. It's the largest market with the most desposible income so obviously this would be the primary target audience the majority of the time. But this is part of the little things that I was speaking of earlier.

Again I direct you towards the civil rights movement and the growing movement of immigrants rights in this country. The civil rights movement was fairly large(numerous large protests had already occured) but it wasn't until white northerns got associated that it started regularly making the news and becoming an issue for national politics.

It's not a perception issue it's fact.
Jazz and blues did not become viable enough for mass marketing until white youth picked up on it. The same thing for rock and hip hop. Rap had been around pretty heavily ever since the late 70s and early 80s. But it exploded when white youth started listening to the music and then music companies realized that they had a music genre to exploit but only UNTIL that happened. Just as the whole latino "explosion" from a few years back. One would think Ricky Martin,Mark Anthony etc...were brand new names and faces. They weren't they were around for a long time and had very successful careers in the Spanish music scene but white America picked up on it and they went big and you then had music companies signing latin artists left and right to exploit the next big trend.

Did I say it didn't? No. The Asian/White thing was an example. However you seemed to miss my point so I'll restate it.
Even in those families where interracial dating or marriage is not accepted(black and latino included)it's MORE acceptable for a person to bring home a white person than another race in many cases. Prime example of this is my old boss. She is Mexican. She had a white paramour who she broke up with
and starting dating a very nice black guy(successful,decent looking chap). She eventually broke up with him not because she did not like him but because of the pure hell she got dating a black man and her family even stated flatly that if she was going to mess around outside her race she should at least be with someone who could open more doors for her. Which if they bothered to look at her beau past his skin color they would have seen the guy for a very successful and stabile individual. These statements were not made concerning the white gentleman she was dating just a few months earlier. Again not saying this is the rule and in every family and social group it's this way but it's something that is noted and not all that uncommon that even in fairly elitist(racially at least) that white is ok if they have to "stray".

Ok you are in Texas think really hard on who is the largest group of immigrants to this country and how they conduct themselves concerning assimilation of the culture.

As I have already stated there are other things that have nothing to do with finances that cause that. There are simply too many "coincidences" to be explained away as being fiscally linked. The black person dressed nicely and from a high income bracket being made to feel like they are a crime suspect when a white person from an obviously lower income bracket aren't. The latino that is cutting his own lawn is asked if he wants to make an extra buck cutting a lawn because somebody assumed he was the hired help,while the white neighbor next door doesn't get the same question.

No problem I didn't take it as an attack.

While I agree with King's sentiment it likely will never happen as this thread has demonstrated people fail to see the other little subtle inequalities amongst the races and sexes(white/black, latino/asian, black/latino all races and cultures have their little conflicts with one another) that are a very stark reality for many people.

I'd like to chime in on this one with a supporting anecdote. My SO is of Japanese descent, and I've heard her mother discussing with her and her younger sister the exact order of acceptance for various ethnic groups her daughters might date and marry. Japanese is best, but non-Japanese Asians (and there's a specific order for various Asian groups) are also good, whites are acceptable if they are of good quality, Mexicans distasteful, and black boys out of the question. The irrationality of this rank-ordering is so bizarre that it's more acceptable for her daughter to be with a white woman than a black man.