Submit to bag searches?
 

This thread is borne out of the current Best Buy thread...

Do you submit to a bag search on the way out of a store?

Some places you have no choice. For instance, if you belong to a Sam's Club or Costco, it is in your membership agreement that you will submit to them, but I've noticed more and more places are trying it.

The local Best Buy as well as Target are trying to get away with it by stationing people at the exits and asking to see reciepts, in bags, etc. and the people meekly submit.

Do they realize that there is NO LAW that says they have to?

Once you have purchased your merchandise, it is YOURS and unless they suspect theft (with a damn good reason), they can't stop or search you.

When I found this out, I stopped letting them look through my stuff.

Now I just glide past the line of folks waiting to get searched, and when the guy at Best Buy or Fries says, as they inevitably do, "Sir?? I need to check your reciept!", I always reply, "No Thanks!", with a big cheery smile.

So do you submit?

I didn't really think about just saying no.

I wouldn't want to cause trouble and say 'no', but if there is a line I guess I will just walk on out now.

For the most part it is to check to see if you have something that you didn't pay for. On the other hand, at least at Costco they are also checking to see that the checkout people didn't screw up. I don't know how many times they asked me "did you get 2 of this item? and 2 of this item?" 90% of the time I did, but the once or twice that they caught the error before I got out the door, and they refunded me the money right there. I was actually glad, because then I didn't have to go back and explain that I did not buy multiples of this item. :thumbsup:

Interesting they do it at my best buy. I'm going to start saying no, I'll see what happens.

Hm...interesting.

I answered "yes, I really don't care," but now I'm not so sure.

Once I buy something, it's my property, right? And I have a right to privacy. I'm not easily embarassed, so it wouldn't bother me to have the guard know I bought 3 Russ Meyer DVDs (do they even sell those at Best Buy?), but it might bother someone else. And what's the point, anyhow, if they have security cameras and magnetic theft detectors anyhow?

I think I'm going to start saying "no thanks," too, when they ask to see my receipt. Not that I will ever shop at Best Buy anyhow.

I'm starting to get downright paranoid about information privacy now. If you want discounts at the grocery store, you have to fill out an application for a frequent shopper card so they can harvest data about you. Every store seems to ask for your zip code (I don't even refuse to give them one, I just give them the wrong one to fuck with them). Honestly, it's enough to make me start paying cash for everything and refusing to give out any information to anybody. I have a T-shirt I made that has a bar-code on it that really does read "consumer" if you scan it with the right kind of machine. I hope I'm being ironic and not prophetic.

I learned that I had this option not too long ago, but I'm still working up the guts to protest these searches by rejecting them. I'm just worried that one time when I tell them no the guy will think he has the right to detain me or something. I don't normally have that kind of time to waste.

Disclaimer:

Please check your local laws to make sure this is true in your area (including the municipal law in the city where the store is located). While this should hold true for most places, I don't want people to start getting tickets or arrested for violating local laws.

Where I live, you need "probable cause" to detain but the only cause they need is that you "may have" concealed or stolen something. There doesn't have to be any proof other than the employee's word. They can also detain you for "a reasonable amount of time" which around here is about 20 min. They can then let you go with a thank you for your time. There is even a state law which prevents people from suing the employee who was acting "in good faith" to protect the store's contents. For these reasons, I just let them search. I know I don't steal and it isn't worth the fight when the laws in place already work against saying no.

This hasn't happened here yet besides Sam's where it's necessary as you said, but I will most definitely tell them hell no. I haven't shoplifted since my teens (and it wasn't right then) and I really don't like being treated like a criminal when i just spent money at your store. I worked for Sam's for a while and they have loss prevention videos that teach the cashiers to "search" your things to avoid "out in the open" theft such as reboxing DVD players or other expensive items. The have security cameras at most every store now taping you while you shop. If the cashier isn't doing their job and catching shrink they shouldn't bother the customer without just cause. It's not our responsibility to help their inept Loss Prevention.

While there may be no law requiring that you submit to a search, you have to realize that there is no law requiring them to do business with you. You can certainly tell them to go to hell when asked to let them search your bag, and there's nothing they can do to make you. What they can do is refuse to allow you in the store again. You have to be the one to decide if the affront of the search is worth losing the ability to shop there.

As for myself, I submit to the reciept check/basket check at CostCo. At CostCo it is part of the membership agreement that you sign, so if you're shopping in there you've already agreed that it's OK. Target and other similar stores where I live do not have people checking bags at the exit, I'm assuming that this is something that's happening in larger cities at the moment. If I were stopped at the exit to the local Target (or similar store) I'd undoubtedly refuse, and take my business elsewhere.

What you really don't have to worry about is being accused of theft or detained should you refuse. I've worked in retail security, and the rule is pretty much the same everywhere: Unless you see someone concealing unpaid for merchandise and are positive that it is still on their person when leaveing the store you do not stop them. The main reason for this is simple, lawsuits. A false accusation leaves a business open to civil suits, and the plaintiff almost invariably wins in those cases.

Ok I have to admit. I never realised that they did not have the right. But now that you mention it... it makes perfect sense for me to say NO!

There are not many place here in canada that do this search but I have had it happen at costco. It's like losing a bit of freedon in order to keep prices low... I am not sure that is worth it.

Meanwhile Safeway Grocery Stores are adding new unmanned check outs ... where we scan all of our own groceries... and pay with debit or credit cards...

What odd is that it works so darned well ...

Why is it a big deal if you have nothing to hide?

I've got a lot more important things to worry about in life...

This isn't one of them.

Nope.

Over the years, I've only really had one problem and it was from a record store goon who was simply trying to intimidate me.

You just have to show a little confidence. It's not like you're in the wrong, but if you're sure of yourself, chances are you can avoid the issue all together. Even if they do stop you, it's only a matter of showing him what's in your bag, which is what you were going to do anyway. So, view it as a time saving measure rather than a personal refusal to submit to a public search if that makes it any more palatable.

Most stores are implementing this policy based on two assumptions. That the public is largely ignorant of what they can and cannot do. That the public is more than happy to make small concessions in the name of convenience. Right now, they just want to see your receipt and what's in the bag....tomorrow....well, you get the point.

I'm not paranoid (maybe I am as I've made that same declaration twice in the last 15 minutes), but I see no reason to grant them access to my things, and they are mine as I just paid for them, simply because they want to. If they can come up with a good reason for wanting my zipcode/telephone #/date-of-birth and for pawing through my stuff, then fine, I'm willing to listen. Until then, hands off, chucko.

The one good thing I can say about Wal*Mart (other than their ridculously low prices *cue commercial) is that I've never encounted the "receipt" guys there. It's usually just a nice old fellow who wants to get me a cart and wish me a nice day.

I personally find it insulting, plus I have the right to say no. Hell I can refuse search to cops, why would I submit to the authority of some minimum wage chump?

Here they simply have signs right before you walk in saying things like 'By entering this store you accept that we may search your bags upon leaving' or something to that effect. I'm having trouble seeing how we have a right to refuse a search when we leave, when we accept that agreement when we enter? Isn't it fair enough for them to ask to search our bags in that case, and if we refuse then aren't we breaking our part of the deal?

Couldn't you just wear a sign saying that "By granting admitting me inside your place of business you automatically waive your right to bag searches."

I mean, turnabout is fair play, right? ;)

It would probably only work once, but it would work once.

You are on their property. And its private property. They can ask you to leave; they can ask to search your bag. They can do almost anything except detain you (unless you’re breaking the law, but even then they have to follow certain guide lines)

However, it’s not considered a theft until you leave the property. Until that time you have the option to return to the store. There is no way for them to know if you actually going through with the theft. Or return the item in question.

I was a security officer for 8 years (both contract and private) and in my time I have pulled a few duties at a Target or Wal-mart. And in all those times. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen anyone hide a stolen item in the same bag with purchased items. They tent to hide them on their person before they get to the cashier. What are they going to do on the way to the front door, take it out and place it the bag??

For me, it would depend on the attitude of the person at the bag check and the inconvenience, pending that it's not a shopping "club" agreement clause or legally permissible. I'm probably not going to tell a 60 year old lady at Wal*Mart to go to hell just to prove my point, etc. I'd probably ask some pointed questions to demonstrate my position, and then "condescend" to allowing the clerk to check my stuff. However, if it's something that is really bothering you (and I am in complete endorsement of the nip it in the bud stategy) you might try inserting a personal object into your bag. What if a pair of apparently-dirty underwear just happened to not fit in your pockets anymore, so you thought you'd stash them in the bag. Or a used handerchief with a little mucus and some blood on it? A large dildo or something with Elmer's glue? I mean, eventually they'd probably just get the point, I'm thinking....

It's possible that such a sign doesn't mean anything. For example, a lot of trailer tractors and large trucks have signs that say "Not responsible for damages due to (whatever)", but they are, in fact responsible for damage they inflict because of their actions. The point of the sign is to deter ignorant people from filing a lawsuit against the company.

Screw that. It's not considered theft until I've stolen something. If I haven't, which is the perspective I think 99% of us are looking at this from, then I don't care what they think about when it is or is not theft. Especially if they don't have a reasonable cause to be suspicious of me.

That's actually one of the big reasons why I think it *is* worth it. So many situations that we have today came gradually thanks to people sitting idly by as their freedoms were stripped away one minute step at a time. Only by standing up to these gradual acts of disrespect can they be stopped or, at least, slowed down.

You've got the first half right. They can ask you to leave. However, once the sale is final (you've got a receipt by this point and the cashier has your money), that bag and its contents are YOUR property, not theirs. Thus, they do not have a right to search it, regardless of the fact you are on their property. As one person pointed out, they could tell you not to return, but I wonder 1) how likely that is and 2) how effective a store like Best Buy would be at enforcing such an edict.

And one other comment about the sign, I'm actually pretty *positive* that it doesn't mean anything. A contract, at least as far as I'm aware (and IANAL), requires a one on one agreement (remember, corporations are considered persons, so this is not an exception). The sign does not fall under the requirements of a contract and, thus, has no force of law.

This is kind of how I felt about it at first, too, but really it's the principle of the thing. I guess for me it's 1) the slippery slope argument, and 2) another teensy erosion of individual rights and privacy. It's not such a big deal by itself, but what if everyone started doing this? It just sets up an atmosphere of microscopic observation that I think lends itself to subtle forms of social coercion.

Why would anybody care? Of all the places to make a constitutional stand on rights and freedoms, I'd prefer to choose someplace more significant than a retail store, for God's sake.

I love the juxtaposition of headlines:
"Iraqis Vote in Large Numbers Despite Death Threats and Terror Attacks"
"Americans Throwing Hissy Fits and Taking Courageous Stand Against Retail Stores"

Honestly, if I refused the search, and they told me to never come back, I would happily oblige. In their quest to get rid of "Demon Customers ", they will have gotten rid of a very good one.

I remember when I was a kid, I went to the movie theater with my grandma. She always brought candy in her purse, because the prices at the theater are ridiculous. Well, one time, they actually asked to search my grandma's purse. After a few minutes of bickering back and forth, she submitted, and they confiscated all of her candy.

Even at age 9, I knew that there was something wrong with that.

Granted, I think that this is an extreme case. If I am leaving best buy, and they want to check my bag, I don't really care as long as it is quick. But I can see how it is the trend is starting to lean toward "guilty until proven innocent." One thing is for sure, any stores that want my phone number can kiss my ass.

It takes what, 30 seconds?

I can think of much larger and more important battles to commit my energy to...

In Britain the don't seem to do random searches, I have had bags searched but thats when I set off th alarm systems, never actually tried to steal anything but Cashiers find it hard to remove all the tags.

'nuff said.

Granted, there are more pressing civil rights violations going on in the U.S., but it's these little things that gradually chip away at our sense of freedom until we get used to it and don't notice how that freedom has been eroded. What kind of privacy violation is important enough to care about? I'm not saying we ought to stage sit-ins in front of Best Buy, but I'll certainly either casually refuse a search, or vote with my feet and my pocketbook and take my business somewhere else.

Hmmmm, I'm going to start saying no now and wsee what happens too. It's not like they can arrest me.

CompUSA did exit bag checks when I worked there 10 years ago. It was to make sure big ticket purchases were paid for properly, and to check the serial numbers of the larger items against the serial numbers on the receipt. After verifying everything was good to go, the guard (contracted security guards, not store employees) would initial the receipt or hole-punch it with a special punch. If you tried to return something and the receipt didn't have either the initials or the punch, you had to come up with a really good explanation why. I don't remember it being a big deal then. As far as I go, I don't really care. I have nothing to hide, I don't see a store making sure I'm not stealing from them as being an invasion of my privacy, I'm not going to make a big deal of it. I have my bags X-rayed and checked every day coming onto and leaving my ship, and submit to all sorts of other checks and inspections, being in the military and working in secure areas. My personal laptop has to be turned on (to ensure it's not a bomb) and the etching on it shown to the Master at Arms (to verify it's mine and not stolen). I understand why that's necessary and I'm used to it. I submit to that or I don't bring it on board the ship. Fight it if you must, but I think if Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin were shopping at Best Buy they'd pony up the bags and not say a word.

Now, if Best Buy employees knocked on your door at your house because they saw an empty carboard box from one of their TV's on your curb and demanded to see the receipt, then yes, by all means, that's unlawful. Or if they stopped you on the street while you were listening to your iPod. That's what the 4th Amendment is all about. But while you're in their store, you play by their rules or you shop somewhere else.

-Mikey

Ive never really had a problem with it

Contrary to what several have said, a store doesn't have the right to search you for no reason.

Hell, even the COPS need a reason to search you.

And a sign on the door doesn't mean squat, since you haven't agreed to be searched in writing.

Also, it isn't that big a deal (not like I scream and rant when they ask), it's just one small indignity that I don't submit to anymore.

I said no once. They would not let me leave the store. I demanded to speak with the manager. He gave me the "If you have nothing to hide why not let us look?" I told him that if he wanted to charge me with shoplifting he could call the cops and have them search my bags. He declined, I left. It wasted half an hour of my day but I was in no hurry and was feeling like being a dick so it was OK. Next time they asked I said no and kept on walking and no one stopped me.

The bag check is even more aggrevating when your in a rush & they expect you to wait in line to be checked. Forget it, I wasted half an hour in line at the till already.

Bill couldn't have hit this one on the head any better. It doesn't matter that it's Best Buy. As a matter of fact, it doesn't matter who it is, federal, state, local gov't, the guy down the block or some faceless corporate giant, the fact is you should stand up for every transgression against your rights as an American citizen. I had a government teacher once tell me that our rights are a lot like our muscles. You have to exercise them regularly or they atrophy away. You have to use them or you will lose them.

I'm not saying that by standing up to Best Buy is on par with our founding father's throwing off their 'chains of tyranny,' but it's a start and it gets you moving in the right direction.

Secret made a fantastic point as well. The sale is final and the property that once was theirs is now yours. Yours; like your wallet, your car keys, your sweater, your glasses and you've got the receipt to prove it. Yes, it's their property you're standing on and they can ask you to leave, but they can't sift through your stuff just because.

Now see, that's exactly the kind of thing I would hope for in a situation like this. At that point, you've got justification to press charges of false imprisonment on them. I don't really know what kind of lawsuit you could work out of that, that's a job for the sharks..err, I mean lawyers. It would make a damn nice story in the local paper though "StoreX unlawfully detains paying customer." That's a perfect way to make your statement about the rude and invasive policy. :thumbsup:

If you didn't do anything wrong then what's the problem? You DO have a privilage to shop at these stores. If you don't like i, don't shop there.

Bingo.

The manager tried bullying you into compliance, but he knew he had no legal grounds for doing so.

Should the day come when I too am asked to comply "or else", I'll take the "or else" option, namely, call the cops and have them search my bag for stolen merchandise.

Considering that the store doesn't have a witness or tape showing me shoplifting, no manager in his right mind will do so.

I don't know that I would really give a shit unless I was in a hurry to be somewhere and I had a shitload of bags to go through. However if I did let them because they thought I was stealing I damn sure would demand that a manager be present and the cocksucker apologized when they were done.

This is the first I have hear of this. I can't believe that is legal, because people might think they're theives trying to take your bag away (but I guess they would probably have their uniforms on). I would not submit at all, especially if they just saw me check out and they're asking for my receipt. What did I do? Steal a candy bar?? :confused:

I voted that I really don't care.

I understand that a customer has no legal obligation to abide by these searches. On the other hand, if me shopping at a store that I like, such as Best Buy, required that I be a part of an agreement where my bag is inspected upon leaving, I would go along with the agreement. In the name of preventing theft, and consequently keeping prices down, so be it.

I'm sure people have seen signs at businesses that say something to the effect of "This establishment reserves the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason." Why doesn't a place like Best Buy have the right to refuse service to people who refuse to comply with bag searches? Or is that completely illegal? I've never signed anything at these business that have a type of sign like I mentioned, either. And I would personally find it adequate if this information was plainly visible at the store entrance, as opposed to me having to sign something.

Well, whatever. I don't really care all that much. :)

I guess I'm just a cranky sob, but I always refuse. The one time they wanted to detain me, I offered to call the police on my cellphone for them. My wife was detained once for picking up a pair of sunglasses on one display and setting them down in another. Store detectives only saw the first event. Same response from me, put up or shut up. You call the police, I'll call the police, or we walk out of here ... your choice. They always back down.