FLEE BEFORE MY RAY OF DEATH!!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

bigoldalphamale · 08-03-2004, 09:31 AM

HAHA!!! c'mere kitty kitty...

re:

'Raytheon Co. have developed a weapon called the Active Denial System, which repels adversaries by heating the water molecules in their skin with microwave energy. The pain is so great that people flee immediately.'

linkie:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science....ap/index.html

Cynthetiq · 08-03-2004, 09:36 AM

for those that don't like to click links...
(please try to add them to your thread along with the link when starting threads)

Quote:

Military readies directed-energy weapons

(AP) -- A few months from now, Peter Anthony Schlesinger hopes to zap a laser beam at a couple of chickens or other animals in a cage a few dozen yards away.

If all goes as planned, the chickens will be frozen in mid-cluck, their leg and wing muscles paralyzed by an electrical charge created by the beam, even as their heart and lungs function normally.

Among those most interested in the outcome will be officials at the Pentagon, who helped fund Schlesinger's work and are looking at this type of device to do a lot more than just zap a chicken.

Devices like these, known as directed-energy weapons, could be used to fight wars in coming years.

"When you can do things at the speed of light, all sorts of new capabilities are there," said Delores Etter, a former undersecretary of defense for science and technology and an advocate of directed-energy weapons.

Directed energy could bring numerous advantages to the battlefield in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, where U.S. troops have had to deal with hostile but unarmed crowds as well as dangerous insurgents.

Aside from paralyzing potential attackers or noncombatants like a long-range stun gun, directed-energy weapons could fry the electronics of missiles and roadside bombs, developers say, or even disable a vehicle in a high-speed chase.

The most ambitious program is the Air Force's Airborne Laser, a plan to mount a laser on a modified Boeing 747 and use it to shoot down missiles.

At the same Air Force Research Laboratory in New Mexico, researchers working with Raytheon Co. have developed a weapon called the Active Denial System, which repels adversaries by heating the water molecules in their skin with microwave energy. The pain is so great that people flee immediately.

"It just feels like your skin is on fire," said Rich Garcia, a spokesman for the laboratory who, as a test subject, has felt the Active Denial System's heat. "When you get out of the path of the beam, or shut off the beam, everything goes back to normal. There's no residual pain."

A Humvee-mounted Active Denial weapon is expected to be given to all services by the end of this year for evaluation, with a decision about deployment expected by the end of 2005.

But the idea of using directed energy against humans is creating debate fueled by deaths allegedly caused by Taser stun guns and the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners -- which put the military's respect for human rights under a microscope.

Some experts believe the use of directed energy will be limited by international law and treaties.

"Although it seems like it would be more desirable to disable rather than to kill them, the problem is there are all sorts of treaties in place that limit how you can disable noncombatants," said Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute, a defense think tank. "It's kind of perverse, but sometimes the backlog of old laws can get in the way of being humane."

Military officials believe the intended uses of the Active Denial System do not violate any international laws or treaties and do not cause any permanent health problems.

"You can rest assured that with this system, when it finally is deployed, we will be very, very clear about what the intended uses are and what is clearly outside of bounds," said Marine Corps Capt. Daniel McSweeney, spokesman for the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate. "It's not intended to be used as a torture device. That goes against all the design intentions and parameters."

Research into side effects of weaponized directed energy began in the late 1990s at the Air Force's Brooks City-Base in San Antonio. Researchers began by reviewing studies of radio-frequency energy involved in military communications, radar and other technologies, officials say.

Human testing of the Active Denial System began after researchers concluded it could be used without permanent harm. More than 200 volunteers -- including some in their 70s -- from various military branches and government agencies were zapped with the system, on average about three times each.

The results showed no lingering health problems, officials say.

"This type of device doesn't penetrate very far," said Lt. Col. William Roach, chief of the radio frequency branch of the Air Force Research Laboratory.

But the fact that studies on directed energy's human effects haven't been released to the public has some outside the government worried.

Dominique Loye of the International Committee of the Red Cross has pleaded for more disclosure of directed-energy research and independent investigation into possible side effects.

Directed energy may cause "new types of injuries we're not aware of and may not be capable of taking care of," Loye said. "The message we try to put across is: 'We understand some companies are investing money, so maybe it will be worthwhile for you to start the investigation as early as possible and not to invest millions and millions and then 10 years down the line find out your weapon will be illegal."'

The weapons' developers, on the other hand, pitch them for their lifesaving potential.

The pinpoint accuracy of a laser could eliminate collateral damage caused by missile explosions, the argument goes, and stun gun-like weapons could save lives in hostage or bomb-threat situations. Directed energy also has the potential to explode roadside bombs or mines from a distance.

"You're dealing with the ability to pre-detonate the majority of improvised explosives that are used right now," said Pete Bitar, president of Xtreme Alternative Defense Systems, an Anderson, Ind., company that is developing a rifle-sized directed-energy gun for the Marines.

The device works by creating an electrical charge through a stream of ionized gas, or plasma.

Bitar says it could be tuned to target the electronics of a vehicle or explosive device, or tuned to temporarily paralyze voluntary muscles, such as those that control arms and legs. The involuntary muscles, like heart and lungs, operate at a different frequency.

So far, this and a handful of similar weapons are only in the prototype stage. Production models, if approved by the military, would not be ready for a few years.

The device being developed by Schlesinger's company, HSV Technologies Inc. of San Diego, will operate similarly to Bitar's, except the electrical charge will be created by an ultraviolet laser beam, rather than plasma. He, too, says the device is designed for non-lethal purposes only.

"Later on, as certain agencies or law enforcement gets involved in this, and they see the need for lethality, I'm sure that can be developed later," Schlesinger said. "It could induce cardiac arrest, for example. But that is not our patent, and not our intent."

Still, that potential is sure to make opponents of directed energy skeptical.

"It's encouraging that the U.S. is searching for more humane weapons," said the Lexington Institute's Thompson. "But it's very hard to convince other countries that our goals are ethical."

the_marq · 08-03-2004, 09:37 AM

I read an article about this technologhy about a year ago. The author took a blast to the back.

It may have been in Wired or Scientific Amercian.

denim · 08-03-2004, 12:19 PM

I wonder how this can be abused if/when it gets in the hands of criminals.

Glava · 08-03-2004, 12:37 PM

Temporary but intense pain sure beats intense pain and death. Any weapon that can repel people while keeping them alive should definitely be pursued by US military contractors.

KellyC · 08-03-2004, 01:14 PM

a lot of sci-fi stuff have became a reality lately...

Cynthetiq · 08-03-2004, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Glava
Temporary but intense pain sure beats intense pain and death. Any weapon that can repel people while keeping them alive should definitely be pursued by US military contractors.

until those people aren't being repelled and must be killed, ala the Moros attackers in the Philippines.

Quote:

The Colt Model 1911 was the product of a very capable person, namely John Moses Browning, father of several modern firearms.

The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thomson (inventor of the Thomson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power.

raeanna74 · 08-03-2004, 02:05 PM

I would think that boiling the water in the cells of your skin would cause a mild burn like a sunburn. I mean, freezing that water causing frostbite - wouldn't boiling it cause a burn? I realize it's temporary but makes me wonder. Also I'm curious what it would do if it was directed at a target that was unable to move. Could it kill with extended exposure? That would be extremely painful death. As was mentioned, what will happen if it gets into the hands of criminals? I can see the advantages but yet there's a lot of questions as to how this actually works. Interesting.

Fremen · 08-03-2004, 05:26 PM

I have a bad feeling about this...

rat · 08-03-2004, 05:46 PM

Government funded, intesne pain but no lasting burns or signs of duress. Hmmmm...Could think of a few things this could be misused for, among them being obtaining "confessions" from people.

The potential for abuse of this device in the hands of a government agency defies my ability to put it into words.

Mephisto2 · 08-03-2004, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rat
Government funded, intesne pain but no lasting burns or signs of duress. Hmmmm...Could think of a few things this could be misused for, among them being obtaining "confessions" from people.

The potential for abuse of this device in the hands of a government agency defies my ability to put it into words.

That's just silly.

Abu Ghraib didn't need any high-tech weapons to torture prisoners. Neither did the British during Internment in Northern Ireland.

Governments, or "rogue elements" (whichever makes you more comfortable), won't go using expensive equipment to force prisoners to do things they don't want to do; confess, break, provide information etc. They'll just continue to use good old fashioned, and cheap, methods.

Mr Mephisto

basmoq · 08-03-2004, 08:21 PM

it's a real possibility, but not the most practical weapon due to a large lack of focusing ability, would suck in a crowd if you wanted one guy...

DelayedReaction · 08-03-2004, 08:39 PM

Quote:

The device being developed by Schlesinger's company, HSV Technologies Inc. of San Diego, will operate similarly to Bitar's, except the electrical charge will be created by an ultraviolet laser beam, rather than plasma. He, too, says the device is designed for non-lethal purposes only.

This isn't technically correct. The ultraviolet laser beam ionizes the air stream and creates a low-temperature plasma. The electric current (a few milliamps) travels along the path of the ionized air and stuns the subject.

It's pretty cool technology, and would definitely become an amazing tool. Imagine sweeping this device across a rioting crowd, stunning them all in quick succession. The ionized oxygen (ultraviolet lasers ionize air by knocking electrons off of molecules; oxygen requires the least amount of energy) also apparently has a really cool green glow to it.

Another version they're developing will have a range of over 2km, and is designed for anti-vehicular use. I think they should up the amperage and use it to fry incoming missiles and fighter planes.

skier · 08-03-2004, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raeanna74
I would think that boiling the water in the cells of your skin would cause a mild burn like a sunburn. I mean, freezing that water causing frostbite - wouldn't boiling it cause a burn? I realize it's temporary but makes me wonder. Also I'm curious what it would do if it was directed at a target that was unable to move. Could it kill with extended exposure? That would be extremely painful death. As was mentioned, what will happen if it gets into the hands of criminals? I can see the advantages but yet there's a lot of questions as to how this actually works. Interesting.

They said heat the water in your body, not boil it. If you put meat in a pot of boiling water, it will cook. If you put it in ~60 degree (celcius) water, it'll just get hot. Imagine putting your hand in hot water- say just warmer than most hot tubs. Until you are acclimatized to the heat, it is very painful to keep your hand in there. The microwave guns work on the same principle. It's like you just jumped into a really really hot hot tub. No damage, just a lot of pain.

billege · 08-03-2004, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rat
Government funded, intesne pain but no lasting burns or signs of duress. Hmmmm...Could think of a few things this could be misused for, among them being obtaining "confessions" from people.

The potential for abuse of this device in the hands of a government agency defies my ability to put it into words.

Yeah, I'm going to have to second Mr. M here.

Give me a phone book, a rubber hose, a few naturally occuring pressure points and my thumb, and you will be telling me things you never thought you would be. To think that this is especially dangerous in the torture application is bunk. It's no more dangerous than anything else that can hurt people.

What it is though, is a way to avoid another Kent State. We should all be gratefull for nonleathal options.

We have many ways of killing people. The more options we have to stop someone from doing themselves or someone else physical harm, without causing harm, the better.

Let me put it another way:
Would you rather see Rodney King restrained the way he was? Or would you rather he was verbally warned, then dropped. While he was down, writhing in pain, he's handcuffed without causing him physical harm, the cops aren't hurt either. An hour later he's feeling fine, sitting in jail trying to explain his actions.

MaGlC_MaN · 08-05-2004, 12:50 AM

i can see it now..

The new "Your hand or someone elses?" Sexual Device

look for it in the pain fetish section today!

raeanna74 · 08-05-2004, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by skier
They said heat the water in your body, not boil it. If you put meat in a pot of boiling water, it will cook. If you put it in ~60 degree (celcius) water, it'll just get hot. Imagine putting your hand in hot water- say just warmer than most hot tubs. Until you are acclimatized to the heat, it is very painful to keep your hand in there. The microwave guns work on the same principle. It's like you just jumped into a really really hot hot tub. No damage, just a lot of pain.

If this is the case then what about someone on drugs. Often a 9mm isn't nearly enough someone already bent on attack and especially on drugs. If this is only as painful as jumping into a tub of ALMOST scalding water then the criminal could potentially get used to the pain. You can force yourself acclimate to an extremely hot temperature that isn't actually doing damage to your skin. This would HAVE to be hot enough to scald or it wouldn't be effective in my opinion. I would like to hear the specifics as to what temperature the water is raised to. I don't imagine anything less than damaging temperatures being about to stop an individual. Especially one on drugs or drunk as can be the case.

bigoldalphamale · 08-05-2004, 05:06 AM

its supposed to be much hotter than a hot tub. the only reason is it not currently used is because it has induced cardiac arrest in several of the test subjects (rats, chimps, whatever).

Fire · 08-05-2004, 09:31 PM

Cool- almost a phaser - very damn coll indeed- now where's my flying car......

DelayedReaction · 08-05-2004, 10:33 PM

I think the microwave device is designed more for crowd control that subduing an individual. Given that the current model is supposed to be deployed from a jeep, they probably won't be using it to go after individual perps.

The laser taser stuff, on the other hand, would definitely work against almost anyone. It doesn't matter how many drugs you've taken when your muscles are frozen.

hiredgun · 08-07-2004, 09:52 AM

all I can think of are those awesome slug guns from the car factory scene in Minority Report...

analog · 08-07-2004, 09:56 PM

Please. Torture has existed for forever. This will not make it any easier, quicker, or more effective.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fire
now where's my flying car......

Yeah. Been waiting on THAT lie for a LONG time.

Esco · 08-07-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by analog
Please. Torture has existed for forever. This will not make it any easier, quicker, or more effective.

Yeah. Been waiting on THAT lie for a LONG time.

And those kick ass kitchens.

08-03-2004, 09:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
bigoldalphamale Loser	FLEE BEFORE MY RAY OF DEATH!!! HAHA!!! c'mere kitty kitty... re: 'Raytheon Co. have developed a weapon called the Active Denial System, which repels adversaries by heating the water molecules in their skin with microwave energy. The pain is so great that people flee immediately.' linkie: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science....ap/index.html

08-03-2004, 09:37 AM	#3 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	I read an article about this technologhy about a year ago. The author took a blast to the back. It may have been in Wired or Scientific Amercian. __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

08-03-2004, 01:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	a lot of sci-fi stuff have became a reality lately... __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

08-03-2004, 02:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I would think that boiling the water in the cells of your skin would cause a mild burn like a sunburn. I mean, freezing that water causing frostbite - wouldn't boiling it cause a burn? I realize it's temporary but makes me wonder. Also I'm curious what it would do if it was directed at a target that was unable to move. Could it kill with extended exposure? That would be extremely painful death. As was mentioned, what will happen if it gets into the hands of criminals? I can see the advantages but yet there's a lot of questions as to how this actually works. Interesting. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

08-03-2004, 05:26 PM	#9 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	I have a bad feeling about this... __________________ Google

08-03-2004, 12:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	I wonder how this can be abused if/when it gets in the hands of criminals.

08-03-2004, 12:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
Glava Betitled	Temporary but intense pain sure beats intense pain and death. Any weapon that can repel people while keeping them alive should definitely be pursued by US military contractors.

08-03-2004, 08:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
basmoq It's a girly girl! Location: OH, USA	it's a real possibility, but not the most practical weapon due to a large lack of focusing ability, would suck in a crowd if you wanted one guy... __________________ "There's someone out there for everyone - even if you need a pickaxe, a compass, and night goggles to find them."

08-05-2004, 12:50 AM	#16 (permalink)
MaGlC_MaN Insane Location: Tennessee	i can see it now.. The new "Your hand or someone elses?" Sexual Device look for it in the pain fetish section today! __________________ Bye.

08-05-2004, 05:06 AM	#18 (permalink)
bigoldalphamale Loser	its supposed to be much hotter than a hot tub. the only reason is it not currently used is because it has induced cardiac arrest in several of the test subjects (rats, chimps, whatever).

08-05-2004, 09:31 PM	#19 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	Cool- almost a phaser - very damn coll indeed- now where's my flying car...... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

08-05-2004, 10:33 PM	#20 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	I think the microwave device is designed more for crowd control that subduing an individual. Given that the current model is supposed to be deployed from a jeep, they probably won't be using it to go after individual perps. The laser taser stuff, on the other hand, would definitely work against almost anyone. It doesn't matter how many drugs you've taken when your muscles are frozen. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

08-07-2004, 09:52 AM	#21 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	all I can think of are those awesome slug guns from the car factory scene in Minority Report...