Is my friend a prostitute?
 

This is not nearly as juicy as the subject head would suggest. Sorry!

I have a friend who's in law school. He is looking for a church to go to so he can make connections for future business. He's asking us to figure out which church would have the richest clients. :rolleyes:

Now, if he were looking for a church because he wanted to start going to church, and just incidentally considering which church might be good for business, that'd be one thing. But he's just looking to use this as a career ladder, which seems to me to be a bit mercenary and unethical - pretending to be there for the god stuff when you're really just scoping out clients.

Is he a bit of a whore, or am I being overly-idealistic?

P.S. He also wants ratbastid to teach him to play golf as a career-builder, but that seems okay to me - you're not pretending to play golf the way you're pretending to believe in god. Different or not?

Total whore, and the best way to find a rich congregation is to look for the fanciest church, then cruise up and down the parkinglot durring services and make an inventory of all the fancy cars. The more expensive cars, the better potential for clients. And don't make the assumption that old Detroit steel (like cadilacs and lincolns) mean big money. Shoot higher for bavarian cars.

he's a salesman, marketing his goods and learning his trade...

Re: Is my friend a prostitute?
 

Yes, and Yes. :icare:

I dunno, I see nothing wrong with finding and utilising advantages.
There is a line to not cross, where it becomes taking advantage of other individuals...and one needs to understand the difference.

But in this case, I think it's pretty harmless.

I don't think thats a good idea to go to a church to find ppl.
He is being kinda sneaky, hes not sleeping with every body in the town.
Tell him to try the casinos!!!!!!
There a great place to meet and talk to ppl like at the poker tables or what not.

Whore.

Sorry to be so blunt, but...

Whore.

Can Ratbastid teach me how to play golf? I'm horrible.

As for your friend, some people go to church to make friends, others because they like the music or because they just want to get out. His reason's aren't much different and most christians (besides the wierd crazy ones, (old people (score, 3 parenthesis))) are happy to have you there. He doesn't mind, noone else will mind, the bible says god doesn't mind.

I think he's safe from smiting.

It's not the denomination per se -it's the location. Find a good church with nice architecture and in a good location. Believe it or not many people go to church for other reasons than belonging to a faith.

Sounds like he's doing a good job of his job.

Prostitute in terms of money, sure. I wouldnt hold it against him/her.

I'm not sure any one of us is really in a position to cast the first stone in situations like this.

I can teach you how not to break 100 if you'd like. That's really my area of expertise, when it comes to golf.

I enjoy golf on its own and use it quite often for business interactions. Here are some words of wisdom from my grandfather.....

"The only bad golfer is a slow golfer."

As long as you have a good time, keep your cool, observe proper golf etiquette, and keep up the pace, nobody cares what -- or how poorly -- you shoot.


....and yes, joining a church to find clients makes one a whore.

I agree very much. And I think that it is wrong.

ARTelevision

What do you mean by this?

I'm not sure any of us is in a position to judge someone else.

You are very right ARTelevision thanks for reminding me.

Yes, he's a whore...

(then again, I didn't get past the part where she said he was in law school)

:)

There was this guy, He was raised as a Jew. His Dad fixed shoes. They lived in Germany.

His Dad decided to move to a better shoe place.

This new place was really pro-whatever, so Dad decided to become whatever. The family became whateverites. They walked the walk and all. This guy seriously questioned the move. He wanted to know why the family abandoned their core beliefs. His Dad had no answer.

The guy here is Adolf Hitler.

Use religion as a tool to connect, and you will connect on the wrong level.

why not. if by accident he actually gets a message into his head... that's not a bad thing.

so long as he's not disrupting the congregation it shouldn't be a bad thing. We have people who come here to network... what difference is it if the community is real or "internet"?

so long as the rules are followed, he will make his own reputuation which will speak for itself.

Wait, is he *only* going to church to network with people? Or has he decided to go to church anyways and is looking for a church with richer people?

If he's not lying to these people and trying to take advantage of people or handing out resumes or business cards to everyone he meets, I don't really see a problem here.

My school offers a Business Golf course that teaches a person basic golf skills and etiquette, but mainly focus's on conducting business deals/negotiations, etc.. If ratbastid didnt want to teach him golf, he could suggest a similar class :)

He's a whore and he's being socially dishonest/manipulative, but not in an uncommon way. People do alot of lightly psychopathic things when they are trying to advance their "careers" or work on their "business" (or get a "date", heh) : in North American society it is viewed as normal, so other than a bit of indignation from people if he ever explains why he is acting the way he is, he shouldn't have many problems.

Having high ideals that you try to reach is a good thing. Failing to reach them is expected. Being indignant just because someone else fails to measure up to your own ideals is counter productive.

Practically, you should advise him that telling others about such a secret (that he only goes to church in order to pick up hot ch^H^H^H clients) could lead to it getting out, which could get in the way of future career choices.

People go into churches all the time with ideas other than worship or fellowship. Whore? maybe. Honest not at all.

forget church go to a synagogue heck my lawyer and doctor are jewish and my accountant and so on

Hrothgar: all the more reason to go to church, all the synagogues are taken :D

I would say he's a whore on that level, but it's gonna take a lot of whoring himself out like this to get started I'm afraid. You need relations, connections, a social network if you're ever gonna start up a successful lawyer out of yourself.

So you're being too idealistic and he's a whore :)

wait, isn't that called "networking"?

It sounds like smart networking to me.

I belonged to the University Club in NYC,not because I enjoyed the people's company, or the University Club had so much to offer, it was all about networking.

Church, especially those with rich parishoners, is a good a place as any. He's not the one on the pulpit doing the preaching, so who's he really hurting?

The last parish I belonged to, most folks went, not to hear the word of God, but to check out what everyone else was wearing, and to gossip about who wasn't there, plus it was a good excuse to go to brunch afterwards.

Well the thing about that is, That guy should be good enough not to pretend to believe in god to make money.

When I think of the saying "The Man", I think of him, the only person I've ever heard of that would pretend to have faith in something so huge just to make some money.

When has church ever been used for any other purpose than worldly gain?

Has he actually said that he doesn't believe in God?

Pretending to play golf is tough, that requires time, lessons and devotion to the game to get it to the point where you'd want to take the game out for networking events. Church is much easier.

What, you think most people go to church because they belive?

Many people go becuase their parents made them, so they make their kids go too.

Many people go for the social structure.

Many people go for the built in purpose in life, it's easier than finding one one their own.

Many people go for the built in rule set, IE: do this and god will love you. That's easier than deciding what right and wrong are by one's self. Don't have to make those pesky decisions when your religion will do it for you.

My point is this: people go to church for a lot of reasons. Not everyone even knows why they really go. Your friend just said it out loud.

Is your friend trying to take advantage of a pre-arranged social situation? Yes.
But so are the old ladies that go for the church social after mass.

Does this make him a whore? I agree with ART; I'm not qualified to say so.

Even if one is going to judge this plan of his as a bad one, some would say that maybe church will rub off on him.

Who's to say? Maybe God's plan is to call him to church because one of his flock needs legal services and He's guiding your friend to him. Who's to say that's not it?

Who's to say that your friend might not get into some pro-bono stuff with the church just to "look good," and actually end up doing some REAL good. Even accedentally, he might learn something that'll change his life.

Thing is, you never know.

Your and our judgements are facile and meaningless.

Tell the man your concerns, if he still sees no incongruity, then it's all good.

It's _his_ 'soul', afterall... So where do your judgements fit in?

Jesus got pissed off and tore through the temple because it was being used for business. Sort of a statement about the renunciation of worldly gain in favor of spiritual gain. That said, the Church seems to disregard this ideal anyway. So, I doubt many of the people would be offended if they found out, especially in a rich congregation.

well, he is going to law school...

I'd say he's learning fast.

Ah - most of the people at the church are just lambs waiting for the slaughter anyway. They will be gettting screwed by the church, why not get screwed by this guy at the same time. What better place to find victims than a church? I don't think I can think of a single better place other than setting up a tent outside the ER.

On the other hand, if he figures that he will have to spend XXX amount of time in a church environment anyway and assumng spiritual fufillment is static across all churches, then why not pick one where you can maybe make some good clients in the process.

I gotta agree with the first part; my parents made a deal with me when I was a kid that I'd get to rent a video game for every Sunday I'd go to church and stay awake. I believe in God and I'm a good person, but I'm not a real church-goer.

I agree with the second part, too. I think his reasoning for going to church for clients is pretty piss-poor, but nobody said he can't pick up on something that may prove to be more important to him in the long run.

Perhaps he is planning on donating more than 10% of his income to the church where he makes his contacts? Hmmm...seems a bit fishy but he's really only being honest about it.

People use social organizations every day to make connections for more than social reasons. Church to most people is more than a social organization but in this case that what he's making it out to be.

That's all I needed to hear. He is going to be a liar (oops - lawyer), that sorta says it all. Do I agree with his tactics morally, no. As a business person, I guess it is an interesting idea. If you are not going to believe/follow any particular religion, might as well make it work for you in whatever way you can.

I woul dhave to say yes, he is a whore. But I fail to see how this would comes as a shock to any one. C'mon, the guy's in "Law School". What did you expect, a saint?:rolleyes:

Good point, but a bit all encompassing. The church has many uses but finance has become primary to the overall function.
Your friend is pretty much doing what most church goers do, in one way or another, no big deal.

I'd be very suprised if he were the first one in there with this idea.

Well, he is becomming a lawyer so he is already on a one way route to hell. lol....

Really, I think it is a rather smart idea. Perhaps he will find something more than just his networking potential.

all I can say is, yes he's a whore, but he's a damn smart one...

Whore. Total whore. Brillint, forward thinking, and I have nothing but respect for him, but still a whore.

This shit goes on all the time. Not that it makes it right, but it goes on. I went to a church once where a guy who owned a Dodge dealership went. He quite often parked a Viper on the sidewalk in front of the building as if it were on display. There were plenty of others besides him inside peddling their wares.

I'd say he's a user, and leave it at that. He wants to use others to gain success, and he wants to use you and Ratbastid to help him get into position to meet his goals. A good user will unhestatingly ask anything of anyone, without shame. He wants you to help him find the right church, help him learn to play a social game so he can fit in...

The problem I have with users is that most of them see _everybody_ in light of what they can get from them. I've only known a few who can separate friends from business. I tend to keep people like this at a distance because, somehow, although they find much to ask for they don't often find much to give back.

There's nothing in the Bible that says, "Thou shalt not use." But you can definitely look at a person and say, "That person sees people as individuals," or "That person sees people as means to an end." Then decide whether that's a good person to have in your life, or not.

As for judging -- sure, we should. all the time. What we owe to others is to make informed, thoughtful judgments. I can look at a friend who's killing himself with drugs and say, "Well, he seems happy and he's made his decision; who am I to judge." Or I can say, "He's out of control, and I'm getting him into treatment." I might be right or wrong in either case. But if I honestly believe that he needs help, _I'm_ a whore, sliding through life just giving people what they want instead of what they need, if I decide it's too hard to try. I might end up losing a friend or getting people angry at me. But if I honestly believe it's the right thing to do -- and am willing to constantly reevaluate what I'm doing, just in case -- then I've got to.

If you want Fellowship, go to church, if you want to network join a service group. Your friend is a whore.

I don't think it's such a big deal. As long as he will be providing actual services and not cheating old ladies out of their savings, I don't see what the problem is. It's not like this would be the first time that God is being used for making money. After all, quite a few churches do it non-stop, not to mention television evangelists.

Besides, he's in law school.

Sure he's a whore, but he's not the only one. Many people go to church for many different reasons. I'm sure not all of them necessarily revolve around God.

Rich, churchgoing people need lawyers too....

Yeah he may be a bit of a whore. I don't think he's making a wise move.

I would never do business with a Christian brother from my own church unless I was doing it in the mindset of it being for charity. Not expecting payment or payback. I have seen my Dad do business with church members many times and more times than not he does not get full payment or they complain about having to pay. The other members go into it with the midset that my Dad is a "Christian brother" and will GIVE them his services or materials in the attitude of charity. You can do business with someone who goes to church but don't do business with co-church members. It's just not wise. He should find other avenues of meeting people. Town organizations and political functions in town or school functions. Church is a dangerous place to do business. I guarentee he'll get burned. (I worked for a church in their parochial school - worst job I ever had, worst pay, and worst treatment ever.)

I suppose you could turn on Benny Hinn when he's at your house, and kinda let him figure out the implication from there.

I wouldn't say that behaviour makes him a whore, as much as it shows what a phony manipulator and greedy opportunist he is. It also shows how completely clueless the guy is.

I am a lawyer myself and attend a pretty wealthy church (no, I did not select the church for networking reasons, which personally I find reprehensible). What this guy will find is that his attending a church solely for networking purposes will actually work against him. This is for a combination of reasons, including the fact that (i) most wealthy people already have a lawyer, (ii) many of the existing, long-term members of the church are probably lawyers themselves, and (iii) people entrust important legal matters (at least the matters your typical attendee at a wealthy church would have) with someone they know VERY WELL (not just some guy you sat next to one time in chuch) or someone they are referred to based on the lawyer's reputation as being very skilled (not a brand-new lawyer straight out of school). Perhaps just as important, a lot of wealthy people are very sophisticated in business matters and in dealing with people in general. They will smell your naive little friend's phoniness and hucksterism - as this stranger starts hitting them up for legal work shortly after he meets them - a mile away. So, not only will they not hire him, but they will "run" in the opposite direction and probably warn others about him.

Having said that, let me also make one other comment. The greedy and phony guys I went to law school with, who talked like your friend about having all of these wealthy people as clients and having a sophisticated law practice, are all doing crappy ambulance-chacer work for the complete scum of the earth. They are also the ones who have had bar complaints made against them. I hope your friend grows up before this fate is bestowed on him.

Here's a parallel, and frustrating, situation I've encountered. In a (rather large) North American metropolis I've lived in, there is a (very bad) t-shirt shop. It sells "black" t-shirts. Shirts that say, "It's a Black thing, you wouldn't understand," and "Fight the Whitey" and other things that I find racist, but that are currently vaguely "OK" to present anyway.

If the shirts and the business were judged strictly on their merits alone, the shop would probably go out of business. Shoddy workmanship, never open on time, trashy rude counter staff, cheap materials.

But there is enough sentiment in the "black community" in this city that "all new black businesses need to be supported" that, even if they don't agree with the shirt slogans, many people buy enough to keep them in business. "We want to give them a chance to succeed." I hate it.

Are those t-shirt makers "whores" or just good businessmen? Are they "inappropriately" playing the race card, just as this budding lawyer is accused of "inappropriate" playing the soul card?

Similarly, in a choir I was once in, I experienced the following. A soprano was very enamored of the works by a particular living composer, a modernist from her home land. She worked for several years to convince the conductor to put one of his pieces on our repertoire. Ins and outs of season after season went along, she was a successful mainstay of the soprano section, reliable and a strong singer.

Finally, the conductor included that guy's music in a concert. She was elated, and even more so, it was a piece with a sizable soprano solo in it. She auditioned for that solo, as did a few other weaker singers who had very little personal interest in this particular composer or the process by which his work had become part of our concert.

The manner in which the auditions were held required that the prospects sing their potential solo before the entire choir. So I heard all four auditionees. Three were horrendous. Couldn't sing loud enough, didn't keep time, didn't know the notes, clearly would never be able to master this complicated modern piece in time for the concert. One, the woman who loved this piece and this composer, was excellent. And I think my judgment of her is not extreme. It was a clear case of A, F, F, F, and I'd bet all the non-auditioning choir members would have agreed with that assessment.
She was so excellent partly because of her love of the work, partly because she knew the language natively, partly because she viewed this as a chance in a lifetime and therefore worked quite hard to prepare -- much harder than any of her competition.

But the conductor gave the solo to one of the other three. "I wanted to give her a chance," he explained. "She auditions all the time and never gets to do a solo."

He was judging on the basis of something other than ability or righteousness. He thought he was being nice. But every time you choose someone or something out of a set of options, you also by definition reject the remainder of the options. He forgot that part.

I almost quit that choir over that incident. The performance sucked, mostly because the soprano soloist couldn't hack it AND DIDN'T CARE ENOUGH to learn the work. But also because solidarity among the whole group who knew the sob story was just shattered.

What the conductor did, what the t-shirt guys did, and what this lawyer is evidently doing, is human nature.: hope to include context that should not be involved in a decision. Pick which Presidential candidate has the nicest smile, or seems least likely (or most likely) to sleep around and be sexy, rather than choose the one whose policies most mesh with our own.

I don't like it when people do that. But I find that when I DON'T -- and say something like, "But the real issue here is X, not Y" -- people get pissed off at me. "How can you ignore the fact that he does / doesn't seem to sleep around?" What does that have to do with politics?

What did the skin-color of the t-shirt guys have to do with the desirability of their product? Nothing. What did the singing ability of the loser who got the solo have to do with her successful audition? Nothing. What does a church attendance have to do with whether or not a lawyer can defend a case well? Nothing. Nothing at all. But people are stupid enough to think it does.

The Baptists always seem to me to be the worst at this -- they always "make sure to give business to members of our community." That's just SO bigoted ...

I think both Rodney and final_identity are mostly on point here. And normally I think I wouldn't even agree!!

But regarding your friend, yes he is:
1) being lazy, by asking you all to find an "affluent" church for him, I guess
2) taking advantage of your friendship, which sometimes could be called "networking"...
3) is a "user" indeed

But I would also call that a form of "Social Engineering", which can be used for both good and bad. It's a "hacker" term. :p yes we "hackers" are the BAD GUYS (sarcasm there)
I myself am good at social engineering, and I've never used it to harm anyone, either, but some people do.

lurkette -- I would say that you are a step ahead of him because you recognize his game. You know it, so try your best to protect yourself against it (and the others who may not recognize it). I would avoid helping him out as far as you can, but you don't gotta be rude either. He's only going by what he knows, which may/may not be the wrong way. Joining a church just to get connections & clients is the wrong way IMHO, but it works too. He'll probably get more business.

My outlook is that it's really up to the people he comes in contact with. They've got to learn to protect themselves against jackasses who try to take advantage of them.

Just by posting this thread, it seems you know this and you are protecting yourself from this nonsense too! :thumbsup:

God: Hello ___________! You are one who has been faithful.... Only Lip.... I see, well this is the door to hell, see you!"

God: "You are one of the ones who has been faithful. What's that, it was actually only lip-service to get ahead? Well, I don't mind. Lip-service is better than no service. Welcome to heaven!"

-or-

God: "You are one of the ones who has been faithful. What's that, it was actually only lip-service to get ahead? Guess what! That IS service to me. Welcome to heaven!"

-or-

God: "You are one of the ones who has been faithful. What's that, it was actually only lip-service to get ahead? Fool, you know yourself so poorly. You should give yourself more credit! I certainly do. Welcome to heaven!"

-or-

God: "You are one of the ones who has been faithful. What's that, it was actually only lip-service to get ahead? Well then, God helps those who help themselves. Welcome to heaven!"

now repeat all of the above with "Welcome to hell!" at the end as well, and you've got some of the many options. I'm amazed at how simplistic many people's views of God's potentialities would be.

Not that I think he's some kind of long-bearded adult humanesque male who talks in English. But this post is still a useful meatphor ...

your friend is admirable...there are enough people who go to church and dont mean any of what they say...he should blend in nicely

Your friend is a jackass, but maybe going to church will end up having positive results for him other than just making money.

Maybe he'll find a goal in life other than acquisition of money. We can only hope that something positive comes from this.