04-22-2004, 02:44 PM | #42 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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I knew somebody would feel the need to get on a soapbox about guns and why they are responsible and not the kids and their parents.
I could really rant, but it would only send my blood pressure up.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
04-22-2004, 06:53 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
My own person -- his by choice
Location: Lebell's arms
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Another thing I've been thinking about is how things really haven't changed that much. There were gangs in the 50's, civil rights and hippies in the 60's, etc. Each had their own element of violance. I believe we are seeing less violance in schools right now because of the war. People have a "safe" and "acceptable" place to focus their energy. What happens when that changes? Unfortunately, violance is a way of human kind -- I wish it weren't true; but history states otherwise.
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If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection. |
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04-22-2004, 11:09 PM | #44 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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The issue is guns, and this tragedy happened becaise of guns, not sociopaths... without guns they would have just been two angry kids with no means to do what they did.
Like I said, American people have a choice, if the so called freedom to bare arms is so important, then you will have more tragedies like this, and the parents of the dead shall be the voice of your conscience, of course they can be ignored or rationalised away, but that is what they are. The Columbine mass murder happened because it was so easy for the kids to get guns, and as long as it remains so easy, the same thing will happen again, there will ALWAYS be sociopathic personalities and angry people, in most countries they are not allowed to be armed to the teeth.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-23-2004, 12:46 AM | #45 (permalink) |
Nothing
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Its not just the guns, its the whole nature of white, anglo saxon based societies (america leading the way, with britain et al rapidly catching up).
Most of the world has very liberal gun laws. There is something peculiar to the unforgiving, terribly fearful and vengeful societies in the u.s., britain and a handful of other nations with a similar leaning that lends itself to producing large scale acts of terrible violence.
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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}-- |
04-23-2004, 08:56 AM | #47 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Quote:
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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04-23-2004, 10:18 AM | #48 (permalink) |
Here
Location: Denver City Denver
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This didn't happen because of guns.
This didn't happen because these kids were crazy. This didn't happen because these kids listened to Marilyn Manson. This didn't happen because of bad parents. This didn't happen because no one tried to stop it. This happened because two kids got picked on at school to the point that in their minds the only way to solve it was murder. It could have been done with a knife, car, bombs (which they used), or anything else really. They could have killed someone with a fuckin' screwdriver. You gonna speak out against screwdrivers now? Do we need to ban thoes too? They can be used to kill someone. Fuck the guns. They did this because they had to. It was time for two free-thinking kids to stand up and fight. I mean that.
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heavy is the head that wears the crown |
04-23-2004, 10:50 AM | #49 (permalink) |
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Well, that really isnt true is it OK?
If two people went on a killing spree armed with screwdrivers its not really possible they could have killed 13 people in one attack. There are many ways of killing people, but guns are designed, created, built and intended to kill people.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-23-2004, 01:46 PM | #50 (permalink) |
I change
Location: USA
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2 sociopaths with a chemistry set or some fertilizer and gasoline could wreak havoc even worse than that possible with guns. Witness Oklahoma City. If one doesn't have access to guns, there are a host of murderous options.
This is an endless debate. I've stated nothing more than the obvious. Those in favor of less freedom and more government control will always be with us.
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04-23-2004, 01:52 PM | #51 (permalink) |
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How much freedom should people have then, with regards to weaponry?
handguns? rifles? machine guns? grenade launchers? where is the line, what does the government have the right to say people cannot have? And freedom is not a simple construct, the freedom of some people creates the unfreedom of others (ie if I am free to do what I want, you would not be free to own a gun)... the goal is surely safety, security, and a society that people can pursue happiness.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-23-2004, 04:02 PM | #53 (permalink) |
King Knave
Location: Lancaster
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What these two boys did was born of pain. Desperate, agonizing pain. No one gave a shit about them or what they thought. From what I've understood, the symtoms that something was wrong with Harris were quickly suppressed with anti-depressants, offering then, the illusion that all was right.
And the masochistic lamentations that permeate our society five years after...is our guilty conscience at work as we whip ourselves over how we let two innocents turn into demons before our very eyes. buuuuuuuuut Imaybewrong.
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04-23-2004, 07:16 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Here
Location: Denver City Denver
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heavy is the head that wears the crown |
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04-23-2004, 08:04 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: On a gravel road rough enought to knock fillings out of teeth.
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As an evil gun-owning American, I will add a comment: Those 2 (as well as their accomplaices) broke numerous federal laws before they even set foot on school property. If you can logically explain to me how more laws would have stopped them, I will be more tham willing to listen. And that's all I'm saying on that subject. I got picked on mercilessly in high school. I got over it, I went on with my life.
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Judge me all you want, but keep the verdict to yourself. |
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04-23-2004, 08:34 PM | #56 (permalink) | |||
Right Now
Location: Home
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Quote:
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I'll restate to stay on-topic: Quote:
Last edited by Peetster; 04-23-2004 at 08:37 PM.. |
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04-24-2004, 01:07 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
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And yes, the sociopaths may still try to go on the rampage with screwdrivers, or home made bombs, but we will make their job much harder because we will deny them access to instruments which are designed to kill people. If their were no guns, if the only way to get a gun was to get it on the black market, and it cost at least $1500 and owning one was a federal crime... these two kids wouldnt have had the guns, the Columbine massacre wouldnt have happened, period, simple fact. The kids that died wouldnt be dead today. If we disarmed the people, those kids would still be alive. But to most Americans it seems the right to own guns is more important than those kids lives, or all the other victimes lives... and of course most gun owners arent killers, most of them are perfectly decent law adiding people... but a gun is a tool designed to kill, and if it is widely distributed their will be more murders, we know this... the gun lobby doesnt want to know it, and that is why they are the parents wont shut up, they have become the conscience of America, they are the one's saying "well sure YOU never did any harm with your gun, but the fact you have it is the reason my child is dead, and how is it worth it?" So of course the gun lobby want them to shut up, of course they dont want to hear it, but free speech is the American mantra, and you cannot silence the voice of your own collective conscience, because without an outlet for the collective guilt everyone would have to carry it in their heart.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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04-24-2004, 01:38 AM | #58 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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The last time I checked, we kicked England out with guns they didn't want us to have. Well, whoever they are, I'll not lay down for their (or your) misguided, misinformed plans, not while I draw breath. Two more final (really final) thoughts. "An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject." and Molon Labe.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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04-24-2004, 01:56 AM | #59 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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The civil war was fought mostly between English, German, French and Dutch settlers and their governments, it was not a war between nations because America only became a nation when those settlers were able to expel the British colonial government.. in fact the American's were defeated by the English, German, French & Dutch settlers because the settlers had guns and the Native American people didnt. America lost the war of conquest because of firepower, not won it - thats why it became a European colony in the first place.
When I see "we" must disarm the people, I mean that the government must, the safety of the people is the state's main objective, and the people are not safe when they are so heavily armed and when 10,000 people a year are being shot to death. Because I am English, and I have always lived in a culture where hardly anyone has a gun, it is difficult for to understand the emotional attachment people have to guns, I accept... when people say "you will only take my gun from my cold dead hand" they cant be just saying "look, I really need this gun to live my everyday life, I use it all the time to do this and that..." it is a very emotional attachment, and that is what has to be broken, that is what the tears of the parents of dead high school kids are trying to wash away. Why does anyone need a gun? To hunt? Well, I doubt that many gun owners actually do hunt, but those that do dont need to, the state can give them paintball guns and they can go to special centres and have exactly the same experience, without killing and maiming wild animals. If anyone genuinely needs to hunt for food, they should be receive extra welfare so that they can buy enough food to eat which is slaughtered in the conventional way. For self protection... but this is the ultimate prisoners dilemma... if you have a gun, then the burgular needs a gun the police needs a gun... if they are all disarmed, then we have the same situation and just less fatalities. For trophy display? I understand a few people like to collect things, and I have no problem with them collecting guns that have been altered so that they cannot fire. What other reasons are there that people actually need to own a gun for?
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-24-2004, 03:23 AM | #61 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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As King stated, 2 guys with as little as screwdrivers could do a hell of a lot of damage. I guess we'll have to outlaw anything remotely pointy, as well. We're really screwed now. Also, driving a car or truck through a crowd would kill a HELL of a lot more than 13 people, especially if you spread it out over time. I'll also add that they made numerous pipe bombs and planted them on campus, and THEY were supposed to be the main source of the carnage. Fortunately, they sucked and the bombs never went off. You don't use guns to make bombs, you use things that are very available to anyone who wants them. Quote:
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04-24-2004, 04:32 AM | #63 (permalink) | |
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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04-24-2004, 06:03 AM | #65 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Tempe,Az....until I figure things out...
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I think many sad things will continue to happen like this, 9/11, the war in iraq... these things will happen, and not until afterwards will people start to investigate to see what could've happened differently, how it COULD have been prevented..etc. Much like the 9/11 commission is doing right now, going over all the info th gov't had before 9/11.
I know that they are able to stop many horrible things from happening, but they can't stop them all.. no matter if there are "pre-warning" signs or not. Bad things will always happen, but I think everyone learns from them and moves on in some way, shape, or form.
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"Things can only get so bad before they have no choice but to get better.." Quote:
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04-24-2004, 07:11 AM | #66 (permalink) | |
"Officer, I was in fear for my life"
Location: Oklahoma City
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Ya know, jsut once I would like to see a news story that went someting like this:
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There are to many good stories of things that never get reported in our society because the don't sell. I'm getting pretty tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions. It's always someone else's fault. Bull shit. It is not the fault of an inanimate object. It is the fault of people who make bad decisions because they either don't know better or can't comprehend the consequenses of their actions. Otherwise I could say it wasn't my fault I wrecked my truck...it must be Fords fault because they built it. |
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04-24-2004, 07:21 AM | #67 (permalink) |
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And the reason America has 10,000 gun deaths a year and the UK has about 150 is this.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-24-2004, 07:42 AM | #69 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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sounda about right Hanxter, so do the math 60 million into 300 million vs 150 into 10000
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-24-2004, 08:52 AM | #70 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Quote:
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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04-24-2004, 09:00 AM | #71 (permalink) |
don't ignore this-->
Location: CA
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that's pretty mean-spirited, making people do math on a weekend. that's why people get shot.
next time can the condescension and do the math yourself. it makes your argument sound better to include numbers instead of "so do the math"
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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman. |
04-24-2004, 09:20 AM | #73 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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I think I got the 10,000 figure from someone who posted it here, but I remember Moore quoted about 11,000, I also remember Bill Hicks quoting 12,000.
And what I mean by "this" is this whole attitude of being so emotionally attached to gun ownership... the fact that people seem to feel it is an inalienable human right to own lethal weapons.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-24-2004, 09:36 AM | #74 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Why would anyone feel that the right to speak your mind is important enough to defend with firearms? How fucked up is that?!?
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 04-24-2004 at 09:38 AM.. |
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04-24-2004, 10:00 AM | #75 (permalink) | ||
WoW or Class...
Location: UWW
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Meanwhile the statistic in Bowling For Columbine includes statistics where people were killed for defensive purposes, suicide, etc.
Strange Famous, have you ever lived in a wilderness type area? How about an American wilderness where you have animals like bears or wolves? Sure, you might not be attacked by either one, but if you ever come face to face with them and they start coming towards you, you'd want to be holding a nice big gun. Quote:
I will say that your comment on hunting is entirely ignorant and doesn't require rebuttal. Quote:
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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!" |
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04-24-2004, 10:13 AM | #76 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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I dont want to be accused of taking the thread off course, so maybe hunting is something to discus in another thread?
But with regards to the legacy of Columbine, the police are one of the first groups that will need to be disarmed, if America ever decides to rid itself of guns.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
04-24-2004, 10:25 AM | #77 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Considering that the thread was about how sick and tired I am of the incescent rehash of Columbine and not about whether or not guns caused it, I think you've already taken it off course.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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04-24-2004, 11:31 AM | #79 (permalink) | |
follower of the child's crusade?
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Quote:
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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04-24-2004, 11:48 AM | #80 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I also find it interesting that you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the logic that all guns should be universally outlawed is no different from the logic that all cars should be outlawed because they can be used - illegally, just as guns are - to kill people. Cars are lethal weapons. Trust me - if I wanted, I could easily kill at least 50 people in about half an hour right here in the city.
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