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Big brother raided a house two miles away from me

First the article then my thoughts

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...7m26wrong.html

Quote:

Carlsbad family seeks apology in fruitless pot raid

By Shannon Tangonan
UNION-TRIBUNE UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

March 26, 2004

CARLSBAD – Dina Dagy admits her family could do better when it comes to conserving energy.

Her children don't always shut off the computers when they're done. The family of five leaves its outside lights on so that their runaway boxer might find its way home. And it's not uncommon for them to do two or three loads of laundry each day.

But it never occurred to Beryl and Dina Dagy that their high electric bills – which run from $200 to $300 a month – would cause them problems with the law.

The Dagys' home was one of 25 raided Friday as part of a six-month investigation into a countywide ring that was growing marijuana inside rental homes. Homes were targeted largely based on unusually high utility bills, which often result from the 24-hour use of grow lights, according to court records.

No pot was found in the Dagys' home.

Dina Dagy was volunteering in her son's second-grade classroom when police arrived at her Ivy Street home.

"Their investigation was just so flawed," Dina Dagy said yesterday as she sat in the two-story home the family bought a year ago.

The Dagys want a written apology from the Carlsbad Police Department, which conducted the search, and have sent letters to city, county and state officials in hopes that other families won't go through the same ordeal.

Carlsbad police Lt. Bill Rowland said he planned to speak with the Dagys, and his investigators apologized to the Dagys the day of the search, but he did not commit to a written apology.

That's because the Dagys' high electricity bill was not the sole reason for the search, Rowland said. He noted a drug-sniffing dog showed interest in the home when it was taken there before Friday's search. A search warrant affidavit was reviewed by the District Attorney's Office and a judge signed the warrant.

Misha Piastro, spokesman for the federal Drug Enforcement Administration in San Diego, said that although the DEA headed the investigation that led to 24 county arrests and the seizure of thousands of high-grade pot plants, the Carlsbad search was more of an offshoot of the larger investigation.

Before the raid, investigators reached Beryl Dagy on his cellular phone to ask if someone would let them inside to avoid knocking down the door, Rowland said. He then called his wife at the school.

Dina Dagy arrived to find police surrounding the home. Neighbors watched as she stood outside and detectives combed through the house.

They found plenty of toys, but no pot.

So how did police zero in on the home?

In his sworn affidavit, Carlsbad Detective Mark Reyes states an unidentified, confidential source told a county Narcotics Task Force agent that someone might be growing pot in the house.

Investigators subpoenaed utility records, which showed the Dagys used 1,584 kilowatts of electricity in February, and 1,616 kilowatts in January, the affidavit states. That's three to four times the amount used in neighboring homes during the same period, according to the affidavit.

Also, surveillance of the home showed that the Dagys placed their trash cans on the curb outside their home the morning of the Thursday pickups.

Why is that a big deal? Some narcotics offenders wait until the last possible moment to put their trash on the curb because they know that investigators retrieve evidence from trash, the affidavit says.

Dina Dagy admits that their San Diego Gas & Electric bills are high, but "I didn't realize it would target us as marijuana growers."

Rowland said detectives maintain there was probable cause to search the home.

Dina Dagy isn't convinced.

"They were wrong and I want them to say they were wrong," she said.

The part that gets me is the "anonymous" tip that these people were growing pot. The cops got the records from the power company first, sorted through them and then decided who to raid. Maybe they needed a subpoena for one of the houses they raided, but I doubt they would get one for this specific family's records. They did a whole bunch of raids in San Diego that day and while they were rifling through the records they decided that these people use too much energy and they needed to be hit. That is how I see it at least. Couple of points of mine.

1 - The house is worth over $600,000, I have seen it and I am sure. Odds that they are growing pot in that? Not an absolute no, but certainly not an indicator that they were.

2 - The Dog signaled outside the house supposedly. These people HAVE a dog. I bet the dog signaled on the family dog's piss or something. When your only tool is a hammer - all your problems begin to look like nails. I am sure they could have come up with all kinds of "probable cause" (like the garbage cans.)

3 - How many times are authorities rifling through YOUR records today? No doubt your bank account, phone bill and energy bill is being data mined today for hits and behaviour paterns. What might they find? What happens when the IP addresses you visit don't conform to the authorities view of "decency"?

Our government is encroaching on our rights now that technology is providing an easy means of doing so. (power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly). The temptation to go through your personal life is too great for a government. Be careful out there. Stay informed and participate in what is our political process. It may be crap, but short of throwing tea in the harbor, it is all we have right now.

this happened to a mexican friend of mine when I was living in California. They busted down the door and everything, they found nothing, they fixed nothing, they apologized for nothing.

Still, dipshits will see this and say it's a minor inconvenience that allows us to lock up more bad guys. I'd rather arrest less people and humiliate and victimize no innocents.

Quote:

Originally posted by kutulu
Still, dipshits will see this and say it's a minor inconvenience that allows us to lock up more bad guys. I'd rather arrest less people and humiliate and victimize no innocents.

Totally. Invade privacy and break down doors to prosecute a victimless crime? Unreal and it is only going to get worse. This is small, but each time they will get more daring as far as how much of the line they will trample.

Welcome to the War on Drugs. Whether you like it, or not, you are a combatant.

*sigh* Glad to know I no longer have a right to privacy. Thanks for informing me :(

I don't mean to be the sole voice of opposition, but here it goes:

How do you know that the police just randomly started searching through utility records like you assumed? How do we know that the police did not receive an anonymous tip from a nosy neighbor? How does the high value of the house exclude the occupants from illegal activity?

The police need a supoena to access utility records. The police can't simply start searching through records on a whim. Drug dogs do not "hit" on another dog's piss. The dogs and handlers are well trained and the handler knows the difference between the dog's normal activity and his alert to whatever contraband they are trained to detect.

All that being said, I do not believe that there was enough probable cause to have a warrant issued in this case. A high utility bill and a positive hit by a dog should not be enough for a judge to issue a warrant. The detective applying for the warrant and the issuing judge should be looked into.

I have never heard of that happening. I mean you can have high power bills just from AC. Cops really aren't using too much common sense anymore. I am shocked that they would raid a house just on a power bill.

I wonder if the dogs they brought to the actual search reacted "positively" that day. Right now I'm thinking that they made up the first dog to cover up a bad decision.

Quote:

Originally posted by fhqwhgads
How do you know that the police just randomly started searching through utility records like you assumed? How do we know that the police did not receive an anonymous tip from a nosy neighbor? How does the high value of the house exclude the occupants from illegal activity?

The police need a supoena to access utility records. The police can't simply start searching through records on a whim. Drug dogs do not "hit" on another dog's piss. The dogs and handlers are well trained and the handler knows the difference between the dog's normal activity and his alert to whatever contraband they are trained to detect.

All that being said, I do not believe that there was enough probable cause to have a warrant issued in this case. A high utility bill and a positive hit by a dog should not be enough for a judge to issue a warrant. The detective applying for the warrant and the issuing judge should be looked into.

I don't KNOW that they randomly searched through records. The thing is that this was part of a multi-house raid all over the county.
http://www.thesandiegochannel.com/ne...82/detail.html
If this were an truely an unrelated tip, the timing is awfully convienient that the tip came when they were going after these other homes. I think they went looking for a probable cause ghost with the "dog signal" and the "puts garbage out the day of" and found one. It is like they have mad libs of probable cause that they can turn to AFTER they search through your records. Then they can "retroactivly" supeana your records (after they have already seen them the first time) and then bust your door down.

Funny thing is that as the voice of opposition you have is not that far off from me. I do not think they had cause to go in regardless of whether or not they snooped your records.

There is no such thing as a retroactive supoena. It's not like we can walk into the local utility, start browsing through records, and find ones that we like, and then have a judge issue a supoena for those records. The utility companies don't have an open door policy like that when it comes to the police.

I don't see the fact that they raided several homes in one day as odd. It is common for several investigations to be going on around the same time, and the raids to be conducted at the same time. Just because several raids were conducted the same day does not mean that all the probable cause was gained at the same time.

Mondak, what I'm trying to say is that you don't know what actually occurred. Neither do I. The difference is that you seem to have a distrust of the police, and I have a strong trust. Like you said, when you have a hammer, all your problems seem to look like nails. Conversely, when you have a distrust of the police, you believe that everything they do is done unethically and without reason. You start to assume that things are done in reverse and without reason.

I am on the inside looking out. I see how things are actually done and why they are done. I'm not trying to claim that there aren't problems, and that there isn't corruption, but it bothers me when people take a certain set of facts and assume that corruption is taking place. Neither of us know what exactly was done. Neither of us know if there actually was an anonymous tip, or whether or not there was a positive hit by a drug dog. You will always assume that there was not, and I will always assume that there was.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think they should write them a apology. It doesn't look like they are going to sue, but I wonder if they will if they don't get one.

Yea, those dumb asses kicked down the door to a house in Mission last week, just because they could stand in the street and smell the pot inside....it was a stach house---they only got 600 pounds.....hate to be down wind of that when they burn it....

The current administration has turned everything into a "war on something." The war on terror, the war on drugs, the war on indecency. Guess what? It's all really a war on your civil rights.

Quote:

Originally posted by eribrav
The current administration has turned everything into a "war on something." The war on terror, the war on drugs, the war on indecency. Guess what? It's all really a war on your civil rights.

I dislike the administration just as much as 80% or so of the TFP, but what did it have to do with this raid? It was conducted by Carlsbad city police. The administration did enough real bad things to eliminate the need for you to make false accusations against it.

Quote:

In his sworn affidavit, Carlsbad Detective Mark Reyes states an unidentified, confidential source told a county Narcotics Task Force agent that someone might be growing pot in the house.

the key word i found is "MIGHT"...

well, no shit - and i MIGHT be the Uni-bomber because i live 4 miles in the woods... but that's confidential

if i were them i'd be calling the ACLU...

Thing is, even if they did have pot in there house, lots of drug dealers aren't really criminals in my eyes, only the ones that turn to violence to protect there buisness are criminals. So imo even if this family had pounts of pot in there house, they wouldn't be criminals in my eyes.

The DEA needs to wake up and see that this country is beginning to see pot for what it really is, not what the government wants you to think.

LEGALIZE IT!

let's see,

my garbage day is wednesday:
if i put it out on tuesday or wednedsday, they might think that i am trying to hide stuff in my garbage and get it out at the last minute.
if i put it out on thursday, they will think that i am some crazy drug addict who can't remember to put his garbage out on collection day, and i hate leaving my garbage cans out all week.

what do i do?

what's mine is mine - not yours to dig thru - it's my trash - my bills - my yard...

you go thru my trash - i'll get a burn permit...
you go thru my records - you better have a warrant...
walk a dog in my yard - it's dead...

the law here states.. if it's adjacent to, or in a dumpster, it becomes communal property - if it's on my property it's mine, till it's picked up...

any or all records retrieved on my proprty warrants a warrant...

any animal alone or being led by an authority warrants a warrant - no provision for roaming - hence illegal search and seizure...

without a warrant is the most complex issue there is - saying that "i lost my leash" and use that as an issue to serve is illegal...

further - to issue a warrant for search and seizure on probable cause must have a visual intent to perform...

i may be wrong but our liberties are very limited as to what we can or can not do on our own property...

you have a party in your yard where beer is served, is that drinking in public???

Actually User Name, the federal government has plenty to do with the raid. Local departments are funded to carry out drug raids. That's where the federal priorities lie, and that's how the dollars get handed out.

If for instance the feds decided it was actually important to secure our border with Mexico, rather than the current state of affairs, they'd be directing resources that way.

You know, if it was a murder they were investigating, ok. But this bullshit war on drugs where innocent people can have their homes invaded under the guise of some confidential informants statement is the absolute worst violation of rights imaginable.

Lets see these cops and judges have their doors kicked in, guns held to their heads and homes ransacked a couple of times. Then see how willing they are to issue no knock warrants based on flimsy evidence.

This happened to my Mom. Never used a drug in her life, much less sold any. One night at 2:00 am, here are the cops busting in the door, putting shotguns in her face and forcing a 62 year old woman to the floor. Ransacked the house, found nothing (of course). Turned out they wanted a house with the same street name except for hers was Rd. and it should have been street. Bunch of idiots. Pissed me off soo bad.

Quote:

The war on drugs has been going on for 25 years plus.

to me the whole war on drugs is just absurd- I HAVE NEVER DONE AN ILLEGAL DRUG - hell, I didn't even drink underage- the war on drugs is a losing war that gets good people killed, and innocent ones dragged through a mill- prohibition on liquor did not work in this country- and there are now millions made off of taxes on booze- so why fight a loosing battle when legalization will save lives and money- the answer is our entrenched political system that does not react well to reality, and refuses to admit that its policies are failing.......

Quote:

Also, surveillance of the home showed that the Dagys placed their trash cans on the curb outside their home the morning of the Thursday pickups.

Why is that a big deal? Some narcotics offenders wait until the last possible moment to put their trash on the curb because they know that investigators retrieve evidence from trash, the affidavit says.

Most homeowners associations get all over your ass about the garbage cans.

I would seriously be amused if Big Brother beat down the door to my house and started raiding. I would honestly start laughing.

Maybe eat my hard drives. That's a lot of mp3s.

There is nothing wrong with them giving the family an apology. It was a mistake. They came to the wrong conclusions based on the families particular habits and nothing more. They should at least be willing to give the family a written apology. It would be embarressing to have all the neighbors watch while the police searched your house. It gives the neighbors the impression that you could be/become criminals just because the police thought you were. From then all the neighbors will look at the family just a little suspiciously. A written apology might help to stop that from becoming an issue.

Personally - my family didn't take their garbage out until the morning of because the dogs in the neighborhood would tear into it and spread it over the road.

We use a lot of electricity. Almost twice as much as our neighbor:
- because we have a family/he is single
- we have 3 computers/he has none
- we have a stereo and sounds system and 2 TV's/he has a small TV
- I'm home all day with children/he goes out during the day
- I wash my clothes at home/he uses the laundromat
- I do 4 times as many dishes
- I'm up later
I could go on and on. They should have been a little more careful. Instead of finding mainly circumstantial evidence. If they were growing pot - they would have been meeting people to sell it to eventually. The police could monitor things and watch for real criminal activity.

One thing I can say. At least they didn't break the door down to go in. They asked to be let in. The family cooperated so I think an apology would be good PR and not too much to ask.

I am proud to say that we have not had any mistaken homes raided in my area. I am ashamed to say that there were plenty of houses raided... and plenty of people arrested, including four of my first cousins...

It's sad.. and this is a very small community, my home town only has 3200 people in it!

Quote:

Originally posted by Aletheia
The war on drugs has been going on for 25 years plus.

I could have sworn it was the bastard son of that other great Republican leader, Ronald Reagan.

Mr Mephisto

[EDIT]

Turns out it was Nixon.

[/EDIT]

Drugs are winning the war on drugs and the American citizens are losing, and the DEA is cashing in on it.

They should feel lucky they even got a verbal apology... sadly.. they deserve a written, and to have one of their officers go around the whole neighborhood and explain what happened and how they fucked up to all their neighbors. But that will never happen. I'd be amazed if a written apology happens, and that will only happen after all this media.

Once, I was raided.
The DEA and US Customs. Long story short, I had ordered some cleaning fluid that they thought was GBL (an illegal precursor chemical to GHB [a chemical that is illegal, even though it occurs naturally in the body. recreational doses are similar to being drunk.). My cleaning fluid was perfectly legal. This, of course, did not stop them from raiding the house, tearing everything apart, taking my girlfriend's computer, and my neighbors to think I was a drug trafficer. etc etc.
6 months later, my g/f went to get her computer back, and they said "turns out that stuff was what your boyfriend said it was." that's it. no apology. they never even told me themselves that I was off the hook.

meh.

another time... they barged into my friend's parents' home, thinking some criminals had gone into the house to hide. I'll say that they DID find a guy hiding under their porch outside - but not before they screamed and pointed guns at my friend's mom, and tore apart their house. Protecting the people? hardly... the police were a much greater threat to their safety than the guy who probably stole a car stereo or some shit.

blah.

I'm in the next city (San Marcos) and when I read that article this weekend it raised flags in my head, too. I met 2 of the three critera: Huge utility bills and morning trash-day. The only thing I'm missing is the drug-sniffing dog sitting down...

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanxter

walk a dog in my yard - it's dead...

you have a party in your yard where beer is served, is that drinking in public???

Two things:

#1) The dog, if being walked in an area with POSTED no trespassing signs is simply an extension of criminal trespassing. Using lethal force is not a reasonable method for the removal of a trespasser (even here in Texas) if he has not used lethal force first and eliminated your chance of escape.

#2) After having a friend arrested in his back yard for Public Intoxication (henceforth, PI), the difference is this: if the gate is open, there is no list of visitors allowed in, or no one preventing entry into the party by uninvited guests, it is legally "open to the public." Getting a PI is not saying you were on public property, but rather in a place "open to the public."

That's cool. I don't think I would mind that happening to me.

Well that one was a pretty bad job by investigators, but fo rthe most part, if you don't do anything wrong you are not going to be a target.

The reason that a lot of people have a distrust of the police is because they have seen the abuses. I am not against the police. I think they have a very hard job, but I also think that every crack in our privacy is exploited and abused by someone in authority. And we seem to be seeing more and more freedoms go out the window everyday. The old argument that if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry abt is flat out wrong the way they keep passing laws eventually we will all be guilty of something or they will keep looking until they find something.

Their usage is equivalent to running a 2 hp motor 24 hours/day, 7 days/week. I hate to say this borders on ridiculous. Sun lamps are likely going to cost more to run than this. Some cop didn't do his homework. If I were a pot grower, I would probably just load up on propane and use that since they could never trace it. Just fill up a couple of extra tanks during the winter and save it for the summertime. This is an abuse of power. I'm also frankly surprised they could get access to the electrical usage. This is confidential information. I'm pretty sure they would have to have a warrant to even see it.