BentNotTwisted

It might be easier on the mods, but I like my journal because occasionally I just want to rant about something or ramble on about a topic that no one in their right mind would want to see in a thread.

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IS THAT IT ???!!!
Do you even know what 'it' is?

When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

Cynthetiq

mods or supermods cannot read private journal entries.

and yes they will still commit the crimes they do. the goverment monitoring doesn't change anything because there are other countires that do more survieling and it's still an issue for them.

omega2K4

~springrain was banned? WTF. This place has way too much hate. I'm packing my bags.

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"While the State exists there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

"Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form."- Karl Marx

skier

This is not your forum, and this is not a democracy. There are those here who have power, and those who have none. Just be glad that if you don't like what's going on you can leave.
The fact that the admins are looking through journal entries is suprising to me, but on reflection, is a reasonable thing to do on a legal standpoint. I personally think there should have been a prominately displayed disclaimer that private journal entries have to be read to protect the site from legal complications, but it is not my board.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Prince

While it is true that the board doesn't belong to the people, without the people there'd be no community, and thus no purpose for the board, either. Right? Which means that ultimately we'll just have to find a way to get along.

I guess the subject matter's already been done to death, but I wanted to share my thoughts as well anyway. As far as the privacy of the journal entries is concerned, I personally never assumed that they would be completely "for my eyes only". That's just the nature of the Internet, and by posting in an online journal I accept the risk.

The issue of free speech, that a few touched on, is another thing entirely. A lot of the time when posting on TFP, I feel slightly worried that I am going to say something, accidentally, that someone will be offended by, and I will get banned for it. I've even expressed this concern to staff members in the TFP chat, and they told me that generally no one gets banned without a warning.

However... I still worry, I guess. I really like TFP, I've no qualms with its rules, and I thoroughly enjoy being part of a community as open-minded and welcoming as this one. I guess that alone is enough to generate concern; when one finds something that they deem precious to them, they want to hang onto it, and worry about making a mistake that will cause them to lose it.

I think what adds to this is that every now and then, especially recently, I see people getting banned, and not knowing why. And not just minors who stumbled on the site and signed up, but members that were here long before I found the place, members whose posts I've enjoyed immensely and whose footsteps I've followed in an effort to become a better member of this fine community. Seeing these said individuals suddenly carry the "banned" label is unnerving, obviously. Probably most so because there is no way to know what happened. That makes one feel a bit...paranoid, I guess, would be the word.

Don't misunderstand - I do believe that the admins and mods at TFP are honest and good at what they do. I don't question their decisions. It is simply that the abruptness of these bannings makes one feel wary of saying or doing anything that might rub someone else the wrong way. Hell, I feel a bit worried just posting these thoughts here, because someone might interpret this as site-bashing - while my intent is nothing of the kind. I am mentioning this because I think others share similar concerns, and I think these concerns are really felt needlessly.

I fall short of providing a solution, though. A thread of explanations of bans? Hardly...not everything has to be explained (what does?) and mods are busy enough as is. I guess I don't have a solution. But I think this open discussion is a healthy step in the right direction - as long as we all keep our cool and realize that each action has a reaction. That's how a community works, after all.

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Who is John Galt?

Aletheia

I have seen unmoderated forums before and let me tell you, they all turn to shit pretty fast. Even private unmoderated content can get out of hand.

Mr.Deflok

Well said Prince, but you just gotta remember to say what you wouldn't mind hearing be said, and you'll be fine. And if ever you are overcome by paranoia the Edit button is always your friend.

Is it possible to see a list of people who have been banned?

tinfoil

Skier, you are wrong in your statement. The outlet doesn't belong to the people, but that makes TFP what it is does belong to the people. The leadership has created an environment, but it is the people that made it grow to levels not thought of by the management.

Indeed, Halx and the others are well within their rights to do as they see fit, no matter if we as a community agree with it or not. However, unilateral action on behalf of the management tends to breed negativity towards the management so such actions need to be used sparingly. No, I am not criticizing the leadership's jugdement nor am I questioning the people banned. Mistakes were made on both sides.

It's time to learn from these mistakes and carry on. Hopefully with minimum disruption.

Is an explenation necessary? Hardly, though I believe there is still a public explenation coming because surely Hal will grow tired of answering hundreds of private messages.

Is there a solution? No, probably not. Within any community there will be those that agree and those that do not. It is up to the community to work past these differences to grow.


Edit:

Of course, after I read this I see that Halx has indeed responded. yay me.

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Get off your fuckin cross. We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.

Cycler

Well this is all very interesting. I am sure people have been up late at nights in an effort to keep the crap from washing up over all of our collective shoes. So here are my thoughts.<br> Is it bad that I didn't realize that there was this big of a problem? <br> At first I thought so that I was out of the loop, missing out. But, I think that is in fact inaccurate. I think that really the mods and Halx have done there level best to keep what they see as inappropriate behavior and actions from affecting his (Hal's place the TFP) and their/our (the mods and members) board. So if I didn't know what was going on then they must have been doing a pretty damn good job. While I am not as active as others around here I do like to think that I am an average TFP member and I am pretty observant. While we did have that little pissing match awhile back where disagreements led to others quitting (not much for quitters) I beleived that had passed. It seemed to have simply simmered and now has boiled AGAIN! Please, when are people going to realize that this place is run by a select few who are doing a good job. How can you not have realized that the journals were not completely private!? I mean are they in a safe in your place of residence!? NO!!! They on on a computer half a country away. How could they possibly be private.<p>Jeez I don't know where I was really going witht his but it is amazing to me that this place even continues to exist. In the days of here one day gone the next sites this has been pretty consistant and I think willl remain to that way as long as Hal and his team of mods continue to work as they have been. Make the hard decisions Guys and Gals. I think I like a few memebers will accept them because wether we know it or not you are doing your best for yourselves and us.<p?In closing and I hope some sense was made somewhere in this tome of a response,<p>GOOD WORK HALX and THE REST who keep this place together!<p>Thanks.

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"I'm not even supposed to be here today."

"I assure you we're open."

bender

Perhaps its just me but your posting your thoughts on the fricking internet they will be read.
If you mark them as private they are still going to be read.
That isn't the mark of intrusion, its the mark of responsible owners.
This is one of the best sites that I've come across and I would only assume that each and everything that I say here will be read as the people who run it have a responsibility to ensure that they are not allowing for activities that can result directly or indirectly in a crime or even something that is morally reprehensible.
That is the respons. that they have as if they don't monitor things they by turning a blind eye could be helping someone get away with child porn, or worse then what ?
If you have a kid and own a handgun you prob. won't leave it unlocked and loaded sitting on a table. You would take all of the steps required to ensure that everyone is kept safe, you don't have to check that its still locked away everyday but you do have to make sure that its done so to start with, and every now and again just check on it.
Isn't that sort of whats gone on here ?

Lebell

Pretty much.

I don't use the journals anymore (I put mine on my hard-drive), nor do I read others as a rule (either the public entries: I don't care to, or the private ones: super mods don't have the rights), but I know that if it is on the net, expect someone, somewhere to read it.

I can't really understand anyone who doesn't get that.

Oh well.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SecretMethod70

Suit yourself of course - that's the point of all of this in the first place. Many members had hate for this place and were spreading it through various means (and are continue to spread it through rumors, lies, and allegations in some cases). When that hate and their actions of hate are discovered, it's only natural to relieve them of their burden of being members of this board

Hate has no place on TFP and those who perpetuate it don't either.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pan6467

I felt the journal was a place to spout off, without repercussion. They should be where you can go to express whatever you feel, BUT they are public so you must take that into account. Now if you lock your journal, you are therefore saying your feelings are private and therefore you should be safe from any repercussions, as only you should be seeing them. If you do not lock then they become public and you must accept that.

However, after reading Hal's post, I do see how if very damaging things are posted they should be somewhat monitored. After all having a pedophile on the board and if he is posting about his desires whether in journal or not, is something that will destroy the reputation here faster than trying to quietly kick him out. Especially if he/she had left the journal unlocked and left open to the public.

I am as anti-censorship as they come, BUT by allowing pedophiles, rapists, or sociological plagues to infest and post publicly thier deeds or desires, then this site is doomed by it's own freedoms.

I don't believe or agree tho, that people who post negative things about the board should be censored. In fact, I feel negatives should be posted so that they can be explained and worked out. By not allowing negatives to be expressed, (and not everything is or can be positive) you allow the people to become upset and they begin to feel thier voice and thoughts don't matter. That can destroy this site also.

In the end, I believe this site was and is for people who have similar thoughts to come, create make friends and talk about mutual interests and perhaps help each other out.

It goes to responsibility, be responsible for your posts, and the mods won't have to.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

tommy_vercetti

so all the people banned were banned because they bashed the tfp?

pan6467

"Bashing" can mean so much tho because it is a very ambiguous word and subjective to whoever monitors.

Were they basically being childish and calling names, in other words being DESTRUCTIVE with no desire to talk and just trying to cause more problems. OR were the banned banned for questioning and trying to figure out some rules and work on things in a CONSTRUCTIVE and RESPONSIBLE way?

My guess is they chose to try to be destructive, but I also feel that perhaps guidelines on "bashing" since it is becoming a problem needs to be defined. That way in the future there will be no debate over the issue.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Bill O'Rights

No one, and I repeat, no one, has ever been banned or criticized for trying to figure out some rules and work on things in a consuctive and responsible way.

pan6467

Thank you Bill...... that should put to rest any questions. And I for one am now happy as my questions and thoughts have been answered.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

KWSN

me too. i didn't want to make a big deal out of it but i figured there are people here who i don't want to confuse and would want to know for sure.

bye everyone. it was fun while it lasted.

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Your arms are broken!

flamingdog

I wish people would just make clear what the arguments on both sides were instead of skipping around the subjects. "Things... bad things were said... things we don't want to repeat." Meanwhile on the other hand we have "This place has too much hate."

I know people here like to pride themselves on being intelligent higher forms of life, but that doesn't mean you have to skip around everything with fancy-dan language.

I can't believe that so many long-standing and seasoned members would kick off and leave without any good reason. And I can't believe long-standing and seasoned members would be banned without good reason. But beyond that, I have no idea WHY any of this has happened.

pan6467

Unfortunately, when you have a community like this one that has so many people with differing views of life there will be problems.

What I have gathered from reading posts and talking to a person 1-1 about this, I have come to this conclusion.

Someone got into trouble warned and then banned, for a reason the Higher muckity mucks deemed right. This person therefore proceeded to tell friends and started rumors and just created a bad mojo. These friends instead of reacting wisely chose to believe the stories and bad mojo, and put it upon themselves to try to outmaneuver(?) the people who run the show.

People who run the show tried to be civil, tried to put things to rest before they decided to do the right thing to save the rest of the community the soap opera shit. They warned, they told people who was in charge, and the people banned deemed it upon themselves to continue trying to create problems.

Summary..... person got banned for righteous reasons, tried to make a power play to save face and hurt the site....... people in charge said fuck it we don't need that shit, they got rid of it. Those banned chose not to listen to reason and for whatever purpose chose to fight.

Was there a better solution? Perhaps, but in the end we are guests here and have to maintain a form of decorum and responsibility for ourselves.

This maybe a place to think and talk and make friends but it is also a community and needs policed like any other community.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

DownwardSpiral

Can someone please explain to me why ~springrain was banned? From here it looked like all she did was express her thoughts on this matter.

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"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

Halx

please read the post above yours... pan's post appears to be fairly congruent with the events that took place. All the names that can be mentioned in conjunction with this big fiasco can be linked to the activities previously described (in this thread and another thread). They did so in such a fashion to warrant a 'ban' vote from several members of the staff.

Right now, we're in the process of reviewing each case one by one and some of the bannings are being rescinded. No guarantees.

other thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=45214

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You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
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meembo

I just don't think there is an expectation of privacy here. Trust is one thing, but privacy is another

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less I say, smarter I am

MSD

You'd be surprised at what some people would do.

MaGlC_MaN

who were some of these "long-standing and seasoned members" that got banned?

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Bye.

raeanna74

I was just curious and went back to check. I do not see the word "private" actually used as a label or even in regards to the journals. They are just that journals. They aren't called Private Journals so there is no reason anyone SHOULD assume that they are truely private. It's common sense to assume that anything put on the internet ISN'T private. Perhaps there could be a note of clarification though for any newbies to read that the posts that are made "private" are still open to scrutiny. Otherwise I don't think there is any error on the part of the admin.

There are just some things that I do not say or write anywhere. Not on paper, not allowed, not on the phone. There isn't that enough privacy in our world for that. I would definately not record it on a public forum.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

billege

If you feel freedoms can serve as a cause of doom. Well, you don't deserve freedom.

Sorry, but freedom and responsibility are always linked. I abhor the thought you've posted.

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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

pan6467

One can be doomed by thier own freedoms if they do not take responsibility for thier actions.

Example:

I have the freedom to free speech and press. I choose to use those to denigrate a certain minority. (Say I print articles and on my radio show only focusing on the evils of the Martian Colonialistic Followers.) Now by my focussing only on the "evils" can bias all my patrons against that minority to the point where that minority starts to rebel. Fights breakout and people refuse to listen to the other side.

It was my freedom to start this. But am I not responsible for the hatred because I only focused on the negatives of that minority and not on the positives? Absolutely. Was I irresponsible and proving hate, even tho I may never have said anything "bad" just focused on the bad? Absolutely. Did I doom a freedom? Yes, because I did not express myself in a responsible way and society then has to regulate what can be said in order to prevent this from happening again.

Had I focussed on both evil and good from that minority and not provoked the hatred there would never be the need for policing of my actions. Therefore my rights would never be infringed upon.

I know it sounds convoluted and it is because I am a warped individual that has a hard time expressing things without being convoluted. But I hope it kinda makes sense.

In the end what I was saying and I am in agreement with you is freedom without responsibility is doomed.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mephisto2

I don't mean to be insulting, but anyone who posts to a web-based online journal system and thinks it is priviate is a fool.

If you don't want prying eyes to read it (or be capable of reading it), then DON'T POST IT.

Mr Mephisto

eyeronic

The private tag misled some overly trusting people. I would never put anything truly private in there, but then again, I have nothing that I need to hide, like those corpses in my closet, heh heh, everybody knows about those.

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I hold with those that favor fire.