ElwoodBlues

Last night, a good friend of mine was taken advantage of by two guys I know. Lets call them Guy A, and Guy B

She went to a small party at Guy Bs house. After some time, she was very drunk, in combonation with pain killers. Not Good. Most people left, and she was left there with Guy A and B. Thats when Guy A started to try and do things with her. She was very, very drunk, and in no state of mind to be making any decisions. Guy B was right there the whole time, not trying to stop anything. By the way, the guys were both completely sober.

Eventually, Guy A ended up making out with, groping, and fingering friend, and he gave her more alcohol and got her to give him a handjob. Guy B did NOTHING to stop any of this, he just sat and watched

This whole situation makes me extrememly mad. In my angered state I would love to kick the shit out of the both of them. But she doesn't want me to, and she doesn't want me to say anything to them. But I don't know if I can control myself

What do you all think I should do?

ratbastid

Advise her to go to the authorities. Both of these guys can be charged with sexual assault. Or, certainly one of them can, and the other is an accomplice.

But only do that with her permission. DO NOT get her involved in something she doesn't want to get involved with.

Be very firm that she get some counceling about this. This is NOT a time for her to retreat into herself and pretend that nothing happened.

MSD

I would encourage her to report them to the police, and ignore her and beat the living hell out of them.

Tell her that nothing that happened is her fault, because guilt is probably what's holding her back and preventing her from reporting it. These guys need some serious punishment, whether jail time or beating. A is guilty of sexual assault, and B is an accessory, and probably guilty of something else because it happened in his house.

Phaenx

Sounds like she should stop mixing drugs with alcohol, or live with the consequences.

You can still beat up the guys guilt free though at least, they aren't saints themselves.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Journeyman

Can someone explain the way intoxication works, either legally or ethically?

To be passed out and incapable of saying anything at all is clearly a case for rape. But to willfully drink untill drunk, and remain conscious, and then have advances made on you and neither saying No or discouraging it in anyway... well, to take a look at potential double standards (I say potential because I honestly don't know how this is viewed in the law) if I get drunk and hit a cop, I'm still gonna go down for assaulting an officer in spite of my being "in no state of mind to be making any decisions."

Ethically it's clearly wrong to take advantage of somebody significantly impaired, but she could be trying to tell you something about her pre-intoxication decision making when she says not to confront them about it.

analog

EDITED

I retracted this because a lack of initial information caused what I said to come across as really bad. My new response is below.

ElwoodBlues

She seems to think that she could have done something to stop it. There was only one thing she could have done, and she tried to. At 2:30 AM she called my cell phone, which was right next to my bed, but it didn't wake me up.

I keep trying to convince her to talk to some authorities, but she refuses. She says the three made a "vow of silence" not to say anything. Fucking bullshit. She also doesn't want me to hurt them, because it would break the "vow of bullshit"

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

phaedrus

That really fucking sucks. I don't know where you live, but I suspect it to be a college town. More likely than not there is a rape/sexual assault counseling center. If not there are toll free hotlines. She should talk to one of the advisors there. There is no question that what happened to your friend is illegal. As everyone else said, she was assaulted by Guy A and Guy B was an accomplis. You cannot force her to tell the authorities, but she should. Not just for her sake, but because chances are they will do this to someone else in the future. To spare the next girl from being a victim she should tell the authorities.

krwlz

Im gunna go with popular opinion here... Report them, if she wants it.

Shit like this enrages me man... I know how you feel. I know this kid that pulled the "If you love me, you will have sex with me" thing.

I had all I could do not to kill the bastard.

ElwoodBlues

She doesn't think this is all that bad for some reason......when I told her "Next time I see [Guy A] he's going to wake up in a pool of his own blood , black and blue all over" She didn't understand why I was so infutiated. I guess it kinda scares her, I'm never usually agressive at all.

No matter how hard I try, she doesn't want to report it. She seems to think her mother would find out she had been out drinking, and would no longer trust her (apparently her mother is adamantly anti-alcohol) I don't know how to convince her to go to the authorities

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

analog

I wish you'd have put this in your original post, because you didn't give any indication she was against it when you first described it, and now my post makes me look like a fuckin jerkoff. I'm going back to edit it.

Encourage reporting it to the proper authorities, and beat the shit out of them if you can. Good luck.

krwlz

I dont know man, its a tough situation. Sounds like she needs to re-evaluate her priorities. Reporting rape is definatly higher on the list then her mother finding out she was drinking.

Only problem being... Her mother (if I know mothers at all) will use this as a soap box to stand on when she says "Thats why I didnt want you out drinking".

But that will probably come waaaaaay after shit gets cleared up. For referance, how old is this girl?

denim

She must be really young to believe that kind of bs, agreed. Anyway, contracts under duress (such as being drunk) have no force.

denim

Gee, I can't imagine why.

ElwoodBlues

I would guess she's so adamant because shit like this happens.
I don't blame her, whether she was drinking or not, decent human beings don't pull that shit.

The wierest part of it all is she wasn't planning to tell me about it. We were talking, I told her that last night I had a wierd dream, where she got drunk and some guy took advantage of her. And that kind of hit her real hard and she broke down and told me about the whole thing.

By the way, she's 18. Maybe that's another part of why she's afraid of going to the police, thinks she might get in trouble for underage drinking

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

sixate

That's what you get for getting drunk and high.
If this was a friend of mine here's exactly what I would say to her:
Stay sober and you'll never be in a situation like that again. Continue to get fucked up, and you'll continue to be in those situations, and deserve each one of them.

This wasn't even close to rape so people shouldn't even think it. She gave a dude a hand job, and I'll bet that while it was happening she enjoyed every last second. Sounds to me like she probably had regrets after she sobered up, but who cares. She let herself get drunk and fucked up. What's she gonna do if she does go to the police... Tell them she was high and drunk and jerked a guy off and now regrets it so lock his ass up? Gimme a break.

Averett

So being fingered against your will isnt rape? Might wanna check out rape laws...

__________________
Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

soccerchamp76

If you go to the authorities, she being 18, would complicate it because she was underage drinking.

My view: skip the authorities and beat the guys to a pulp.

__________________
Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

ElwoodBlues

I understand where you're coming from, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I have to disagree with you.

First of all, she was not at all enjoying what was going on, she tried to call me so I could get her out of there. First he was groping her, and reached in her pants and started fingering her. After that he gave her more to drink, and forced her to give him a hand job. She has a psychological problem where she thinks bad things will happen if she says no, because she has an abusive relationship history. I find it rather offensive how you assume she was "enjoying every last second" She got home and cried for two hours non-stop after this.

Also, when someone is drunk enough, you can pretty much coax them into anything

Thirdly, she wasn't high. She got in a car accident two days ago, and was prescribed perkaset for the pain. Please don't assume one of my best friends is a retarded, slutty junkie. I came here to ask for help, not criticism

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

sixate

I fail to see where she resisted.....She certainly didn't resist giving a hand job. Is giving a hand job also rape? If so I shoulda been put in jail when I was 15.

Journeyman

"she tried to call me so I could get her out of there."
Yes, that is certainly quite an effort on her part.

"After that he gave her more to drink,"
Right, she would have had to say no to get out of drinking that drink!

"and forced her to give him a hand job."
Does anyone else think of "Stop hitting yourself?"

"She has a psychological problem where she thinks bad things will happen if she says no, because she has an abusive relationship history."
So she... she never said no?

What I (and ultimately a DA, most likely) will see is that the guy didn't know she didn't want to partake because she didn't convey to him that she didn't want to partake. Why is it assumed that because she tried to tell YOU she wanted to leave that THEY were supposed to know she wanted to leave.

Ultimately, even if the authorities get involved, they'll be unable to seek prosecution. You have to decide on your own whether or not the circumstances demand vigilante justice and whether or not vigilante justice will bring prosecution to YOU.

sixate

A little more info this time, but my opinion doesn't change. The problem is in the alcohol. If she never got drunk and high it never woulda happened. Fine, she's on pills from an accident, but she should know better. Never mix pills with alcohol. Drunk people who get taken advantage of deserve it. I'm not criticizing. I'm helping by telling you to tell her to never drink and she will never have that happen again. Can you honestly say I'm wrong....

redravin40

It sounds like the authorities might be problematic in this situation.
I do suggest you hook her up with one of the rape counseling centers.
They will be able to help in ways you can't.
If nothing else she will get the mental support that will keep this from becoming one more event in a traumatic history.

As to getting the little dickheads that did it, creativity seems like your best bet.
Keep in mind that beating them to a pulp could easily get you put in jail.
So....
Do you know any radical feminist groups you could give their names too?
Or how about RAPIST painted on the side of their house or car?

Be creative and you can make them pay for this for a very long time.

Holo

There appears to be gross negligence on her part which will hurt her case severely. I know you don't want criticism but why the hell is she drinking on Percocets????? and she was drinking underage. And lastly being a female why didn't she have anyone at all with her? If I was a girl drunk and high on percocets I would want someone with a bit of sober sense to watch over me. How was she getting home? Was she planning to drive?

I'm not saying at all she wasn't assaulted but the burden of proof is gonna be that they weren't drunk, and she was using percocets and drinking on top of them, a potentially lethal combo. The fact that the act is fairly benign and she did perform the act without threats or coercion hurts her as well, It appears she realizes her credibility will be shredded to pieces in a court of law and just wants to leave it behind her to avoid further embarrasment. It's shitty she was taken advantage of but she wasn't proactive in providing herself safety.

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

ElwoodBlues

Sixate, I do agree with you that she shouldn't have been drinking. When I found out she was going there to drink, I told her it was a bad idea.

But that doesn't change the fact of what they did to her. Before they started drinking, she told them how she was when she was drunk, and she set some boundaries. They broke them. They knew she didn't want what was happening, thats why they made this "vow of silence"

But I hate how you say she deserved it. No one deserves that. Well, except Guy A and B. Prison rape would be a great punishment for them methinks

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

Holo

Given her feelings about saying not saying no and the fact she's a female and she was up against 2 guys it could definitely happen. Her credibility is all the alcohol ruined for her. Drunk people can say no and even fight an attacker. The drink and drug combo ruins her credibility in the face of 2 sober witnesses. So I will have to say yes you're wrong in blaming the whole thing on the alcohol. It didn't help but you and I both knowyou can say no and fight while drunk.

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

mvassek

Personally I would leave it up to her to decide whether to report them or not report them to the proper authorities.

I would definitely beat the living hell out of both of the individuals involved. First they were both sober they had all of their faculties.

The one who stood by and allowed it to happen needs to be beat down to ensure that in the future he doesn't allow it to happen to anyone else. Allowing someone to commit a crime without reaction makes that person worthless POS in my book.

The person that committed the crime needs to beat down then violated with a bat. I would leave the bat sticking out of his posterior and leave him out on a busy sidewalk with a note as to why he was beat and violated. Leave him feeling as used and as humiliated as he left your friend.

__________________
Been There, Couldn't do that, No Money, Maybe next time.

I did get the T-shirt, but I've put on some weight so it don't fit.

It made a nice grease rag!

redravin40

Some other ideas....

Print up some flyers and post them in the area warning woman not to spend time alone with these two guys.

Print up letterhead from a law office that says they are being sued.

Cycler

Been right here in this situation not long ago. Except I was there and had the opportunity to throw the guys out before it went too damn far, it went far enough but that is another story. I felt guilty because I didn't realize to stop it sooner (I was in another part of the house). But like others have said she made the decision to drink, they made the decision to drink. Bad decisions are made by all involved when alcohol is consumed in large quantities. I encouraged my friend to go get help, had a heart to heart with the gentlemen involved, and followed my friend's lead in what she wanted done and or reported. Her body her decision. I don't like how my friend handled it but I will support her. I made it clear that I would not be a party to anymore of the bs that happened to her and them. <p>In short follow your friends wishes in this situation. It happened to her asnd the only thing you can do is support her no matter if you disagree or what. That is what friends have to do sometimes, be there to help pick up the pieces.

__________________
"I'm not even supposed to be here today."

"I assure you we're open."

phaedrus

Everything I am saying is true of Califonia law only, I've not certain if they are the same for other states.
Actually, it doesn't complicate anything for her. It does them. It was illegal for them to give alcohol to her. Their house, their party, their responsiblity. One more criminal charge against them.
An inebriated person cannot legal consent to any sexual activity (in CA at least) meaning it was indeed sexual assault (assuming it took place in CA) Not rape, but sexual assault.
No, I can't say you are wrong. But the laws (in CA) says none of that matters, it is just more bad news for the guys.

Seriously, this girl should talk with a local rape/sexual abuse counselor. In all likelihood, her mom need never find out about it because rape-shield laws are designed to protect her privacy. Even from her mother. Again, I don't know where you live, so I don't know what laws are applicable to this situation, but the counselor should. Also, you can look into your school's handbook, I'm sure they have rules against what guy a and b did, and punishment (likely expulsion) while at the same time protecting the girls privacy (which does not work, but it would not be come public-public information, only rumour which her mother need not hear).

Boo

Not to be rude crude and socially unacceptable, but based on the information provided....

Personally I believe she got off easy and really needs to learn from her experience. Fact is, she could have been raped, robbed and murdered. She is alive, she got off easy.

I am not siding with the boys either. Young and stupid is not uncommon in young men. In these days if she put up ANY resistance and they did not stop then they KNEW they were in the wrong.

The best thing you can do for your friend is to help her learn to NOT put herself into this kind of situation.

Some people have low self-control around booze, sex, porn, drugs, weed, money, food, and other ills and need to completely abstain from them. COMPLETELY.

__________________
Back button again, I must be getting old.

krwlz

I cant disagree more. What kind of degenerate scum bag takes advantage of a person in this state?

Say you, forwhatever reason, ended up intoxicated to0 the point where you were unable to make a consious decision, and sum big guy (even bigger then you) named bubba decided your asshole needed to be stretched a bit...

And he decided he had just the tool to do it... And you couldnt really do a damn thing about it... Would you still feel that you deserved it?

You come across as extrememly callous.

This guy posts asking for help, and you more or less call his friend "a retarded slutty junkie", in the words of elwood.

What ever happened to posting nicely, or using the back button?



The only good point you have made is that no, if you dont drink you have a seriously lower chance of ending up in a situation like this.

But, that doesnt change the fact that it wasnt her fault. Its was the dickhead who forced her into it's fault.

ElwoodBlues

Well, I'm making some progress here. I've convinced her to talk to her school psychologist. The guy who did this is like a fuckin dunce. He IMed her a little while ago and said "hey, i'm really sorry about what happened last night, wanna go on a date tomorrow?" FUCKING ASSHOLE

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

Pragma

Yes, there were a lot of things this girl did wrong (drinking underage, drinking on medication, drinking without someone there to watch over her and make sure she was ok) - and this is exactly why you don't want to drink on meds and you want to have someone sober keep watch over you while drinking.

However, I don't think "deserved" is really the right word for it. She became a statistic - another drunk girl who was sexually assaulted. She needs to take the advice of the people above: go to a rape councellor and figure out what, if any, her legal options are for prosecution of the two guys.

As for the two guys: Vigilante justice, while definitely an appealing idea, may very well get you in legal trouble. As for what you should do: Be a good and supportive friend, and try to get her to take action against the guys. Covering this up won't help anyone. And in the future, do not let her do this sort of thing again (drinking on meds and drinking without someone (preferably male) sober to keep watch over her.

__________________
Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

skier

except throwing up

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

WhoaitsZ

if a woman was drunk, and wanted to fuck, fine. but it sounds pretty clear she was forced.

it's a difficult deal. if you really think it happened as you say, report it. period. it sounds like she may need to be in detox, too. don't do a half ass job.

as for the guys. the one who didn't 'encourage more but didn't stop the other guy either', i would make sure he gets a reality check.

the other guy needs an accident.

the girl fucked up. but rape is rape. there is no justifying this action. anyone who date rapes deserve what they get and i hope the good vigilantes gives what they deserve.

ElwoodBlues

Well, shes making her own decisions about what to do. But I've decided I might have to dish out just a little vigilante justice. I can't hit them, and it has to be something that doesn't say that they raped her, because they "can't know I know"

I was thinking some strategically slashed tires, coupled with a few fresh key scratches

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

Journeyman

"I can't hit them,"
False. That's all I have to offer. Maybe you *shouldn't* do it right away, but find an excuse and use it.

ElwoodBlues

Well, I can hit them....but if I do she's just going to get pissed at me, which I dont want

__________________
I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05

Bauer's the man.

Craven Morehead

OK, my two cents. And you might not like it.

First of all talk with her about reporting this to the authorities. You can't force her, however does she honestly think she'll be the last girl these assholes will ever take advantage of? The next one, and there will be a next one, may not be so lucky to only have to endure some fingering and a hand job. Have her think about that for a while. Then consider how responsible she is.

If she won't do it and I doubt if she will if she hasn't by now, then you have to get in her face. And get in her face in a big way. You better tell this girl that she's playing in an adult world now. Her circumstances (abusive relationship, underage drinking, car accident) don't mean shit to some asshole is trying to get in her pants. If she wants to keep them out, then stay sober. Don't drink, don't drink on top of meds, don't make excuses for your behavior. You need to give it to her hard. She's lucky that something worse didn't happen. If she can't be responsible for herself in those situations, then she doesn't need to be out. For crap's sake, why do you think the legal drinking age is 21?

And this vow of slience bullshit is just that, bullshit. Its not against the law. Taking advantage of an intoxicated minor is however. If she doesn't tell the authorities, then you need to tell these asshats that you know and that they fucked up. Not confrontational. Just let them know that they are complete assholes. Who cares about offending these pieces of shit? She owes them nothing. Neither do you. Don't take a swing at them but they need to know that you know. And it was wrong.

It really isn't all that hard to know what to do. Doing it may be hard. But its something you and her have to do.