Microsoft to remove new Swastika Fonts.
 

I hope this hasn't been done



I'm fucking pissed.


Microsoft said Friday that the latest version of its Office software inadvertently contained a font featuring two swastikas, and said it would offer tools to remove and replace the offending characters from the program.

The swastika, which was made infamous by Nazi Germany, was included in Microsoft's "Bookshelf Symbol 7" font. That font was derived from a Japanese font set, said Microsoft Office product manager Simon Marks.

"It was discovered by one of our customers a couple weeks ago," Marks said, adding that there was "no indication of malicious intent."

The Redmond, Wash.-based software maker said that it had contacted various Jewish organizations about the font and said a utility would be immediately available on its Web site that would remove the characters from the system.


Most of us are aware of the swastika as an ancient symbol that is still widely used in Asian countries, but since it was used for a few years by Hitler it's going to be censored in the latest font pack.

What I don't get is why the hell we have to censor something that only piss off one group of ppl that will have legitimate value to another group. If you don't ike it don't use the damn font or at the very least don't use the swastika in the font. :rolleyes:

Linkay:
http://www.ntfs.org/comments.php?id=...fonts%2012--14


Most societies have had a version of the swastika.

http://pi.zen.ru/arhiv/2002/005/img/swastika.gif





Please don't move to Computers. I think it's more of a censorship issue than a technical one, and I'd like the whole board to be able to participate

I know it's very prominent in Southwest Native tribes and symbolizes the circle of life.

I guess it has something to do with that whole Holocaust thing.

I dunno, but losing most of my Jewish family to the nazis somehow makes me see things differently from you on this issue.

It's not "just a symbol"; to the survivors, it's a reminder of the horrors of the death camps, and to their relatives, it's a reminder of, well, nobody really, since they have nobody left to be reminded of.

I'm not saying Microsoft should ban it (or not), I'm just saying it goes a bit deeper than you might suspect.

The Celt one is goddamn hilarious.

I'm not trivializing that issue. I understand the reversed swastika as used by the Nazis is a symbol that is hard to look at for all people that lost ancestors to the Holocaust. Thing is Hitler only used the swastika for a very brief time period in it's total existence, and I disagree with the removal of it. Just let it sit there and don't use it.

Not to mention it's not even a majorly used font set. I just don't see why it must be stricken when the swastika has a legacy of better things than Hitler.



Again I'm not trivializing, but I am offended by the Cross, which is widely available thru the Charmap or typing ALT+0134 like so: † Many people are offended by the oppression that the organized christian religion has wrought upon the world; Yet the cross remains available. If a religious group requests the removal of the swastika I think the cross should be stricken unless it's needed by coders and available by special download. You see what I'm gettting at?

*edited to fix quotes*

It is amazing how sensitive people are to a symbol which was stolen from religion. Shows how utterly powerful symbols really are ..

I gotta agree with Holo whole heartedly on this one.

The only thing I will bring to the table is this:

The middle finger, here in America and indeed in some other places in the world, is a symbol of "fuck you". Just because it doesn't mean "fuck you" in your culture/country/religion, doesn't mean you shouldn't be sensitive to the fact that it DOES mean "fuck you" to others. That means, if you walk around with your middle finger up, in front of people who recognize it differently than you do, you should respect the fact that the difference in opinion exists.

I hope that made sense.

And Holo, I completely understand what you're trying to say, and I respect your conviction to say it.

Oh, and the reason the † is still in the main character set is because it's used in annotation, and legal stipulation, much like an *asterisk, such as: †My penis is four feet long.



Bottom of page:
†That's a lie. It's only 3 feet long.

Analog, you make a valid point. However, if we try to please everyone, no one will be happy.

Such is life. My opinion... Use the swastica for its intended purpose. If other people complain... well, its really not your problem is it?

Same goes for the cross.

As far as commercial uses however (fonts) I say we have two choices.

First: Remove every symbol that may cause the least little bit of uncomfort, or offense to someone. You will find youself very short on symbols, but it must be done.

Option 2: Leave all the symbols in everything. People that are offended should just grow some thicker skin.


Personaly, I would choose option 2.

I know, that's the real problem with this. I like your option 2.

Wow, some people could never go to a buddhist-country, that is clear.

http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/japanpage/themanji.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Religions

The swastika was originally used by Hitler because it was a sign of good luck. I am not in the least bit offended by it. Unless, that is if it has abvious natzi undertones.

I always liked the swastica... Especialy the neat little rows of em on American WW2 war-birds... (airplanes).

Sorry... tasteless joke I just felt the need to post.

for anyone interested, it's the ~ key

I agree with Holo also.

I think the biggest "fuck you" we could send to Hitler would be to reclaim the symbol for its original meanings -- life, the sun, etc.

If we censor symbols every time they become controversial we will eventually run out of the simple ones.

I recognize, of course, the importance of making sure that its use is not misunderstood as a hateful one. As for those that would use it for hateful purposes, the problem is their hate, not the symbol.

It is a differing idealized symbol. For some a reminder of atrocities for others luck life happiness. Unfortunately the corruption of a symbol by a few ruins it for everyone. While I don't like the symbol I understand it means different things to different people. It comes down to a respect issue. Some people are going to feel strongly enough to install the software patch others are not, choice, it all comes down to choice. At least repect is being paid enought to people to offer the choice as to whether to change it or not.

I have no problem with it, but then again I'm not Jewish. I just don't think that other symbols resembling swastikas should be censored because they do not carry the same meaning. I think I saw on TV once a documentary about a guy who decorated his entire house with variations of swastika-like symbols and got a lot of crap for it.

I fear what we made of it.

The taboo surrounding the swastika has kept its purpose and meaning alive. One cannot slay the demon by keeping it in a cage and throwing the key away. One kills with knowledge and faith.

I am all for tolerance. Never let it be said that I am intolerant. However, removing a symbol that's offensive to one particular culture and located in an obscure font pack is bending over backwards to be stupid.

It's a symbol. It only wields power if you acknowledge it. If you can't simply ignore it then *gasp of all gasps* just choose not to use it.

It's not like they put it prominently on a friggin' package of their software. It's buried back in a seldom used font pack that most folks wouldn't have even found if someone hadn't pointed it out to them.

I think it should be left in the software. Use of nazi symbology sickens me to the core, and I am entirely sypathetic to why people may wish it to be removed. However, it is a symbol that may and does have legitimate uses. It isn't the symbol itself that is offensive, it is the intent.

I have to disagree with you here analog. I will always have a middle finger, I shouldn't cut it off because It CAN be used to tell someone "fuck you." Even if people can use the font as a "fuck you," that doesn't mean it should be removed.

Wow I'm surprised no one has complained to Adobe about the cannabis paint brush they have in Photoshop.

Symbolism is very powerful. Church told everyone the 5 pointed star was bad :<

The cross never meant christian untill they took it.

Just like the nazi's took the swastika.

My opinion is "and we all know what opinions are like" , Remove the symbol , unfortunate that hitler made it a horrible symbol now.

I say remove the cross to. Cause it was used for torture. :< Damn those romans!

Ah well. What can we do?

Well I think Microsoft has handled it fine to this point. Right now if you have the particular software with the offensive font you can -A. download the fix and remove the font from your system or you can - B. Forget about it and use it or not use it as you would have before.

Those it offends don't have to have it around and those whom it doesn't bother don't have to worry about it.

I have to agree with Holo on this one. As it was said, these came from religon and 1 symbol was used aginst another. That was over 50 years ago - people still use the symbol so why the hell can't I have the damn font if I want it!

You know, one of these days, I'm going to start up a crazy cult, and we'll go out and murder millions of people. I'm going to use the ? symbol as our logo.
That'll really screw over the typography business.

:rolleyes:

Christ! Couldn't people find something more constructive to do than cause a big fuss over a font?

For once I'm supportive of Microsoft (I surprise myself!)
They responded to a criticism by allowing those whom it offended to remove it. Seems about the most sensible option to me! Bypasses all the issues of is it right or isn't it - those who want it can have it. Those who want it removed can do!

Oh. Ok. So if Sadaam had used the American Flag as a symbol of his dictatorship, does that mean the USA should give the flag up because it's been used by a bad guy? I don't think so.

BTW, the cross has been used by the KKK since they were founded. I guess the christians had better find a new symbol before they upset people, eh?

True. However I would be willing to bet the swastikas "disappear" in Office sp1 or the next version so you' d have to save the font set if you wanted to use it in the future. I just think it should remain. If it's not needed, great! But at least make it available in a widely distributed font pack for webmasters or users who may have use of the symbol. To kowtow to the fear of backlash from one group of people to deprive all others is wrong IMO.


It was derived from a Japanese font pack; do we go after the Japanese for it? Are they Nazis now? No, the symbol has a heritage lasting long before The Nazi Party, and I would hate to see a once positive and decorative symbol be removed from use in society just because of it's more recent affiliations.

i would be very offended to see a swastika on clothes or what not if nobody like Holo told me there are quite a few variations.

see, i had no idea. now I've learned that it was a tool strongly misused by an evil man.

now i can tolerate it without hostility or a grudge.

as a writer i am confused. um. what if i did a story about crime and i wanted to show a swastika? 'oh gee golly it offended someone so fuck me!'
?

censorship is lame. it just..... it shouldn't exist. if you're that sensitive you better grow up... us of the real world will push you down fast..

Z, Im glad you learned something new, and I agree about the censorship.

Now, no offense to you, but its a shame that most of America (and the rest of the world as well probably) remains so oblivious to these things.

Thats where the real problem in these issues starts. With the general public being completly uneducated in many matters.

hmm this is getting a bigger response in General Discussion than it did in Tilted Computershttp://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=38926

It is the most offensive of speech which needs the heaviest of protection from censorship.

edit: took out my trolling commentary

I agree. How can anyone say Microsoft is being dumb for allowing the censhorship of it? Note that I said allowed, not forced. If you want it gone, you can have it removed. If you don't care, you don't have to have it removed. If a customer wants a product to change, then Microsoft supplying the change is simply good marketing and customer service.

It would be different if Microsoft were forcing everyone to get rid of it -- but they're not. If it offends you, and I can see how it would some (holocaust survivors?), then download the removal. If it doesn't bother you, then don't. What's the big deal?

-Lasereth

I understand Holo's argument but still disagree with it. My grandfathers family was slaughtered by that flag and symbol. Besides its "real before Hitler" meaning, to me it will always mean the holocaust and slaughtering of innocent people. You want to leave it there fine your option. That symbol inspires hate in me no matter what intended meaning you have for it.

theusername: Your grandfather's family was slaughtered by a deranged madman and a brainwashed populace who corrupted an ancient symbol to use as their logo. The logo itself did nothing.

The fact that the Swastika was used by the Nazis should not forever taint the Swastika itself, such that people are scared of drawing it, looking at it, etc. As someone said above: What if the next genocidal conquering army takes the "?" symbol as their logo and slaughters massive amounts of people? The question mark won't be removed from the language, because people understand that it existed before that usage.

Edited to add: In case the above came off wrong, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was belittling the horror done to your grandfather's family, just pointing out the fact that it was people, not a symbol, that did the harm.

Haha, I like the celt one too. I also heard that Coke had it on their bottles for a while before The Nazi party.

This is what bothers me the most; It's not so much this particular incident, it's what this will inspire the censorship of in the future. Imagine the next version of Office making the word nigger a misspelled word in spellcheck due to it's racist connotations. I know that's a stretch but I think this is an unecessary stretch so it's not too farfetched. I shudder to think our race (the human one) is so stupid that we have to have decisions like this made for us. I mean yeah we all meet stupid people but this is scary. The symbol has value in it's original context, and I don't like it being censored from widespread use in office software due to something that briefly happened 50 years ago, no matter how horrible it was. We don't clamor for the removal of the word gay from our language since it's meaning was drastically changed from it's original definition. People need to look at things with their minds and not a knee-jerk uneducated reaction.


Education is the cure for all ignorance, and this was the spirit of this thread. Ignorance isn't bad when it's honest. We all can't know everything and it's easy to accept a digested version of things that aren't terribly important to us or just know mothing about a subject. It's poisonous when we struggle to remain ignorant and intolerant. Intolerance works both ways. This symbol is going to continue to be maligned unless someone keeps it alive.

Hey... I wanna start a pointles argument about something that Microsoft is doing.


I heard that Bill Gates eats German babies for lunch every Thursday.

Microsoft isn't the issue really. it's just fitting that they're the ones doing it. Plus all those posters above didn't seem to think it was pointless.

Making a satement that the "pin-wheel" thing doesn't belong to Hitler is all well and good. But in the USA... and I'm assuming you are in the USA... We don't like anything that reminds us of tragic events. Such as the WWII or 9/11. You understand? It woudl be like Microsoft having a font that involved towers and airplanes. That's gonna piss some people off. You understand? Yes, I know that the swastika wasn't a Nazi thing to begain with... we all know that. But neither were planes. Now, we look at those as a threat to society. Shit changes. So, make your statement but you have to understand no one will allow that symble in American culture because of the history it has.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I don't think it should be removed, but that doesn't mean we should blankly assume everyone else should "just deal".

Bigger man than I. I used to yell and then get in trouble, but I'm a bit better now.

OMG.......are you serious king?????

That is terrible...........you should get your ears checked.

lol

If it had never been put in the font set, no one would have ever noticed.

Yes I know that the swastika is an ancient symbl with different meanings. I personally don't give a rat's ass if Microsoft removes it or not because I myself will NEVER use one.

Holo I think you would have a different attitude if you were in those camps.
I think you would have a diferent attitude if your family was stripped naked then gassed to death. MILLIONS of men, women, and children were murdered simply because of their ethnicity, and this symbol played a large part in it.

The fact of the matter is the swastika means something different now. I am not Jewish, but after visiting the National Holocaust museum I'll be damned if I EVER draw or use a swastika.

Fair Enough. Just don't remove other's freedoms to use one.


So this maligned symbol marched all those people to their deaths by itself? No one here was in those camps so none of us can really claim being personally traumatized by the symbol. You may have a reaction due to ancestors who died under this Nazi-stolen symbol but unless you were beat down by neo-Nazis with the swastika in view you can't really claim personal trauma. And I stand by my point; this symbol was only used by the Nazi Party for like 20 years or so. The symbol is at least a couple thousand years old. It is still used to this day in the far east as a positive symbol. At least one Jew realizes this(link NSFW). Check out those pics. The Buddha is shown wearing a swastika in it's original position. Why must we attempt to bury a symbol with a rich history because of a brief affiliation with a crazed madman who decided to use it.

It doesn't have to.

That is your decision. But given the facts presented in this thread do not judge me for my usage of it. And don't hate the symbol for being hijacked. This topic reminds me of blaming a rape victim for being raped, which is basically what everyone does when they condemn the swastika because of it's Nazi "affiliation".


Some good swastika links:

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swastika_intro.htm


http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html


http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html

http://history1900s.about.com/librar.../aa120699a.htm

*edited to fix quotes*

Listen. The swastika was NEVER a symbol of evil until Hitler came along and took it for his own use. The cross is now a symbol of evil if you allow the KKK's use of it to influence your thinking. If we insist on allowing Hitler's use of the swastika to forever influence our perception of it, then Hitler has won. I, for one, think Hitler should not be allowed to hold so much sway over us.

i look on the back of my cd and hard drives and see two slots on each... "MASTER" and "SLAVE"

i go to the hardware store and need a new dryer socket... the clerk asks what type of "MALE" plug do i have to suit the new "FEMALE" socket

my 4 year old nephew asks his mother why there's napkins in the bathroom... being told they're for special occasions my nephew sets the table with them for Thanksgiving dinner...

and...

it wasn't Saddam they caught the other day... it was Nick Nolte, hired to be another Hussein double

You seem to be forgetting a main issue in this argument: it's NOT "removing your freedom to use it" OR causing "widespread censorship."

Microsoft has made the patch AVAILABLE to those who want it, but they are NOT forcing it on those who aren't offended by it. If it doesn't offend you, don't download it. Problem solved. Like I said earlier, Microsoft making an optional patch to remove the Swastika is simply good customer support and marketing. Can you imagine what would happen if they didn't? I can see it now..."Microsoft started the Holocaust."

They are offering the tools to remove it. REMOVE IT if you want to, leave it if it doesn't offend you. Argument over.

-Lasereth

The whole argument was not for or againt what microsoft its self was doing.

The point was that the swastica is generaly censored, and that censorship is wrong.

King: You seemed to have missed that point, and more then likely, its a good thing you have backed away from the thread. Reasonable and open minds make the best discussions... If your is not open, then I dont know that to tell you.

it's only pointless if you have no opinion on the power of symbolism.

I agree with Holo, trying to hide the symbol isn't going to make it go away, and some asshole who bastardized the symbol for less than a decade doesn't negate the thousands of years of religious meaning behind it.

I can quite beleive that the symbol will dissapar int he next issue of windows. They can't really get rid of it in a service pack - AFAIK fonts are not part of a service pack update, nor can they be. (I'm prepared to be corrected on that one). However, come the next major release of office, it will probably vanish. Problems will then come for anyone who has used it in something, quite possibly as an easy way to get the swastika to appear in an informative piece about the holocaust or something. It will then dissapear, to be replaced with...?

From that perspective alone, I don't think the font should change, but I do feel their patch should remain for those who don't want it.

Yeah, but you still don't have an argument unless Microsoft announces that it will be taken out. Making assumptions like that are sometimes correct, and that's fine, but basing an entire argument on something that you have no proof of isn't the way to victory. If they do take it out, then I'll definitely have a different opinion on the matter. But right now, they simply haven't suggested, implied, or said that it's going to be removed after the next SP or Office comes out.

-Lasereth

I totally agree with the original post and most of the posts supporting it. I would like to disagree that our freedom to use it is being taken away. Microsoft can include whatever fonts they want. They shouldn't have to include a character just because people want it. Of course it doesnt seem right to get rid of a character that has important positive meaning to a lot of people either, but we can always download our own fonts.

That said, it's unfortunate what Hitler's use of the symbol did to its meaning in our culture. My girlfriend has a beautiful necklace she bought in India but has to wear the pendant backards for fear that someone will go after her for wearing a swastika. It's also sad that Jewish groups in her home city of Atlanta complained to Indian temples and tried to make them take down their swastikas. I'd like to see how they would react to having the star of david removed from theirs.

No, but the people wearing the swastikas were the ones starving people to death and gassing them.

I never claimed I was personally traumatized by the camps. However I do posses a something called empathy. This means that I can imagine what another person's emotions may be in certain circumstances. Of course I could never comprehend the terrors of what happened in those camps. However I can partially imagine what it would feel like having to leave your home, having your family split up, starve in a concentration camp, then come home and hear that your family has been executed. All this was done by people wearing swastikas. Guess what? After an experience like that I would would despise swastikas.

You're absolutely right. The fact is that the people wearing the swastika murdered about 6 million Jews.

I would have to agree with holo. the issue really isn't the symbol but how people use them.

It honestly isn't that big of a deal, the patch is there for those who are offended by the symbol. Just remember that other people weren't blessed with perfect childhoods, and stories like the holocaust might run in their family. Microsoft is doing the politcally correct thing. It is as simple as this, if the symbol doesn't bother you then don't install the patch.

punx1325: If only it was as simple as that, but as someone else mentioned, the next service pack or release of Office will more than likely also have the swastika removed from it - and then you won't have a choice of "just don't install it" - it'll be gone.

Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter if it's "more than likely." There is no evidence to prove this as of now, and Microsoft hasn't suggested or even implied that they are going to remove it from all versions. Download it if you want, don't download it if you like swastikas.

-Lasereth

It wasnt THE people wearing THE swatica. It was people wearing a swastica. There is a differance.

Not everyone wearing a swastica, wants to go out and kill jews.

Incorrect.

For me, it's all about context. Holo's avatar, with the white swastika on blue background, I don't have a problem with. What I do have a problem with is this:

<img src="http://solo23.abac.com/davidcornell/CJam/swastika.jpg">

I also don't have a problem with southern or state pride, but I have a problem with this:

<img src="http://www.freedomforum.org/graphics/2000/06/illos/confederate.flag.flying.jpg">

I'm no born and raised southerner but I've talked at length to a few and they informed me this flag is the Confederate Battle Flag, and it represents to them to the spirit of southern freedom. Make what you will of that. There were actually 5 flags in the Confederacy IIRC, and this was just the battle flag. I think ppl who want to have it on their truck or whatever is fine. Again, it means something else to them today. I think those that are racist would be so with or without this flag in their truck or flying in their yard.

Again, it's all in intent. I changed my avatar to make it more classic to better demonstrate my intent better. Until you go up to one of those southerners and ask them what the rebel flag means to them you can't assume they want to chain up black people and work them as slaves. I'm sure many who sport this flag do feel this way, but I have met people who do not, and proudly display this flag.

I know all about it being used as a battle flag during the Civil War. Let me say again, I think state pride and southern (or regional) pride is a good thing, but carrying a symbol used by traitors is another. I won't say anything more on the subject since I don't want to threadjack anymore than I already have...

edit: Reviewing my reasoning shows me to be pretty inconsistent on my views on the two symbols. So sue me, I'm human :p