Gay couples adopting children
 

My mother has a male friend who is gay. This man was in a 12 year marriage in which he and his wife had a daughter. He is person that makes it a point to let everyone know wherever he is that he such. After the divorce his daughter lived between the two of them. Last week his daughter told the mother she was gay. Now the mother is infuriated feeling she won’t have grandchildren and blames the father for instilling this lifestyle in his daughter.

I personally have nothing against someone that chooses to be gay. (Yeah I’m one of the persons that believe it’s a choice vs. an inherited gene). I can’t say I exactly have any close gay friends, but each to their own as far as I’m concerned. Something I do feel split on are gay couples adopting children. I have this picture of 2 gay males adopting a baby boy; my first thought is to disagree with it. I’m not stating that it would be a home without love or security, but would the outcome be predictable?


This post isn’t to state how things SHOULD be. I’m just looking for feedback to hearing other viewpoints and hopefully consider a view I may have not thought about. Thanks for the input. For any that are gay out there it’s not meant to offend.

IMHO there's nothing wrong with a couple of gay people adopting a kid. They are people too, and just like with everyone else, there are some bad apples in every bunch. The rules of adoption and the screening shouldn't really be any different for two gay men than for a man and a women. I am not gay, nor have any close gay friends, but I can imagine what it must feel liike some times to be treated differently just cause someone is jumping to conclusions (whether the treatment is better or worse, I don't care).

Some people seem to be afraid that the gay parents would somehow "mess up" their adopted child, or "make him/her gay", but how would that be any different than fearing a straight couple would mess up their kid, or that kid turning out gay anyway (or, something actually bad, like a wife-beater, rapist or child molester)?

Dunno, its really no big deal to me. Just let the people adopt if they pass the screening, without worrying about their sexual orientation.

sounds reasonable.

(i've honestly no idea what criteria are required in general for adoption...but one thing that comes to mind is perhaps gay marriage should be legally allowed first? as in, if a married couple is quite more likely to be able to adopt, well then that obstacle would need to be removed first...)

Considering the number of children in need of loving adoptive parents, I think its societally irresponsible to prevent a couple from adopting on grounds of their sexual orientation. I don't think that people could choose to be gay (please tell me how I could go about becoming gay), and even they could, I wouldn't think that it would be a bad thing to be exposed to gay parents. And even if that exposure was a bad thing, kids are going to be exposed to gay people in the community anyway.

I honestly believe that a gay couple should be able to adopt. But I also agree with what Nikki said, that they should allow gay marriages first. I think that is part of the criteria for adopting children is that it has to be a married couple, if I'm not mistaken. I would rather a child grow up with gay parents than grow up with straight parents and have the kid one-hundred times more screwed up, "but at least he's straight" kind of a mentality that alot of people have.

Well its another area of the topic, and I think if I commented in any further detail I probably would offend some. I think its a choice how to act upon it is obvious. I understand where your point is and have weighed that side, I just humbly disagree.

I voted no. I think children need a father and a mother.

I know a lot of people raised by a single-parent who are just as well adjusted as people raised by a father and a mother. The government's not about to outlaw single-parenthood. I don't see how being raised by two mothers would be worse than being raised by one.

of course they should

also, having gay parents doesn't make you more likely to turn out gay, if tthat's one of your concerns.

Never quote my statistics, but I remember hearing in psych 100 that the percentage of people who were raised by a same-sex couple and end up homosexual themselves are less than the population in general.

I guess in a perfect world, I would like to see every child having both a mother figure, and a father figure.

This is far from a perfect world. Having two loving parents, is a far better situation to be in, than spending your early years living in some shitty orphanage.

If I understand you right, you're saying there is statistically less of a chance of someone turning out gay if they are raised by gay parents.

This sounds correct.

And imagine (setting aside this "choice" nonsense) that the child DOES turn out to be gay. Imagine how much easier it'll be for that child to deal with that, having a model right there of acceptable homosexuality.

And no, children don't need a model of acceptable heterosexuality. They get that plenty in the world at large.

I believe a lot of issues people have are family issues.
A lot of hetrosexual families are dysfunctional.
A lot of anger and frustration under the surface of many hetrosexual relationships, you know.
Many hetrosexuals stay together but create tense environments for kids to grow up in.
A lot of hetrosexual marriages are messed up, man.


Gay couples couldn't do any worse.

No, absolutely not, under any circumstances.

Sexual orientation shouldn't even be considered. It's all about the person and how they are going to treat the child. Case and point, I have a gay uncle and gay aunt, both of which raised a child. My aunt is an alchoholic and was abusive, but less openly gay. Her kid (my cousin) didnt go to college, barely finished highschool, is 19, doesn't have a job, car, license even...

My gay uncle's son is getting a 4.0 in highschool, is doing very well for himself, and has a loving, caring very openly homosexual uncle. Its my opinion that the only people who would be opposed to it are ignorant people who have had no exposure to anyone with a homosexual lifestyle that is a better human being than most heterosexuals.

Sign me up as a 'yes' vote. My sister is gay and has a son. She's due to have another child in March. She was artificially inseminated but I don't really think that makes a difference. Either way, I stand behind her 100 percent.

If they wanna adopt let them.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

How could a loving home not be better than a foster home? Same background checks everyone else gets.

I didn't have a father for most of my childhood and I think I turned out perfectly fine.

If the gay parents-to-be pass the same screen test that regular parents have to pass, I see no problems with it.

Will living in such a situation tend to influence a child's sexual orientation? Not if the parents are responsible, no.

I'd much rather see kids with gay parents than kids with out parents. So many kids are up for adoption these days, the more parents willing to adopt, the better.

For the first 5-8 years of his/her life, who cares.

Later on, It will become a massive burden to the child.

Its still not socially accepted in many places, including my city. We're old fashion, and i dont see that changing anytime soon.

Gay just doesnt fly well, and to have them raise a kid is just that much more *iffy*

I voted case by case, because there are some ways this could work out, but also many that couldnt.

I voted yes, my reasons more than covered here.

Would the people who voted no offer some sort of reasoning? I can't help but assume from the lack of support for their opinions, it is a rather ignorant reason.

"I voted no. I think children need a father and a mother."

Why? Millions of children are raised with one or the other, and these single parents often struggle to provide a nice home for their child(ren). And adoption takes children from a situation were they have NO parents, and AFAIK often can end up living in group homes their whole lives. Throughout high school I got a pretty bad image of group homes, in the instances I know of these children were most definatly not being raised "properly," most any loving couple could raise a child better while providing a more suitable home and loving environment.

Not every child who is put up for adoption is adopted, right? Then anyone should be allowed to adopt if they pass a screen-test.

And why is whether or not the child will be gay when they grow up even considered in this? Is that a bad thing? It shouldn't be unless you have something against gay people.
I understand that the human race needs to have reproduction to continue, but there will never be so many gay couples that the human race is put in danger, and even if everyone in the world became gay we could artifically inseminate.

my dad is gay and he did a hwll of a job raising me!
if it werent for him i hate to think what kind of condition i may be in today!
matter of fact,i learned more about life from living with my dad then i ever did from my christian mom!


christians tought me that everyone "secular" was evil!
my gay dad tought me that there is no reason to hate for such minute reasons!

in my experiance i would say gays make better parents than straights so they should be able to adopt!
dr.laura can kiss my ass!

What does it matter what sexual prefernce a parent has? They are human beings with thoughts and feelings totally seperate from sexual desires. A child can have two loving parents who just happen to be gay as well. With the amount of single parents in todays society the arguement that a child needs a father and a mother is void. Many children have one parent and grow up Ok if that parent gives a loving supportive environment. A gay couple have twice as much ability to provide that environment. I see no reason why a gay person cant be a good parent.

Yes. there have been no studies proving that a child raised by a gay couple is any worse off than one raised by a straight couple. and, to put it as best i can, i'd rather "take my chances" by letting a loving gay couple, who honestly want to raise a kid, adopt one, rather than placing them into the hands of an abusive straight couple for foster care (which, we don't like to admit, DOES happen)

Even though I don’t have friends on a direct level that are gay, one of my best friends father is. His parents got divorced before he was born for that reason. He is not gay. (He confided this info to me 2 years ago- I’ve known him for 11) Although I think he's become numb to it, I know he still feels shame that he said he had gotten over years ago. He said growing up it’s not anything he could have told his heterosexual guy friends "the guys". I tried to understand; why would 11-17 y/o heterosexual males give him shit just because his dad is gay? He started talking to him 3 1/2 years ago off and on because he said when he first really clicked on to what it meant when he was young he didn’t want anything to do with him (until recent years)

I met his dad and I saw him as an extremely kind and honorable person. A couple of his friends were there and I felt a little discomfort in how they were looking at me-- but that obviously is a personal issue on my part. Other than that I feel bad for both of them because I can see it’s a personal issue to my friend that eating away at him and for his dad because I know he loves him very much (or at least what I saw) They don’t speak now.

So hers the only personal experience a friend with one gay parent that was raised by the straight parent, and the daughter of an acquaintance who spent a large portion of her time with the gay parent and is gay. Is there something wrong with that? No.

I know Rosie O’Donnell has several children and appears to be providing a great home for her children. The comments about a family with heterosexual parents are absolutely right. That situation doesn’t stop alcoholic moms, abusive fathers, painful divorces, and an assortment of other nightmares. In my case; having 2 hetero parents that provided a good home, with me still ending up getting suspended for fighting left and right and other darker, things. If it weren’t for the rude awakening I got in the service; Id probably is dead right now. So I know first hand having a conventional situation doesn’t mean someone is going to turn out good.

My question/point/ or whatever stems from what I saw with the girl and what I experienced at my friends dad's with his friends. So it out me on the highway of generalizing which I truly don’t like.
In the same perfect world that’s been described; is it the same perfect world where a majority of peers befriended growing up would be totally accepting and not offer ridicules and similar; creating another element that a teen already faces now.

It can be said sure they're not people one would want to have as friends anyway, but I don’t know how far the isolation would go. A person can hear some pretty cruel things as the blossom into a person, from what I gather sometimes the scars can run deep. The other aspect is in watching this lifestyle does that detract what the child would have been through learned behavior. (This is why I brought up the choice issue--I worded different than I wanted to or should have.

Analogy- in Star Trek there was a prime directive that prevented involvement with a species development to protect what would possibly naturally occur.

If there were a little boy being raised by my friend’s dad, there would not be an absence of love or security. There would however be a situation that’s an atmosphere in which it would be hard for me to see the boy not becoming gay himself.

Personally I strive to be a nonjudgmental, open minded person. I suppose I fall into the ignorant percentage that’s been commented on, but I’m doing my best to understand. I know a closed mind will miss endless chances to learn and grow in life. Hearing feedback in this format is a tool I often use for certain areas I feel I need guidance from others that may have suggestions on how to understand certain things (which is great about this forum) thanks for the input each post is valued.

Have there been any studies into this area? Do you know any that have been in this situation?

(I hope those questions don’t come across as me being a smartass, I sincerely and respectfully want to know for knowledge sake-thanks)

After reading the posts over again; a realization occurred in the fact my own thinking in this area is the same irritation I get when dealing or hearing someone who actions or beliefs are prejudice against an ethnic group, religious beliefs, or sex. I find such beliefs to be ignorant, and yet I’m there as well. To lower myself; I don’t seem to have any problem with lesbian erotica. So it appears it’s time for me to do a self inventory I suppose.

This is the first thread I wish I wouldn't have post. Although it’s provided me with thoughts to evaluate, I think the subject probably shouldn’t have been brought up now. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I think any person willing take a child into their home and love and care for them should be able to adopt.. There are thousands of kids waiting to be adopted. A gay couple and take raise a child just as good as a straight couple, and more children are being put up for adoption than are being adopted, I think we need to take any step nessesary to get these kids into good homes.

I also think gay marriage should be legal. I have no idea what happens if a gay couple that share a house and belonging seperate, who gets the house, if children are adopted are there visitation rights? There needs to be some kind of legal agreement to sort this out.

I vote yes.

While those with 'yes' votes have raised some really good points, I'm still going to vote 'no'. I don't think it's fair on the kid, they'll grow up to a life of being teased at school because of their parents (sad, but true) there'll be complications when they decide they want to track down their biological mother or father, it's juts going to make life tougher for the kid than it needs to be. I'm sure many gay people would make superb parents who would raise their kids really well, but I still don't think it's fair on the kid.

Nonsense. It may look regrettable after the fact, but that's because a doorway to a new area of self-evaluation ALWAYS looks like a bad idea. It's not, though.

I applaud your openness to other viewpoints. And I, as a TFP member, am proud of this thread.

That's a silly excuse for not letting someone adopt. Should we not let funny-looking people adopt, or people with funny-sounding last names? Face it, kids will find something to tease other kids about regardless of their family situation.

Quote:

there'll be complications when they decide they want to track down their biological mother or father

Why would this be any more complicated than any other adopted child tracking down their bio parents? Often, gay couples adopt very openly and the bio mother at least knows of the situation. Again, potential complication is no reason to deny a child a loving home.

yes, we're all people.

Also, are single people allowed to adpot children?

I'm just wondering how the parents being homosexual is going to make this any harder then it already is?? I am only asking because from what I have seen (which is only in movies) this information is not something you can just go into a building and get with ease even with straight adopting parents.

I haven't voted yet, because I was reading, and then quoted this because it just caught my mind's eye. I will however be voting yes on a case-case basis. Meaning as long as they pass the test, then they should be able to adopt, just as any other situation! As for the mother/father comments, I would just like to say that just because the couple may be gay, doesn't mean they don't assume the same kind of roles that any couple has. Meaning there will be a mother figure and father figure when it comes to issues and how they are handled.

I know a woman who is gay and is raising two children, one boy and one girl. Her son is as cocky as any teenager I have met, and I will admit he holds some grudges, but she is his mother and he respects her as such. Kids get made fun of for many many reasons, and yes this might be another one, But if these kids are raised by responsible parents then they will be able to deal with it just like any other kid who's parents work at a dive bar, or have drinking problems....or whatever the kids come up with to make fun of them for!!

I also agree that the kids that are rasied by loving parents, and deal with these issues on a daily basis and can still love and be happy and show their kids its possible no matter what, have a better chance at being more level headed and less judgemental in the future which in MHO couldn't hurt a bit these days!!

Sorry that was a bit long, but there you go... ;)

And this is a great topic and I for one am glad to have been a participant

absolutely...any kid in a stable loving home is better than in foster care or an abusive "str8" home. Gay couples generally are richer than hetero couples as a group, and maybe even more nurturing as most gays I've known are more in touch with who they are than most hets I've known. If the mom is mad she wont get any grandkids, too fucking bad!!!!!! I really despise this parental expectation to continue the bloodline. Family should be about love and what you consider a family should work for you. My daughter isn't legally or biologically mine but damned if she doesn't call me Daddy and I don't care if my dad tells me I'm the last male in the family line. All that shit is less than worthless to me. Best thing any child can ever have is loving and stable parents.

Apparently once you fall in love with someone of the same sex you are no longer a human.

I don't get it. All kids need is love and compassion to be raised right. I've never met a homosexual that was not capable of love and compassion. I think it comes out of the fear that all gay men are petaphiles. That if two gay men adopt a boy they will molest it.

And really the only harm that could come out of this is two lesbians will teach their adopted kids to like all that shit Lilith Fair music. And the last thing this world needs is Jewel to become popular again.

I don't think the problem is that some child has gay parents. I think the problem is that homosexuality is still pretty taboo in the country, and a lot of people are biggoted against it. So when there is a child who is raised by gay parents, he/she will probably get a ton of shit for it by his peers, their parents, and any other disgruntled homophobe in the community. This is the problem with the situation, but I do not think it is a valid reason to hate on the idea. The more often it occured, then the more familiar it would be, and eventually it wouldn't weird so many people out and the problem would be solved.

I think some other people might have covered this in previous posts, but now I have spoken!!!

I agree with you meepa, in the sense of if it happens more it will be less of a problem. I also think that the children who are in these situations may come out stronger because of their fight. I'm not saying let's let homosexual couples adopt to rid the world of stereotypes, just that I feel that if they are fighting to be parents they will fight to teach their child how to stand up and be heard, not stampled over....I hope that reads ok ;)

I am suprised no one has addressed the idea that the girls mentioned by Sun Tzu's first post is gay. If in fact being gay is genetic (which I believe it is) then of course she has a higher chance than most of being gay herself. Her gay father did not "make her" that way. He may have just made it easier for her to accept her own sexuality.

As for adoption, absolutely yes! Gay people have a huge burden to face in society -- not being easily accepted. I do not know a gay man or woman that wishes that burden upon their children. They desire their children, just like straight parents, to grow up happy & healthy, and to be productive members of society. Not one of my gay friends (and yes, I have many) have raised their children to be gay themselves.

i think gays should definetly be allowed to have kids. like many have said a loving home is better than the orphange or foster home. i can see circumstances that could hurt the child becuuase of the parent s being gay like being teased at school.I heard a girl once say that she traumatised by her father having sex with his partner in the next room right after their parents broke up. but really both of those problems really arne't related to the father being gay as much as problems in society and bad parenting respectfully.

NO! do you have any idea how much the kid would get harassed? that's not something you can put on a kid who doesn't know has no choice in it, they will be affected by it for the rest of their lives. Gay couples aren't natural... they can't physically produce kids, therefore something tells me they aren't meant to have them...

A tough subject demanding political correctness; voted no. I will admit all I have to go on is how I think I would react or what kind of life I think I would have had. Ive accidently walked in on my folks in the past; not that I cared to get anymore of the accidental glimpse of the site- if it would have been my dad going at it with another man. . .no comment

I guess Im a little backwards, but thats due to me not knowing anyone who is gay. Do gays truly try to adopt? Im not inquiring to ridicule anyone, but is anyone that voted yes gay themselves? Im just wondering what their perspective is; if they see any potetnial problems that mya differ from someone who is straght. Would they hide their physical affection in front of the child; keeping that aspect "hidden". Kind of like the conventional goodbye kiss in the morning when spouses go their seperate directions and such. Let's say a boy doesnt turn out to be gay and he has 2 gay fathers; will they go to football games and cheer for their son? Would their son even be on a team.

they are pointless scenerios that dont mention anything about love, but I can think of thousands more just like them that would give me a difficult time, but again it boils down to me not understanding. I suppose beyond everything if a person is true to their word and themselves everything else is secondary and workable.

If anyone here is gay and deosnt have a problem saying so Im trying to understand when you say a person doenst choose to be gay. SO is it just like me for instance not really ever making a chioice that a females body turns me on; they just do. If I were gay males would just do it for me? Or is it a curiosity thing that one day a person decides to act upon? I dont understand. Thats not to say Im not trying to.

That is fucking bs and provokes me immensely. How about dentists? Ugly people? Poor people? Teachers? (i grew up with teacher parents, but it turned out ok in the end). As previously mentioned, kids will always tease and harass each other, to conquer discrimination against homosexuals, we have to face the problem. In Norway adoption is legal (or at least accepted, one of our most popular authors are living in a lesbian relationship with a child), we are not facing disturbing numbers of cases involving children raised by homosexuals being harassed.

Your arguement is nothing but gay bashing camouflaged as concern for the children.

With regards to the original poster, who believes that homosexuality is a choise, I wonder how he can explain a good freind of mine who have been in love with girls since her crush on her female teacher at the age of 7? Is this just an example if an early infection of teh gay?

My father is gay. He didn't come out until my brother and i were in our teenage years. I'm just fine. If anything my father's gayness only served to make me a stronger person. I developed a keen understanding of just how much fear and misunderstanding play a role in how people treat eachother. It is easy to be homophobic until you actually see that homosexuals are people too. I voted yes, because to vote any other way would be a proclamation of ignorance, an endorsement of or pandering to that ignorance.

I voted YES, but have nothing additional to add to the insighful YES votes that have preceeded me.

Much as i would like to say "Absoluty!" i think that like adoption is now for hetero couples it should vary case by case.

look i see whre you guys are comin from with the whole they'll have a rough time growing up if their parents are gay but do you honestly think they'll have an easier time in a foster home or orphanage?

They should be allowed to raise children. Anyone who can raise a child with love and the kids have food, water, shelter, and school should be able to raise a kid.

If the parents are gay or straight is obviously up for question on what their kid’s sexuality may be, but considering how many simply awful shit holes kids are raised in more than justifies some odd living environment.

Right now, like in our whole past, kids need love and an actual home. Our arguing over if gay love is right or wrong while kids are living or dying in bad environments is nothing short of stupid and ridiculous.

And, my ‘brothers or sisters in Christ’ don’t you think taking away free will is just a tad bit fucked up? You’re wanting to rid man of the of about the only gift God gave us besides life is, in a word, lame.

oh yeah. the whole 'we don't want the kids laughed at' bit is ludicrous. kids are made fun of. accept it. life happens.

if you're fat, they make fun of you. if you're skinny, white, black, gay, straight, nice, cruel, christian, muslin whatever. if you're a fucking human people will make fun of you.

use your time on protecting them against things you can actually do.

Some of this has been said before, and I echo some of those thoughts, but here is my viewpoint.
I'm for it, but with a caveat that there needs to be more checking the couple out before letting them adopt. Sorta like race can be used as a factor in college admissions, but in the reverse. Being gay should not exclude a couple that wants to adopt, but should be a negative factor.
Reasons for my caveat:
most gay couples don't last as long as marriages. Most have not had a marriage ceremony, and the state should view them the same as a nonmarried boyfriend/girlfriend.
Reasons I think it's okay:
There are alot more kids that need adopting than there are parents who want to adopt, especially kids that aren't white infants. If someone wants to love them and take care of them, I'm for it.

I don't think you could be raised gay. Just like I don't think any life changing experiences could make me gay, or gay people heterosexual, I think it's something one is born with. I bet it's not easy being gay(cue Kermit), and Gay parents that really loved their kid would want what's best for them, and so I bet would try, if anything, harder than other parents to not raise gay kids.

None of which is going to change until there are enough families like this to make it more "normal."

Obviously, I voted yes.

In America; "land of the free" why have equal rights in this area been so late to be recognized? On homosexuality itself I admit to not understanding it, but am the first NOT to say "its wrong", because I comprehend Im not any kind of entity to make such a judgement. There are IMO, a couple additional considerations that a gay couple may consider in adopting, but the same for a single parent as well.

As far as explaining the choice factor: its admittingly difficult for me to do, because even if Im humble about it; the potential is there that some are going to read it wrong. Im already seeing this conversation titering on setting some people off. So is it possible to give an opinion, or to ask for ways to attempt to understand without it being taken as "gay bashing". I will say this; for this to ever become an accepted reality, conversations like this are going to HAVE to happen; and the reality is that there is probably just as many "ignorant" people in high places that will fight to prevent this as there are "enlightend". There is a philosophy in exsistence that when an indivual becomes inflamed even by what is seen as back asswards mindsets that their power is given away, the point missed, and nothing changed.

Ths is only a guess because I'll attempt not to assume what someone else is thinking: if sexual preference is not choice it is therefore a genetic predispostioned biomarker of life. I've been doing research (internet which is admittingly limited) and most of the work in this area that I found in stating the genetic factor were gathered by Gabriel Rotello. I was unable to find full documented studies; in any can find the link or suggest published sociologic, medical, or anthropologic studies Id be greatful if you could suggest them. Thanks.

Some quotes that stood out on this search were:

To date, no researcher has claimed that genes can determine sexual orientation. At best, researchers believe that there may be a genetic component. No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, has been connected to genetic markers to date. —PFLAG (Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians And Gays), "Why Ask Why: Addressing the Research on Homosexuality," 1995

[Dr. Richard] Isay's goal in endorsing the genetic determination of homosexuality is to ensure that homosexual men are not pathologized simply on the basis of their same-sex desire. It is his hope that acceptance of the "gay gene" will imbue homosexuality with the same "natural" status accorded reproductive heterosexuality. (Perhaps this is why he disregards the abundant literature criticizing the research he cites.) However, this strategy can never work, because what Isay ignores, or believes he can somehow bypass, is that reproductive sexuality (conflated with heterosexuality) is the absolute bedrock of biologically deterministic theory. Without the cornerstone of a biologically inevitable reproductive sexuality, there would be no mechanism to guarantee the transmission of genes, and that is precisely the point of biological determinism. The biological inevitability of reproductive sexuality is the principle without which biological determinism would fall apart. Reproductive heterosexuality is not simply another trait that is genetically transmitted; it is the foundational principle of the entire theory. It must be presumed as the imperative of life itself for the transmission of biological traits to even be possible. Given this fundamental and exalted position, it is difficult to see how reproductive sexuality and homosexuality can ever be presumed "equal" but "different" within a biologically deterministic framework. The logic of biological determinism can only debase homosexuality as deviant—precisely the position Isay is striving to counter. —Ona Nierenberg, "A Hunger for Science: Psychoanalysis and the 'Gay Gene,'" differences, Vol. 10, No. 1

In the early 90's, three highly publicized studies seemed to suggest that homosexuality's roots were genetic, traceable to nature rather than nurture. . . . More than five years later the data have never been replicated. [And,] admits biologist Evan Balaban, "I think we're as much in the dark as we ever were." —John Leland and Mark Miller, "Can Gays 'Convert'?" Newsweek, p. 49, August 17, 1998

To my mind, a more parsimonious and unifying evolutionary explanation for human homosexual behavior is that it is a neutral, concomitant by-product of direct selection for a more generalized trait such as sexual pleasure. In line with this reasoning, it will frequently be manifested for no other reason than sexual gratification. In such cases, homosexual behavior will have no evolutionary "function." So long as such interactions do not interfere with the actors' reproductive efforts, they will not be selected against. As part of a pool of neutral behavioral variation homosexual behavior could, however, be co-opted to serve any number of sociosexual roles (e.g. alliance formation, reconciliation) that mght incidentally augment the participants' fitness. In such cases, homosexual behavior could best be described as an "exaptation," that is, a characteristic which was not built by natural selection for the fitness-enhancing role that it currently serves but instead was co-opted for that role. Although exaptations are not the products of direct selection, they may eventually come under positive selection because of their beneficial effects on fitness, at which time secondary adaptive modifications will occur. —Paul L. Vasey, commentary on "The Evolution of Human Homosexual Behavior" by R. C. Kirkpatrick, from Current Anthropology, Vol. 41 No. 3, June 2000

The genetic theory of homosexuality has been generally discarded today. . . . Despite the interest in possible hormone mechanisms in the origin of homosexuality, no serious scientist today suggests that a simple cause-effect relationship applies. —William H. Masters, Virginia E. Johnson and Robert C. Kolodny, Human Sexuality

One of the central things here [in a discussion of "gay gene" research] is the feeling of love towards other persons. I think that a central "force" in human evolution [has] been the evolution of love. That feeling [has] been the cement in a whole lot of human relationships, man-woman, parent-child, among close kin, among friends etc, etc. In fact, in all those relationships that makes us human, and is the foundation of all that came after in terms of culture, arts, science and you-name-it. I think that the only thing that makes homosexuals different is that they have chosen to include sexual desire and perhaps satisfaction in the love between to persons of the same sex. In short, the only thing setting a pair of homosexuals apart from a pair of same sex friends, is that the homosexuals have sex together. . . . I think it is an extremely reductionist approach, to discuss homosexuality as different and excluded from other forms of sexuality and emotional b[o]nding between humans. If you want me to be honest, then I will even go as far as to say that approach is so reductionist, that it in my eyes is not honest science anymore. If you want to understand homosexuality biologically, then you have to understand in terms of the total[ity] of human sexuality and emotions. —Henrik Ernoe, posted in soc.culture.nordic, March 17, 1997


For me it doesnt truly matter, and I believe that when others read my post they connected dots in what they may have thought I was stating. Whether it is choice or not; agree or disagree; I never said that such a choice was WRONG, only that I believed it to be a choice. In the struggle of what may be the last battle in human rights there certainly will be more frictional points than that and if the slightlest care exsists in contributing to the understanding of this; doesnt the possibly exsist that writing off such beliefs (which very well could be do to a lack of being educated in it) as ignorant or "nonsense" continue to isolate or further delude understanding of what the frustration is about. Then again I didnt hear anyone state that ignorant people are evil. Maybe they should be screened too.

Well I believe you make a good point, and I see that we don't really disagree. I said that homosexuality is not a fad, you said it is not genetically determined (that would indeed seem a bit odd, as the "gay genes" couldn't possibly be an advantage in the evolutionary race). Those statements are not in conflict.

What I learn from the gay people I know (about 5 persons), is that most of them have been gay or bi all their life. This is what i base my opinions on. People often wish they were normal, but can't help their sexuality. I think it is obvious that homosexuality is not a free choise for all.

In my opinion, saying that you think being gay is a choice sounds like you think that a person one day just went "OK, I'm gonna be gay now." I'm glad you cleared up what you ment by that. But that isn't the point of this thread.

I'm still waiting to see a "good" reason for voting no... saying the child will be ridiculed at school isn't a very valid reason, and certainly isn't reason enough to ban 2 people from brining a child into their life. I'm sure race occasionally results in riducule at school... should non-majority raced people not be allowed to have children?
It is the fault of the society, not the parents, that the child may be ridiculed. The society needs to be changed rather than the gay parents be punished for "the way they are."

That question seems a bit unnecisary to me... of course gays truly try to adopt. Not all of them of course, but some gay couples surely do. I don't currently know any gay people, but there's no reason to assume they are any different than any couple other than their genders are the same. They are still human, they don't cease to love because they are gay, and I don't imagine that the desire to raise a child would be effected.

I may not be gay, but I am bisexual, it's something that I have been since before I knew that there was a word for it, so I am a believer that it's something that you are born with. I'm not sure that its genetic or just something that develops differently durring pregnancy, but I know I didn't chose to be this way I just choose to except it.

And as for being harrassed. No one liked my totally hetro mother, because she didn't like children and couldn't communicate well with them and she has always been overweight. So I was teased constantly because of that. I was also a chubby kid and was ostrisized for that. I had a total of one friend most of the time growing up and she wasn't even nice to me. And this is just the stuff I went through in school with a hetro set of parents. I think if everyone thinks back they will all remember a time when they or someone they know got picked on. Kids pick on kids, no matter what. I know that I grew up and now I am in a stable marrage where I am loved and I lived through it. I think that the kids being harrassed is just a lame excuse. I could open up the whole nature over nerture debate, but I think I have probably rambled enough. I just get so upset when people think there is only one way to go through life and no other options.

From the ages of 7-12 human beings learn programs that affect their behaviors that they will carry with them into adulthood. Some are auto pilot programs that are run from second nature because of being practiced every day. This in turn can lead to dysfunctional actions that hinder a person to create the things they want in life. Things like trust issues, lying, being guarded to the point of severe introversion. Due to the fact that gay couples NOT being the norm for the past few decades; the abuse mentioned are occurring in conventional families or even two divorced parent sharing custody.

The creation of these programs: fathers and mother molesting their own children or allowing it to happen, parental desertion, doing drugs in front of or with their children, severe physical or mental trauma (when I worked in an ER in San Diego, I worked triage one night with a mother bringing her 1 y/o baby boy in for what she said was stomach pain- I had to check his temp rectally as with all infants. . .his genitals were one giant blister as if someone had submersed his bottom in scalding water… that still fills me with rage thinking about it) So in essence it can be looked at in this view; social acceptance has progressed from what it was. Certainly gay parental adoptions didn’t occur on a large scale if at all until recent times. With all the nasty things that happen to children data would definitely show that abuse in one form or another is a common occurrence in conventional families. So how are they truly any better? I understand that point.

Its been stated multiple times here that being ridiculed isn’t a valid reason for consideration, (thank you for noting it as your opinion) maybe it would, maybe it would not. I think only the individual could say. In the same perfect world that’s been mentioned in this thread, the children would go through k12 with no issues at all because all they encounter are evolved beings and look past such “nonsense”. But as also mentioned it’s not that world and IMO there is little doubt that the child will receive such. Severity would vary as would reaction form person to person as we are all built differently. You sound like a strong powerful minded person and not taking anything personally is probably a great trait you carry, but “Sticks and stones” will go only so far with some. For me I’ve received words that struck my heart harder than steel ever could, though usually form someone I care highly for.

I also think not holding any weight to what they are up against is similar to this example: breaking up with an intimate partner and feeling pain. Why should anyone feel pain over that? There’s people starving, dying all over the world and we’re feeling pain over a simple break up? Such pain really isn’t important in the universal scheme of things right? IMO the pain anyone feels over anything is valid and significant. Could something similar be applied to an adult who is gay, but “still in the closet”? Why be ashamed? Why not be proud of who they are? Not to mention the fact they are adults not on the playground anymore. Are they fearful of what others are going to think? Why is that so important in adult life to some; if not more? Perhaps they are afraid of the potential mental aguish that could follow “coming out”. That seems it would be mentally and spiritually painful in and of itself to feel as though hiding is necessary. Do you see that pain as being invalid?

What is the reason/ or reasons why gay marriages and adoptions aren’t totally legal across the board in America? With civil rights being so vitally important why is this issue where it’s at still? If it boils down to ignorance then what can be done to change that? When asking about valid reasons for or against are you considering what is important is going to differ from person to person? It’s a valid question, but it sounds as though you want a clinical answer; if so why it isn’t common law in America. Where’s the validity that stops gay couples from adopting? There also appears to be allot of people that voted no, and don’t care to give their reasons fir such. This also raises the foundation of your question.

I don’t recall asking if gays truly adopt, I know Rosie O’Donnell has several adopted.

HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why the hell not? I don't understand how people can say "It'll make the children gay".. Then explain all the gay people in the world with heterosexual Parents.. how do you back that up. But that theory they should be straight.

I like Art's post as well. Life already gets fucked up to the max in straight homes, so what risk would we be taking by letting Gay couples adopt?

Someone mentioned that the children will be picked on? I don't care WHAT environment the child grows up in, they will get picked on. Hell if you grow a child up in the PERFECT environment, THAT is what they'll get picked on. I got picked on for my glasses, and for the brand that my glasses just so happened to be. If a kid trips and falls, and someone sees it, guess what? That one trip may very well follow them throughout the rest of their school years. Gay parents doesn't seem right. Think about black people that were the only ones in a white school? Surely they got picked on it, but guess what? They did it. Now when you go to school and see a black person, do you think "I'm going to make fun of him now" I doubt it. My nieghbor was one of those people that was the only black guy in an all white school. I think nothing bad about it now.. Who is to say these kids will be?

To adopt a child isnt' cheap. "A Fuck for a Buck" could get someone a child, someone who simply should NOT have children. Yet to adopt, its much more than a buck. This means that they can afford the child. This is a HUGE issue too! If a family can't support the child, the child loses out big time. So the way I see it, if a gay couple can afford to adopt, they have already proven they can support the child.

My other thought is this. If they can pass the requirements, then what exactly is the problem here? I mean they set those requirements up to adopt a child, to exclude someone because of their sexual orientation sounds just as bad to me as saying black people should be slaves again.

Once again... HELL YES!!!

This is a freaking joke. Of course gays should be able to bring up kids. Most of them are of sounder mind and spirit than alot of the pathetic parents out there. All the gay people i know are pretty articulate responsible people who have a good grasp of what is going on. Think about majority of predominantly white, hateful trash out there raising thier spawn to have the same degenerate values as themselves. I went through school with two different people who's parents were gay. They are both very well adjusted people. Both of them are straight and very popular too. Sure, through junior School thier was a little idiotic name calling. But they got through that fine. Just the same as anyone who has any outstanding attribute (physical, mental). In fact, it probably gave them strength of character. Of course gay people should be able to raise children.

Sun: Sorry, that last part wasn't directed at you. I've edited it accordingly.

AlmostAugust, sadly this isn't a joke. To you and me and many others it is a clear "yes" vote, but there are people who don't feel that gay people deserve the same rights as straight people (I AM NOT implying that everyone who voted no has that opinon, but none the less, it is very likely that at least a few of the no voters do.)

I see no problem with a gay couple adopting. I have several gay people in my family and they are wonderful parents. They did not adopt but "came out of the closet" after being married for some time. This seems rougher to me because not only do the children find out their parents are not "normal" but then they end up going through a divorce.

Why not give the children being adopted a chance to give their opinion and if the couple passes all the screening and is suitable let them adopt.

Neither are straight couples...If you reduce us to our original animal state the only natural sex is male/female with the female taken from behind. If you ever got a blowjob or eaten pussy or done it missionary, or anything else out of the animal position you've had unnatural sex. Add fetishes, foot fucking, bondage, etc to the list and you have no more natural ground to stand on than a gay man does.