Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Chatter > General Discussion


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-11-2003, 05:01 AM   #1 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: La
bad vs. good looks are important?

Why is it ladies, that you tend to like the good looking guys that treat you like crap but will always overlook the no so good looking guys that will treat you like goddeses? Why does looks have to be so important now a days? Is there any females still out there that will take the time to look inside someone rather then just there outside?
replte2 is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 05:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Louisville, KY
I consider myself a pretty decent-looking guy, and nice to boot, but most women just don't seem to dig that. Lately I am more and more convinced that society is encouraging women to choose the "jerk" over the "nice guy," and that has nothing to do with looks.

When looking for an explanation, I keep running into things like "women want a man, not a doormat," which seems to imply that by treating women well is BAD, and men must carefully follow a quota of niceness in order to avoid sudden rejection! I find this extremely ludicrous, and refuse to accept it. Maybe thats why I am still single, eh?

I am sure there are some women out there, especially in non-Western cultures, who have not been shaped and molded by popular society's rules. Keep searching, man. I know I will.
__________________
You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy
Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy
Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants
Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance
Nefir is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 05:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
The Original JizzSmacka
 
Jesus Pimp's Avatar
 
Find some filipina chicks, treat them well, and they'll love ya forever.
__________________
Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.
Jesus Pimp is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 06:06 AM   #4 (permalink)
Loser
 
I refuse to be a jerk.
I enjoy being nice.
I also refuse to repress my emotions for the "good-feelings" of others.
I'm a passionate man, who expresses himself...both good & bad.

Women who won't recognize this...
well, then something is seriously messed up about them
and I don't want to be involved with them.

I want someone who appreciates me & themselves.
Wouldn't that be nice?

Last edited by rogue49; 08-11-2003 at 06:14 AM..
rogue49 is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 06:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
Insane
 
Because first impression goes a long way.
^dude is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 06:18 AM   #6 (permalink)
Tilted
 
I would have to agree with ^dude because first impressions are very important.
s8ins child is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 06:19 AM   #7 (permalink)
Shade
 
Nisses's Avatar
 
Location: Belgium
I think the point is that alot of them base everything on the first impression these days.
__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.
Nisses is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 06:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally posted by s8ins child
I would have to agree with ^dude because first impressions are very important.
Thankyou kind sir.
^dude is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 06:27 AM   #9 (permalink)
Tilted
 
You are ever so kind ^dude for noticing that i am a Kind sir. Thankyou i look forward to reading more of your post replys!
s8ins child is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 07:07 AM   #10 (permalink)
Flavour of the Weak
 
Location: Canada
I'd say that most guys to that too.. It's all about the looks!
ninety09 is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 07:29 AM   #11 (permalink)
Psycho
 
neoinoakleys's Avatar
 
Location: Michigan
You said it right, man...Filipina girls are the best...I love the HELL out of mine...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jesus Pimp
Find some filipina chicks, treat them well, and they'll love ya forever.

Also, here is a note...I have learned that girls go for the jerks when they are not ready to marry or looking to settle down. Girls tend to look for the drama and excitement that a "jerk" can supply. They also like to think that they can change the guy into the kind of person they like. But in the end they will always marry the nice guy after all is said and done.

This is of course a generalization...
__________________
It's My Duty to Please That Booty!!
neoinoakleys is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 07:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
Shade
 
Nisses's Avatar
 
Location: Belgium
and all generalizations are false
__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.
Nisses is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 07:55 AM   #13 (permalink)
Happy as a hippo
 
StormBerlin's Avatar
 
Location: Southern California
Me, being a girl, I will tell you why the girls go for jerks. Most of us don't know what we're worth and we think that is the best we can do. If that is our first serious relationship, that's all we know so that is what we stick to. That's about it.
__________________
"if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane
StormBerlin is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 10:19 AM   #14 (permalink)
Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash
 
anti fishstick's Avatar
 
Location: oregon
Quote:
Originally posted by Jesus Pimp
Find some filipina chicks, treat them well, and they'll love ya forever.
eh... what's that suppose to mean???

personally, i don't like being treated like a godess. that's not to say i'd rather be treated like shit. :P i just don't like being put on a pedestal as if they're looking up to me.

"i could level off the ground that we stand on
but with you down on bended knee
always looking up at me
that feeling of standing up together is gone"
-ani difranco

and stormberlin got it right. we go for jerks because the quality of the relationship reflects the amount of self-worth we have or don't have..
__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

Last edited by anti fishstick; 08-11-2003 at 10:22 AM..
anti fishstick is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 12:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
Overreactor
 
Location: South Ca'lina
I'm so glad to hear stormberlin and anti fishstick admit what I've thought for years. But that still doesn't answer replet2's question - why stay with the hunky jerks instead of taking a chance with the no-so-hunky charmers?
__________________
"I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa
johnnymysto is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 02:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
Practical Anarchist
 
Location: Yesterday i woke up stuck in hollywood
Quote:
Originally posted by Nisses
and all generalizations are false
Quoted becuase of truth
__________________
The Above post is a direct quote from Shakespeare

YourNeverThere is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 03:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
Observant Ruminant
 
Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town
Sounds like the best thing to do is pretend to be a jerk, then do nice things for them but pretend you didn't mean to or it was an accident.

Actually, now that I think of it, I know a few women who'd go for that bigtime.
Rodney is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 03:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: Vancouver
maybe generally girls just like hot guys and ignore the personality until it's too late and that most hot guys are jerks. I'm sure girls go for hot nice guys too, but it must be the hotness that attracts them 1st yes?

it's not like guys go for ugly nice girls either, they'll go for hot bitches, hot nice girls, bu tnot ugly bitches or ugly nice girls. So it's not a matter of being a jerk and a nice guy at all so much as looks give the first impression and both girls/guys want the best looking mate.

That's pretty cynical though.

On another note, there are obviously blatant jerks, nevertheless thouse that catergorize people in only 2 ways, nice and jerks, and find themselves to be the nice ones, may be a little naive. Which i [not all girls] certainly do not dig.
__________________
-poor is the man whose pleasure depends on the permission of another-
lafemmefatale is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 04:16 PM   #19 (permalink)
Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash
 
anti fishstick's Avatar
 
Location: oregon
Quote:
Originally posted by johnnymysto
I'm so glad to hear stormberlin and anti fishstick admit what I've thought for years. But that still doesn't answer replet2's question - why stay with the hunky jerks instead of taking a chance with the no-so-hunky charmers?
well it does answer it. that's the thing.. when you're caught in a relationship with a hot jerk and you have NO self-worth, you're going to cling on to it anyway. it's all you have, yes? females base themselves on external things too much...the relationships around them. i know it is my weakness. i also start centering my life around the other person instead of myself. you begin to lose yourself, etc. it's hard to get out of that...
__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin
anti fishstick is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 10:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
We're having potato pancakes!
 
hotzot's Avatar
 
Location: stalag 13
There are girls out there fellas that do go for the nice guy. I've dated quite a few and married one. I'm no Brad Pitt either. Hang in there.
__________________
The Bully Boys are here!
hotzot is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 02:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: La
I have been in three serious relationships in my life and all of them ended up in heartbreak. I have been cheated on because i am to nice, I have been dumped for being to passive towards them, and I have been dumped for wanting to have kids. All I can see hear is that either I have fallen for the wrong ones or there is something seriously wrong with wemen now a days. I am in clined to believe the later.
replte2 is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 03:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
Addict
 
Location: The one state that doesn't have black outs: TEXAS BABY!!!
IMO this dating thing is nothing but a huge game. If you know the cheat codes then you can beat it, and if you're just naturally talented then you can beat it too.

I try not to take 'relationships' with significant others too seriously since I have yet to come across a 'sure-deal' woman. I'm the kind of guy that likes committment and I'm pretty sure I wont find that type of girl anytime soon, and so far the S.O. thing will stay in 'game-mode' until I do stumble across that diamond hidden beneath all these shit riddled stones.

That said, here's how I play the game.

Rule number one: FUCK GIRLS, I don't need them.

"That's so harsh!" Yeah but that's life honey. People get fucked like the guy who posted above me, and so to keep from getting fucked you have to put some invisible walls up. No matter how nice I treat a girl, in the back of my mind I'm always saying "FUCK YOU BITCH" until she shows me that she's a real woman who is looking for something <i>more</i>.

After I have the right mindset I can go about learning 'tricks' and things. Fastseduction.com has a plethora of 'tricks' if I choose that route. They work too; I've tried 'em. The one main trick I know is use alot of kino (touch her) and captivate her with conversation. After the "hello's" and "what's your name's" it's all about touching and convo's. You can incorporate all that other nonsense as you see fit.

I think looks have very little to do with the equation. They do help, but they only (most of the time) get you in the front door. Looks wont get you any beans; that's where the 'tricks' and 'skills' come in.

For all of you fellers who refuse to 'change' even a little bit to get yourself some more womenz, well that's up to you. I just hope you do find 'that girl' eventually.

So, back to the original question..

Quote:
Why does looks have to be so important now a days?
I don't think they are <i>that</i> important. As long as your well dressed, smell good, and you're groomed, I don't think you have to be a supermodel to get the girl. There's ALWAYS going to be someone better looking anyways so why worry about that. Just make sure you're well kept, and that takes care of the physical part (pretty much).

Personally though, I have the body of an egyptian god*, so if I chose to go around dressing like a hot-boy then I'd probably get in more front doors, but if I couldn't back up my looks with some game (yes, pun there too - see, cheat codes a.k.a. tricks) then I wont be able to seal the deal unless they're drunk and are only looking for a good thumpin

Also, there are exceptions to all this stuff. Alot of guys are just at the right place at the right time, or have 'middle-men/women' to hook them up with people.




*i kid... for the most part
__________________
Did you Google it yet?

Join the TFP Typing team!!
sub zero is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 04:04 PM   #23 (permalink)
Loser
 
Location: who the fuck cares?
I have never dated a guy based on looks. And I mean NEVER. And I will tell you this: the "not-so-hot" looking guys can be bastards and jackasses just as well as the "hotties" can. It's not just becaue they have looks that makes them that way.

A nice guy is a nice guy. And the reason most women don't fall for nice guys is because most women have self-esteem issues that keep them from believing they deserve a nice guy. (I said MOST, not ALL). From years of watching how women are treated as the butt of jokes, degraded and kept down in their jobs, what else would you expect us to do with our relationships?

But the nice guys can win, regardless of looks, if they know how to play the game (like someone else above me had said). It is a game, and the trick is to know how to win... just ask redravin40... he won
JadziaDax is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 05:33 PM   #24 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: Toronto
It truely is about the game and I myself don't know the rules Two friends of mine are on an internet dating site and get contacts all the time, I go on, get the initial contact and it fizzles out to nothing. What is my problem? I am a horrible conversationist, I cannot think of anything to say or will think of things but don't come out to say what is on my mind.

I think you have to have the confidence to be yourself and not fear rejection (something I am slowly learning myself). So it is not so much as the women being attracted to the asshole personality, but the confidence that they exude by being the ass.
Othello is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 06:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: Castro Valley
one of my friends put it like this: assholes get the girls, but nice guys last with the girls. It stuck with me.
Fifteen Short is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 07:50 PM   #26 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Re: bad vs. good looks are important?

Quote:
Originally posted by replte2
Why is it ladies, that you tend to like the good looking guys that treat you like crap but will always overlook the no so good looking guys that will treat you like goddeses? Why does looks have to be so important now a days? Is there any females still out there that will take the time to look inside someone rather then just there outside?
Would you go out with a 5'2, 200 lb hirsute girl because she had a nice personality?

If the answer isn't yes, you might want to consider women are pretty much the same as men.

Oh, and "good looking" is subjective. The people I know who go for the skinny guy type wouldn't look twice at me; ones who like it big and strong, do. There are people who are interested in pretty much any look.
rodgerd is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 07:54 PM   #27 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by JadziaDax
A nice guy is a nice guy. And the reason most women don't fall for nice guys is because most women have self-esteem issues that keep them from believing they deserve a nice guy.
I'd point out, of course, that there's a good proportion of the men proclaiming, "I'm a nice guy, why don't women like me" are anything but nice. Just because someone has a particular self-image doesn't mean squat.

I'd also concur that many women have trouble with picking worthwhile men (for a plethora of reasons); most of the straight gals I know seem to take until their late twenties before they learn the difference between "confident nice guy" and "arrogant arsehole."
rodgerd is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 09:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: Castro Valley
Quote:
Originally posted by rodgerd
I'd point out, of course, that there's a good proportion of the men proclaiming, "I'm a nice guy, why don't women like me" are anything but nice. Just because someone has a particular self-image doesn't mean squat.

I'd also concur that many women have trouble with picking worthwhile men (for a plethora of reasons); most of the straight gals I know seem to take until their late twenties before they learn the difference between "confident nice guy" and "arrogant arsehole."
See, I really wonder about this. Because if the guy is like me, then girls are telling him hes nice. Girls tell me this all the time. I know one girl that thinks Im the sweetest guy in the world. I never use this argument though because these "nice guys" generally arent. Im just super shy
Fifteen Short is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: La
I believe one of the problems is, people think that dateing and finding "The One" is a game. I dont believe this is so. It is a mission not a game. We as the human race are born with the drive to find someone, we dont do it because we see someone else doing it and haveing fun. It is a drive in all humans.
replte2 is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
Registered User
 
skysooner's Avatar
 
Location: Oklahoma
I had absolutely no clue about dating. I would pick women based on looks or a generally slutty attitude. If a woman showed me even a little bit of attention, I would fall hard and fast (unless she was completely butt ugly). This had to do with self-esteem as much as anything. When I was finishing my first Master's degree about 14 years ago, I was in classes that had no women. I was stuck in a lab till all hours of the night and didn't have the energy to go to bars anymore since most of my good friends had graduated and moved away. I ended up using a dating service for a little while. I met one very nice girl (strict Southern Baptist) and another girl who wasn't as nice. I ended up with the not so nice girl who had bi-polar syndrome and was a different person every single time. We dated roughly 3 months till I finally said to hell with it. On a whim, I put an ad into the local singles newspaper. I got 2 responses from two friends who didn't know they had each responded to the same ad. One turned out to be the woman of my dreams (didn't figure this out till the second date). She is nice, attractive, and "gets" me. I don't think you could ask for anything more. She was the sterotypical nice girl who I wouldn't have given a look if I had met her out somewhere because she was so shy. Guys are just as guilty of this as girls. I think age and experience tend to take care of it.

One suggestion I can make is to meet women at non-standard places. Bars are the absolute worst unless you are just looking for a one-night stand, and you aren't likely to meet the perfectly nice girl who doesn't want to go to those places. College classes at the local community college and out shopping are a couple of great places to meet women.
skysooner is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 05:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: Burbs of NYC
Okay, for all the whiners out there read this: You keep saying girls don't like a nice guy. Bullshit. What you are doing is not 'being a nice guy'. By putting a woman on a pedestal, by doing everything for her, by making such a production of everything, you are, in fact, belittling her. Relationships are a two way street. Giving is good. Loving her is good. But if you smother her with all of this, you are not allowing her to do her half of the work. The relationship has become lopsided, and she will leave you out of desperation.

Do yourself a favor. Do her a favor. Treat her like a person. An equal. Share everything. I'm not talking about playing games. You just need to relax and let things happen.

There’s also another answer to this.... Stay in your league. You need to follow your own advice. Don't go for the 'hot, empty headed' chick. Try asking out the nice, plain girl that is a lot more like you. Being obsessed by looks, on either side is not going to get you anywhere. Physical attraction is important, but it only lasts so long.

Okay, lecture is over.
__________________
"We got no food, no clothes...our pets HEADS ARE FALLIN' OFF!"
Wile E is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 11:29 PM   #32 (permalink)
Upright
 
Wile E has it right...

I have lots of friends who are nice guys, which is code for: door mats.

My girlfriend and I have been together a hell of a long time, and although I treat her nicely, she does not walk all over me. Nor do I walk on her. Like Wile E said, it's a two way street, treat her the same way you want to be treated..


oh and if you want to be waited on hand and foot, either move back with mom (not that mine ever waited on us) or hire a maid... don't look for a S.O.
Fozzie_Bear is offline  
Old 08-19-2003, 06:26 AM   #33 (permalink)
Stay off the sidewalk!
 
RoadRage's Avatar
 
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Hijacked from Sinfest:


__________________
Join TFP Team SETI
43K workunits complete, 34 members, more of each needed.
RoadRage is offline  
Old 08-19-2003, 06:33 AM   #34 (permalink)
Fear the bunny
 
Location: Hanging off the tip of the Right Wing
Women are so fucking screwed up in their pretty little heads that I don't even want to get started on it. All I'm going to say is that the next woman I date is going to ask me out. That's the only way I know she'll be worthy.
__________________
Activism is a way for useless people to feel important.
BoCo is offline  
Old 08-19-2003, 11:20 AM   #35 (permalink)
Stay off the sidewalk!
 
RoadRage's Avatar
 
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Quote:
Originally posted by BoCo
Women are so fucking screwed up in their pretty little heads that I don't even want to get started on it. All I'm going to say is that the next woman I date is going to ask me out. That's the only way I know she'll be worthy.


If only more people would voluntarily stay out of the gene pool…
__________________
Join TFP Team SETI
43K workunits complete, 34 members, more of each needed.
RoadRage is offline  
Old 08-19-2003, 11:28 AM   #36 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by Fifteen Short
See, I really wonder about this. Because if the guy is like me, then girls are telling him hes nice. Girls tell me this all the time. I know one girl that thinks Im the sweetest guy in the world. I never use this argument though because these "nice guys" generally arent. Im just super shy
Well, it's different when other people tell you you're nice; I've heard too many people announce, "I'm a nice guy" and proceed to demonstrate otherwise.
rodgerd is offline  
Old 08-21-2003, 07:37 AM   #37 (permalink)
Crazy
 
filipina
__________________
joe's git en go taco's-always fresh!
joe spade is offline  
Old 08-21-2003, 04:39 PM   #38 (permalink)
Follower of Ner'Zhul
 
RelaX's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
We are just shitty little products of our mom and our cultures upbringing, they taught us to be nice and give gifts and be booooooring to women.

I have a friend, he is super good-looking, Italian parents and he looks and acts like one of those slick guys, real . Anyway, he's always surrounded by hot women, and you know how? Not by being hot, not by worshiping the ground they walk on, by treating them like H U M A N beings and making them laugh. That's all any of us really want isn't it?
Bastard also has a steady girlfriend that isn't even half as good looking as he could get. I've seen models go gaga over him but that doesn't matter to him. Because, like he confided in me, for all the fun models can be, in the end looks are just another personality trait, it's the entire personality that you have to love.

Sometimes I just wanna kill him for being a that much better human being than I am. lol
__________________
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
- Nathaniel Borenstein
RelaX is offline  
Old 08-21-2003, 07:48 PM   #39 (permalink)
Fledgling Dead Head
 
krwlz's Avatar
 
Location: Clarkson U.
2 Words..... Ladder Theory

Edit: Thanks to Bones for his referance to this marvalous site....

Last edited by krwlz; 08-21-2003 at 08:19 PM..
krwlz is offline  
Old 08-21-2003, 10:21 PM   #40 (permalink)
Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash
 
anti fishstick's Avatar
 
Location: oregon
Quote:
Originally posted by RelaX
Not by being hot, not by worshiping the ground they walk on, by treating them like H U M A N beings and making them laugh. That's all any of us really want isn't it?
right on. i couldn't agree more..
__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin
anti fishstick is offline  
 

Tags
bad, good, important

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:19 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360