Motorcycle Helmet laws...
 

I'm a pretty law-abiding citizen, generally believe most of the laws we have are necessary to protect order and citizenry. I pay my taxes, rarely participate in civil disobedience and chastise others about their law-breaking.

That said, I was just informed by a police officer (who pulled me over, mind you) that helmets were mandatory in the state of WA. Coming from CO (where they ride free), I was understandably confuse - but now I'm more mad than anything. What purpose do helmet laws serve? They certainly don't prevent accidents. And barring some sort of *ACTUAL* government takeover of healthcare, they don't decrease health care costs for non-riders.

There's no arguing that riding without a helmet is stupid, but in a Republic where we value individual freedom and (ideally) only legislate where there is a pressing public demand. This isn't like smoking bans, either, because smoking harms others via second-hand smoke. A rider choosing not to wear a helmet (or even wear a half helmet) affects only them (and perhaps their loved ones, in the event of a collision) and as such shouldn't be a "natural right" taken away.

How did these laws get on the books? From what I can tell, it's intensive lobbying by the insurance industries, because it cuts into their profits if they have to pay out larger sums for dumb dead motorcyclists sans helmets instead of severely handicapped motorcyclists with helmets. I don't think that's a valid reason to infringe on liberty.

You?

Thoughts?

In UK helmets are compulsory and have been for some years - unless you are of the Sikh religion in which case you can ride with your turban (although I dont know how you would keep it on).

Relevant.

I've been riding a motorcycle since 2007. For me, it's a toy, not a vehicle. I've traveled between states. My home state is a wear-a-helmet state. Protective equipment isn't mandatory to make you feel like Big Brother is shitting down your throat, but for the good of society as a whole. Let's say you're Jinn Kai, the second baddest motherfucker on the planet. Well, third. Sam Jackson is always the first. Your most popular quote is "I'd hit it." You ride a superbike worth $91,500. You piss excellence. Doesn't matter. You aren't the one that will fuck up. That sleep-deprived Kenworth driver will kill you with a truck so big all it'll leave is a grease stain. Or maybe the giggly cellphone-using teenybopper in the Jeep. Or some crotch-coffee guy.

Motor vehicle seat belts are that important. Motorcycle helmets are that important. I'm all for that kinda Big Brother involvement.

...

Don't worry, this guy is sympathetic.

This isn't a liberty thing for a lot of people. It's a lame fashion accessory thing. Helmets just aren't cool. Especially DOT cruiser helmets. They're awful. Turn your head into a mushroom. Can't be a badass with that kinda headgear on, amiright? It's funny, all the sportbike guys I know walk around with their $200 spacesuit toppers tucked under their arms like its a tough guy badge. Maybe that is your problem. You just need a cool matching jacket, brah.

...

Hilariously ironic.

Helmets are relevant for guys like me that only get to ride maybe 500 miles a year. I'd imagine they're even more relevant for serious riders. Yesterday, for example, I did a pretty long run down the freeways here. I was five minutes from the house when house when road construction started. In order to avoid chipping the paint on their Buick POS, some dipshit cager changed lanes at the last second and cut me off so close that I could have kicked their rear quarter panel. I was thankful that some law told me that I had to wear a helmet. I could have very well died yesterday if I wasn't so lucky and dodged it. Skinning my torso on asphalt, maybe breaking a leg? You walk away from that. You don't walk away from smacking your noggin at 65 MPH.

...

TL;DR:

Don't be butthurt. Learn and respect the laws of the states you ride through or just don't ride through them.

I don't agree with mandatory helmet laws, except for those under 18.

That said, I do agree with seat belt laws. In the event that a crash occurs, a locked seatbelt can help you remain upright in a position where you can still have some control of the vehicle. This gives the driver the opportunity to control a skid or navigate his/herself out of the way of fellow travelers. If you aren't wearing one, it's much easier to be shifted out of your seat, or pop your head on the steering wheel. This would leave the car without directed control, and would increase the danger to the passengers of your vehicle as well as others.

Seat belt laws help more than just the people who wear them. As for helmets, I don't drive a bike so I'm not sure if there's any comparable justification. Seems like if you're in a situation where the helmet is useful, you're probably no longer in control of the bike.

Why? Don't our kids deserve all the liberty that adults do? I think we should totally allow kids to ride on the fuel tank of a motorcycle without a helmet.

Fuck common sense. You can't legislate it, amiright?

...

Helmets: They're for kids, Asian guys and fags.

Hahahahahahahahaha *chokes on lunch*

Colorado is full of rocks and lot's of big lug tires to pick them up and throw them at you. I wear a full face helmet every time I ride. In the last few years, I've shattered two visors due to rocks.

That said, I fully support your right to go without.

Agreed with Plan9 on the mandatory helmet laws.

I agree with Jinn and StanT.

Part of living in a free society is the right to be an idiot. Not wearing a helmet doesn't hurt anyone else except yourself.

Thanks for imposing your will on me with helmet laws. This is a microcosm of what is wrong with the government today.

Plan9 your argument is a joke, are you saying your wouldn't of wore a helmet if the nanny state government didn't tell you to? Because you only ride 500 miles a year everyone should have to wear a helmet?

What's so funny is my right to not wear a helmet in no way restricts your right to wear a helmet.

~~~

With that being said, I live in a FREE state wear you aren't required to wear a helmet. However, I wear a helmet 95% of the time and have been down at 80mph and walked away with it because I had gear on.

You know what they call motorcycle riders w/o helmets? Organ donors.

Helmets: They're for kids, Asian guys and [liberals].

How do you feel about other ridiculous government intrusions? Seat belts? Traffic laws?

I know I'm a little miffed that I can't do 75 through a residential neighborhood.

Just another case of the fuckin' man trying to keep a brother down!

When I lived in CO (a "ride free" state) I wore my helmet every day for about 10,000 miles of rides. I'm not arguing that it's not a life saver, only that government legislating "safety" on individuals without a clear public concern is unacceptable. The law clearly didn't require me to wear a helmet, but I did because I'm not retarded.

I didn't wear my helmet today because I was going from my door to the gas station to get an energy drink, a total distance of 0.67 miles, round trip, with a posted speed limit of 25 mph. The time to put on my helmet and gloves and jacket is equal or greater to the time actually riding, and the risk of severe injury or death on a one lane road at posted limits in clear weather, extremely low to low traffic and clear mind is quite arguably no higher than the danger of walking the same distance; should they mandate I wear a helmet to walk that distance? That's what liberty is about; allowing people to self-determine their lives, even to make decisions on their own, without the government interceding.

What of the "my right to swing my arms ends at your face"? I'll reiterate again that the decision to wear or not wear a helmet affects none but the rider and (potentially) their loved ones, and legislating protection here does not serve the public interest. I know you're making caricatures (as you're wont to do) of other examples which clearly present a societal interest; traffic laws quite obviously serve the interest of many people as well as regulate the safety and order of society. Seat belts fall into the same sort of category as helmets, provided the wearer is above the age of 18. Protection of minors is a clear imperative of a just system, and "age discrimination" or not, we are well within our needs as a society to order parents and other adults to take reasonable protections for the safety of a child, even if they themselves opt to not use that same protection.

Bullshit argument, Captain Freedom. In Freedomland, if it's good enough for dad, it's good enough for junior.

When you start making exceptions, you're eroding your valuable freedoms! Live free of chinstraps or die!

...

Did you read the "Fuck helmets!" study w/ stats link I posted above? It's pretty much all you, bro.

I've been riding motorcycles since I was twelve and my father and uncles ride too. None of them wear helmets unless it's cold but I wear one every single time. At this point it's just uncomfortable for me to ride without one (a full face euro approved one by the way). Plus it hides the fact that I'm a woman. :)

So after long discussions on helmet laws, my opinion is that they should be mandatory for anyone under 18, or maybe 21. Kids do stupid things and we as a country tend to make laws for their safety. If you ride without a helmet as an adult, I reserve the right to tell you you're an idiot. As far as laws go, I understand why people feel that they shouldn't have to wear helmet but I think that the state should require extra insurance or something if you do. The idea would be to absorb some of the costs associated with having your head bashed in.

Realistically, DOT helmets are not safe enough to keep you alive in your average accident anyway. The DOT testing is simply not up to par. If it was, you wouldn't see half helmets on the market. People don't usually land on the top of their head in an accident (though, I have seen it happen). What is a half helmet going to do when your face flies into the back or front of a car? Or when you lowside and smash the base of your skull into the road? The reality is, even if you wear a DOT helmet, your chances of walking away from an accident are not great. That said, there are a lot of lives that have been saved by helmets. Mine included.

Edit: I wanted to add that the same things I mentioned above should always apply to scooters too. They are just as dangerous but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone in gear on one.

The only thing I learned from that article is that helmet laws cause the state and business to lose a ton of money in revenue because people simply stop riding. They didn't even really prevent any more deaths.

It almost seems to be arguing for the no helmet law case. I dont understand what you're getting at.


Honestly, did you even read it at all?

helmet laws, just like any other law regulating activities that mandate any sort of 'health and safety' aspect are there because we stupidly allowed ourselves to be told we're too F'ing stupid to think for ourselves. some group of people whined and cried about DUI checkpoints, so we got them even though they were only 1.6% effective in KS one time.
http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-and-Op...708/103762.pdf

I could go on and on about how all of these 'regulations' are possible because the people allowed one, but it falls on deaf ears most of the time because.....well, most of you demand that people be babysat by the nannystate because only THEY know whats good for them.

you brought it on us all.

It totally is.

It is the argument you guys should be using instead of some retarded tin foil hat flag-waving bullshit. What I'm getting at here is that people are retards. They don't want to their freedoms infringed because... well, it makes them uncomfortable. The whole motorcycle helmet law thing reminds me of the Ugandan army a few years back. They had a mass sit down over body armor they refused to wear because it was "too heavy." They'd rather take two to the chest than be encumbered by life-saving gear. Retards. I've seen dudes on Harleys in short-shorts and Crocs. Hilarious. $40k motorcycle, $20 outfit.

I can see the whole "freedom (to be a moron)" thing. I really can. But you can't play favorites. Fuck kids. And fuck traffic laws.

America!

You wanna argue no helmet laws? Use some statistics. Not Glenn Beck.

...

And what is with the Samcol / DK swarm? You guys move in packs?

I have ridden on the back of a motorcycle all of one time, and never driven one myself. The one time that I rode on the back of a motorcycle, I would not have ridden if I were not given a helmet to wear. I am more of a bicycle person. I won't ride my bicycle on canyon roads or great distances in areas I consider dangerous without a helmet. This is because I have hit a pothole on a dirt road and flown over my handlebars - the kind of experience that makes you appreciate the helmet that ended up a shattered mess. A minor concussion is far better than death.

My personal preferences are just that.
I do feel that a motorcycle training course that involves proper use of all safety equipment should be a requirement for obtaining a motorcycle license. But once that training is over, a person should have the common sense to make a choice on their own. The only reason I would go without a helmet in a heavily trafficked area is if I was suicidal. I respect a person's right to be suicidal, and therefore respect their right to not wear a helmet.

Probably not the answer that you wanted.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

Why should it even matter if it's a fashion thing.

This thread thread just went full retard.

I'm sorry, Samcol. I'll switch the style up. Lemme explain my posts in this thread-thread in bullets:

1. I'm in favor of helmet laws because I see them in the same category as seatbelt laws.

2. If you're going to argue helmet laws, argue money and stats instead political babble.

3. People are retarded.

I sent out the tweet and he came in for backup.

Hah! Smooth.

Mycousins cousin in the states went 100yards down the road face down without a helmet. They identified him by his clothes as he had no face left.
Its important when riding or driving, to remember you are surrounded by idiots moving in heavy great lumps of metal. My sons mate was t-boned - helmeted - it doesnt take a lot to kill lumps of your brain.

I tend to agree with 9er here.

The whole "dangers of the nanny state" argument kind of silly to me. The American government has been successfully running a nanny state for corporate America for well over a century now—protecting it from outside influences and from itself—I don't see why individuals should be left out of the loop.

I think from their perspective, they're primarily concerned about fewer people dying.

Those damned tyrants!

I honestly never knew about the money issue, but I still feel the freedom argument is just as valid. I have the exact same opinion on seat belts.

Should a mother be held responsible if her child is thrown from the vehicle due to not wearing a seat belt, probably.

Honestly, I believe the seat belt law is just a door for the state to pull you over and check everything out. IE revenue.

The motorcycle helmet thing is different though. I'm trying to figure out the motive to pass a helmet law. I'm sure the citizens aren't exactly calling for states to have mandatory helmet laws, and from your article it's clearly not revenue based :confused:

DuneDan will show up shortly as well. :thumbsup:

Baraka,

You can't agree with me--you're Canadian.

motorcycles are dangerous for two reasons.

1) some people shouldn't be on them because they're retarded, and

2) cagers (those who drive cars) are even more retarded, don't look for bikes, or simply don't care.

given the 2nd argument, and the theory that the nannystate just wants to save lives, ban motorcycles. Since people in cars can't be held responsible for killing people on bikes, we'll just take away bikes.

I'm cool with that, DK. I've got a preban.

And I'm cool with getting rid of cars, too.

But you're a liberal, which pretty much makes you Canadianesque.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

I'm talking about the nanny state, not the police state. They're not going to take away your bikes.

Baraka,

Pfft! I'm hardly a liberal. They don't ride cruisers. Only pussy putters like Vespas.

That and I just spent two grand on an !!!ASSAULT RIFLE!!! That's totally right wing.

skateboards are dangerous also, and bicycles. rollerskates.

i heard barbie dolls could be dangerous when used improperly.

maybe guns also? heard they are dangerous.

But you're always quoting that liberal pundit Henry Rollins.

I don't get it.

DK,

Come on, now. I wouldn't know anything about guns.

And have you seen where you can shove a Barbie?

God, college girls.

Slippery slopes are dangerous too.

Brilliant pun :)

Sorry. I wasn't going to pass it up. :thumbsup:

I want to party with you guys.

While wearing a beer helmet.

i still gotta find out this mysterious anomaly that lets slippery slopes fade out of existence when a democrat is president, yet appear out of thin air with a republican president. fascinating.

I assure you, it's always around.

Have you met my mother? Cycling was a no no, as were rope swings, and walking on walls - because - ready for this, and remember I was about 5 - you can damage yourself and no decent man will want you.

I remember looking at the scabs on my damaged knees, and thinking it a bit silly. I also wasnt allowed to catch sticklebacks in the river, or paddle in it on a hot summers afternoon for fear of drowning. Of course I did all these things - but out of sight of course.

On helmets - cycling i got carved up by a taxi, had to leave the bike to save myself from full impact, banged my head landing - and for a few years my sentences would be in my head, but when I tried to vocalise them - the words would vanish. I did manage to find words at the time, as passers by kindly helped me out of the road (on a roundabout) - I believe they were 'You Fucking Wanker!' The police had an ambulance take me away.

Q. Those of you who prefer to ride topless - would you rather your kids wore helmets if they rode bikes, or would it not worry you either way? Oh and whats wrong with those fuckwits who dont wear adequate footwear when out on a moterbike - see the kids out on their bikes in the summer in shorts and trainers - and how stupid is that.

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...sin/Helmet.jpg

Wait a sec. *click-click* Okay, I'm ready. Continue.

when i was a kid riding bicycles, i'm not even sure they made bicycle helmets back then, and although some people think i'm probably dain bramaged here, i never once hit my head hard enough to cause any permanent damage.

shorts on a bicycle shouldn't be an issue either, but idiots wearing loafers and leather on their harleys........that's just plain stupid looking.

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

so you see it too?

thought i was losing it over that.

I feel old saying 'back when i was a kid', because I'm only 28, but nobody ever wore a helmet on a bicycle. I remember smacking my head on the pavement more than a couple times.

Now every kid I see riding a bike has one, is there a law for that now too? Or are they just worried about their kids getting CPS'd if they don't have a helmet.

My childhood friend's father fell off his Schwinn doing 18 mph was killed instantly.

Yay for anecdotes! Maybe parents put helmets on their kids because they're helmets.

[Its all those trips to casualty with the little loves that fill you with 'what next?'. I guess I am an anxious parent. When son went out to Basra I tried phoning around to get him body armour with willy protection. I had a friend who knew one of the saudi royals about 45yrs ago, and she was ready if it all went pear shape, to make contact after all these years and ask for help. Other son too was a worry - like the day he put three leg pins in a wall socket. BANG! That one does wear a helmet when cycling through London. Parents worry, thats where all the grey hair comes from - its natural. I dont know what CPS is (crown prosecution service?) - most parents want their kids living life and enjoying it - whilst taking care of their own safety of course. They dont want their daughters taking short cuts home at night through dodgy areas, most parents would rather go out and get them. I think most parents dont want to have their grown child drooling out of the side of the mouth, have to feed it, change its nappy and wipe its arse all the while hoping their child will have some carer when they are dead, someone to show them continual love and kindness. Most parents dont want to be pall bearers at their childrens funerals.
Funny old lot arent we.

This is the second time in a month I've found myself agreeing with you. You must be going soft.

From what I've seen. There are very few real arguments against helmet laws. But what amazes me is the amount of riders that get really lucky once but they still refuse to wear a helmet after they almost died. People are retards, therefore society is tasked with forcing them to be safe. I'm sure there's a political concept on it somewhere but I'm not a politician.

Where the fuck did this come from?

Helmet laws are a state issue.

I've been riding since Nixon was in office, helmet laws were around then and don't seem to have spread much.

I ski, ride a bicycle, and rollerblade, in addition to riding a motorcycle. I wear a helmet for all of them. My head is worth it to me. If you don't feel the same about yours, why would I care?

or just maybe (shock) they CHOOSE to?

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

question, why do people have to be retards simply because they don't agree with you?

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 PM ----------

then this obviously wasn't directed at you?

The economic issue alone that plan9 posted is enough to make me wonder why we would force helmet laws. When you include that data with the fact that it didn't really prevent many deaths in the states that enacted it, I wonder why any state would have a helmet law. The other question is why do you care that people want to be retarded and not wear a helmet, it doesn't hurt you?

Riding a motorcycle is inherently dangerous compared to driving in a car. It's interesting that everyone in this thread says that riding with a helmet is the smart thing to do, but some people seem to think it needs to be forced on us.

Since this thread has derailed like-whoa...

Hot damn! We could have a thread where I talk about Baby Jesus gliding down from the glistening clouds of heaven on Day-Glo roller skates wearing a star-spangled cock ring and singing Three Dog Night's Joy to the World and you crazy white boys would STILL be able to make it about dah gummint steppin' on yer throats. I guess I don't have to worry about popping your domes during the Revolution, eh? No Kevlars on your noggins, amiright?

Also:

How am I the only dude that has contributed any kind of useful, related facts to what should be a fact-based discussion?

I mean... I'm me. I'm the guy that makes wild ass statements with zero education.

...doesn't this worry any of you in the least?

Yes it does hurt me.

If my Dad crashes his bike without a helmet, that would be really bad.

If my co-worker doesn't survive a crash, our ability to meet deadlines and recover that knowledge would be very hard. I would probably have to work overtime to do it as well.

A widow would have to re-evaluate the finances and miss out of spending their retirement years with someone they love and care for...

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 PM ----------

http://gamapserver.who.int/mapLibrar...aps/Helmet.png

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 PM ----------

Child Protective Services

This state run government agency will remove children from parents who are putting them in danger.

Maybe your father and co-workers should wear a helmet then? There's nothing preventing them from doing so.

You are basically saying your father and co-worker's aren't smart enough to wear a helmet. Maybe there's nothing up there worth protecting, as they need the government to force them to do it.

Again, I wear a helmet 95% of the time. Why people want to force this is astounding to me.

Perhaps your associates aren't smart enough to protect themselves, clearly they need government assistance.

'The people' see that bikers not wearing helmets and dying causes grief for the other people in their lives. It would probably be the same way in most families of bikers who don't wear helmets. We want to pass laws to give you another incentive to wear a helmet since you are being selfish and only thinking about yourself and not the pain and problems your actions might cause.

Now, helmet design needs to be looked into. There are improvements in weight, form, and viability that can be made.

And, if you want to go fast without a helmet and have a good time, get a jetski and take it out on a lake.

Those have helmets, too.

Ya, because jetski's all over the lake are super safe :orly:

I don't even boat anymore because of the jetski's.

I'm being selfish because I wear a helmet, but don't want to force others to wear one...

FYI, there are helmets that are super light and easy to wear if you choose to use one.
I just don't get it. Why don't your comrades wear a helmet?

Obviously they are too selfish to realize the pain that their injuries could impose on others.

Thankyou for the interpretation ASU. (CPS).
Re jetskis and helmets, I did find this video -

Always remember, when on the water, sail has right of way over steam - then everyone can enjoy the water.

so you want to force other people to abide by your wishes for your own personal benefit?

As someone who totally avoided a TBI thanks to my helmet whilst riding my bicycle last year, I think that the laws are all wrong. I think that the law should be that it is illegal to wear a helmet if you ride one of those super loud "check me out, I'm a asshole" motorcycles.

Hey, I resemble that; at least for a couple more days.

I think of it more as "Get off your fucking cellphone and pay attention to the road" pipes.

We live in a society where one persons actions does have impact on others, whether they understand it or not.

I'm not impacted personally when the vast majority of motorcyclists die from scraping their head against the pavement or slamming it into something. However, there are other people in their lives that would be negatively effected.

This.

Well, to all the people who are paying attention, it's obnoxious. It's kind of the equivalent of yelling in someome's ear as you run past them because you want to make sure they don't bump into you.

isn't it better to have one person inconvenienced to keep people safer?

I understand the safety argument. I might be inclined to point out that the safety conscious person might do well to avoid riding a motorcycle altogether, but I don't know that that would be a compelling argument.

I would likely be safer (in terms of being hit by a car) as a pedestrian if I walked around constantly yelling through a bullhorn. I would also probably be someone you'd look at and say "what the hell is wrong with that asshole?"

so is it preferable to force drivers in cars to be more responsible by being more aware, or do we absolve them of that responsibility by forcing bikers and pedestrians to wear better safety gear?

I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure it's too complicated to hash out in a forum.

Isn't that the basis we use for determining someone's legitimacy?

If you read my original post you would have seen me say that I don't believe helmet laws are the answer I don't think helmets should have to be forced on anyone. People should be able to take precautions on their own.

The fact that motorcycles are perceived as dangerous negatively effects everyone that rides. I shouldn't feel like my friends want me to get a psych evaluation just because I choose to ride a bike. All of the people who do stupid shit like not wearing a helmet give the rest of us a bad name. Then there are all of the other affects people have already mentioned.


I've gotten a concussion from my head hitting the water without a helmet in a jet ski crash so that probably not a great alternative. That was back in my reckless days though.

This isn't really new information but the MAIDS report studied a lot of safety issues for motorcycles, scooters and mopeds in Europe. The report I have is PDF so I'm just gonna reference the wiki page.
"The MAIDS report tends to support most of the Hurt Report findings, for example that "69% of the OV [other vehicle] drivers attempted no collision avoidance manoeuvre," suggesting they did not see the motorcycle. And further that, "the largest number of PTW [powered two-wheeler] accidents is due to a perception failure on the part of the OV driver or the PTW rider." And "The data indicates that in 68.7% of all cases, the helmet was capable of preventing or reducing the head injury sustained by the rider (i.e., 33.2% + 35.5%). In 3.6% of all cases, the helmet was found to have no effect upon head injury" and "There were no reported cases in which the helmet was identified as the contact code for a serious or maximum neck injury."[10]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety