Willravel

You think it's interesting that the announcement that the man behind most successful terrorist attack in American history interrupted Celebrity Apprentice? Seriously?

dlish

you're right. islam does prefer a quick burial, but burial at sea is only if you dont have the option of burying on land. An example is if a sailor dies on the high sea, and you cant store the body, then it would be permissible to do a sea burial. so for the americans to use the guise that it was done under islamic customs is utter bull.

as far as osamas site becoming a shrine in saudi, i think you're wayyy wrong on that one. islam (in particular sunni islam) forbids the building of shrines. it is so expressly forbidden that you will never see pictures of Muhammed, god, and other prophets in the mosques or anywhere else for that matter. the saudis ( the sunni wahabi sect of islam) in particular are extremely paranoid about shrines and idolitry, so much so that they do not let people pray at the site of the prophet Muhammed himself in Mecca so that his site does not become a shrine.

the shia's on the other hand permit the shrines for their holy imams and other leaders, but thats a totally new topic altogether.


im with noodle, im thinnking that his body may have been badly treated that they needed to dump it to avoid a media disaster. but dumping it at sea would suffice to the masses in the west who may not know the rituals of burial, but who are they trying to fool here?

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Tully Mars

That sounds just as likely as the official version. Except I think Bush would have used it at an earlier low point in his numbers.

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LordEden

This was announced last night at my Game of Thrones party and I didn't want to talk about it. Politics shouldn't be discussed while drinks flow unless everyone in the room agrees with each other. Otherwise it just becomes a pissing contest and everyone leaves angry.

Plan is right and right now the only thing I care about is when my friends and family get to come home from the war. Will they? No. I just really see it as a "Pat ourselves on the back America, we are AWESOME" kind of thing. Is it good we caught the guy? Yes, he was the leader of a group that did some really horrible things to our home country and he deserved to be punished for that. Will this change anything? I don't think so. This isn't a cut-off-the-head-and-the-body-dies situation, it's a cut-off-the-head-of-a-multi-headed-beast-and-watch-it-grow-another-one situation.

Until my friends and family come back (and I stop being groped at the airport security line), I am not going to start chanting, "USA USA USA".

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roachboy

and here's a round-up of the day in meathead jingoism:

New York Daily News put it most bluntly: 'Rot in hell!' | World news | The Guardian

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777

Well, this will certainly guarantee Obama's re-election. I'm sure AlQaeda will be inspired to avenge Osama death, although I'm sure he was moving from cave to cave and what ever their equivlant to couch-surfing they have out there and too busy to run his own terrorist cell. Regarding the celebration, I'm getting Yoshinoya with a friend later

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Tully Mars

People said after the 1st Gulf War there was no way Bush Sr wouldn't get a second term. In politics you just never know and there's a ton of time between now and the election.

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m0rpheus

I kind of like this one.

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Charlatan

From what I've heard, Saudi Arabia would not repatriate bin Laden's body and so a burial sea was neccessary.

I am sure it wasn't as cut and dry as that but there you are.

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glasscutter43

Donald Trump has been instrumental in accusing Obama of not being born in the USA. So, I feel Obama's timing was planned to screw up Trump's show.

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Willravel

You vastly overestimate the importance of Donald Trump and underestimate the seriousness of killing Osama bin Laden.

The_Jazz

I agree completely. It's hard to see how there's much of a short-term gain in this. It's certainly no October Surprise, and it's not like it was the season finale of the show.

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Fremen

Trump's a joke, but it pissed me off when they interrupted CA, 'cuz I want to know if Star Jones is finally out on her ass.
Fuck this real life shit, gimme reality tv!!1!

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glasscutter43

Will, Did you happen to see Obama roast Trump on You Tube? I take Bin Lanen's death very seriously. I have cancelled all travel plans to the USA and will not be flying on any US airlines.

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Book 'em Danno

Willravel

I saw President Obama at the White House Correspondent's Dinner where he roasted himself, NPR, the movie The Lion King, Fox News, governmental employees, Seth Meyers, Matt Damon, and numerous other individuals and organizations in addition to Trump. You may have noticed that on the West coast his announcement interrupted the Simpsons. Do you think that's because they made his wife look stupid on an episode last year? Or do you think the timing of President Obama's speech coincided, in actuality, with confirming the death of Osama bin Laden and preparing for the speech?

EventHorizon

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Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

skizziks

wait, who died? really, did anyone actually still care?

anyway...

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr

albania

Celebrated isn't the correct word to use. I don't think I can ever really celebrate someone's death. But, I am glad that our pursuit of him is over. For better or worse Osama Bin Laden was the man who set in motion events that have shaped American foreign policy for a decade. Ostensibly he is dead, and I believe most people think justice is done.

EventHorizon

interesting that you quote Dr. King. would you say that his death was just another death compared to the death of hundreds of thousands (someone please correct me if that figure is incorrect) of black people in the name of racism or slavery? Osama's death was more than just some dude biting the bullet, it was a symbolic death.

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Willravel

I hate to be that guy, but only part of this was written by King. The second, third, and fourth sentences are from Strength to Love. The first sentence appears to have been simply added on.

Here's the full quote:

kramus

Only because I've seen a couple of these pop in this thread. And because I thought it was kinda funny.

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/...if?w=255&h=156

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Xazy

Well said.

Also terrorism now sadly is like a Lernaean Hydra once you cutoff a head other heads will appear. This is sadly the new reality, all you need to do is look at NYC now with the terror alert, the super slowdown now at airports after Osama was killed. The message that we will get you if you attack us while is heard now is not as strong since it took almost 10 years.

I applaud the military and intelligence services for their hard work and accomplishment, I just do not feel this will change anything. It is not a huge victory where people should be out celebrating. The closest to a celebration in my mind is the closure to some 9-11 families.

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roachboy

Killing of bin Laden: What are the consequences? - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

we have become the monster we're fighting.

On Osama Bin Laden?s Death | Common Dreams

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Plan9

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roachboy

if you actually read the article linked below the quote, 9er, you'll see that it is a more sophisticated and specific argument than you might get by reading off what you want to see from a paraphrase of a line used mostly as a teaser.

on the one hand sure. if you believe the mythology that reduced the 2001 attacks to the a single very bad apple (rendering neutral the manifest problems of empire but hey everyone sees what they want, yes?) so that we are collectively in a re-run of some cheesy western and have just witnessed----sort of----the climactic showdown between Good and Evil at High Noon in front of kitty's saloon---then sure. it's a simple little world, that, but it provides a quaint narrative and you don't have to work too hard to get it and who doesn't like the climactic gunfight in a western. and except for the whole civilization thing no problemo. but you present yourself above as having access to some Higher Reality, a revealed wisdom about what's Really Going On with people. it's a little unnerving, this rhetorical position you like to trot out. o the thin veneer of civilization--so easy to strip away.

and yes it is easy to strip away.

but i would think you'd kinda like that thin veneer of civilization. because what's behind it isn't great. it isn't smart. it isn't interesting. it's just death. like an endless ted nugent song. yeesh.


because one of the main problems with systematized barbarism national-security state stylee is the lies you have to tell to pretend its not there. but you have to lie about it because---well----it's that's how war economies roll. they're only easy to sell if you talk a bunch of shit about freedom and all that. of course it's only meaningful, this freedom business, so long as you don't fuck with the empire.

this whole charade of the war on terror is about maintaining in place the hoary old national-security state. it's about a vision of capitalism as a war economy predicated on a politics of security uber alles.

until the national-security state is dismantled, we are the beast.

problem is that folk like it. they like the westerns they get to watch. fuck yeah america they say once the dude in the white hat guns down the dude in the black hat who is exactly the same as the dude in the white hat except for who's cheering for him

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it make you sick.

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skizziks

i saw the quote on facebook and copied it because i agree with it, regardless of who said it or how it was cobbled together.

as for bin laden dying, i still couldn't care less.

Plan9

...

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mixedmedia

First off, I stand behind everything that rb has said in post #66 above.

Since 9/11, I think many of us have been so traumatized by what we've witnessed that there is no longer a clear picture of what we stand for or what our actions out in the world are meant to achieve. Hell, speaking for myself (and I think many others), I can't even say for sure whether my government represents me at all. Therefore the killing of Osama bin Laden doesn't hold any significant meaning for me. And I certainly don't celebrate it. Was he killed to revenge the people who died on 9/11? I think a question like that highlights the dividing line between Americans who still essentially respect the power apparatus in this country and believe in the old American ethic and those of us who have seen too much to believe that anything is truly what it seems to be on the surface.

I've come to think of this modern American life as a giant stage play in which radical script changes have made stagehands late for their cues allowing us to see the reign of chaos and the decaying theater behind the scenes. Either you suspend disbelief and are just glad when the scenery is finally rolled into place or you ask yourself, 'what the fuck is going on back there?'

So, no. It was interesting, but I didn't celebrate when I heard the news. I put on my scrubs and went to work a 14 hour day and I didn't think about it at all.

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EventHorizon

thats exactly what did happen though. our "empire" shit the money bed but we stuck with it anyways. i dont see how you can say this is all in the name of economic interest when everyone can agree that its not about the money, its about completing the yin-yang, or as we apparently retarded (i speak for just myself... i hope) westerners say: "what goes around, comes around". i'm not going to thump my imaginary gavel on my desk and say that "justice" was done because getting into what real justice is would take years and years of debate... and by extension, server maintenance costs for TFP that we probably just dont have. however, what did anyone think was going to happen? we were going to have a little hash session of "chase the terrorist" for a few years and then give up once the price tag got too high? i dunno man, i don't think it [the war in a-stan] was ever about the money. i'm still undecided about iraq, but thats another tangent. we poked holes in OBL's body with bullets because he squashed a bunch of our people. i know there are still more people than just OBL, and i'm sure they'll get whats coming to them too, but is it so hard to be happy that all of this effort finally yielded a result?

disagreements aside. i'd like to pose a question just to you RB. what would YOU do after 9/11 if you were the U.S. Govt?

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

dlish

in the last two days at work. not ONE person has brought the Bin Laden story up with me. thats how much people give a shit about AQ and bin laden here.

arabs and muslim got over bin laden long ago.....after he screwed them over by forcing america's hand who took away their civil rights, their liberties, their freedom to travel without being questioned, their freedom to travel on public transport without being heckled and abused, by killing their brothers and sisters via collateral damage, by imprisoning their family members for looking and acting middle eastern. Bin Laden is despised because he brought hardship to his own people. People here got over him long ago. I posted elsewhere that Al Jazeera isnt even dedicating its broadcasts to this story 100% of the time! its not really a big deal, and its not going to change anything in the scheme of things. it certainly hasnt changed my life now that he's gone. I'll probably still get picked out of an air port line to be randomly checked. i dont expect that to change. i have mr OBL to thank for that.

But I just wish that those americans that find the death of one man something to celebrate, that they get over Bin Laden like the arabs have and move on.

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KirStang

Not to preempt RB, and (as usual) I have my disagreements with Roachboy.

But one of the very interesting things about the GWOT (a term that is no longer used), is that terrorism transcends borders and commits crimes in the way you would see organized crime transcend borders---

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, the GWOT perhaps should have garnered a more law-enforcement style response, rather than a 'send-the-troops-in' response.

It's also interesting--we invaded Afghanistan since the Taliban (with no diplomatic allies) would not turn over Osama--in other words we held the Government of Afghanistan liable for acts of a non-state actor (a direct-control test governs--see i.e. the Nicaragua cases where IIRC, people were trying to hold the USA liable for the actions of Contras).

/masturbation.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

If I fly with my South Asian friend, we invariably get picked out for a air-puff test. It's funny, yet, sorta sad at the same time.

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Plan9

So, what does Charlie Sheen think about all this?

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roachboy

i actually agree with you on that, kir stang.

had a law-enforcement style response been forthcoming from the bush people--who set this absurd train into motion (and the obama admin hasn't done much to change what was put into motion)---we'd likely be in an entirely different place.

sadly, at this point, it's a counter-factual.

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it make you sick.

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EventHorizon

dlsih, i agree with you completely that it won't change a thing in terms of airline policy or military presence in the middle east, but the celebration isn't about relief that the hardships and annoyances are over, but rather that they weren't for nothing. Had OBL just escaped, and then turned up dead in a hospital of old age, people would've been further convinced that their government can't get anything right, but the fact that now people know they were paranoid for a reason is comforting and that it all wasn't just for naught

__________________
Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

mixedmedia

how does his death teach us that it wasn't all for naught?

If anything I would think that it only confirms it.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

KirStang

So how does it confirm it?

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mixedmedia

Well, to be honest, I think it was confirmed long before he died. I don't think I've ever heard a person, conservative or liberal, utter the words: 'well, if we can just find this sickly, bearded psychopath and kill him, then all of this will seem worth it.'

bin Laden's death may be symbolic, but materially it is nothing but a news story. And it doesn't even come close to confirming that the price we have paid in response to 9/11 was a good value. Like many others on this thread have said: He won. His death doesn't change that and what's more he was probably aware of that fact right up until the seconds before he died. How are we to take any sense of victory or even closure from that? Our culture has been made irrevocably less free, less tolerant and less democratic. If you go back and read some of his statements pre and post-9/11 you will remember that those were some of his stated goals. He was not a stupid man. Much like many people who are looking at America from the outside, I think he had a perspective that allowed him the foresight to know (or at least suspect) what would happen to us when we were hit hard. It's just another one of those gallingly ironic realities that pepper the history of mankind.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

EventHorizon

so what were his goals? to change American people? whup-dee-do, IMO America's greatest strength is its ability to adapt to new challenges instead of clinging to things that worked in the past. while not necessarily pumped for change, people won't resist an obvious inevitable change in lifestyle (for long anyways). sure we have to take our shoes off in the airport but fatasses still eat mcdonalds. tweens still watch MTV, and people still protest peacefully without turning into bullet sponges.

__________________
Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.