Drinking in Front of Non-Drinkers
 

So, catching up on my NYTimes this morning, I came across this bit in the Dear FloFab column, and thought it posed an interesting quandary:

My family has had to deal with this recently, as one of my husband's uncles had to abstain from drinking over the holidays due to a medication he was on. Despite his insistence that he would be fine with other people drinking at holiday affairs, my mother-in-law, her mother, and her sister-in-law (the uncle's wife) all abstained from drinking too, trying to be "considerate." The problem with this was that they made the people who did choose to drink feel out of place and bad about the whole thing.

If there are non-drinkers present at a function, should people who do drink abstain from drinking? These questions are posed with the frame of American culture, by the way--I understand that other cultures have other views about drinking, i.e. the Muslim culture represented by the brother in the dilemma posted above. I welcome other responses with the frames of other cultures, but be aware my response is set in the culture I live in.

Personally, I don't think so. It might be the European in me, but I think too often Americans think that drinking is "bad". Drinking in moderation is fine. By trying to sweep drinking under the rug in our culture, so to speak, I think we encourage irresponsible behavior when it comes to drinking.

So what do you think?

i think that people who try to try to be polite just make things more awkward than they need to be. if the folk who are abstaining want to support the uncle, they should just not drink but say that its because they dont feel like it instead of turning it into a lance armstrong wristband event where if you arent abstaining, you feel like out of place

A lot of my extended family were drunks when I was growing up, out-n-out drunks. I think that's my biggest reason I've never been a drinker. The fear of alcholism.
Anyway, whenever we get together for the holidays, I have no problems with other's drinking while I don't, and they don't feel obligated to abstain with me out of consideration.
I find a lot of them to be tight-asses when sober, anyway, and they improve with a few nips. ;)
There's no religious worries on my part.

Also, if a drink sounds particularly tasty, I'll take a sip to see what all the fuss is about.

I'm an alcoholic (28 years sober). I do not object to others drinking in my presence, nor do I avoid drinking establishments. I have bought alcoholic beverages for my friends.

Not exactly the same thing, but similar. How does your brother feel about eating pork in front of Jews? Or beef in front of Hindus? At the risk of appearing intolerant, if he can't accept other customs that run counter to Islam, he is a poor Muslim, given it's emphasis on the acceptance of others.

My feeling is that I separate out drinking in front of alcoholics from drinking in front of everyone else. If I am having people to dinner, and I know one of them is in recovery, I will ask ahead of time if it would be easier for them if no alcohol were served. Most of the time they tell me to go ahead and serve whatever I want to, as long as they know I know they won't be drinking. But occasionally, they will thank me and say it would be easier, and they're having a hard time right now for whatever reason, and it helps not to see alcohol.

But if I'm at someone else's dinner, I will drink even if I know one of the other guests is an alcoholic, because I figure that either the host cleared it with them, or they knew what they were getting into. And that goes triple for big parties, where it is simply unreasonable for anyone to think that alcohol would not be served, or that people should refrain from drinking because of the presence of one individual.

That's as far as I go, and I won't go even that far for Muslims or temperate Christians or any other abstainers I happen to be with, because that is their choice. No one should attempt to force alcohol on them, of course, but they've made their choices, and they need to be okay with others having different decisions. After all, I have been to many a non-Jew's dinner or gathering where much non-kosher food is served, and I simply avoid it. It would never occur to me to expect non-Jews to keep kosher, so why should they do it just because they've invited me? If I really thought that there would be absolutely nothing I could eat, and it would be sheer unpleasantness to be around people enjoying their dinner or snacks when I was hungry, I would politely decline the invitation. If I chose not to do so, then any inconvenience I end up feeling is my own responsibility.

In business, I am sensitive to the participants and act accordingly. Socially, I do what I want, and let you do what you want.

I was on medication for a bit and was not allowed to drink. I wouldn't have dreamed of asking people not to drink in front of me. Was it hard not to drink? Yes, but it was *my* issue not theirs.

If there are non-drinkers present, I do not think that people should abstain. In the case of the Muslim brother... the sister is correct. The brother isn't preparing his children very well. Isolation from reality is just encouraging ignorance. I also think your family, in trying to be considerate, made a situation that was going to be just fine... very awkward and inconsiderate.

I would never bring pork to a Jewish home or alcohol to an alcoholics home.

If you are coming to my house, baby back ribs and beer might be on the menu. I will certainly accommodate any guest's dietary restriction and make sure a substitute is available; but I'm certainly not hiding anything.

I'm a man who really, really likes drinking... but socially only. I have 0 desire to drink alcohol without people there drinking with me.

Unfortunately a couple of times friends-of-friends who are non-drinkers make suggestions and off-comments that I have problems controlling my alcohol intake. Ironically on these nights I had only about 3 drinks and was simply having a good time with friends. Needless to say I try to explain everything nicely... but their decisions were pre-rendered.

I can understand if people don't drink due to religious reasons, medication, or historical abuse.... but honestly I find non-drinkers boring. WIDE BRUSH WARNING. I honestly feel that non-drinkers never have any good stories, they are never interested in conversations with strangers, or doing anything / going anywhere they don't always attend.

In addition, the condensation they feel over people who do socially drink is about as insulting as you can possibly get.

(using my own wide brush)

The few people I know who don't drink (and not for medical, religious or abuse reasons) are control freaks.

in the case of the article, i think people need to realise that the religious prohibition in islam on alcohol runs a little deeper than the responses ive seen so far.

although islam prohibits intoxicants in the Quran, the hadith has gone further to prohibit those that make it, procure it, deliver it and drink it. some even go as far as to say that even being in its presence is prohibited and that you share the sins of the drinker because presence is considered an endorsement of other peoples sin. I could go into the nitty gritty details of it, but i dont think it's for this thread.

in any case, thats the basis of why the observant brother does not want his sister to drink in his or his childrens presense.

as a person who grew up in an observant muslim family and who wasnt exposed to alcohol till my very late teens, i dont see any hindering effect on the child. im an example of that, the important thing here is educating the kids about alcohol instead of pretending that it doesnt exist. i chose not to drink as an adult, and i dont think there's any short comings as a result. i abstained for various reasons, some partly religious, others for health reasons. I think the observation that non drinkers are boring is quite offensive. i could use the same brush and say that slurring and sleeping drinkers make no sense and are equally or more boring than non drinkers.

in any case, as a non drinker, when people come to my house there's a non drinking rule. when we are out, i have no mandate to tell people what to do.

Why is it unreasonable to abstain from drinking alcohol for a few days? Is the woman in the OP an alcoholic or something?

no because her parents have a cellar that's full of good wine apparently. she seems to think that the wine cellar is going to waste if the wine doesnt get drunk.

it also looks like they dont visit their mother that often, so it leads me to believe that this may happen only a few times a year. maybe she is an alcoholic.

If a vegetarian is around does everyone else need to abstain from eating meat? If a vegan is around does everyone need to abstain from using anything made from animal product?

This, I would agree, is perfectly reasonable.

That is a wide stroke.
I'd like to edit your post you unbelieving Dune-reading maestrobaiter.

:thumbsup:

You know... if you'd just read Dune, I am sure you'd want to drink a big frosty mug of Spice.

*******
It's a broad brush... and truly only reflects the people I've met in person who don't drink (for all the reasons listed above). It probably represents a sample set of five people. Not scientific at all. ;)

My father-in-law never drinks. I don't think he has drunk even as younger, unless there are so bad stories to tell, we haven't heard. You can always count on him being sober to drive... Everybody knows this and doesn't offer him anything. There's nothing stronger than home-brewed beer what they offer at their house, but he is tolerant of others drinking elsewhere.

My mother-in-law does drink, if there is an occasion, when drinks are offered, but she can't control her drinking very well. She made an ass of herself at our wedding, when she started drinking the homemade wine and didn't realize to stop. The video clips from our wedding are priceless. :D

I only like social drinking amounts myself nowadays. If there are sober people present, it's even more desirable to abstain from drinking too much.

I'll write more later, have some stories to tell on the topic.
I would be bothered if people decided not to drink just because I'm not. It would make me feel awkward. I avoid such moments by encouraging people to drink if they please, and telling them that I'd be glad to be their DD. Bartenders usually get a kick out of my milk-with-ice drink order, they often present it with funny names like cow on the rocks.
The only reason I can think of that would make me ask someone to not drink in front of children is if that person had a known history of disorderly conduct while under the influence.

I'm proudly intolerant of religious ideas, but not religious people. I think this is a stupid idea, made particularly so by the religion that advances it.

On the issue at hand, I think that the host has a particular honor in all situations, and you really should not come into someone's house and then request the host or homeowner meet your demands, as it were. "House rules" mean exactly that, and if someone is uncomfortable with what someone has decided then they ought not visit at all.

So my advice to this person would be to take her brother aside and tell him that the wine is very important to her and that she will be drinking it at the house, even when he and his children are present. If he does not wish to be around it, then he is free to leave. This is, presuming of course, that drinking the wine when he is there is more important to her than the potential loss of a relationship with her brother and his kids.

i couldnt say i disagree jinn. well put.

Perfect.

There is something to be said for evaluating this on a case-by-case basis. Although the same rules would apply, say, in my home, there might be a time where I might make an exception. If I had an alcoholic relative and decided I wasn't going to serve drinks (my choice, my home) then I would let other guests know that it was going to be a no-booze occasion and would likewise expect them to honor my request.

I am really enjoying seeing the responses to this thread. Thanks to you all.

I agree completely with the "house rules" concept. My house, my rules. The comparison to vegetarianism isn't too far off. My hubby is a vegetarian and we keep a pretty vegetarian house. In our house, meat is only welcome at parties if we're grilling, and most people know to ask permission to bring meat.

Exactly my point in my last post. I find it so insulting with that assumption... its assuming because you don't desire it anyone who does desire it has a problem. I've had numerous times where people assume I have a problem because on a Saturday night I want some whiskey or beer with my food, I obviously can't control myself when they don't see me.

I completely agree with the house rules. Why? Because I can avoid the boring parties. Unless they are a close friend who has a serious issue, I'll simply skip non-alcohol dinners. Even though in a normal dinner I might have 1 glass of wine. Alcohol is a social lubricant that helps people interact and relax. It's not an evil concoction that instantly causes everyone to slur, trip, and have unwanted sex with others after more than 2 sips.

I once read something to the effect that a perfect host/hostess/guest lives by the rule:

In your house, your rules for all; in my house, your rules for you; but in my house, MY rules for ME. If you cannot accept that, then you should not be in my house.

I picked up on this as well. If the woman in the OP is that uncomfortable with going a few hours or a day without drinking, she may have more of a problem than a wine cellar that doesn't get used often enough. We only get her point of view here. Perhaps Brother doesn't want her to drink when the kids are around because Sis always gets hammered. And why doesn't the Mom (a non drinker) just pass the whole seldom used wine collection on to her daughter?:confused: Or does Mom recognize something daughter won't admit?

The uncle's distaff contingent was being a little manipulative, methinks? I'll bet they made sure that everyone knew that they weren't drinking.
I think that the size of the "function" would have influence on my response. With a group of a dozen, mixed drinkers and non-drinkers, (Oooh, a pun!) I wouldn't fault anyone for their choice. I'm not a big drinker, but would probably drink, or not, depending on what was on offer.:)

A group of three, with one person specifically asking that there be no drinking... I would accommodate those wishes.

I have nothing against moderate drinking, and am myself a moderate drinker. But there are always those who think that they are just "having a few drinks," while to anyone else it's obvious that they've had "a few too many.":shakehead:

Lindy

Yep.

It sounded like the woman had more of a problem not doing what she saw as not harming anyone and what she desired to do, not the fact that she was previously(?) abstaining from booze beforehand.

I think there are far more actual issues to get upset about than someone drinking and not hurting themselves or others in front on non-drinkers. If your religion, morality, mood, personal preference, etc. gets in the way of that, the problem is you. Get over yourself. :)

Great thread with interesting points of view.

It is weird because I see both sides of the fence and not sure where I sit on this one! Part of me is thinking that they couldn't put down the bottle for a day or two? That spells dependency to me.

The other side of me is 'my house my rules', don't like it then there is the door, but like stated above is a drink worth losing a family member over? If so than again maybe a dependency issue.

Either way interesting thread!

I rarely drink but funny enough am having a jack and coke while I type this. My wife does not drink at all and I can't even remember the last time I had more than 4 drinks in a night let alone got wasted. If you want to come to my place drink up if you want too! I have a fully stocked bar.

My company is a big party place and they love to have drinks after work, either beers at the office or at a bar. I prefer to work out after work and am really have to crave the taste, not the feeling that a drink gives me.

If we drink at work, people will comment if you don't drink like your a "pussy", can you say high school? I drank and partied my face off when i was in my 20's and don't feel the need to now. Now I'll grab a beer, go to the washroom, pour it out and fill it with water. Just easier than taking crap from alcoholics at my work. Party on.

If they want to go to the bar...."I'll meet you there" and they never remember I never showed up.

Really? No one has the crazy family members?

My father recently went off the deep end and refuses to believe Obama was born in America. I need a number of drinks for us not to explode in a political argument. It's not dependency... it's a crazy family member.

Really, it seems her brother is the crazy family member for which she needs to drink to put up with. I can't imagine the other shit he demands her and the family abstain from in the children's presence which is otherwise considered normal social interactions.

maybe its you that has the social hiccup that you feel you need to drink in the presense of people? most people dont need to get 'lubricated' to enjoy a dinner or party with good company. just saying.

i think you're also assuming too much about me. I have no issues with alcohol in my presense. I wont drink it, but i will still go to a bar or restaurant and order water with friends...ask Plan9 on that one! i even paid for his Heiniken! what i actually wanted to do was get him hopelessly drunk to the extent that he'd slur, trip and have unwanted sex with me. we all know how bad a drinker he is.

i still think that if this woman NEEDS to have a drink on the odd occasion that her brother is present with his kids, then she may have a problem that isnt just her brother.

i'd also like to float the idea that maybe its not the alcohol itself that he's opposed to...it may be the possibility of having his kids hear profanities if his sister becomes too well 'lubricated'...

canuckguy - thats interesting. i just tell the guys i dont drink and that's that. most people dont believe me when they find out im australian, but they figure it out eventually. i'd never give them the impression that i do though. sometimes it doesnt get me into the 'in' group, but then again i dont need to be.

I don't think we know enough about the woman in the OP to suggest her motivations (or her brother's for that matter). I can easily see how either scenario is possible (the drunkard sister or the uptight ass of a brother).

In either case, it's the mother's house and she should set the rules.

It's weird about some family relationships. My hubby has an uncle, who turned to a different religion than the rest of the family. He has annoyed his sisters and old mother by trying to convert them to his religion, or sect rather.

He had a quarrelsome divorce earlier, ex-wife left with two daughters. The women in the family seemed to blame the ex-wife, but apparently she found it hard to live with the man, who has been commented by many different people having odd habits. Later this uncle found the new religion, married and had one more daughter.

In addition to following the strict rules how to hallow their sabbath, which is on Saturday opposed to rest of the family having this on Sunday, he is very strict of what they eat, no meat, no coffee, no alcohol, which is not a big issue in the family though. But the daughter is forbidden any sweets too. Yet whenever this uncle's family visits the grandmother - he may meet his sisters there - these women have given the girl sweets and candy behind her father's back. Teaching her to lie to his father.

I find this an control issue of sorts. One of these sisters is my mother-in-law and she has tried to do the same with our sons, when they were young: disregard our wishes how to treat our kids, not that we had any extreme "rules" though, but her attitude was pretty much like that - she knows best how to raise kids of their brother or son.

On the other hand these women have doubts regarding the uncle being able to bring up these kids properly, because his habits are so different to theirs and he has also tried to convert these women to his life style. So kids become instruments in their fight of correct viewpoints.

There's some similarity here with the woman in OP. She thinks the father is not teaching tolerance to his children, yet she's not showing tolerance herself.

Maybe it's not really about the alcohol at all, it's an issue about control over kids. Plus she may really have difficulties keeping off the liquor for a few days.

btw - If drinking in her room is suggested, why not then drink at the present of the children and tell it's not alcohol...

Like Charlatan above says, we don't know the people in question well enough.

Similar story with my family. We have a recovering (well its been like 20 years, is he still considered recovering?) alcoholic in our family. So we all abstain from drinking...out in the family room area. But my cousins and I will go drink in our rooms. Its silly. Personally I don't care much, but everyone else is hush hush about it so I just go with the flow. Although now that I'm kind of pissed off at my family I think next holiday I'll drink openly.

I have some crazy family members, but I don't need alcohol to cope with them. In fact that I'd say alcohol would make it worse!

I've always have a drink or two because of the taste or to celebrate, not to cope or numb something. Too each his own though.

Well said. If Mom says no booze, whatever the reason, then no booze.

Drinking is fine for me in my house and when I go to functions where we meet at bars. If I don't want to be around drinking people which happens from time to time, I don't participate in the event instead of asking people to bow to my wishes.

Some great responses here, and good perspectives.

Gotcher ansuh right heah!
 

One of the things required in this world to keep peace is Diplomacy. That usually means being considerate, polite and with mature and balanced response. I, too, own a collection of wines. But I will abstain when tee-totaling friends come by, or family who do not drink, smoke, dance or watch network television. I am highly aware they are there to visit me, not those things. However, if there was something I did or had that they may mildly object to and I cannot avoid it, I simply ask them if they mind. If they do, I simply do not make it an issue or make the problem obvious. Yes, they are in your place. But I cannot see where anything but pride would be injured. The Arabs are the politest people I've ever met. They invite you into their homes, offer you food and refreshment and try to take great care not to offend. A gentleman in Yemen I knew invited me to a party. Muslims don't drink. But in Yemen the drug of choice is khat, highly illegal here, but freely used there, especially at parties. I don't partake of drugs. He, of course, could not help it but to ask if I would be "greatly offended" if they "observed an ancient tradition". I could barely see from the smoke and was getting high. He was kind enough to place an ottoman next to a breezy window and he and his wife sat with me. I had a great time though quite a headache the next day, cured by cups of stiff Yemeni Yergacheffi coffee. So, I'd ask myself, "What's more important: that great wine cellar and all that ego, or dear family and friends who sometimes might piss me off with their demands? Its a slam-dunk.

Recovering alcoholics/addicts are always in recovery, the potential for relapse is always present.

IMO after 20 years an alcoholic should be able to handle being around drinking (I'll know more in about 16 years and eight months); I don't see how they could possibly avoid being around drinking for 20 years. That said, each person is different. Whether or not to have a "no drinking in front of Insert Name" rule is up to the person(s) hosting the GTG.

Alcoholism is a disease/condition, like diabetes. It's something you learn to live with, and deal with. Early on, I realised I could sit with people drinking and not drink. MANY alcoholics can't. It's very much individual. I can go to a bar and drink juice/sodas comfortably. I am afraid to even consider sipping an alcoholic drink.

But... yes, we are still recovering, even after 28+ years. It's sort of like saying diabetes is being controlled or treated. You're not curing it, you're dealing with it. For alcoholics, the term is appropriately recovering.

Congratulations on your sobriety (28+ years if I properly understand your post). There was plenty of alcohol around the house when I decided to stop destroying my brain with booze. I'm happy to say that our household is now alcohol free.