Evolve or TFP dies.
 

It's that simple. I've tried patiently to encourage more posters only to not gain any real traction on that.

So far this year to date, we've got 1,996 threads created and that includes the ones that I'm using in the background.

I've got another major upgrade to do here but I don't see any real reason to do it. We live just fine in this version. In fact, I sense that it's going to just stagnate or it is already dead and all that's left is the kicking and screaming.

So here it is,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...04-34-56PM.jpg

We've had a very steady decline of participation. Looking these numbers, I installed a tracking system in March that tracked participation based on subforums. It has given me this top 20 list.

So I'm going to take the first steps in making an evolution. If I'm going to put in a considerable amount of work or ask other people to put in that work, I'd like to reward them accordingly. This is why you may have noticed that there is a post looking for writers.

There's a couple of things that are going to shake out of this. Either the community starts to actually discuss things more than just posting images, or the site does it's death spiral down the drain.

I've allowed those that felt it was more respite to post imagery more than discussion for a good 6 months, and it hasn't netted us more traffic or discussion. In simplest words, it isn't what this space was to be about. It's supposed to be discussion. Look at the numbers and tell me what you see.

Those of you who recently have restarted posting new threads, thank you. Keep up the good work, even if no one responds initially. It's how discussions start, someone has to start it. Thank you again.

I'm open for discussion, but at this time until further notice, I've removed Nonsense/Fun Zone from the New Posts search again.

Forums grow, forums stagnate, and forums shrink. You can't change that, and I suspect if you try too hard to encourage people to participate, you're just going to make what you see as a problem even worse by driving people away.

TFP is a community, not a business. The users are not consumers and posts not product. Expectations of perpetual growth or even maintaining user numbers and use are unrealistic. While the site does cost money to run, and certainly it makes sense to maintain an income of some sort, the function of TFP is as a virtual meeting place for people first and foremost.

My suggestion? Leave it alone. As admin, it makes sense for you to keep an eye on the forum to make sure it's running correctly from a technical standpoint and maybe to police the occasional troublemaker. We appreciate that. It's not your job to grow the site. It's not your job to chew out members for not posting as much as they used to. It's really not your job to try and scare people into caring by throwing around words like "dead" and "death spiral down the drain". I'm frankly surprised you think that would work. If the TFP community wants to contribute and interact, that's what they'll do. There's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

I wonder what new members will think of reading this thread.

This may sound pretty insane to most forum users, myself included but:
Get rid of the Search function and punish those that say "REPOST"

Trust me, nothing kills forum activity like a forum that's already had every topic covered and is full of people who love to mock those that ask a question that's already been answered, even if it that answer was 5 years ago.



*edit* Oh, and re-start some of these really old "What are you listening to right now" type threads, no n00b feels like going through a 20 page-long thread that started 5 years ago(which is prolly filled with rubbish anyways)

And fuck the forum updates. Have you seen what 4chan looks like? You can't polish a turd but nothing beats a rat-rod.

will, truth be told, I am getting tired of taking care of this place if the numbers are what they are. It isn't worth it to me to spend a whole day off to upgrade this space and continue to pay for it in time away from other interests I have.

You may feel that way, but if people do not post, there isn't much to respond to or discuss. If a conversation isn't started and it's just people posting photos and images, well, I'd rather just shut the site down now. It's not what Halx had in mind nor is it what I want it to devolve to.

Cavi, that rarely happens these days because there aren't many threads started let alone ones that are reposts.

I have to maintain some sort of updates due to security vulnerabilities and cross site scripting hacks.

I don't think that's really the case any more. It was a few years ago, but it's a habit that I've tried to break with at least a little success. These days we only combine a new thread with an old one if the old one has been active within the last 30 days.

As for the rest, that's not a bad suggestion but one that I don't think we can take lightly.

Will, you've made your opinion well known in the past. Let's just agree to disagree and not make this into a "thing". I think that the staff completely agrees with Cyn. We're the ones donating our time and efforts behind the scenes to keep this thing running. So if not seeing the "Fun Zone" in your new posts search is a deal killer, sorry.

This sentiment isn't reflected in the OP at all. If you're ready to move on, that's fine and I'd hardly begrudge you, in fact you deserve praise for keeping the place going and upgraded the way you have. If it's time to find another site runner (or whatever the term is), so be it. Whatever reason you have for being ready to hand over the reigns are your own.

What you posted above didn't seem like Cynthitiq's personal opinion of what constitutes a healthy TFP, but rather some objective law about forums. Perhaps that was my misunderstanding.

Anyway, I do stand by my statement that there's absolutely nothing you can do as an admin/mod to increase user activity. You can help to facilitate the natural flow of activity by keeping the site clean and running, but at the end of the day it's just you getting out of the way to allow the community to do its own thing. If TFP is slow right now, it's slow right now. I can't say if it will speed back up again or continue to slow down, but it's going to happen and there's nothing you, I or even Jon Stewart can do about it.

Would you like to hand over the reigns to a new tech savvy and well respected member of the community (not me, I'm not tech savvy)?

I am new here and have taken a liking to this place. I would hate to see it spiral. I was a member of a forum where discussion dwindled and it got down to fun and games and then that boiled down to bickering amongst the bored and cannabalism fed the starved and while it still lingers a sad malingering life, its so not what it use to be. Five threads a day, 10 people posting about their tiny little lives, all thinking they have a kingdom all unto themselves. They forgot...its not land. Its the net. And its 10 people without a life other than their keyboard that remain...

this place needs to remain. Its lustfully intelligent. I crave interaction such as this and CD will get rewarded grandly for this introduction next time I see him in person....

hand over? no, not going to happen.

It's going to evolve or it dies. I didn't post this without thinking this through. Why let it become like plastic.com that used to be a flurry of discussion to only now being barely a new thread a week and only a handful of responses? It's a pathetic shell of what it once was, I don't want TFP to suffer that same fate. I'd rather pull the plug myself than let it wither.

As for what a new member is to read or understand from this, is that there is a responsibility to participate in the community in some fashion other than just reading.

---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------

tasineah, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Nice thoughts, but mandating participation won't make it happen. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer. I've seen some very good and active forums completely disappear. It happens. Quite often, in fact.

Good luck, TFP.

Craven, I can't mandate participation. I can only encourage it. What I can do is discourage things that aren't the participation that is expected for this space. I'm looking at you Post an image threads....

They were to be rewards and respite from discussion. Instead they have been their own center of participation. If that's the only attraction for that member, in short I'd rather not have that member since that's not part of the intelligent discussion that was the standard and hallmark of this space.

I'm not trying to pick on those that are into posting photos. I'm trying to show that those that objected to my statements about it before haven't ADDED to the amount of discussion.

If the image threads are an issue, then eliminate them. I have no issue with that. But as long as they are here, if I find a humorous image, I'll post it here. And so will others. If you want solely discussion, then remake TFP into nothing but that. Seriously. However, I'm not sure how the elimination of the more frivilous threads will result in more discussion but at least they won't be held as the reason why more serious discussion isn't taking place.

As I said, good luck.

I took a break from TFP after Halx changed the forum a bit and I've been back for a few months now. Quite honestly, this isn't the same forums that TFP used to be. I see how many people are "viewing" a section but when I look for a new post, I don't see any thing. I created a post hoping to get some feedback and I think I got 2 bites before it died.

I've been expecting this kind of post and I'm a bit sad to see it. My suggestion would be to get rid of at least half of the subforums and see if some good discussion can generate in the remaining forums. Oh, and women only forum ... open that up. The last thing the board needs is any more separation from posters. As far as the picture forums, leave them. While discussion is limited there is still some discussion there.

Cyn ... thank you for all you've done in keeping TFP going. I do appreciate all your time and energy you have invested in forums for EVERYBODY.

If you're not interested in managing and keeping an eye on a smaller forum, what's the harm in handing it over to someone new? Halx handed it over to you, you can hand it to someone else and so on. I don't think anyone ever expected you'd run the site until the end of time. Anyway, the community exists in whatever form (or forum) it takes. Why do you think ending the site is better than allowing it to continue on should it continue to lean down?
TFP is unique and has intrinsic value even as a collection of thoughts, let alone as a community brought together by common interests. If you're starting to resent what TFP is becoming, so be it, but don't punish those who have stayed and continue to contribute.

By the way, TFP is the creation of the people who have made it interesting or great. Whatever TFP is belongs (belongs in the philosophical sense, not the legal or physical sense) just as much to Charlatan and MSD and Mal and Snowy and Baraka and Cromp and roach and phil and WK and SMeth and Rat and Ustwo and thousands and thousands of others as it does you. What happens to the collected thoughts of tens of thousands of authors when you decide the forum isn't big or busy enough anymore? Does the hard drive go into a drawer? Do we lose forever the horizontal vagina and mass media mind control and our most memorable posts and my insane 9/1 conspiracy theories?

I feel it is unlikely that there is as many consistent viewers in the sub forums as is shown without having relative posts. The traffic must be in reality less than what is shown.

want my 2 cents?

get rid of the blogs. Make a blog forum, right now it feels like a segmented site and people do NOT visit the blogs nearly enough, discussion in there is sparse, hell, I don't even want to go look at other people's blog entries because it's just like the basement of TFP, it doesn't feel like part of the community to me. I'd suggest it be a forum much on the level of exhibition because what people write in there is much more intimate than a set of nipples or a wang. I'd love spending more time reading the goings on in the lives of other forumers but beyond hitting "new posts" or sharing the occasional interesting (to me) post of my own, the posters here have a hard time distinguishing themselves in my head as being personalities vs lifeless forum names.

elseways, I only need to offer the video vs print media debate. Forums as "communities" have felt like they've been in a decline for ages. This forum and one other are the only remaining 2 out of about 8 I used to frequent that have any traffic at all.

Incentivise discussion. Icons, badges, extra titles, whatever, you guys had this voting thing a while back and that fizzled because it was mostly a popularity contest I think.

and, I hate to say it but maybe you just need to re-merge the adult forums with this site.

Honestly though, my last suggestion is simply this. Building communities from the outside works a lot better than pressuring those who enjoy the environment on the inside.

I don't think people go to the bar with friends to have the bartender interrupt their good times to snark at them and tell them that they need to buy extra drinks or they're closing the bar to make up for the lack of business from others.


I dunno, you can dissect and rebutt this post and it's suggestions all you want, ultimately I'm just of the mindset that it's not really anything we can fix for you. As far as what I can tell from the donation counter, the site is still paying for itself.

But mostly, I agree on the point that if the stress is getting to you, or you feel you lack the time/desire/expertise to be a community leader/builder/promoter then get more help from people who are enabled to do so, find volunteers.

Simply put, TFP isn't what it once was, and what you guys tried to turn it in to, doesn't seem to be working if it results in threads like this. I'm not mocking the situation, I've just seen it happen before and instead of adapting, or as you put it, evolving, they just gave up and became graveyards for spammers and bots.

Another idea is assigning content generation via volunteering/voting in forum leaders of the focused forums.

Say for instance, people who are really in to gaming or writing game reviews could be invited to post those reviews in the gaming forum on a regular basis. People with a focus in music could write album reviews or various studio methods, or share interesting youtube videos they came across.

As long as they accompany the post with original commentary, I think it would really help in the long term.

shauk, you made some good parallels there. A bar won't stay open unless it's worthwhile for the management to keep it open. I've been in bars that just closed because the regulars just came in and nursed 1 beer for the night. It's not far from what is happening here now with some of the old timers that cruise in to read but not contribute.

The site isn't paying for itself 100%. It doesn't hit 100% all the time, in fact it hasn't for the past 4 months, I don't expect it to get any closer. At this point in time I pay Halx his costs for the server and I pay for the chatroom myself.

will, it's not going to happen. I'm not going to hand over the reins to anyone else. There isn't anyone on staff at the moment who has the time nor expertise and I don't think that finding and grooming someone for it is worthwhile for all that I've been entrusted, not just from Halx, but from the community. You can stop postulating and wondering why, and that's the simplest answer I can give.

ice, according to google analytics it is more than what this tracker is showing. This tracker strips out all spiders and bots, and focuses on tracking the usage of individuals.

I sat here and wavered between "post" or "why bother" for a few minutes now. I decided to post an opinion, but the reasons for my wavering are what I feel is a big issue with TFP.

It's history of and continuation of the inflexible and overbearing moderation of the site.

I once had posted content here, articles I wrote, original art images, and participated in threads. At that time it was declared that TFP "owned" and held copyright to all posted text and images. Of course I went through all my old threads and removed all content that I possibly could.

Things are still eerily similar to that moment.

Wait, what? Though it's been over 6 years since I signed up to TFP, I don't remember reading that when I joined. Unless it's otherwise specified in the terms and services, you, the author, own the copyright to your own forum posts. I'm not a lawyer, but this isn't exactly a complex legal issue.

Do we have a link to the terms or service or terms and services of TFP?

I concur with Shauk's post. And if money is a problem I will pony up some more Benjis for my favorite waste of time.

And I'd like to thank Strange Famous for making Tilted Weaponry #7. I can't hold up Tilted Weaponry by myself, y'know.

...

Update: I just brought in a new hot female nutjob with a CAPS LOCK problem and dropped a $20 in the plate.

Look at the very bottom of every page....

"All text © 2002-2010 Tilted Forum Project"

Tirian, interesting, I don't recall that specifically but you bring up a great thing that I need to mention, copyright. There's a fellow that's going about trolling for copyright infringement. Admins of forums and blog owners are being Righthaven'd right out of existence. There's been a discussion about this posted by someone, with little thought to the actual ramifications at the time. Today, after consulting with a few lawyers and my knowledge of this group of individuals, in order to keep this stuff protected, it's a liability I'd have to shoulder and carry. Most sites that have been litigated against just closed shop.

In order to protect TFP from such things I'm going to have to pony up some extra dollars and file some paperwork with the US Copyright Office in Washington so that TFP qualifies as safe harbor and in 100% compliance for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). I'll also have to spend some time and money with a lawyer to make sure that going forward we're covered for such things.

Tirian, after sitting typing this I remember some of what you're talking about. Unfortunately at that time I wasn't responsible for TFP and not even an admin if I was even on staff at the time. My knowledge and understanding of copyright at the time is vastly different than what I know and understand today since today I specifically work with contracts focused on rights, royalties, copyrights, and trademarks.

If anything hardly enforceable for those that do hold the rights to the original text. If I posted a quote from CNN does that mean it belongs to TFP? Of course not. What about something that is in the public domain like excerpts from Moby Dick? Does that now belong to TFP? Of course not.

What it does mean and it's sole intention and purpose is to disallow someone from harvesting this website, reposting or publishing it it and claiming it as theirs. If that's what is stopping you from participating, that's a shame because if you read the TOS of most online games, websites where you are allowed to comment, etc. it isn't much different. If that stifles your ability to voice an opinion or participate then, with the simple wave of a hand, it's changed. Does that make you participate now more?

Now that I've removed the "all text" does it now mean that Clavus posts his original images and art, does it mean that TFP owns that? Of course not. It would be an absurd claim to try to make from my perspective. Do you get where I'm going with this?

---------- Post added at 04:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 AM ----------

Plan, thanks. It's appreciated.

I love this forum and most everyone in it, in fact it is the only forum that I consider myself a part of. However, I admit, I do not post a lot.

Why? Well in the beginning it was because I was intimidated. I then tried posting more as I became more comfortable with the people on the site. I am not someone who is afraid to voice my opinion, that is until someone takes what I say out of context or twists it to suit their own point. While I have no problem being outspoken, I do have a problem beating my head against a wall trying to defend myself for something I did not really say. Problem is, people seem to assume the worst about others and thus misinterpret posts and even thread starters (ie feminine vs female, this is not meant as a jab, just an example on the top of my head).

The last issue I see is that many threads break down into an incestuous circle jerk. While it is amusing to read, there is not much point in trying to respond to the OP if no one is going to read that when the circus side show is so much more entertaining.

As for money and donating, now that I have given up on my masters program, I am looking for work and will donate once I have a paying job. College loans do not pay much :(

I do not want to see this place die, I have created many friendships here. I will try to do my best at posting and maybe even starting a new thread in between job hunting.

Cyn, thank you for all the hard work you do! I know this doesn't fix anything, but I think you deserve to hear it.

This requires a certain level of investment in the community and... uh... yeah, maturity. I realize that I'm the guy stomping the threadjack throttle in a lot of cases, but I always make sure to go that extra mile in the beginning to address the thread's real issue. I wish others would do the same instead of cutting right to the dick 'n fart jokes. I know it's hard, guys... but think about the site. To put it in terms we all understand: Pretend that your thoughtful post is the foreplay phase and that the jokes are the manic hip thrusting phase. You gotta do the foreplay right so both parties enjoy the pounding.

It's true. I also appreciate your tremendous behind the scenes efforts and if you need anything that I can provide (which is next to nothing) let me know.

I've tried some of that, but really those larger contributors just need to continue to contribute. I'm surprised that Weaponry gets as much traffic as it does. I think that it's own sub community contributes and participates very differently than the rest of the sub-forum posters and participants. I have asked some of the main contributors to become some sort of "staff" or noted "contributor" and they declined.

That's kind of the problem for the other areas, no one wants to be responsible for them. This is as much as a lean back experience or a lean forward experience. It's the member's choice to decide which it is. The crux of this point that I'm raising is that if there is no lean forward experience, there can be no lean back experience.

I'd be happy to try that, would you be interested in doing something more for music?

What the? Where the hell was I at? Was I drunk at the time?

Originally it was individual approach meaning I spoke directly to individuals.

Most recent attempt is the MP post

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/members...s-writers.html

Yes exactly, it seems absurd, but that was the spirit of the chatter back when I removed all content.

In most cases, real life has to take precedence over any online activity. And let's face it - many people are having a lot of trouble in their lives right now. I've been a member here since 2002(?), and my activity has varied greatly from time to time. But right now my computer time is devoted to finding a job in my profession, trying to start a business, and researching new products, trends, and ideas in both my profession and my business. I might spend 10 minutes per week on TFP, whereas in the past it might have been several hours.

Give it time - when things get better, more people will have time for online interaction.

Gotta go - RL is calling.

I think a major problem is the amount of "hit and run" posts we have. Posts with only a picture or joke, that type of thing. I'm not saying those posts aren't entertaining, because 99% of the time, they are. Then there's the issue (wouldn't exactly call it a problem) of threads evolving from the main topic into another topic that's usually related to the OP somehow, but not the OP in its original form. A good example would be the "do cops have an expected right to privacy' thread: started out discussing exactly what the title said, then it morphed into reasonable force, etc. You can only talk about right to privacy for so long until it gets old and it loses flair, but Member X says something of interest that Member Y replies to, sparking a new discussion in that same thread.

Questions I have about all of this, Cyn: has this type of problem popped up in the past? How was it solved? Is it possible that TFP is stretched too thin with the many subforums, because I look at the list you put up and I can see a few merging together, and some I don't visit at all (#2 and #3 most threads most notable).

One of the things I sometimes notice is that TFP is like one big family, and while that's a great feeling for the current members, it's hard to be accepted into a community that's already pretty close-knit. I've been coming to TFP off and on for a while now, and I honestly don't see many new faces, which is awesome when looking at the "dedicated member-base" viewpoint, but it should be no wonder we're not growing when all the newcomers feel like they're watching a family sitcom. My only suggestion (and I've seen this implemented in forums that I've moderated before) in this regard is to spend more time welcoming people in the "New users" sub forum, get them to talk about themselves a little.

The other thing I see constantly is because TFP is a lot like a family, it's also a lot like a family that has been stuck listening to each other during a long car ride. Obviously we're all going to know a lot more about each other-but that also leads to knowing things we don't like about each other. Having more users contributing will help alleviate that some, but another thing to consider is taking time to respond to threads you usually wouldn't. Another would be to simply take some time away from the 'site.

When we talk about becoming staff of a sub forum, what does that mean exactly? Is the idea to moderate said sub forum, to start discussions, or facilitate threads?

I think I'm right when I say tasineah is the only "new'ish" member who posted so far in this thread. And when I read what she says and compare to posts from the experienced old-timers, it says something that sort of follows on what FuriousAvatar just posted.

don't hurt him; some of us love to pick on him...

Cynthetic, you remind me of the jet who disappeared. Was that you? I only heard the noise. The last time you complained about virtual silliness, I tried to tell you how I felt about it. I tried to tell you that a lot of good ideas & information get bandied about through the sharing of them, including the images, causing evolution in the minds as much as the sharing of opinions does through discussion.
I don't think you've thought through your angst sufficiently; of course, I haven't either, but I have evolved here, as has everyone else who enjoys this "place". What is your aim in threatening to destroy it?

Perhaps I haven't been the ideal member, I'm one who in 7-1/2 years has only 1600ish posts. I'm not sure that I've ever even started a thread here. If it weren't for my presence in chat over the last few months, it's likely that very few people would even recognize my screen name. Having said that, it was TFP that I turned to when shit hit the fan. TFP was there when I thought nobody would be.

Believe it or not, TFP has changed me. TFP, and it's members have seriously impacted my life. Yes there is one member in particular that I'm very fond of, but it was the very existence of TFP that made a huge difference.

I tend to be the guy that everybody says is quiet until you get to know him. Many would refer to me as the strong silent type.

I will try to contribute a bit more, even if I really don't have a lot to say. :)

I feel a strange mixture of having been here a long time and being somewhat well known in the community and still being an "outsider" in the community.

There have been times when the forum has really helped me, and times when things I say get edited or threads I start get locked and I really dont know why. I guess I wont go anywhere as long as the site is here.

I take on board that it costs money to run, and I have said before and I would say again that I would have no problem at all with adverts on this site.

Asking for payment by donation isnt so easy for a lot of people (I dont have a pay pal account, I dont live in a USD territory, I also am about to declare myself bankrupt - although thats a whole nother thing) although I did donate once, and I would maybe do it again if it was technically easy.

you are so dead, phil.....

but yes, I too am guilty of the hit and run remark. I will turn over a new leaf to try and post thoughtfully and on topic. And to try to start new threads that will not depend on the fabled "dick and fart" joke...but evoke interesting and thought provoking conversation.

or my girlfriend will beat me up......:eek:

That is an accurate observation and one that I've been trying to break from personally. It takes effort to evolve or change. When we think we've changed have we really? I liken it to not liking some sort of food as a child. It's a knee jerk reaction to just say you don't like something since you've not liked it for so long. Yet if you know physiology, you know that a child's taste buds change over time as do adult taste buds. Things you did not like as a child, you may find you like now, and things you loved as a child, you find not good now. The only way you find it out is to change how one reacts to the stimuli.

I'm talking about someone who posts a new thread in a subforum every day to every few days to generate and stimulate more conversations and discussions.

Now if the people won't change, then the space has to change in order to make a change happen.
Actually OCM, I acquiesced to you and several others. I let you have your way so that I could track just how much or little it added to the whole mix. It is about 6+ months later and the result of that tracking is what I posted in the OP. The images threads have a lot of traffic for a handful of threads. In comparison the discussions have a handful of threads and a lot more traffic by ratio.

Words are what are searchable, images are not searchable in the same way. People find us because they search for key words and find a discussion that pertains to what they are seeking. These image games do not.

I'll say that the collected images put forth in a reasonable manner that stimulates a curated experience does. Examples of that are the Cosplay thread and the Ziegfield girls. While the Cosplay thread seems like it's just like the post a circle thread it isn't.

So OCM, if you'd like to collect a bunch of them and post them as a gallery and launch point for a discussion, I'm all for it. If it's just come here and post and animal, sorry that's like saying you support a cause by putting a magnetic ribbon on your car. It's worse than phoning it in, it's like snail mailing it in.

What do I hope to gain by pulling the plug on this space? Well, see we have a large number of staff, and I don't want to "fire" a single one of them. Yet we don't really have the traffic to justify the total amount of staff. If we all agree that this is as best as we can do and this is what TFP has evolved to, and it's not really going to be any different, then let's stop now. Why wait until there's no one left? We have about 200 regular members come by every day, not the same 200 but it's about 200. Each year that number continues to go down. I've been posting about this for over 2 years now. I've not hidden any of these metrics or numbers. I have been happy to share them because I want everyone to understand just what I'm seeing and interpreting. I'm not all doom and gloom about this. I've been very much happy to recover from the cross site scripting hack that halved our traffic in the early part of the year.

OCM, I don't doubt that images are a fun and simple way to communicate and collaborate, but I see it at the expense of the core parts of our discussion community. Why have a meaty or difficult discussion when I can just toss up some images or witty one liners and go about my day? See I contributed, I posted some pictures that somehow tangent off the previously posted pictures. I'm sorry but it really deviates from the vision of intelligent respectful discussion that Halx created in this space 8 years ago.

How about this challenge OCM, you make a discussion of images. not a here's a theme post a similar image, but an actual discussion with images and only images. Convince me that I'm really far off base with my opinion and observation with a working model. Now take that one off model and replicate it several times. Right now 50 threads are the basis of what I'm saying aren't discussions but have some other merit different but not within the scope and vision of what I see as discussion.

OCM, if I really was so against it, I'd just remove the ability for it to exist. Keep that in mind not as a threat but as a statement that I understand it has a place and space. I just don't want to encourage newly minted members to believe that it's where I want them to play first. That's why we don't count the post count there so that it encourages them to make a minimum of 15 posts. I can't tell you how many people whine about how that's too difficult to achieve and they want to contribute now to that thread about posting an animal. Really? 15 thoughtful comments within the framework of discussion is setting the bar too high.

If I don't set any standards, then people get to make up their own and I have to conform to theirs. I've given you your opportunity to prove me wrong in the past 6 months and I can't tell you how often I click on new posts and it's almost all Fun Zone posts.

It isn't the kind of discussion I want to encourage, plain and simple.

These threads are like a look into the mind of that kid from high school who was just way too cool: that much better, that much smarter, that much more evolved than all the other kids and yet he couldn't quite figure out why he ate lunch alone everyday.

EDIT: excuse my previous post/answer, I've gotten some bad news and that clouded how I read and understood this.

I think I have a better understanding as to what you are getting at here.

Yes there is some of that, I think some of it has been lost because some of those that proselytized it so much aren't here to proselytize it any more.

Am I understanding you correctly that we don't seem as accessible as we should be in our discussions?

---------- Post added at 03:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

Somehow skipped this before, yes it has come up before.

It's simply put as being moderated. For the most part, the staff doesn't really touch any posts anymore. We don't guide as much as before because well it made it difficult to not offend those that were being corrected or adjusted. Some took extreme umbrage because they hadn't been corrected since grade school, really true story.

We don't do much of siphoning off and splitting off discussions, or even just encouraging people to start new ones. I think that's something we should revisit in some manner because it makes sense to sometimes, and others it's part of the organic discussion as it ebbs and flows.

I've always imagined that the subforums could be winnowed even further than they are. It is one of the reasons why I've got a hard on about the analytics and measurements because I can see what's not really working or what's working a little bit and put all the little bits together to make a bigger bit.

You've got it for the most part but it's really just as simple the fact that I really did enjoy the last two seasons of Jersey Shore and apparently so have millions of other people. I don't think there's anything wrong with aiming at more intelligent discussions but there's lots and lots of middle ground between pure genius talk and having no standards at all.

Many of those members may have left but I know that for myself and for plenty of others around here, much of the stigma has remained. Believe me, I don't want this forum to become the text version of watching the E! channel but there is a pretty clear lack of relevancy around here - a disconnect from what the rest of the world is out there making and consuming that very well may be worth taking a look at if this place is going to last as something more than this very same discussion reiterated interminably.

We may choose to make this forum different than the rest of the internet but as individuals we're no different than everyone else out there. Perhaps true evolution lies (at least within the terms of those old proselytizers) in regression.

My problem is and always has been one of relevance. I am, for example, just itching to have a discussion about a recent CRTC decision that will impact the nature and breadth of competition amongst broadband providers in Canada. I can start a thread on this, and have considered it, but who's going to respond? It's too esoteric.

I try to get a few posts in per day, but I've always been a participant more than a discussion starter. Maybe that needs to change, I don't know.

I'm also willing to throw a few bucks your way whenever I have it, but I get the impression that the operating costs are sort of beside the point.

I'd respond, Martian. I'd have nothing to add, but I'd respond just the same.

Operating costs are AN issue but certainly not THE issue.

Martian, you and I are cut from the same cloth. Cyn and I had a discussion yesterday about exactly this topic. I find it very hard to write an effective OP. My point is either far too narrow or far too broad to generate much discussion (put aside "far too boring" for a moment). I do, however, do fairly well at responding to folks. And I think that there's room at TFP (or whatever evolves from it) for both original posters and responders. It just seems at the moment that we're a community of responders more than anything else. And that needs to change or there won't be anything to respond to.

Maybe one problem is people aren't willing to take enough risks.

Martian, post your thread.

Jazz, post your thread.

And the rest of you, post a response.

It's not like it's going to be a waste of paper or anything.

That's how forums work, you know. Enough with the text messaging and app-slapping on your smart phones.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda.

Evolution is a response.

An attractive aspect of tfp has been its inclusively respectful attitude towards alternative viewpoints. It doesn't need to become an elitist circle-jerk, stroking each others' egos with unlearned discourse. If we want more people discussing more things, Cynthetic, you should get off your high horse & actually respond to what your community desires.

I thinly you need to clarify your statement. See as I see it the community wants to discuss things more than they want to post images. The stats I posted in the OP back that up. I continue to allow the fun zone image thread so I don't see any disconnect.

I am catering to some degree your kind of activity. Am I missing your point?

I often want to start science threads but I don't know where to post them. General discussion doesn't seem right nor does anywhere else. I'm not advocating we start another sub forum for Tilted Science since it may just end up being yet another sub forum that is not frequented much. However, I do feel we have a lot of science minded people. Maybe Tilted Technology could become Tilted Science, as technology is science.

Just an idea, maybe a bad one, but still an idea.

Tilted Knowledge.

Maybe not, but I'm missing yours. Is it only obviously pointed responses you're interested in? The stats you posted indicate that Nonsense is more welcoming, versatile, & unassuming. Do you believe that what you claim to want - intellectual discussion(?) - isn't a little more off-putting? Do you think it more attracts than repels? The crux of any argument we might have has been your apparent unwillingness to accept your fellows as they are. Halx never exhibited that problem.

I'm trying to help you. Others & I have made more efforts in welcoming new-comers. I believe your approach is faulty.

I suppose I'll write my novellas somewhere else. TFP may you RIP or something like that.

Please don't say that.

This isn't about welcoming new comers. This is about attracting them.

Directed or curated image threads do attract people. Examples that have caused crazy traffic is the Ziegfield Giles and Cosplay threads. The single handedly accounted for record breaking traffic to he point that the server was stressed.

Halx did make these same appeals. He used more stick instead of discussion with the community.

I'm not trying to change you. I'm appealing to those that participate here that if they just continue to response.d only to discussions and no one creates them we will have nothing to discuss.

Is no one posits discussions then what will people responsed to?

Since I see the writing on the wall of the steady decline of created threads I'm reminding people that responding only to threads gets is only the same 50 funzone threads. After a while that gets stale and how so you attract new people to something as esoteric as "Post an animal?" Or "post a circle?"

Inasmuch as you are stating or implying that I'm not doing what the community wants the last time I posited this 6 months ago and you have your way and method we are where we are today.

I can easily point to the statistics that show posting new threads begets more activity than your method of participation.

I have posted threads which have mostly been used in manners I didn't intend.
"Ain't We Been Usin' a Little?" was supposed to be about weapons, not drugs.
"Won't You Lie With Me & Make It a Whopper?" ended abruptly when I posted "I hate boobs," the biggest lie in that thread.
What happened to "Humanity, Sexuality, & ?" came about because of some of the same observations about the nature of virtual communications that have been stated here.
Others came & went...I only recently joined the picture brigade.
What do you actually know about my "method of participation"?
I long for the impression that you do.

*points at titty board*


Oh wait, it's off-site now.

First of all, I do not beat CD up for misbehaving. However, discipline could be negotiated if thats what he wants..

secondly, you all are cock fighting now. Stop it. This is why you arent getting new people in here. You start off with a good topic, say some good stuff, a few really classic one liners, grab your balls, hoot a while, and then it downgrades from there into bickering...

you all are like a family who has spent too much time talking to each other.

I have posted probably 60 some posts since I have been here in less than 2 weeks. I have had ONE person ask me to extrapolate on a post of mine. ONE. Not any of you have asked me any questions. Few have commented on my posts. Now I am an aggressive femme. I dont care if you do or dont. I am fine putting it out in public and moving on. But you know, I deal with people's psyches in my line of work and some people just wont feel accepted if left alone in this environment.


I have been checking out the new member's thread. You have gotten a bunch of new members since I dropped in. I can count on one hand how many hellos they have gotten.

You'all are incestous. You're breeding amongst yourselves forgetting mules are sterile.

As for money...in other forums, they had free memberships which gave people rights to posts and postings, etc. To get to the other fun stuff, you needed a paid membership. And there were levels, from cheap to top dog.

and they also had banners and stupid advertisements . Big deal. It made the site money. I get flyers in my newspaper too and I throw them out. Ignore them if you dont want to see them.

and how many of you have invited anyone in here? Or do you consider this your sacred watering hole? Oh goodie. Lets all enjoy it until it dies a slow death, just between us and each other.

Sorry, folks, but I have been on a forum who died. I told you what happened. I dont want to get close to you too and watch it happen here as well. My boyfriend invited me here. He has been here since he was a tadpole, so he says. (he has all his parts now) So I am trying to save it for him too.

Now forgive me but I have to go make gooey with CD....

---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

and frankly, I feel it was the wrong move to make taking down those forums with the photos.

For new comers, it was a good place to invest time in, get to know the culture, the wit and the character of the people in here in one image. Not everybody wants to jump into a discussion when they are new. But they might drop a photo or two to test the waters....

it felt like a daddy taking the favorite toys away from the kids so they will do their piano lessons. Simply asking us to post more first would have been more ....mmmm....encouraging...

Holy shit, Tasineah. You're not an aggressive femme, you're the dongless Jesus Christ.

Let's get some things straight:

Wow.

Unfair, but enlightening. I had counted on you.

I've invited everyone I think might appreciate the many ways we appreciate our world. That none of them have become contributing members doesn't reflect on them or us.

I hope this one insignificant thread hasn't colored your opinion of the project so darkly that you can't see your way back, tasineah.

Goddamnit, OCM. You know I need to edit my posts like 483 times.

You missed a few opportunities to use male-bashing language in there. Somewhere.

In some ways this is true. This is why it is important for those who just sit on their asses and shoot one-liners or carry on in asinine "post a shape" threads to be more active. It doesn't have to be intellectual, just make it interesting. Hell, I started a thread about falling down the stairs once.

Turns out it isn't all about you. It isn't all about anybody here. There are no "elites" here, just people who actively post and those who don't. This is a discussion forum, somehow participating in actual discussions matter. Some of those who don't choose to whine about it. If you're butthurt about a lack of others being interested in what you have to say, perhaps you should consider how what you're saying comes across to others. In most cases (from what I've seen) you're like me: an extremist weirdo. Not everybody feels like engaging with someone like that. It's awkward.

This is a good point. My manners suck. In real life and online. I just figure people will put things out there first instead of having to be asked. Perhaps I should invest more time in that thread in order to give the right first impression about the kind of people that are here.

And you've deduced this from what?

I'm all for this. Nothing good is free and nothing free can last.

I hate banners, but as long as Firefox's AdBlock plus can thwart them I'm cool with this, too.

Turns out a lot of us have. Others need to work on that. You can see how many people have been directly sent to the site by the "referrals" listed in their user profile. Mine is currently 2 even though I've invited 3 people here directly. Don't tell my buddy Manic Skafe, though. He'll call me a sellout.

Then don't "get close." It's a friggin' message board on the Internet, nothing more. The solutions to "our" "problem" are listed in this thread and in numerous other threads starting back in 2004 (?) where Ye Olde TFP Demigods bitched just as much. The admins should pick a direction and move.

It's like the military: Good decision or bad decision? At least you made one. The only wrong choice in leadership is inaction.

...

Maybe we should all take our own advice.

chuckling...Plan9...I have been called alot of things but a dongless Jesus Christ is a new one!

I know I came off blunt ... I needed to get it out of me. Plan9, even tho I am really arrogant sounding, I am very sensitive and I know its not all about me. I dont EVER want it to be all about me in a forum. If that were the case, I would have been happy to be one of the few left on that old forum where I could pretend I had my own kingdom. Forums are about the people in them, not a person or a few people. I have a strong personality and you are SO right...I am an extremist weirdo. (putting that in my sack of labels) but I did say I dont care if someone notices me or not. Seriously. I used me as an example of not getting comments or questions, because I fear that other new people arent as well. And they might care. They might need more encouragement to share and stick around.

I like this forum. I like you, in particular, Plan9. And alot of other folks too. Because you are smart, witty, articulate, and capable of a good discussion and or debate. Plan9, I like you so much because your lids off just like mine. You dont hold back.

I didnt post to piss you off or insult you. I said what I said because its what I see. Does it make me right? Maybe. I could be wrong. Have been in the past and you know by now when I am wrong and I can see it, I promptly admit to it. But You wanted opinions....

I'm not pissed off or insulted. It's a message board.

Gotta play it up to keep things interesting. AmIright?

...

I'm involuntarily sober and celibate and it's Halloween. :(

oh dear...not good, about you being involuntarily sober and celibate. A tough tango.

But I am glad I did not piss you off or insult you. I meant what I said. I like you. I even admire you. And by god, I love what you call me....


yo

I for one am happy you spoke out, tasineah. I've been around long enough to have seen this "familial bickering" in progress, but I've never really become a part of it, which allows me to see it in a objective manner I suppose.

Something else I've seen now and again is it really takes a strong will to "get in" with this crowd. I mean, you really either need some strong opinions, or to be pretty fuckin' weird to get noticed and incorporated into the discussion. I've never been in the thick of things here, mostly because there's so much history between everyone else. I've been mostly content to observe and comment wherever I feel appropriate-that is, mostly the new threads where I feel I can say something new without beating a dead horse.

I guess all I'm saying is that I see a lot of snarky comments toward each other, and they look a lot like what siblings say to each other: "No you!" And when someone comes in that has something new and interesting to say, it's either: That's been done and said before, or it devolves into this pseudo-debate that pretty much forgets the OP, and feels like a recurring argument between family members.

FA...glad YOU spoke up ...so its not just me that sees this cock fighting..and I say cockfighting cuz I dont see the ladies engaging in it.

And yes, you do have to have a strong persona to get in here...and I wonder if even I would have been noticed if I hadnt smacked CD's fine ass on the way in....

Whether CD's ass is fine is subjective at best, I'd wager.

... Say, can I try that out?

... No?

My god, you ARE derailing a thread in a super serious conversation right after you just talked about how it is killing TFP.

Please continue.

nope...he is all mine and what is MINE I dont share...




---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

looks around me, left to right.....looking for anything that says derail....wondering where I said it...I dont think I complained about derailing threads..hell thats half the fun of a good thread, the side conversations that then should be the start of a new thread....

OH DAMN! I was going to start a thread on CD's ass (is it fine or not?) to make my point but I guess I dont have enough posts or something to start a thread...but you get the idea...

I'm on the road that the moment so this is the quick one I can respond to...

nice snark, did that feel good? I think that's that is part of the tone that we discuss in since many of us are familiar with each other.

did you ever stop to think why it's off to the side now? first and foremost it jeopardized accepting paypal payments. second it made it next to impossible to address ts's invitation proposal. Many of us could not easily invite people over here with such kinds of adult material as part of the board, especially when it was the front center reasons for many of us being here in the first place. Finally if I wanted to switch to an advertising model for additional revenue, I couldn't because many terms of service for advertising banners don't allow for adult material to be the content.

as for how many people I have invited, many people at least 10 of my closest friends.

I prefer to not have the porn to be honest

If you want to find porn online it isnt very difficult I think, it was hardly something that differentiated the site.

As I said before, I really think you should consider putting some adverts on the site to raise dough, if thats the issue. I suppose the maybe the reason the site is quite niche is that it isnt tied to anything else... most other forums I have been a part of have been forums dedicated to something (like a game, a sports team, a celebrity, etc...)

_

edit - oh, and I would say the site feels quite clique'y to me if thats a word. For example, I am pretty sure that if I said half the things people say to me (multiple jokes about my weight, personal insults, calling me a troll in every other thread I start) I'd be banned, but people who are part of the clique seem to get away with it. I personally wouldnt want anyone to be banned, and I never report posts of moan that diss me. But it is pretty frustrating getting bashed all the time and feeling like you cant answer back... I guess I am not the only person who feels that way.

But then again, I dont know what the alternative is... if it becomes a free for all that would drive a lot of people away, and at the end of the day when it is quite a small community and by nature a lot of people become friendly, you cant really expect the moderators to ban their mates can you - but it can make things quite insular. Even though there is obviously no deliberate plan to discourage new people, it can still be that way.

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

I aint an expert, but I plenty of out and out porno sites are covered in adverts.

Plenty of good points made in tasineah's post. As someone who is not on the 'inside' but has been here for several years, I can relate to many of the points made. Might be that unless you participate in chat (and I don't) its difficult to relate to references made in posts to threads. But since I don't do chat, its only a supposition. There does seem to be a certain cliqueishness to TFP that I'm guessing makes it difficult for new posters to join in. None of this is intended as I see it, its just the way it is.

This is a very interesting thread and something I've thought about many times in the 7 years+ I've been here. Now I will post some random shit in a numbered list.

1. Facebook has single handedly ruined many forums on the Internet. One forum I used to go to for 4-5 years or so had dozens of posts per day by my friends. The forum was comprised entirely of my friends and little to no outsiders. It thrived. We talked about everything there, and slowly as Facebook got more popular, people stopped posting. One day the owner of the site said "I'm shutting the forum down. People post everything they want the Internet to read on Facebook now. Sorry." And it was gone. Like it or not, the same thing is happening to TFP. Definitely not as drastically, but it's true. Blogs, discussions, they all happen on FB now, except on FB you usually get a response quickly and it's far simpler than going to a forum to do it where everyone you've ever known WON'T see it.

2. The banner at the top saying how broke TFP is and asking us to donate money is discouraging. At first I was like OK ok, we need some upgradez, here's some billz. Then it kept coming every single month. You know what it screams? It screams that the owner of this site doesn't like it enough to pay for it. How's that for encouraging a site's popularity and use? The owner doesn't want to pay for it, or can't. I have a simple question: if TFP is so dead (and I admit it's very, very close to death), then why is the bill so high for it? Axe the functionality of this site, merge half the sub forums, and get the costs down so you don't have a "donate or we die" sign at the top. Seriously.

3. Bring the porn back. It was a huge mistake to move it. You know what, make the porn section even bigger and have intricate little sections about porn. Porn is what started this place so why is it gone now. Dumb.

4. My posts have gone down drastically in the past few years as well and it's because no one gives a shit. When I reply, no one replies to me. When I try to get a discussion going, there's just no one to talk with. In the Tech Section (my favorite obviously) there's little to no activity. There's just no reason to post something I saw on engadget or Kotaku or Wired here because it's been posted and discussed on Facebook already, and because if I post it here, one person will come in and be like "cool" and the thread will die.

Internet forums in general are dying because of the evolution of the Internet. More people are on the Internet now and social networking has cause discussions to move on to Facebook rather than websites made for discussions. TFP doesn't allow the real interesting stuff of the Internet to be posted here (illegal stuff, torrents, cracks, etc.) so the only reason to come here is to get an intelligent discussion going (which doesn't exist because no one posts anymore). It's a cycle that has to be broken somehow. You know, when I think about TFP and why I stay here, it's because of the intelligence and friendly attitude here. Why can't we have intelligent discussions, awesome moderation to prevent flame wars, and some fucking warez. Which direction do you think TFP will go if we offer intelligent discussions, a shitload of non-spam porn, flame-free discussions, and a 1-stop shop for torrents? I know TFP has been totally against this from the beginning but you have to evolve if you want to survive.

In the short term I think TFP needs to get its costs down by eliminating functionality of the site and merging some of the subforums. When I tried to get my friend from work to join here, he said holy shit that's too many subforums and closed the window (quite literally).

Now that we're back on the porn, I'm glad that I can reiterate that it'll get rid of many of the "intelligent" posters and almost certainly nix the female population. Nobody respectable wants to hang out at a porno / discussion site. And I can't post at work on such a site. I'd rather this place not turn into WhatBoysWant.com or Phun.org. I'd have to leave if it did because I don't want a post about someone learning how to play the saxophone beneath a post about "Anal Beads Picz Marathon." I'm sure I'm not alone. Porn and warez might be good for business but they defeat the purpose of the site.

You can hang the TFP title on a porn site, but it's still just a porn site. Forums are dying because peoples' braincells and willpower are declining.

I don't have Facebook, I don't like Facebook... but my perspective on "The Death of Forums" is that people are lazy. SMS has become a language because people have a hard time operating the shift key and got a C in ENG-302. When they have questions, they get answers from the closest person they can when they need something. A forum isn't about that. A forum is about meeting strange new people with different perspectives, right?

TFP is outside my social network. I'd never have met any of you on Facebook. Before TFP, I'd never conversed with a Canadian.

I am better for having found this place. I'd like to work to keep it going in a positive way.

^^

1. facebook is only a facilitator, not a replacement, if evolving a relatively large group is our actual goal here.
2. Reminding us that it takes money to do this is not offensive.
3. (whatever)
4. I completely give a shit.

Why should "the real interesting stuff" be here if it's ?able & available elsewhere to those who want it?

"Eliminating functionality" is perilously close to suicide.

A couple of things:

I really wish I could get someone to define who is in the "in" crowd and who isn't. Because, honestly, I've got no fucking clue. And every time there's one of these self-observant, navel-gazing threads, that term gets thrown out there, and I'll be damned if I know who's in or out. Long, long ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I wasn't on staff, I KNEW that I wasn't in the "in" crowd. And I was fine with that. Then, literally out of the blue, someone who was on staff at the time told me I should apply. Now I'm apparently a part of the "in" crowd even though the median feeling among members about me is "mild-to-moderate dislike". And I'm fine with that.

When I read a thread, I make it a point to read (and sometimes reread every single post), provided that it's not two sentences from someone I don't know in a serious discussion (mainly because if you can't be bothered to type more, I assume that you're just trying to artificially raise your post count, which makes me pay attention to you in a different way). So I don't directly quote you, don't get offended. I read what you had to say, but I probably agreed with most, if not all, of what you had to say.

Why don't we? Because it's illegal and will get us shut down. Limewire used to be "the shit" back in the day, but it's gone now. We've allowed some very limited torrent stuff, but we're not set up to host anything serious. And I will personally fight you tooth-and-nail to keep most of that stuff out of here because I don't think that the risk even begins to approach the rewards.

Cyn's already given everybody a really good reason why the porn has moved - IT KILLS ALL OF OUR FUNDING. Again, PayPal will drop our account(s) if they see that porn is involved. Don't like it? Blame them. There aren't many other secure services that we can use, and sending cash in the mail is a bad idea.

Finally, 9er, we've picked a direction. We're moving to it. This thread was started as more of a heads-up than anything else.

This says more about dude's attention span than it does the website. If you can't be bothered to read the ~30 no-shit categories, you probably can't be bothered to post anything useful other than a LOL or FTW. This is why America doesn't go to libraries and why we have 600 channels but "nothing is on."

I missed how having the porn makes us lose money. Trash the porn then...

notice I said "us". I feel "part of" whether agreed with or not. I am not one of your "in" crowd and knowing my personality, no matter how long I am here, I will never be part of it. I stand pretty much on my own but I still belong. But you all need to stop denying there is a clicheyness to this site. You could begin by not using terms like "navel gazing threads" which pretty much is saying that most shit written in this thread is deemed not worthy of (fill in the blank) and are worthless self absorbant mewlings..yah...REAL encouragment for newcomers and less vocal veteran members to start/continue writing. If anyone had an opinion and read that little quip, they would think twice about posting and bringing the wrath of the almighty down on them.

you all ARE a tough bunch...damn...you are so invested you just dont see yourselves from the outside.

Bingo. I do, too. Roachboy can mop the floor with my ass all day long but I still feel like if I said something halfway intelligent, he'd acknowledge it. I learn a lot from the people I don't necessarily agree with. I argue with Snowy about marijuana, I think DK is a nutjob extremist, I totally dig Shauk's weird stories, etc... but I genuinely value their input because it isn't me feeding me the shit I wanna hear. If that's defined as conflict then it's safe to say that I get off on it. I wouldn't get this anywhere else, especially not from my "social network" of like-minded baby-killers. TFP puts fiber in my mental diet.

Where's your legendary prostate-punching confidence? And let's redefine the "in crowd" as people that post once a week instead of those that post nothing and then act all neglected when the board has problems. If you're not posting, how does anybody know you're even here? I don't want to hear the bullshit about how people's posts get ignored. I've posted and bombed plenty of threads (Nobody wanted to take pictures of their knees, I see how it is). It's just page inches. Get over it. You can't drop an earthshatterer every day, guys. The point is that you have to Say Anything.

Huh, I don't see it like that. I think the Jazz's comment was a sarcastic pointer that reflects the sentiment of threads like this where everybody is standing around with their arms folded. People come out of the woodwork to express their opinion only at the lowest point instead of saying something at any other time or actively participating in the site. This isn't a middle school dance where you look around to see what everybody else is doing to make sure you're not too weird. It's okay to put yourself out there. Some of you post your dicks, for chrissakes. It's the anonymous Intarweb. No excuses.

Invested in what? Trying to get people that have been here for almost a decade to act like you for ten seconds and post something... anything?

I've been thinking about this thread off and on since it was posted, and knew the minute it appeared that some statement about the supposed "in-crowd" would appear. 9er hit the nail on the head: the supposed "in-crowd" is people who post, create threads, and attempt to generate discussion around here. If those are the criteria, and I do think they are, then it is a fairly easy thing to join, is it not?

And 9er, I posted my knees! They were terrible pictures, but I posted just the same. And I think we've all created our fair share of threads that went nowhere. But at least we tried!

Whatever it takes to keep this place going and active, I'll do it.

Plan9 wrote: Where's your legendary prostate-punching confidence?

God I love it when you talk to me like that....

to answer: its here. It hasnt gone anywhere. Posting doesnt make me part of the in crowd. Yesterday you called me one of the weird ones. I liked it. Thats where I belong, not part of a flock of sheep that form some kind of wall that keeps people out of the inner flock. Seriously, again, its there...


and I agree, people need to post, post anything. But I am also saying why I think some of them arent....this is a tough group to crack. I have balls. Most people arent so ballsy as I am. Just saying....

and when can I be allowed to start threads? I SOOO want to get some going....

I remember. And Uncle Phil went above and beyond. Way above and beyond. I was afraid to scroll down at one point.

Righteous.

...

That's good, because I was referring to you as an individual who posted something weird. We're individuals. Each of us is different. There is no groupthink. Using Weaponry as an example, each dude of the In Crowd (TM) there has different philosophies on the usefulness of gun laws. I'm pretty sure the more experienced guys see me as a giant retard, but they don't step on my dick too much and correct me gently when I'm wrong.

What is so goddamn tough about hiding behind a friggin' username and posting a question or thought? I have questions and thoughts all the time and I've got an IQ similar to a Dark Chocolate Raisinette. This isn't Faceyspace, I'm not going to see your girlfriend or find out where you live. Your boss and your mother shouldn't know about TFP. Come here to post your thoughts, not just to ogle Exhibition or whatever the hell it is that goes on here.

because we ARENT screen names. We are humans behind screen names. Maybe to you, its all about a cohesive jumble of letters on a forum but to me and probably to some others, I see the human behind the posts. Its why I am here or I would damn well just read a book on the subject of the post. Forums are interactive. WITH PEOPLE.

and for the record, niners, your iq is above a dark chocolate raisenette...

and yelling olly olly oxenfree isnt going to work either when you have a scowl on your face..and thats how it comes off...like a pack of kids, some poking other kids and saying "how come you arent speaking up, huh, bubba?"

yeah...Bubba's gonna talk now, for sure... porn or food...thats what will work. Since neither can be had in cyber then I guess you have to resort to people skills....

Plan9said:

What is so goddamn tough about hiding behind a friggin' username and posting a question or thought? I have questions and thoughts all the time and I've got an IQ similar to a Dark Chocolate Raisinette. This isn't Faceyspace, I'm not going to see your girlfriend or find out where you live. Your boss and your mother shouldn't know about TFP. Come here to post your thoughts, not just to ogle Exhibition or whatever the hell it is that goes on here.[/QUOTE]

It wasn't meant as snark really, I don't even use that portion of TFP, not now, not then. I would stop in and see if there was anything worth looking at once in a while but for the most part I just wasn't in the mood for that kind of stuff if I was in the mood to come to TFP in the 1st place. but you said it yourself "it was the front center reasons for many of us being here in the first place"

I was just saying it seems a bit ironic to say that "this attracts people" but have a different model in place than what helped tfp get off the ground with new traffic anyway.

I think the motto that kind of developed out of the "how did you hear about tfp" thread was pretty much "came for the porn, stayed for the conversation"

now it's "came for the.... ?"

I understand the reasons it's offsite now, I was here when it happened. I'm just saying, while it's fair to be disappointed that the site has turned in to what it is at the moment, it's not fair to be disappointed that changing the forum, changed the forum community.

as for inviting people I know, I can't do it. I am a fractured individual. I am a different person for different people. I am all of those facets but not to everyone. I have to reel in certain elements of myself because some people just can't handle it, whatever it be, my bluntness, my taste in music, my sense of humor, etc.. It was hard enough just being myself around my dad after I found out he had been on this site reading everything I had been writing for who knows how long.

Sometimes I'm just blatantly honest about how shitty a friend has been treating me, or a relationship is going. If those people are here, I lose that outlet because I have to begin censoring myself.


It seems to me you guys have the same sort of disconnect going on on this forum that many of the others I've been on have had, basically, my theory is it comes down to the rise of social networking.

People were drawn to forums before the age of myspace/facebook/etc because it was a way to get to converse and meet people online about topics that interested them.

Take the music scene, forums I've been on regarding electronic music as an example have experienced a steep decline in meaningful content, and have also devolved in to pointless posts about what they had for dinner last night or something. Event invitations and flyering have gone social. Get a few facebook social behemoths on your friend list, let say 5 people with 500 friends a piece, they repost your invitation and you've got 2500 people exposed to this invite to your event now.

same thing with any topic really. Create content, post content, watch your friends share content, so on & so on.

anyways, forgot where I was going with all that, Sorry if I came across like a troll.

What's a Facebook? I kid. I don't use Facebook, I don't have one and I don't want one. TFP is my online social network for my daily dose of awesome people I've never met.

Post #72 by Plan9 is exactly how I feel. Before TFP, I never heard a Muslim's point of view or saw so many different view points in one website. I think this forum still has great potential to do great things because of what it stands for: intelligent, "call it as you see it" discussion. It's a little off-putting to see so many people here thinking that this place is going down the shitter. Granted, it's only a couple people that think like that compared to the many more who don't, but the negativity won't solve anything. Also, I know it's already been hit on a few times, but keep the porn off. I like to think of TFP as a classy, "pinky out when drinking" forum, and porn would ruin that. Besides, I get my porn off of shady Googled sites that probably infect my computer with more viruses than Carmen Electra. Lame attempt at funny.

Bottom line: TFP and it's group of people (all members) know what needs to be done for the comeback to greatness to take place. Maybe I'm just blinded by the good things I get out of this site, but all we need is some fresh blood to get a few new opinions. And people need to post more about whogivesafuck what.

This guy reads 2 novels a week, is more of a computer guru than myself, and doesn't have any sort of cable tv plan.

There's no getting around that TFP has too many sub forums. Back in the day they were needed but not now. It just makes the place look empty.

As with most of my responses in these kinds of threads, someone landed exactly on my point but didn't pause to think about it before rushing off to complain about what I said.

There we have it. Either you feel like you're a part of the site or you don't. Most of the time folks go back and forth. That's why I wish someone would define, even roughly, who on the "in" crowd here. And what keeps someone "out". If you don't have the self-confidence to post your opinion on a fairly anonymous message board, clearly we're not your issue.

Here's the deal: the senior staff (admins) spend probably 40 hours a week working on the site, both up front like this and behind the scenes. Personally, I ban 15-20 spammers a week, most of them before they get the chance to post. That's all volunteer work, folks.

Could we be more welcoming of new folks? Absolutely, and we need to be. I wish I had time to personally welcome every single new member (that's not a spammer) but I've got a wife, 2 kids, a job that pays me more than I deserve and, you know, A LIFE. As I usually end up saying in every one of these kinds of threads, if your major complaint includes the staff doing/not doing something, it's entirely within your power to correct that. Unless you're flaming someone (ok, us [ok, me]) while you're "fixing" it (for lack of a better term), we're not going to care.

TFP is exactly what YOU, the member make it. It's not the staff. We put up the framework and make sure that it stays sturdy. It's YOUR job as the member to fill in everything within that framework. How often do we close threads? (Answer: less than 10 this year)

There are some very major changes on the horizon. We need to figure out how some of them are going to mechanically work first, but we're close. We're fixing one huge problem than I'd bet that there aren't more than 5 folks who aren't on staff know even existed. And it will make things so much easier on both the front and back end for us, that it's worth me posting 3 times in the kind of thread that I despise.

So what's the deal with the TFP finances? What makes it take up so much money each month? DB size? Bandwidth? Is there anything that can be done to make the monthly expenses go down?

We've got a shitty deal on server space. We're fixing that.

We've got a shitty deal on bandwith. We're fixing that.

The video chat software was expensive to buy and to run. We can't fix that.

We've been operating at a loss for the last 4 months at least.

Since when is posting a link to a reputable torrent illegal? I don't want TFP hosting anything. But what's wrong with a section or even a single thread with some useful links? The worst that can happen is a threat and then the thread is deleted.

And I donated money to TFP through paypal LOOONG before the porn was gone. Why can't you make a paypal for yourself and just ask people to donate to you instead of the TFP entity?

No, the worst that can happen is that the RIAA or one of their pals accuses of something in court and we have to defend it. There have been sites that have been crushed by that, and we have no interest in joining them. We have no way of effectively policing every torrent, which we would have to do to make sure that none of it is illegal in any of the venues where we have a sizeable number of members.

But maybe you're just complaining about something without being aware of the whole picture:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/members...ng-thread.html

1) Paypal changed their tune a few years ago. Maybe your donation was back before they cracked down.
2) Why should I or any other individual have to be responsible for it? Why would you trust us to be?

Lasereth, the porn isn't coming back. If that's a deal killer for you, I'm sorry that you won't be with us down the road. I'll miss you, but I'd rather the site grow into what the majority wants it to be rather than the rather small minority (of which you're a part) wants.

Lol I don't want the porn back. I rarely went to that part of the site. I'm just stating what I believe is best for TFP. I like it off site because now I don't feel like the site is NSFW. But in the end I think it made the site what it was during the higher activity days.

Thanks guys. OCM, the discussion going on since your last post makes my point better than I could. I don't have any issue with your OPs aside from that I don't always get them, but that's fine. What I'd like to emphasize about what I'm specifically pointing at with the post an image threads is that it isn't something that searches very well unless it's something like the zeigfield girls or the cosplay threads. Those are very specific and they drove some extreme traffic to us on several occasions.

There was a group of people that spun off from this site, some of you old timers may remember them. They asked me to come along and I said I couldn't but I would visit them from time to time. As I watched them put their own space together, Prometheus Forums or something like that, likening their claim to having stolen the fire and made a space for themselves. They create a council as their staff to make sure that it was even handed and not dictatorial. They had a technical guy put up the forums. A benefactor to pay for the site and collect donations to keep it afloat.

They had all the same kinds of things we had here, a group of like minded, respectful individuals who wanted to talk to each other. When they asked me my opinion of their setup and how they were doing from an outsider's perspective. I said, how will you get new members? What will attract them to your space? The witty banter that goes back and forth? The creation of new discussions isn't happening and you need to address that.

After a couple of years, I checked in on them and couldn't find their website. Those members that I still keep in contact with, don't know what happened to it, as they got bored and wandered off before it was taken off line. But the moral of this story is about the same as ts's. The forum died. Was facebook the culprit there? No this was years before facebook.

There has to be some give and take to this idea of evolving. It's not just the community but the staff as well, and possibly how we've setup the software.

People have put forth some good ideas and suggestions and each time I have posited these discussions, I've not let them fall by the wayside but pick through them and see what seems feasible enough to work and implement them.

As far as the finances go, Halx always counted on the community to fund this project. There are three ways that forums make their income. Donations, sponsors/ad revenue, and purchase click through.

I know that Halx tried to keep the advertising model away from here. He tried it once and it worked with one banner. The adsense stuff he had took care of a good amount of income and no one ever knew that it existed, even without an adblocker. It was killed because Google had an issue with some adult content not the porn but it still was enough to revoke the adsense account.

As far as paypal is concerned, it was all going to a personal account. Someone flagged it and Halx lost that paypal account and started another. That game was played for some time but now that we don't have the porn it's no longer a problem.

shauk, thanks. I got what you were saying, I was just trying to show how we know each other in a manner of familiarity to ts's point. I too am like you where I'm different person to different people. I don't share TFP with just any of my friends they have to be respectful and open minded enough, and unfortunately there aren't as many people in the world like that as there should be.

back to the finances, the server costs as much as it does because of colocation. We own our server and it needs to rent space in a datacenter. We don't have a great price, but for the traffic we now generate, it's expensive for what it is. I'd like to get better pricing on it, and Halx and I at one point thought of putting TFP into the cloud. I'm not sure we'd fare better pricing with that model, but I do think of how to reduce the costs to something small.

I have been trying to figure out how to switch us to a subscription model so that those that want to donate to us can do so simple and monthly without much hassle. I have to make some adjustments to how we do business, and that's something that is for sure coming.

Right now not only is there the RIAA to be worried about but there are copyright items to be somewhat concerned about. I've been working on it so there is a clear path that needs to be followed and I'll be unveiling that in the next day or so. Unfortunately it does mean I'll be asking for more money because lawyers don't work for free, even when they are my friend. Gas, grass, or ass as the saying goes.

As far as the 4 months thing, Jazz we just crossed the line with just a few hours to spare left in the month. October we've broken even!

re: posting stuff and facebook, I'm just as guilty of that as anyone. Any of the members here who are my FB friends can testify that I've posted more things there then I have here in months. It's so easy with the "Share on Facebook" button. If there was one like that for TFP, it would be excellent. I've been wondering just how I could create such a thing because it would make thread creation that much easier.

I wasn't planning on such a long reply, I just got back from Maine, and I'm tired. It's been a long weekend with all the stuff going on (wedding and finding out my father being hospitalized) and trying to keep up with this and other threads here on TFP.

I like to think that these threads have become less adversarial and more about the community understanding what is happening and how we as members (remember staff is a member first and a staffer second) should deal with the challenges we're faced. I like to think of it as no different than those "help I don't know what to do with my girlfriend who wants to break up with me" type of threads. I've got to get some rest now.

Threads like this show that we can still have a discussion, quite a lengthy one at that. When it is something people care about the responses are more thought out and less joke oriented. At least this shows we do still care about the forum.

Why do we have a video chat? I can't remember the last time I checked on it and there was someone else there. The only difference between TFP video chat and, say, AIM or Skype is that TFP is in my browser (thus slower) and is grainer. And no one is ever on.

Do you need help with finding a reliable host? I can ask around if you are serious (and 4 months of loss seems serious to me).

Yeah, I'm with Will. Video chat is expensive and mostly abandoned except for Saturday nights (?).

The last few months I went in there, I was alone for the bulk of the time. Somebody correct me.

I think when TinyChat was first stood up it was novel and got a lot of play because it hadn't been done.

But then people got pissed off when others actually talked in VideoChat and that whole nudity thing.

I can vouch that the chat room gets used daily, because I'm in there daily. Granted, we could probably do just fine with IRC, but the video chat is a great extra for our community and I'm very much in favour of it.

I'd also be all for a subscription model. I don't even think it needs to confer any extras, necessarily -- I'd be willing to kick $10 or so per month your way simply because it needs doing. I've actually been thinking about tossing another $50 or so in the collection plate once I get things settled here, but if there's serious work being done on a subscription model I'll reduce that and sign up for the monthly plan when it's available. I'm sure there are others in the community who'd be just as willing to take on a share of the cost for this place, though I wouldn't presume to actually speak for anyone. Can we get the full costs covered that way? I have no idea, but at the very least it'll reduce the amount needed from the nag-o-meter.

The finances are important, but I think it's equally important to not let this detract from our main point of discussion -- without content, we're funding an empty box.

I guess Baraka_Guru's got the heart of it, though -- we're in the realm of Nike. Just Do It. Good, bad or indifferent, more posts gives more discussion points leads to more members. Maybe my Canadian internet thread would help to attract fellow Canadian nerds Or maybe it'll die after one post. Either way, it might as well go up.

So yeah, I'll do that in the next day or so, and try to get stuff more often.

All of this bickering and bullshit really doesn't get us anywhere. You think you know what TFP should be? Great! Get out there and start making it that.

Essentially this is about activation. Getting members to participate more frequently and with greater depth. However looking at it only from a member perspective may leave larger gains untouched. As I type this, there are 326 users online of which only 25 are members! Last night I saw similar numbers. I assume its pretty much like this all the time. Why? Why won't the nonregistered viewers join and participate? About 8% of the viewers are members meaning no more than 8% of the viewers of TFP will ever participate. There is a much greater potential in getting the nonregistered activated and participating than trying to squeeze more out of the members.

And along these lines, what has caused so many active members to fade off and disappear? There are several members that I enjoyed reading that no longer are involved. Why did they leave? Is there any way of finding out? As important as gaining new active participants its even more important to maintain the group that is here. Membership churn will not accomplish anything.

I realize the points I bring up are more rhetorical than anything as active members can't answer for those who aren't members nor for those who are no longer active, but it does seem to me that those two groups should also be considered when searching for answers.

i've been thinking about this thread from time to time. like alot of folk my 4-space life is busier than i'd like it to be and that's forced changes in my usage of alot of things, including tfp. since everything is a function of one's perspective, i figure it's important to note changes at that level first.

so i've got more stuff going on, sometimes as stuff to do sometimes as stuff to avoid, but there we are.

the community---well, the subcommunity that i swim about in mostly, which centers on politics---that sub-community feels really small these days. and it's difficult to have terribly intricate discussions that aren't like snowball fights, two lines of boys hurling things at each other. sometimes it's possible, but usually not so much.

and i'm a part of why that happens....i like to think that's not the case....and sometimes it's not. ... but other times it is. that bothers me a little, that does. it leads to one of those chicken-egg questions, whether the change is in me or in the community or in the broader world and it's obviously all the above but in no particular mixture.

for myself, i would like to be part of moving discussions about politics forward, toward something else, but sometimes it feels like it's just not going to go. the only way forward seems to do like beckett sez: try again. fail. start again. fail better.

the problem with political discussion at the moment is likely a function of the small, relatively self-contained sub-community that frequents that space. it seems that this group shares a preference for a different kind of engagement from what happens in other forums, even as they way we collectively use that preference is to pelt each other with snowballs and such. political discussion could always use more folk. and while it's often a bit rough and tumble and gets exasperating for everyone (i've no doubt of that) at one point or another, it is an interesting crew.
but more people, more threads=mo better.


there's also the bigger Situation Problem and its reflection(s) in how political discourse works, particularly in the states. when the cliche was coined "may you not live in interesting times" what i think it meant was that periods that historians and other people who get for whatever reason to make such determinations after the fact decide is an "interesting time" is experienced by the people who live through it as incoherent, difficult, problematic to stage clearly, difficult to think through or about.
and these are interesting times we live in.
if a generalized incoherence proves anything at all, it's that.

btw--i dont know how one would go about correlating messageboard usage with that of other social media. it doesn't seem to me that a messageboard does the same things as facebook or twitter at all, so imagine them as operating in parallel worlds rather than as mutually exclusive. but then again, i don't play farmville so maybe i dont really understand anything about how facebook can eat time.

I had to stay away from this thread because I felt like I couldn't post maturely on it - I'm still not certain I can. The OP reads like a threat, like "if you don't post more content I'm taking away your toys" sort of threat. For whatever reason I respond really poorly to threats, and I usually egg on the person threatening me, to my own detriment.

With that said, I couldn't really see what the problem was from the numbers posted. Is it that there are not enough *different* voices, or just that there aren't enough voices in general? I think we attract a certain type of person and so I tend to think we mostly agree on everything except contentious topics like religion and politics. If that causes a sense of stagnation (not enough disagreement) than that is entirely a different problem of not having enough posts.

I'm not really sure what can be done in terms of more threads, more post, more new people because I really don't like the idea that people would start threads or posts just to appear more busy than it really is. That seems awfully artificial. If it's *only* a monetary concern, that's another matter entirely. I'd support a 'subscription' thing, so long as it didn't make it seem like an even more exclusive 'insider/outsider' thing than we've already got people arguing exists. TFP is as good of as any other charity to donate to, as far as I'm concerned. Some of the advice I've have received here (and continue to receive) is far cheaper than a psychologist would be. It'd be a high ROI for me, if I look at it entirely selfishly. :)

I can say I have seen the problem slowly creeping up for a while. I just think in some ways this thread is best used to make us aware of the fact that the new threads were declining. And if we do value this forum (which I do), we should post.

There are definitely a lot of people who just read the forum, without participating. That is their choice, but if we do not participate ever, the forum will continue to decline.

Since this post was started, just look at how many new topics threads were started. I just take this as a boost for the engine.

Guilt-powered?