Tully Mars

I might be looking at this wrong, I'm no biblical scholar (I know, I know... you're all shocked,) but these folks seem stuck in the Old Testament. I mean it seems rather old to call yourself a Christian and disregard most of what Jesus actual said.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

levite

Some might say they're stuck in radical misinterpretations of the Old Testament...

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

dlish

good to see good heads prevailing

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

levite

Yeah. Just for the record, this was one occasion I was not toeing the line with the ADL.

If it's a free country, it's a free country. That means folks can build houses of worship wherever they like, even if it's near folks who don't like their religion.

Simple as that. Doesn't matter who these Muslims are, or what their politics are, or how they felt about 9/11. It's a free country.

Nice to see that the courts occasionally recall that fact.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

dlish

to be honest, i couldnt care less who the group was. Even if they were satanists, i'd still have supported their right to their own community centre.

as long as the group meets with the council planning policies and is above board in all its actions, then everyone has a right to do as they please with their own centres.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

raging moderate

Not being able to speak as eloquently as Levite, I'd just say this - what a bunch of morons. Burn the Quran if you must, it's not like it's going to go away just because you burn a few copies of it, only thing your doing is making money for whoever the publisher is of the edition you are burning. In fact just throw yourself in there with it and do us all a favor. As whoever said earlier, it's the media coverage of this that's really the problem, if people would just ignore groups like this, they would be far less effective....

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These are the good old days...



formerly Murp0434

Baraka_Guru

You know, it all comes down to the fact that this is a radical fringe group responding to their own fears. They view Islam not as a legitimate religion, but as a tool of the devil. This is dangerous because who's to say they'll stop at burning books?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

coincidentally, i just realised that this date coincides with the islamic festival Eid Al-Fitr marking the end of Ramadan.

should make for an interesting time considering it's the anniversary of September 11, Eid Al-Fitr, combined with a book burning spectacle.

I do hope that muslims can see past this little stunt. Sure, its the muslim holy book, but the Quran was revealed orally, and no amount of book burning can extinguish what is contained within it.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Walt

I don't see how the burning Quran is considered un-Christian when the Bibles prescribed punishment for idolatry is to stone the offender to death.

From what I understand of it, the Bible is not to be interpreted, nor is the Old Testament to be summarily dismissed. The Bible is the word of an omnipotent God; When an all-powerful and all-knowing God says something, he means that shit. All of it.

If anything, these knuckleheads that are burning Qurans are more Christian than most.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

dlish

now that you mention it, how very christian of them.

theres been numerous book burnings by many christians over the years. sadly most book burnings are because one group wants to keep the other quiet.

Book burning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Baraka_Guru

The entire Christian faith is built on appropriation, stifling descent, and conversion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't seem to recall in my vague history studies a paranoid Islamic reaction to the Christianization of the world.


And this idea of Islam being an illegitimate religion? Why don't we ask the Jews about Christ. He didn't even fulfill the requirements as the messiah. Or am I wrong about that too?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

levite

No. He didn't.

But I also don't feel I should criticize the religions of others if they can make them work. I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that Christianity has a lot of bad history to make up for, and some of the Christian "leaders" around the US (especially) are amazing examples of total a-holes. But if we start condemning all Christianity for James Dobson, Pat Robertson, et al., then why not Islam for their radicals, or Judaism for the ultra-Orthodox fringe lunatics?

And some of the Christians I've met actually manage to do a pretty impressive job of sorting through all the bullshit and actually living lives that Jesus (who, if he wasn't the Messiah, was still really a pretty damn good guy) would be proud of.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Baraka_Guru

I was born and raised non-religious, and I don't believe in deities, but from what I know about core Christian teachings based on Jesus, and about the historical Jesus, I truly wish more people would live accordingly—the world would be a better place. The world would be a better place if more Christians were...more Christian.

I sometimes I wish I were Christian so I could defend my faith against these idiots. I do think Christianity has values worth defending.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

FuglyStick

Carefull, BG; you'll have the fanatical atheists burning you at the stake for finding anything admirable about religion, the only truly evil thing in the world in their eyes.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

Baraka_Guru

The fanatical atheists can kiss my ass. I'm hanging onto my capacity for reason despite what they think or say.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Dunedan

Not exactly. Some (most?) Protestant denominations work this way, but not the Catholics (Roman or Eastern), the various Orthodox sects, the Copts, or the Armenians. Most of the pre-Reformation sects of Christianity treat the Bible as a collection of numerous things: instructions, prophesies, history, military statistics and strategy, allegory, and social station-keeping tales like the stories of Ruth, Esther, and the Bros. Maccabees. Leaf through a Catholic or Coptic Bible sometime: most of the good ones are full of footnotes denoting when something is, for instance, allegorical (and should be treated as such) or instructive, and explaining why the difference is important in the given context. The idea of the total inerrancy of the Bible (and the follow-on doctrine known as Sola Scriptora) was a reaction to the power of the Papacy to make such definitions, and the power (or tendency) of individual clergy to use certain passages to make whatever point they felt like at the time. Biblical Inerrancy was not, and is not, taught in most pre-Reformation denominations. This is why the Catholic Churches, for instance, have had less trouble with theories like Heliocentrism or Evolution.

Ourcrazymodern?

Since this thread's been bent, I feel free to confess a sin:

At hotels I remove Deuteronomy from the bibles. My dashboard Jesus is jumping up & down on one copy, rolled.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

levite

That's I bit ironic, IMO. Deuteronomy is where many of the most socially progressive laws are found, and much of the most forward Biblical theology in the Torah. I would've thought Leviticus a much likelier target for animus against the Hebrew Scriptures, since that has so many of the sexual prohibitions, anti-idolatry prohibitions, and cultic sacrificial rules that dislikers of the Bible usually find so problematic.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

snowy

It's flippin' hard to do, and it's hard because I feel that I'm getting squeezed from both sides, and I expect many liberal Christians feel the same way. Can't get any respect from the conservatives who take the Bible literally, and I can't get any respect from atheists, either, for having beliefs tempered with reason. Also, a lot of people just presume that Christians must be the fundamentalist nutcases they see on the news--just like they presume all Muslims must be fundamentalists, etc.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

glasscutter43

Yet another example of why I have no imaginary friends.

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Book 'em Danno

dlish

or better yet, you'll have the fanatical christians burning you at the stake for being a heathen.

thank god (wheres the irony?) you live in 2010

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

snowy

Ugh...I know.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Baraka_Guru

Do you want to know how many Christians live less like Jesus than I do?

No, I don't want to know either.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ourcrazymodern?

//Leviticus, levite, except for the unfortunate anti-homo (18:22), pro-slavery (25:44-46), divine threats (26), & priestly valuations (27) strikes me as extensive minutiae regarding activities many of us don't do anymore & good advice about how to treat each other otherwise. I particularly like 19:15, about judging thoughtfully.

Deuteronomy explains where it came from and what it is in 17:18. The wholesale slaughter & appropriation of others' possessions at the start & the rest of it extolling the virtues of one sub-type over EVERYBODY else offend me greatly - so dashboard Jesus jumps.//

But you see that that's part of the problem? Taking a story more seriously than another to such an extent causes us to do inexcusable things to each other. The Quran (or whatever) burners are like suicide bombers with less courage in their convictions, not really considering the nature of what they do.

I hope you don't think this comprises animus toward the Hebrew scriptures. I think in more general terms as a humanist.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Amaras

Burning books is wrong, period.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

Ourcrazymodern?

I agree, but haven't you read any creepy shit you wish you hadn't? Maybe the burners think they can undo it.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

dlish

book burning is the exact opposite of bridge building.

i dont think this is about un-reading something, but rather a provokation with the intention to incite.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Ourcrazymodern?

I admire your tact & am content we agree. Would you join me in thinking these ideas are our most divisive?

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Walt

You've obviously never been forced to read Nicholas Sparks.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Ourcrazymodern?

The news has it the splitters are going ahead with it...

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

FuglyStick

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AZIZ! LIGHT!

Strange Famous

I guess to me this gets to the heart of the freedom of speech/expression argument

People WILL die as a result of these acts of blasphemy. American serviceman serving in Afghanistan will die as a direct result of the backlash these actions will cause if they go ahead.

I guess you have to consider, does this church have the right to express their hostility in Islam in this way and cause directly the death of innocent people and American soliders?

Personally I dont believe so - these actions would be criminal in the UK (as Incitement) and I believe that is correct. In America I understand freedom of speech is an idea far more enshrined in the ideal of the nation... but in this case other people will pay the price of it.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ourcrazymodern?

Dove World Outreach Center should have a little field trip arranged for them. The news of whatever they do could be squelched, could it not? Can't a majority prevent a few?

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Amaras

Nope, can't say that I have.
I also agree that this is all about attracting attention to some wee small
wacky cause. Fairly successful at it, too.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

The_Dunedan

Why? Because you don't like what's being said/done? Because others will suffer?

Guess what: others ALWAYS suffer. I think this "pastor" is an idiot, and a False Prophet, and I think you're correct that US and UK troopers will suffer for what he does. But the -reason- they will suffer is because neo-Islamic totalitarian radicals, who have yet to pull their heads out of the 14th Century (to say nothing of growing thicker skins), have the self-control of a bull elephant in Must. It offends me when I see Asshole Atheists burning the Bible: do I got out and kill Atheists, or burn down libraries, or advocate violence against them? No, I say "God those people are jerks!" and change the fucking channel. If one bunch of morons pisses off another bunch of morons because neither group can manage to act like ruttin' ADULTS for a change that's hardly a reason to curtail free speech.

The idiotic behavior of a bunch of overgrown children should not be taken as an excuse to limit the freedoms of actual adults.

Baraka_Guru

This is the religious equivalent of burning a giant cross on a black family's front lawn.

...except more national- and/or global-like.

They want Muslims out of America.

At the very least, they're gearing up for "the greatest spiritual battle of our age."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Dunedan

Not unless they're having their bonfire on someone else's property. Are they doing this at a Mosque, or in someone's yard, or on their own property? Part of the threat implicit in cross-burning is "We know where you live. We can come and get you if we feel like it." Nobody really cares about Kluxxers burning crosses on their own land, because that element of direct threat is absent. You're comparing a direct, concrete threat to an act of free, if repugnant, speech. Apples and cinderblocks.

And? They're free to believe, want, and advocate for whatever they like. This is America. There are likewise small groups of extremist Muslims who want Americans out of America...along with everywhere else they can think of. There are extremist Zionist Jews who want all non-Jews out of all the lands they claim. Big surprise: stupid people want stupid, ofttimes unattainable, things. Sometimes even -smart- people want these things. And, this being America, so long as they do not directly harm another person, they are free to think, and desire, as they like.

And? So long as their battle remains spiritual as opposed to physical, they can "gear up" for, and fight, all the battles they want. Again; this is America.

Wes Mantooth

Yup I've got to agree Dune, it may be repulsive but people have a right to express themselves as long as they aren't hurting anyone else or trampling on someone else's freedoms and such. Ugly shit like this might sometimes be the result of having freedom of speech but you have to take the good with the bad if you don't want people monkeying around with it.

__________________

Baraka_Guru

The comparison isn't direct. The message is similar. The result is different. They are in a sense firing a volley in their "spiritual battle." Either way, it's sending a message that they don't approve of "their kind" in America.

And my point wasn't to challenge or question their freedom to believe, want, or advocate whatever they like. It was to point out their intolerance and ignorance, and to remind people that it has a history. That's America, but I live in Canada—within a deeply multicultural metropolis—where I guess I'm a little bit more appalled at such displays of freedom.

I'm not challenging their freedom; I'm challenging their ideas and their message.

The spiritual and the physical have a lot of crossover, hence the Qur'ans and the fire. They are inciting a reaction from the Muslim population and they know it. They're going to play off of every little documented reaction to their little campout and use that as evidence to prove their case that Islam "is of the devil," and this will only add more fuel to the fire.

But, wait, they can totally do that, because it's America. You don't need to keep reminding me that this is happening in America. I know where it's happening, and I could list off several other places where the exact same thing could happen. That's not the point.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

uncle phil

fella by the name of Goethe came up with this quote many, many years ago and it is so fitting, in my mind, to this issue:

"there is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action..."

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
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"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
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never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.