rahl

So last weekend I attended a baptism. I am the Godfather. I feel somewhat hypocritical because I am not a practicing catholic, nor have I been since I graduated from Catholic Highschool. The parents of the baby aren't either, it's more of a just in case I'm wrong thing.

What I find funny, and the purpose of this thread, is that after the priest performed the baptism the father and mother handed him an envelope with $300 in it. Apparently this is common, and expected by the priests. I haven't been to a catholic mass in about 10 years. Back then it lasted about 40 minutes. Now they last over an hour, with extra time devoted to the collection basket being passed around.

I really don't have a point, I'm just sort of laughing/ranting at the fact that the catholic church preaches humility and modest living, but has no problem raking in the dough.

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The_Jazz

Oral Roberts. 'Nuf said.

Catholics don't even begin to have a corner on the money market. And they're at least fairly up-front about it.

That said, most parishes exist on these things. There are lots of parishes that closed in Chicago because the Church couldn't afford to keep them open. It costs a lot of money to run one.

Full disclosure - I'm not even a lapsed Catholic. I don't have a religion and I don't want one.

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SecretMethod70

Just like any other church. And, actually, the Catholic Church is a lot better than many other churches when it comes down to it. Having been raised Catholic, it was shocking to me when I found out onodrim's childhood church (Missouri Synod Lutheran) sent biannual reports of how much money you've given to the church - even if it's $0 - to make you feel guilty.

It takes a lot of money to operate religious institutions. Not saying it's a good use of money, but there's often less profit in it than there may seem. Anyway, $300 seems about right for the priest considering I'd charge ~$100 just to sing at a religious ceremony.

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rahl

But the baptism took place after mass, it took less than 5 minutes. I kind of feel that performing a baptism is part of his job.

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The_Jazz

Ah, now I get it. You think they paid him.

They didn't. They paid the church. Big difference. He doesn't keep that money. It goes to the parish, and part of that to the diocese. The priest isn't the one making bank, it's the church.

Also, it's pretty unusual for a Catholic babtism to take 5 minutes and to take place after Mass. Both of my kids were babtised at the local parish, and the ceremony was an hour after Mass ended but included a separate Mass so that the parents didn't have to go twice. But maybe that's just my wife's church.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

SecretMethod70

Nope, that's pretty normal Jazz. I've only seen a baptism performed directly after mass once.

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

rahl

well we showed up at the church about 45 minutes into the mass hoping it would be almost over. After everyone left he performed it. This was back in my hometown, with a priest we've known from childhood. He was actually roomered to be having an affair with a married woman at our church. Whether or not that's true who knows, but I wouldn't put it past him to pocket a few bucks. I belonged to the local country club in my old hometown when I was a teen, and there was a priest who belonged there. Golfed, drank and gambled everyday at 10:00am.

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Pearl Trade

Church/religion is a business. They want your money!

I used to go to a Lutheran Church but ended up leaving because they pretty much forced us to pay. So I left and have since felt more faith in God than when I was actually going to church. Funny shit huh?

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Willravel

It's normal, and yes it goes to the parish, only a tiny bit of which could end up in the priest's paycheck. In less centralized church organizations, sometimes a bit more of it could go to pay a pastor, but generally speaking any money donated or paid for services goes though a church secretary/treasurer and into a big account before being used to pay for things.

My dad's church gets money for weddings. It'd be funny if he pocketed it after the pronouncement, but I'm pretty sure the church district wouldn't be laughing.
ELCA? LCMS? Just curious.

Pearl Trade

LCMS. My belief has always been that you don't need to go to church to have a strong faith. Also, on the topic of baptism, I was baptised when I was a baby. I did however get to see my grandpa baptised in front of a crowd of about 200 people when I was 14, which was pretty cool to be involved in.

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Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
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Willravel

I'm guessing your church was either dangerously low on funds or someone was doing something very unprofessional behind the scenes. My dad is an LCMS pastor and I've had quite a bit of experience with asshats screwing with the church's budget. One thing I know for sure: whatever the problem was, it was local as in at your parish. The LCMS is generally pretty decentralized when it comes to handing finances.

Even though I'm not a believer, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm glad you're happier now.

SecretMethod70

will: I have a hard time seeing you coming from an LCMS family. Then again, so did ono and she still managed to turn out alright. Her family on the other hand...

Regarding finances, they may be decentralized, but ono's childhood church also seems very pushy about donations. Could be because the congregation is mostly a bunch of old white conservatives who are dying off.

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Plan9

*folds hands, cackles*

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Pearl Trade

The church must have had some shady people then because there's no way they're low on funds. They just put in a huge new gym a few years ago and this past year they built an entirely new church to replace the old one. If you had a kid that went to the school (owned by the church), then if you didn't go to church X times a month, your kids tuition would jump up pretty high. That's what someone told me that goes there, at least.

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Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
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Willravel

I can imagine that to an extent. I'm sure like myself Ono went through changes in perception when she was a teen that helped her kind of step away from the suffocating feeling one can get from that kind of philosophy. I was the first liberal in my family (and obviously the first atheist, lol), but I'm not the last. After my parents separated, my mom went Catholic and started moving out of her olde fashioned ways. Finally my dad followed when he started realizing the negative effect political conservatism was having on his church.

It helps to be dating someone with a similar progressive predilection.

snowy

I work for a church and am familiar with its budget/budgeting process. Our church is happy when we end the year ever so slightly in the black/breaking even. Our budget is put together before the fiscal year begins, and reflects 1) various sources of funding that are steady, 2) anticipated donations from congregants (tithes) and 3) anticipated collections corresponding with expected expenses: staffing (clergy, choir director, accompanist(s), office workers, janitorial staff, childcare staff, additional lay ministry workers, etc), capital expenses, ministry expenses, and more. The church is also expected to contribute to mission work.

Sometimes, at the end of the year, the economic picture looks bleak, and the church will send out a request for donations to its congregants. However, the annual church conference and Consecration Sunday happen around this time so people generally aren't surprised by these letters; at my church, Consecration Sunday is an event where the church thanks congregants for their tithes, and the letters serve as a reminder to those who have not yet sent in their tithe. Tithing is really really important to keep a church running. We could not offer the ministry that we do if we did not have the support of our congregation and its tithes.

Also, having seen what the clergy at my church are paid, I think they are incredibly underpaid for the level of education they possess and for how much work they put into the job. Our assistant pastor, who holds a Master's degree, makes less than a first-year teacher in this state with a Bachelor's degree. This pastor also puts endless hours of work into the ministry, and when it comes down to it, probably makes less than minimum wage for the hours put in.

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spindles

I know this is slightly offtopic, but I just don't understand people who don't go to church getting the kids baptised/christened. I've talked to the local minister about it, as my kids attend his church, but I'm an atheist and (to me) it is wrong to stand up and profess what you do in such a ceremony if you don't believe it. Hardly seems very christian to me.

My view on this has changed, given I am a god-parent, but if someone asked me now, I'd say no.

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SecretMethod70

For a lot of people, while they don't actively participate in their faith it may still be something they relate to on a cultural level. Most of these ceremonies were rooted in culture before metaphysical belief anyway.

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spindles

I understand why it happens, but to get up and sprout "I believe in God and Jesus etc, and I reject Satan..." but otherwise not having any church interaction seems a little wrong to me.

'Because we have always done it' is hardly a compelling reason to keep doing it.

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SecretMethod70

Well are you talking about people who don't believe those things, or people who simply never go to church but haven't stopped believing in those things? I think most people who are going to still have their kids baptized fall into the second category. Maybe they don't take their religion as seriously as their church says they should, but when it comes down to it most of them aren't lying when they say they believe in God, Jesus, etc.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Pearl Trade

To me, you don't have to go to church to be a good Christian. Most Catholics will tell you otherwise, but to me, it's just not that important.

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Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

The_Jazz

I'm responding to this one on purpose, BTW.

Personally, I don't see it as being a big deal. I refer to myself as a disinterested agnostic (mainly because I simply don't care about religion or spirituality), but I'm married to a practicing Catholic who used to work for the Church (which is how and why I know as much as I do - coupled with my natural curiosity about the inner workings of stuff) and I'm god-parent to a couple of kids.

Babtising our kids was my wife's decision and one that was discussed well before they were conceived. When we were about to get married, I told the priest (who was under the impression that I was a Presbyterian, a notion I didn't exactly correct for him) that I had agreed to babtise any children in the Catholic Church in return for them being raised Cubs fans (cue predictable response from guccilvr), and there's a grain of truth in that joke.

The parents of one of my godsons didn't care about my lack of religion. The others were more concerned if it would offend me if they asked (obviously it didn't). There's no real duties involved with being a godparent of a modern day Protestant (and both the kids are Protestant), so it's really more about doing something nice for a friend and acknowledging a relationship for me. That said, I'm certainly not in the business of disabusing kids from religious messages from their parents, so they usually get religious-themed presents from me at appropriate holidays (one is getting the Playskool Noah's Ark from me next month).

I don't have a problem professing something I don't necessarily believe in for form's sake to make my wife or a friend happy. The ceremonies aren't about me at all - I'm simply window dressing at these things, and the last thing that I'd want to do is make a stink of it.

One thing that has confused me for at least 20 years, though, is why people make such a fuss about religion in the first place. Who cares what someone else believes or doesn't? Polite people rarely discuss it anyway, and it all seems like an overblown mess to me. But whatever, not anything that I lie at awake at night pondering.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

rahl

Well, I used to be a practicing catholic when I was in school. I had no choice I went to catholic school for 12 years. Now I am agnostic. I don't claim to be atheist because I'm not arrogant enough to proclaim I know for certain there is no God. I can't know that, and honestly neither can anyone else. I think it is likely there is no god but I can't know for sure. The only reason I participated in the baptism is because the parents of this baby are my absolute best friends in the world and they asked me to. Whether the child grows up to participate in the church is his business, and choice.

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Plan9

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Halx

Religion is funny/tragic.

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snowy

It TOTALLY is. We have one at work. It plays classical music and makes neat animal sounds.

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The_Jazz

Sorry, already bought it in a post-Christmas sale. We have that one at home, though. The boys love to play with it, albeit in different ways.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

spindles

I'm somewhat glad my wife is a protestant. There certainly is not the pressure for infant baptism that I recall from my upbringing in a catholic house. Having had the baptism discussion with her minister, he understand my position that I can't very well stand up in front of people and voice my beliefs for something I clearly don't believe.

In the true sense of the ceremony, god parents ARE important - they are pledging to help raise the child as a Christian. I can't do that - I'm pretty upfront about my non-belief, so there is little chance I'll be asked, though my wife is god-mother for a couple of different children.

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SecretMethod70

I wouldn't paint protestantism with such a broad brush. For every denomination that is less demanding, you've got another that is much more demanding. Having been raised Catholic, I've never felt pressured - or even been approached - to go back to church since I stopped going years ago. On the other hand, I know of protestants who act like not going to church is a sin much more than Catholics do. Begging and pleading, and coming up with all sorts of tricks to try and get you into church, as if some miracle will happen once you enter the building and you'll turn into a devout Christian once again. The same goes for infant baptism, etc. My nieces and nephews are not baptized and my Catholic family doesn't really put any pressure on my brothers to do so, but ono's LCMS family might die from shock if/when their grandkids don't get baptized.

I no longer hold any belief, but I do find religion interesting on a sociological level. My only point is that for all the bad rap that the Catholic Church gets - and deserves - there are plenty of protestant denominations that are equally bad and sometimes worse (and sometimes better).

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

spindles

That is correct - my view is skewed mostly by my own (limited) experiences.

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onodrim

I am the godmother for my niece and I am an atheist. My family doesn't know that, so to them I'm sure they still see my position in a religious light, but I obviously don't. I think of it more in terms of being there for her no matter what and doing my best to see that she grows up to be a good person, regardless of religion.

As for the money issue, all churches are going to ask for money for services, and some will be reasonable about it and some will be unreasonable. *shrug* My own experience in the Lutheran church (LCMS) is that they are *very* concerned about what you give; you have personal offering envelopes that they can track, you sign in that you were at the service so they can compare how often you go to how often you give, and they frequently have "special" donations for other organization *along* with the normal offering. Just one of many reasons why I'm not surprised the attendance there is extremely low these days.

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"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides"
-Carl Sagan

The_Jazz

See that's where I start to think that either I'm taking crazy pills or that everyone else is and that I've just somehow kicked the habit. "In the true sense", sure. I get it. But in reality, what you're doing is acknowledging a relationship. That's why I got married in a church and kept my mouth shut about certain things - my wife wanted it and what I believed or didn't believe really took the back seat (in a VERY long bus) to making her happy.

At least in my crazy/noncrazy world, being a godparent has no real life religious implications beyond my hour or so in a church. I can suck that up to make my friends happy and to realize the honor they've bestowed on me. It's a kid that I now consider family and that I go out of my way to interact with where I might not have otherwise.

Centuries ago being a godparent meant instructing the kid in the teaching of Christianity. That's so 13th Century, though, so I don't personally have a problem participating in an old ritual that ceases to have any real implications in my life once it's over (beyond me making a point to know and have fun with the kid, that is).

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

spindles

I can (and am) involved in the lives of my friend's children - I don't need to go through a religious ceremony to do that. I see *my* involvement in such a ceremony as hypocrisy. I know my wife takes her god parenthood seriously, in a religious sense.

I can see the point that non-church goers do get their children christened and (in this case) the after ceremony implications are small. Even so, I'm on my high horse and I'm not coming down

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The_Jazz

Crazy pills, I tells ya!




Can I interest you in the latest issue of The Watchtower? I'd like to come inside and tell you about the teachings of..... [slam]

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

snowy

My godparents are my parents' best family friends. I don't know that they've ever tried to offer me any kind of religious instruction, but they have offered me lifetimes of great advice and guidance. Ultimately, I am very thankful for the bond we have--and I think that's what's at the heart of the godparent thing; providing the child with an additional supportive, encouraging adult in their lives.

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spindles

It's really sunny in Oz - maybe I've had too much sun...

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Pearl Trade

Like Snowy, my godparents are my parent's friends. My dad's to be exact. They've never really done much for me in the way of teaching and preaching, but they lived hundreds of miles away when I was growing up. It was more or less a title for them that didn't really mean much to anybody involved.

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Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

SecretMethod70

Same here. Though it has been quite awhile since I've seen my godfather, busy lives and all. I saw them frequently as a child though, and that's what counts more when it comes to a role like godparent.

Maybe we should think of a secular term/ceremony for godparentage.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Merlocke

Best religious advice I ever got came from my Grandpa. Who is Catholic, but doesn't particularly enjoy going to church.

"When I need to talk to God, I go pray outside so it gets directly to him - no middlemen in between. What do I need to pray inside a church for?"

Gotta love the directness in his point.

I can't remember where I found the quote, but it's served me well.

"I have no problem with God. It's his Fan Club that I can't stand".

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Ourcrazymodern?

Money is a religion
but it makes the means to pay for one
and pays itself back again.

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