Why so many handicapped parking places??
 

I wondered again, for about the umpteenth time. A couple of weeks ago, I walked through cold freezing drizzle and wind through about an acre's worth of blue sign "reserved for handicapped only" parking places to get to the door of Sam's Club.
Let me rephrase that: couple of weeks ago, I walked through cold freezing drizzle, sleet, rain,and wind through about an acre's worth of COMPLETELY EMPTY blue sign "reserved for handicapped only" parking places to get to the door of Sam's Club. Forty seven of them,:shakehead: (and one for the Employee of the Month:))
Why are there so many of these specially reserved spaces, obviously a great many more than are actually needed? Is the Federal Government involved, perhaps?

Lindy

Huh, that's funny.

Every time the two people I know (who have the right to park in said spaces) go out, they're often packed.

Let's assume that not all parking lots are laid out like Big Box stores and that many places have 2 or 4 spaces.

I like to blame all those jerkfaces... ya know, the ones missing limbs who have to wheel themselves around.

Duh, the federal government is involved. In 1990, the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed into law by George H.W. Bush. Here is the specific section of the ADA that deals with parking: ADA Accessibility Guidelines

ADA dictates that for every given number of parking spaces (15 I think?), they must have 1 that is disability accessible. With a place like Sam's Club- you do the math.

At the Publix I shop at, they have regular spaces closer to the store, on the same row, than the handicapped ones. Not many, but they're there. I guess it's due to the amount of empty space around the actual parking space, that the patron will have to maneuver their chair or what not.

And yeah, I park in those spaces. I'm not breaking any laws.

According to snowy's chart, either that's a really, really big Sam's Club, they've gone way over the prescribed amount, or you've miscounted. 47 accessible spots would suggest a lot with 3700 spots altogether. That's a lot of parking.

I don't mind walking, personally. Then again, I'm one of those crazy people who says that walking to the corner store (or even the grocery store) isn't a big deal.

What does piss me off is when people who have no need or right park in those spaces. If you've got two functioning legs, I can guarantee that walking an extra 20 feet won't kill you.

Similar happens at the Walmart I shop at. One person will sit in the driver's seat while parked in the handicapped spot waiting, while Shoquanda runs in for hair grease. That's bullshit. Security needs to beef up on that.

seems like most parking lots never hit capacity, cept maybe on black fridays. I think a lot of ablebodied people get those damned handicap passes too just for completely unrelated handicaps.

Oh well I'm missing half my vision in one eye! gimmie a pass! puh-lease bitch.

Nice.

It's not meant to offend anyone. No need to play the sensitive card. It's the truth. Folks sit there in their Navigators with the base blaring as if they have special permission to use the space. It's bullshit, REGARDLESS of their color.

If you've ever been to Atlanta, I'm certain you'd have a clearer understanding of what I'm referring to.

I can hardly see a one word response as the playing of a card or an admission of sensitivity. However, those are a lot of words you've used in response.

Blah.

You really didn't need to say much more lol.

I could have said 'Billy Sue ran in for chew' or 'Juan ran in for jalapenos.' It doesn't matter. I've lived in Atlanta for 14 years. And no matter what race you are, rude is rude. Unless you're handicapped, you don't get preferential treatment to park in handicapped spaces.

You mean racism?

Yeah. I hate black people who aren't handicapped, who park in handicapped places. I'm such a racist.

:rolleyes:

Shoquanda's a racist term now?

Where does it end?
_______________

EDIT: Figured I should say something on topic...

Handicap spaces are against the laws of natural selection. Do away with them.

That's funny. "Laws of natural selection" would have probably done away with you as well, right? I mean... be honest.

I've found that people missing limbs are often more worthy of life than those who've got all their parts and an empty skull.

Perhaps I'm just a fan of the words you chose or your apparent knowledge on Wal-Mart parking lots across Atlanta. You're the one that went there - why do you think that is?

I don't know but if you ever call me a baklava-eating, Ouzo-sucking, thick-haired Theocles because I'm Greek, I'm pretty sure I won't be offended.

Baklava is tasty.

The narrative of racism here is odd. I read the comment as perhaps typecasting and perhaps in poor taste, but not explicitly racist.

The stereotype I'm familiar with is that rednecks shop at Wal-mart.

It's not a puzzle, MS. Thugs line up the curb at Wally World. When the curb's full, they take up the handicapped spaces when they're not disabled. Plain and simple. Nothing to read into.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------

Baklava is delicious when made properly. I had some baklava cheesecake last week. Something amazing that I've never had in my life!

I just hate 'racism' bullshit and anyone who claims they're a 'minority.' Atlanta has no minorities. We're a fucking melting pot of colors, religions and genders / transgenders for Christ's sake.

And for the record, I hate everyone equally :p.

If the laws of natural selection were in place for us human beings, you, me, and the handicap folk would probably be a lot stronger for it.

Well, that or dead...

Win, win it seems.

People will see racism when they want to see racism.

Had wooÐs made a redneck joke, nobody would even bat an eyelash because it's cool to tell redneck jokes. Mention a name with a convention common to the black women and we have a 14-post discussion on the finer merits of natural selection and, well, racism.

Brilliant.

And people will see accusations of racism when they want to see accusations of racism. Manic replied with one word, "nice." That that was immediately understood or assumed to be an accusation of racism tells me more about the passage he quoted than anything else.

Actually, the natural selection bit was my sarcastic fault...

Sorry to add to the derailing.

My comment was regarding Atlanta in general, not an opinionated Person of WalMart. I see how it derailed things nicely. Sorry.

Deres racial tension in da Souf. Didn't spend much time in Georjha, but I used to have some propertuh in Souf Cackalackey.

...

The choice of the example used and the way it was framed isn't racist, merely a suggestion of some type of pigment-related animosity.

...

I think a lot of people make accusations about our buddy Skafe because he's such a goofy cracker and I'm black. I think that's unfair.

You know, accusations of racism aside (and I suggest dropping the whole deal, lest we ruin the thread), I think the problem in the OP is an issue of culture and expectations.

In places such as France, say, they don't mind walking for as much as 30 minutes to get where they're going. Walking the length of a parking lot (even if it were 50 or 100 spaces) isn't a big deal. I'm guessing it didn't take you more than 2 or 3 minutes to get to the store.

How long do you think it takes some handicapped people to set themselves up getting in and out of their vehicles?

The problem? You had to say it.

Dippin and Plan9 have said it nicely enough but just so that we're clear, I'm really not interested in assuming or accusing you of being a racist. I am much more interested in determining why chose to interpret my posts as you did, figuring what contributed to such an understanding and making clear that your hasty interpretation not only invalidates your argument that it's others who see racism where it isn't, but also says much more about yourself than you probably intended to.

On the whole, I'm not a big fan of stereotypes but I can draw a pretty clear distinction between them and racism.

Who's made the claim you're arguing against? Other than yourself, who's contributed such energy to this discussion?

All in all, there's some pretty interesting stuff lying underneath the surface that I believe to be worthy of discussion. It may not be appropriate to have it out in this thread but we'll never arrive at a clear enough understanding of where we're all coming from if we're too busy attempting to make clear what we're not saying and preemptively getting all defensive and butthurt.

:hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

I can understand handicapped parking spots available for those who need them. My question are how many are too many or too few for the area.

A little strip mall not far from my place has about 35 parking spots with one for handicapped parking. The strip mall has a store for people to get wheelchairs and other supplies for those who need them. ???

The mall a little further has a grocery store. The first 5 spots of every row (double sided), of about 10 rows has handicapped parking. The rows have about 50 cars each(25 bumper to bumper).

So out of 500 cars total in the lot, 50 are dedicated to handicapped parking. ????

I have been shopping at this mall for years and can count on 2 hands how many times I have seen anyone, handicapped or not using those spaces.

Go figure.

Careful with that. My friend had wacky knee tendons. Each step was Russian Roulette; either she was walking fine, or she couldn't walk. She had HP plates, and deserved them. You might have seen her and thought that she didn't.

I assume if you have the HP plates or tags, you have a reason to have them.

I have two functioning legs, except one functions worse than the other. Walking 6 feet was impossible and now, 6 months later, it's painful. My tag runs out in a week. :(
If you are referring to the handicapped spaces and you are not tagged, yes you are, not to mention you are being rude. Here in NJ, the fine is minimum $100. While the fines might be regional, the use of specifically marked spaces without the appropriate tags WILL get you a ticket anywhere in the US. And seeing people do that really pisses me off.
Even with my tag, I won't park in them if I am not in dire pain.

I would argue that in both these cases the legs in question aren't wholly functional.

Look, I'm not saying it's wheelchair or bust, and I'm not unsympathetic. I'm well aware that the reason for having the tags may not be readily apparent. If you've got the tags, my assumption is going to be that it's because you need them.

But let's be honest here -- a lot of people have a major sense of entitlement. I've seen people parking in accessible spots without tags, because 'nobody was using it' or whatever bullshit reason they justify with. It's laziness, pure and simple. And for those people I have absolutely no patience whatsoever.

For those without a plate/hang tag... you can always remove the valve stems of their tires while they're off in the store.

Or you can just call the non-emergency line of the local law enforcement agency. I keep it in my cell phone, and yes, I do use it. The police here are more than happy to dispatch someone to deal with this.

Someone close to me has severe full-skeletal rheumatoid arthritis. She has had a metal plate inserted and then removed from her spine, both knees replaced, problems with her rotator cuff (that has progressed to a frozen shoulder), and will likely need to have her ankle fused. She actively manages agonizing chronic pain 24/7.

She's still mobile, thank god, especially since the majority of these problems started in her 40s and she has been dealing with them for around 20 years.

The thought of her not being able to get a handicapped spot because someone was ignorant and lazy enough to unduly park their ass there disgusts me just a wee bit. :expressionless:

Turns out the police outside the megalopolis of DC have better things to do. And flat tires are far more satisfying.

I have one otherwise ablebodied mid-20's friend who has to take large injections every day to combat the pain from his crippling knee arthritis who rocks a handycap hang tag.

Also, my former boss has had a total of 13 knee surgeries. They do not fix the problem, they just reset the clock like a goddamn oil change and give him another 3000 miles, or whatever. He walks fine, until his tendons fail. Conserving steps is a priority. He also has a tag.

Finally, I don't assume everyone who needs to be close to the store has a hang tag. This is something I learned from my Dad. Much to the annoyance of my wife, I don't even play the parking spot game, I just park in the outfield where spots are plentiful and walk in, leaving the 'good' spots for people who need them more than I.

Just wanted to point out that, while some people look able bodied, they probably need those places. They don't hand out handicap signs very easily. My dad for instance, looks young for his age (he looks 40 but he's actually 66), has arthritis, flat feet, and bone spurs (the worse, tons of pain.) So he looks semi young and able but the parking spaces really do make a difference for him throughout the day.

I get your point, but many forms of disability are not visible - you can have two legs but still not be able to walk far.

I learned it from my grandpa.

My maternal grandfather was crippled at a young age, and adamantly refused to believe he was handicapped. He never got a handicapped tag, though he could have easily qualified for permanent plates.

While I have no beef with the handicapped spaces, what really pisses me off is the Maternity spaces, which in many cases are closer to the store/mall/Wallmart/what-have-you than the handicapped spaces. And I will park in those without remorse. Why should I give up a close parking spot so some pregnant woman doesn't have to walk an extra 20 feet to the mall which she is going to wander around in all day?

My favorite around here is someone that drives a HUGE Dodge Ram 350 with a lift kit, handle bar to lift yourself UP to the bottom rail that is sitting 3 feet above the ground, and have a handicapped tag. I've watched people JUMP out of their trucks and have a tag hanging on their rear view. Now, if my knees/legs/ankles/whatever didn't work, I sure as hell wouldn't drive a truck that you had to climb a ladder to get to the front seat.

I knew two kids in college that stole handicap hanging tags to use when there wasn't spots on campus to park. They got away with it for years. One actually used it to park at a half-marathon event so he wouldn't have to walk as far back to his car after it was over.

Point: A lot people need them. Some of people abuse it. If my stubby hobbit legs ever fail me, I'll be glad they are there.

Yeah, fuck pregnant women and their...um...wandering!

*facepalm*

You really can't think of a potential use for these?

Don't understand? Then you haven't had a pregnant wife. HAVE had a pregnant wife, and she popped a baby out during the final stretch of a marathon because she's just that hardcore? Good for her, for every one of her, there are ten women who for months can only get the energy up to get out of bed for half an hour a day.

If I watched anyone male, or not obviously pregnant (you included) park in one of these spots, I'd be quite tempted to plan9 your tires for being such a self-centered douchebag.

Great. I'm a verb.

To compare pregnancy to being disabled is ridiculous and thoughtless. How many disabled people made a conscious choice to become disabled? Any OB/GYN will tell you that exercise is an important part of a healthy pregnancy.

I started a thread about maternity spaces about 7 years ago. A grocery store I used to frequent put up signs; they came down within a couple months. Even pregnant women were complaining they didn't want to be patronized for their choices. Not all of them, of course.

The worst offenders are the people who have THE Fake Handicap TAGS.

I see it often around Youngstown, Ohio and it's just shameless. I've been known to say some comment to someone who pulls it outta their glove box, looks around for a cop or witness and parks in a space and then walks (in perfect normal health) 10 feet into a busy store. Often they are folks in very nice cars and look like they could use the extra "excercise" IMHO.

Yep, I'll probably get shot around here one day. Whatever.

It's so wrong. More lazy sleezeballs, less spaces for those who are handicapped.

You are many things plan9, many many things...

My favourite thing to do at busy stores, other than get the hell out of there that is, is when I follow cars in from the main road. I head straight for the back of the lot with all the open spots, while the other car makes a B-line for the front row. I get out of my car and walk aaaalllllllllll the way to the store, turn around and see the car I followed in still circling around trying to find a space close enough.

Then because I backed into my spot, I just hop in and take off. And there are no cars trying to drive anywhere near me at the time because apparently I park too far away with the "un-cool kids". Ahhh shopping.

I liked your old name better for verbage (yeah grammar nazis, I said it). Cromp'd.

... like... I cromp'd (humped the tailpipe) that sweet looking car over there. It burned like cheap getto passion.

Amen!
My friend with a non-visible handicap is often given crap for her use of these parking spaces. With her type of epilepsy, the seizures are often unpredictable and occur many times a day. She may be fine when she walks in the door to the store, but when something sets her off on a seizure, she requires significant assistance to leave the building, much less return to the handicap parking space. It pisses me off when I hear, yet again, that someone has given her flack on her way into a store.

People give her flack?
That takes as much nerve as parking there without tags.
Being the seasoned smartass that I am, my quick answer to those ignoramuses (ignorami?) would be, "thank your god your only handicap is rudeness. Mine could have you dialing 911 at any given moment."

Wow! I started this thread Saturday, left the computer for a couple of days, and look what happened. Now, as the original poster, I've got lots of things to comment about.
First of all, nowhere in my OP did I suggest that we should eliminate specially privileged parking for the handicapped. Nowhere. I merely suggested that perhaps the need (I don't deny the need) could be satisfied with a smaller number of spaces.
I did not suggest that drivers should park in handicapped spaces if they are not so entitled, and I do not do so myself. Otherwise, I would just have just appropriated one of the blue tagged spaces and would have had no problem or complaint.


Plan9 your two friends are safe from me, and I hope my four valvestems are safe from you.:shakehead:
And I don't blame jerkfaces. (whatever they are) The blame for the excess probably lies with some bureaucrat or lawyer (working strictly in the public interest, of course.)


Thanks, Percy for actually addressing the question in the original post! You're a hero! I do somewhat resent being made into some kind of bad guy just for asking the question. I see absolutely no value in making customers park a block from the door when there are only ten cars in the lot. where is the value in this?? This serves no one well. Are we supposed to preserve a bunch of unused spaces as some kind of "shrine" to the handicapped??

Ah, the rational vigilante strikes again!

Lindy

just so that you know, other people use different skins and red is not visible on many of them. if they can't read it, they will just scroll right past it.

As far as how many, depending on the state determines the minimum amount, but really most of the time it's at the discretion of the land owner to figure out how many to designate for them. That is the way that I understand it for many municipalities across NY, CA, and NV.

Federal ADA Guidelines:

damn, i love the way you think...

I haven't seen them at malls, usually stores, but if they'd been there when I was carrying my twins, I'd have used them. Wander? Try walk, sit, walk, lean, walk, sit, walk, cry.....
Try this just for kicks: Get a watermelon, about 9-10 lbs, strap it to your hips. For real fun, get about 4 lbs of apples, split them into two bags and strap them around your neck so that they hang just above the watermelon.
Now, get into your car. Don't forget to buckle up!
Drive to said mall.
Park at the middle of the lot.
Start walking.

This was the gem for me. How long, indeed?

You aren't owed a close spot, no matter how many handicapped spots there are.

Also, red is one thing, bold and red is another, and bold, red and embiggened is another thing all together. No need to think yourself special simply because we didn't answer the question to your satisfaction.

This made me hurt ... it made me really hurt inside. I am getting a vasectomy tomorrow morning.

This also drove me COMPLETELY nuts!! No! I refuse the invention of new words. No more "verbiage/verbage". I say NO! No I say!!

My favorite was "shrine to the handicapped."

Nifty. Let's cut off one of Lindy's legs.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

A different color is useful when responding to several quotes in the same post. It helps distinguish the response from the quote.:) I choose red because it shows up well in all the different "skins" that I've used on TFP. You can change skin/appearance of TFP in the box at the extreme lower left corner of the page.:)
Jinn, you missed the point of the embiggening, which was not that I was special. The point, and reason for the embiggening, (sorry Xerxys, I kind of like the word) was to draw attention to percy's post, which was actually ON TOPIC after many of the others went off hither, thither, and yon. I'm certainly not the only one on this forum that is annoyed by the idea of the wandering thread. And while I will grant that the red was perhaps overly embiggened, (I'll edit to tone it down a notch) there was no bold of any size or color anywhere in my post. My "satisfaction" with the answers had nothing to do with it. I hardly think that it is unreasonable to ask that posters stay reasonably close to the topic of the thread.:) Isn't that why we give a title to the thread in the first place?

Oh, please. Don't cut off one of my legs for expressing my opinion. I'm only 5' 2" and can't stand to lose any height.

You have my permission to just go ahead and vandalize my valvestems if you ever find my vehicle in a handicapped space.:paranoid: Which you won't.

I've read a lot of your posts, Plan9, and in most of them (smart assery aside) you are pretty rational. I also notice that you seldom refrain from cleverly making light of someone else's sacred cow. There must be something about the handicapped that throws rationality out the window for you.:sad:

I fail to see in my OP or my comments any attack on the handicapped. My OP addressed the seemingly irrational allocation of a scarce resource. My college major, graduate studies, and general nerdiness, make me notice things like that. Why have twenty blue signs when two ( or four, or six, or ten) would be sufficient. I never said we should do away with handicapped spaces. I merely asked why we had to have so many of them. And I certainly never condoned taking a handicapped space to which you are not entitled.


Lindy

Lindy, I was being 100% sarcastic. One of my best friends is missing a leg and I'm tired of how much society shits on them over it. My comments were attempts to poke fun at those in the thread that don't get why people with physical disabilities should have better parking spots. There is a huge amount of injustice in the US for those with prosthetic limbs... just in the insurance angle alone. My personal favorite is that most insurance companies will pay for a goddamn wheelchair instead of paying a percentage for a leg so the person can walk. Quality of life? Fuck it, too expensive. This ties into the parking spot thing in that my friend is using a prosthetic leg that is painful to walk on because they don't want to have to sell their car, get a van, and use a wheelchair to get everywhere. It's pathetic. Some insurance companies even call it a preexisting condition. No, I woke up and it was gone!

I have the utmost respect for those who wake up every day, slide on a plastic leg, and kick more ass than all the dickheads in this thread combined.

That's my rub. I've got nothing but love for those with the stub. This is a good thread... I can better see who's a heartless asshole.

Ya know, aside from my dad.

TheJazz.

...

I'm sure you're good people, Lindy. I just wanted to bit in my bit about the discussion topic in the way that I know best.

Wow, green on green is even worse than red on green, which I also didn't read. Break up your quote boxes by opening and closing quote tags if you want to refer to individual points, like I do here:

Yeah...I'm not changing my skin to read your reply. Sorry.

Discussions wander, that's why they're discussions, and not debates (this reply provided mostly as a further example of quote/unquote breaking.

Ten-Four Plan9. :) The sarcasm part just went over my head. Probably because I'm so short.


Thanks for pointing out an alternate way. I'm trying it with this reply.:)

Didn't mean that you should. The skin/appearance thing was just an FYI for people that (like me) for a long time didn't even know that appearance COULD be changed. I bet that if we had a show of hands that there would be quite a few on this forum that are still using whatever skin appeared the first time they got on TFP. When Cynthetiq mentioned in his post (#52) that red might be hard to read in some skins I checked several of the ones in the lower left corner menu and red seemed to show up fine in all of them. Using Safari Browser 4.0.2 on a MacMini with a Dell monitor. Your mileage may vary.
Indeed, telekinetic. Discussions will wander, and up to a point, that's OK. But they should at least somehow relate to the topic at hand. In this thread, once ShoQuanda ran in to Walmart for hair grease, the thread didn't just go out in left field, it got chased completely out of the ballpark!:shakehead:

Lindy

Spaces
 

Had this rant while looking for a very quick in and out of an electronics shop...result, I drove home and bought it online. But I am always reminded of two things...a Wizard of Id cartoon... Sir Rodney to the stable "One with a limp, the King wants to do some shopping and wants to park in a handicapped zone" and a weird UK prank sow where the Devil guy painted handicapped symbols on every carparking space, then they filmed the response..priceless...! Centres should put a few 10min spots in for those in a hurry... adios

And yes I did get the dose of sarcasm thoughout the thread...healthy

Totally love the parent parking though.
Strollers = Wheelchairs at times as I'm quickly learning where all of the elevators are in my area of town with 2 kids.

Sorry to break up the discussion to answer the question... :)

As the above chart points out, there are requirements. But those 'requirements' are merely 'Guidelines'. The official answer to the question 'How many handicapped spaces are required?' is ....'enough'.

I own quite a few commercial properties and deal with this issue directly. The answer really is, 'enough'. Enough for who? Basically, if anyone ever calls the Federal government and it gets as far as some bureaucrat in charge of such things, they will make the property owner add more handicapped spaces. If you don't, you will be subject to pretty substantial fines which continue until you provide the spaces. That is why you see different amounts of spaces at different establishments. Wal-Mart/Sam's evidently knows their customer base includes a large number of disabled/handicapped customers. In order to provide 'enough' the first time, with no one ever complaining, they provide a large number of spaces.

The owner of the local watering hole in small town USA who knows all his customers by first name probably provides one regular sized space with a blue sign hung haphazardly on a stake. To him this is 'enough'. And until someone complains, it is.

I own a medical office building in a town with an average age of 60. That building has way more spaces, by number and percentage, than my retail building in an area of younger people.

How many? Enough so that no one complains.

^^Good point^^

Those are the federal minimums; actual number required is per local zoning code and land use. As DDDDave pointed out, a medical office complex for seniors will require a higher percentage than a skateboard park.

Same, I'll use the maternity parking spots, they're knocked up not handicapped, as my mother says to me 'when I was pregnant with you, I damn well walked from where ever I could find a spot'. I've had women try to get mouthy about it, and I told them the same thing I typed here, you're knocked up, not handicapped, get over it. If they can wander around a mall for an hour, they can damn well walk an extra hundred or so feet for a parking spot. As for 'Plan9ing tires' because of it, that's great commit a crime because of a maternity spot, is it really worth the charge?

Never will I use a handicapped spot though unless I'm taking my grandmother shopping, as she has a pass from when my grandfather drove.

Why so many? I think the fast answer is that while 47 spots aren't needed for when the lot is half or quarter full or even nearly empty, those spots are almost assuredly packed when all other spots are packed. Plus, the consequences for not having a disabled spot are extremely large to a disabled person, whereas even an extra 500' (yes I know that's a ways!) isn't a big deal.

If I was handicapped I'd sure want enough spaces to go when the store is very busy. Life would be hard enough without having to schedule around when I think there might be enough handicap spots open!