Herbs, Vitamins, & Minerals

[wooÐs]

I'm dabbling. As mentioned in another thread, my doctor took me off of xanax. And I'm looking for a replacement. I picked up Passionflower and Skullcap herbs today. I plan to experiment with each, not necessarily together, to see if anything works. I got about 4 different vitamins as well, which according to what I Googled, work great for anxiety.

So what herbs do you happen to take? And do you notice a difference?

*Yes, I realize how dangerous herbs can be. If at all possible, let's avoid that debate!*

[Baraka_Guru]

Depression and anxiety:

• Quality multivitamin with the Bs at least in the 30s (mg)
• Clean fish oil supplement supplying at least 300mg DHA daily
• Ginkgo biloba, standardized to 24% flavone glycosides and 6% terpene lactones (120 to 180 mg/day in 2-3 doses)
• Vigorous exercise at least 3/week
• Off the damn caffeine
• Forcing myself to go to bed on time

I've used the passionflower with success for flying, but I don't use it otherwise. The above items are good for long-term therapy, whereas the passionflower seems more of a "localized" thing. You won't notice effects immediately. It would take weeks, if not a couple of months.

[wooÐs]

What do you mean 'for flying?'

I got:
- Calcium/Magnesium/D supplement
- Fish oil
- Zinc
- B-50
- Buffered C (no acid - I'm sensitive to it)
- and the aforementioned Passionflower and Skullcap

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by wooÐs

What do you mean 'for flying?'

Air travel. I'm a very nervous flier.

I got:
- Calcium/Magnesium/D supplement

I have this too. I take it at night on an empty stomach. It relaxes your muscles and helps your sleep. I only use it when I'm weight training though.

- Fish oil

Make sure this is a clean source: "molecularly distilled" or wild source that's been checked for mercury.

- Zinc

I wouldn't use this on its own. I rely on a multivitamin. Too much zinc can be detrimental.

- B-50

Bingo.

- Buffered C (no acid - I'm sensitive to it)

I take 1,000 mg/day, mainly due to training, for immune system support. But it also helps reduce cortisol which is bad for stress. It's good to space out the doses throughout the day because vitamin C's half-life is only 30 minutes. I try to use 500mg doses.

[SSJTWIZTA]

what about some other herb.

...you know, THAT herb.

[wooÐs]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I wouldn't use this on its own. I rely on a multivitamin. Too much zinc can be detrimental.

Hm. I didn't read anything about it being dangerous when I Googled this AM. But a couple sites did say it's good for anxiety. Plus I figured they make those zinc lozenges for when you feel like you're getting sick - didn't think anything of it. I'll look into it more.

[snowy]

My doctor recommended vitamin D for mood. She recommended 4000mg a day for 2 weeks and then 2000mg a day thereafter. Most people are D deficient. I've found that it does help. D is fat-soluble, so be sure to take it with food.

[Baraka_Guru]

Zinc isn't quite dangerous; you can technically take quite a bit of it, but it starts to interact with the absorption of other things. (Copper, for example.)

Plus I haven't come across anything that would indicate it having a benefit outside of what you can get in a quality multivitamin. Mine has 20mg, which is plenty I think. People take it for colds because it's good for your immune system.

Originally Posted by snowy

[My doctor] recommended 4000mg a day for 2 weeks and then 2000mg a day thereafter.

Do you know how much that is in IU? I can never figure it out. My multi has 400IU and my cal/mag has 100IU each.

[wooÐs]

I probably should have picked up a multi. Just decided not pass on it for some reason. I'll consider it.

And check yo pm's!

edit - this zinc had 50 mg's. I'll research more before I open it lol.

[Glory's Sun]

P.O.T.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by wooÐs

I probably should have picked up a multi. Just decided not pass on it for some reason. I'll consider it.

Do your research. Pick a good brand. Avoid the cheap synthetic stuff.

this zinc had 50 mg's. I'll research more before I open it lol.

I'm really not sure what the overall benefit would be, especially if you get a multi.

Originally Posted by guccilvr

P.O.T.

Does that come in liquicaps?

[wooÐs]

Originally Posted by http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/wellness_concerns/anxiety/herbs_and_vitamins_for_anxiety.php

Zinc

An essential mineral, which means that the body cannot produce it and it must be replenished daily through nutritional sources. It has been found to promote proper function of the nervous system and induce a state of calm.

That sold me. But I'll still check into it more.

[Baraka_Guru]

Be sure to check your multivitamin. If you get one with anywhere between 15 and 30 mg, it should be more than enough, especially if you eat animal-derived foods.

[blahblah454]

I take B100 complex
Multivitamin
Cal Mag D
Flax Seed Oil (I had absolutely horrible knees before I started taking this, now they are perfect!)

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Do you know how much that is in IU? I can never figure it out. My multi has 400IU and my cal/mag has 100IU each.

I just found out that 400IU = 10 mcg.

Did you mean to say your doctor recommended 4,000IU, then 2,000IU? Because 2,000mg = 2 million mcg, which would put it at 80 million IU....

Originally Posted by blahblah454

Flax Seed Oil (I had absolutely horrible knees before I started taking this, now they are perfect!)

I've been contemplating switching from fish oil to flax, or some plant-based mix.

[robot_parade]

Ok - I realize I'm probably going to come off as a jerk, which I don't mean to, but if I do, I'm sorry. It's your body, and up to you what you decide to take, or not.

That said, herbal 'supplements' are a special pet peeve of mine. Let me explain. First, if a given supplement is effective for a given condition (which is entirely possible - many medicines are derived from natural sources), then it's logical that some combination of chemicals in that supplement cause that effect. So, instead of taking a supplement, which due to a lack of regulation, and the fact that different sources may have different amounts of the chemicals that do have a positive effect, might have anywhere from 'not enough' to 'too much'.

Second, anything that has an effect can have side-effects. It's silly to assume that only pharmaceuticals have side effects. Again, due to lack of regulation, lack of study, and the aforementioned variable dosage, there's very little to tell a consumer what side effects a supplement might have, or what possible interactions there might be.

Finally, taking a supplement, if done in place of taking an actual medication, could be a very bad idea.

A couple of articles to back myself up:

the difference between a drug and a supplement
Is that 'natural' supplement so natural?
And...multivitamins

[Baraka_Guru]

robot_parade, I tend to only take supplements that have had numerous (relevant) studies done on them and are manufactured by reputable companies. Not to mention supplements that are standardized for potency (for example, in the case of ginkgo biloba and fish oil).

Although most supplements aren't regulated like drugs are, there are international third-party organizations that provide testing, certifications for best practices, guidelines for standards, and quality control.

There are risks associated with many things. Some risks are bigger than others. But for many "mainstream" supplements, if you follow the directions on the package, they are generally safe. It's always good to do your research when it comes to concerns regarding interactions with one another and if you're taking drugs at the same time.

Many of these supplements are being recommended by Western doctors now. So you could always consult a GP about them, as one should.

[Daniel_]

Beroca and Hypericum here. Works well for me, but who knows, could all be headology.

[wooÐs]

Originally Posted by robot_parade

Second, anything that has an effect can have side-effects. It's silly to assume that only pharmaceuticals have side effects. Again, due to lack of regulation, lack of study, and the aforementioned variable dosage, there's very little to tell a consumer what side effects a supplement might have, or what possible interactions there might be.

Finally, taking a supplement, if done in place of taking an actual medication, could be a very bad idea.

Water can have negative side effects ffs lol.

I figured all this was common sense by now tho. I mean, I've been aware of this for years and have personally had a horrible reaction to Valerian in conjunction with my daily head meds. Which is why I did my homework this time around. I may be taking a chance with the Skullcap. But Passionflower's not known to have any adverse side effects.

[MSD]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Does that come in liquicaps?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Although most supplements aren't regulated like drugs are, there are international third-party organizations that provide testing, certifications for best practices, guidelines for standards, and quality control.

I'll be happy to see any placebo controlled, double-blind studies done on supplements people are recommended.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by MSD

I'll be happy to see any placebo controlled, double-blind studies done on supplements people are recommended.

Knock yourself out.

Just bear in mind that this isn't the purview of this thread.

[Baraka_Guru]

I came across this interesting story posted on CNN.com via Health.com. It discusses the link between heart disease, depression, and vitamin D deficiency.

According to this information, there's a good chance that most people don't get enough of the D and an increasing number of researchers are suggesting raising the current safe upper limit of 2,000 IU daily, and even governments are considering bumping up the current recommend daily intake of 200 to 600 IU.

Heart patients lacking vitamin D more likely to be depressed
By Denise Mann

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• Heart patients with lack of vitamin D in diet more likely to be depressed, study finds
• Depression also more likely to happen in winter months when sunshine is lacking
• Government may consider increasing vitamin D recommendations for daily intake

(Health.com) -- People with heart disease and similar conditions who don't have enough vitamin D are more likely to be depressed than their counterparts with adequate levels of the "sunshine vitamin," according to a study presented at the annual meeting of the American Heart Association in Orlando. This link seems to be even stronger in the winter.

Vitamin D is called the sunshine vitamin because the human body produces it only when exposed to sunlight -- although it takes just 10 to 15 minutes a day to make an adequate amount. Vitamin D, which helps the bones better absorb calcium, is also added to multivitamins and milk, and occurs naturally in fish.

A second study by the same team of researchers found that people age 50 or older who lack vitamin D are at a higher risk for heart disease and stroke, and are more likely to die earlier than people the same age who get adequate amounts of the vitamin.

At the American Heart Association's annual Scientific Sessions meeting, more than 20,000 cardiologists and other physicians from around the country give presentations on new research and on advances in the diagnosis and treatment of heart disease and stroke.

These studies add to the mounting evidence about the dangers of vitamin D deficiency and may also shed light on the connection between depression and cardiovascular disease (which includes any disease caused by clogged arteries, including heart disease).

Depression and diseases of the arteries -- both have been associated with vitamin D deficiency in the past -- tend to occur together, says Heidi May, Ph.D., an epidemiologist with the Intermountain Medical Center at the University of Utah, in Murray, who participated in both studies.

"It is known that during the last century, the prevalence of depression has increased, and, more recently, that vitamin D deficiency has increased," May says. "It is well-known that depression is associated with cardiovascular disease and events."

This research, she adds, "is trying to elucidate whether vitamin D deficiency is associated with depression and may be contributing to this increase in cardiovascular disease and events."

In the first study, May and her colleagues measured blood levels of vitamin D in 8,680 people age 50 or older who had been diagnosed with heart disease, stroke, or another type of cardiovascular disease. vitamin D levels above 30 nanograms per milliliter of blood (ng/mL) were considered normal, levels between 15 and 30 ng/mL were low, and those 15 ng/mL and below were deemed very low.

Among those with very low levels of vitamin D, 32 percent were depressed, as were 25 percent of the people with low levels, and 21 percent of those with normal levels. This trend was seen even among individuals with no history of depression.

Winter seemed to make the association even more pronounced. Seasonal depression, which typically occurs in winter, may be linked to lack of sunshine.

In the second study, which looked at 27,686 people age 50 or older with no history of cardiovascular disease, May and her colleagues found that, compared to individuals with normal levels of the vitamin, people with very low levels of vitamin D were 77 percent more likely to die, 45 percent more likely to develop heart disease, and 78 percent more likely to have a stroke during the study, which lasted for more than a year. They also had double the risk of heart failure.

These findings didn't surprise Michael F. Holick, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of medicine, physiology, and biophysics at Boston University School of Medicine who has studied the dangers of low vitamin D levels for years.

"It is estimated that many of the genes that regulate cardiovascular health are directly or indirectly regulated by vitamin D," says Holick, author of the forthcoming book The Vitamin D Solution. "We know that vitamin D regulates blood pressure, and it is very important for maintaining good heart health."

Vitamin D is also essential to the brain, which contains receptors for the vitamin, says Holick. "The new research is confirming previous observations that vitamin D deficiency increases the risk of depression," he explains.

In addition to heart disease and depression, vitamin D deficiency has been linked to a host of chronic diseases, including some types of cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, schizophrenia, and some autoimmune disorders.

Although further research is needed to confirm that a shortage of vitamin D in fact links depression to heart disease and stroke, May says that more aggressive monitoring of vitamin D levels could help improve disease outcomes in the meantime.

"Even a moderate deficiency of vitamin D is associated with cardiovascular disease and death; therefore, screening and treatment is very important," says May. "Since both are simple and relatively inexpensive, prevention of vitamin D deficiency should be cost-effective and may ultimately be able to save more lives."

Likewise, she adds, "patients with depression may need to be more aggressively screened and treated for vitamin D deficiency since they are at higher risk for cardiovascular events."

These studies come as the Institute of Medicine (IOM), an independent organization that advises the U.S. government on health and medical matters, is considering new recommendations for vitamin D intake. Currently, the dietary reference intake for vitamin D is 200 international units per day (IU/day) for adults ages 14 to 50, 400 IU/day for adults 50 to 71, and 600 IU/day for those older than 71.

Holick says the IOM should raise the limit on the amount of vitamin D currently deemed safe, or tolerable, which now stands at 2,000 IU/day for adults.

"If we raise it, more food can be fortified with vitamin D and fortified at a higher level," he says. "We think [2,000 IU/day] is the baseline of what we need to take, not the upper safe limit."

Holick advocates raising the daily limit to 10,000 IU. Many researchers agree and have suggested that the toxic level of vitamin D is closer to 10,000 IU/day.

Unlike May, however, Holick does not think that screening for vitamin D deficiency is necessary.

"We should all be taking supplements of vitamin D," he says. "There's no downside to increasing vitamin D intake, and if it does turn out that there is a benefit, you're ahead of the game."

Heart patients lacking vitamin D more likely to be depressed - CNN.com

[wooÐs]

I knew about D and seasonal depression, but wasn't aware of the link with heart disease patients. My Father recently had open heart surgery and he was definitely depressed for weeks afterwards, but from what I understood, it's common. I wonder if it may have been due to being cooped up indoors possibly?

[Baraka_Guru]

I don't know. They're still figuring this out somewhat.

All I know is that I live in Canada and spend more than 99% of my time indoors. And when I do go out in the sun, I cover up with hats/clothes and/or sunscreen...moley as I am, it is to protect myself....but that probably means I'm vitamin D deficient if this data continues on the course it's going.

[wooÐs]

Would the 15 minutes really make a difference on you? I know some people who are super sensitive to the sun that way.

[Baraka_Guru]

I'm not sensitive to the sun. I'm just a part of that set who's paranoid about skin cancer.

The 15 minutes/day would probably be fine, except it's said that at this time of year in places such as Canada the sun isn't strong enough. It isn't strong enough for more than half the year. Plus the 15 minutes thing only applies if you have your arms and legs uncovered. I'm not doing that when I can see my breath.

The other thing too is smog. I live in the "Big Smoke."

[wooÐs]

oic

Supplements to the rescue then. lol

[Baraka_Guru]

Yeah, every so often, I look at the supplements I take and think, "This isn't what nature intended."

BUT: I'm not living how nature intended. I live in a big pollution/smog-riddled city, I use artificial lighting, I live most of my time in an artificially controlled indoor environment, I have little idea where my food comes from or how it was grown.... etc.

What's one more artificial aspect added to the mix if it is beneficial to what is ideal? If it corrects what is missing from the mix due to the detrimental effects of the other things?

I'm now currently taking a vitamin D supplement, though I have stopped using ginkgo biloba.

[wooÐs]

Still trying to weigh out this whole skullcap deal. I'm definitely seeing a difference. But at the same time, I've had changes in head meds too so I don't know where this positivity is coming from. I'm self medicating, if you will. Not always a good thing, but no destructive side effects yet lol.

[Baraka_Guru]

Well, with things such as skullcap, I tend to only use it for situational things. I haven't used skullcap, but as I mentioned above, I do use passionflower for flying.

I'm not sure about taking it regularly though. When it comes to anxiety/relaxation remedies, I normally use it as needed and reach for passionflower, chamomile, hops, valerian, etc. Normally in tea. But there's something relaxing in having the tea in itself though.

[wooÐs]

So would you say Passionflower is fast acting? Or do you take it weeks in advance before you fly? I can't seem to find that info out. Same regarding skullcap. Ideally, I'm hoping I can just take them as needed instead of part of a daily regimen. But according to the directions, it looks like I do need to take them regularly.

[Baraka_Guru]

Passionflower is fast acting in the same way I've found chamomile et al. In the past, I've taken passionflower capsules and sipped on chamonmile tea from Tim Hortons while waiting to board the plane, and to great effect I might add.

It wears off fairly quickly too (a few hours maybe), I'm assuming when it metabolizes. So it's not like a long-term therapeutic thing like ginseng or gingko it, which may take weeks for them to kick in and a while to wear off when you stop.

They're basically sedatives.

[wooÐs]

Ok - yeah, I'm after anxiety killers. It's been an issue for quite some time.

I'll try out the passionflower next time I'm wound up. And I do drink Yogi Chamomile tea from time to time (it's very good.) I've mainly focused on the skullcap for the past week'ish.

Thanks for the info! Don't be surprised if I hit you up again on something related in the future. You seem to know your stuff when it comes to supplements and such.