Shooting at Fort Hood?
 

I just saw Obama's address regarding this.

Seems like there aren't many details out yet.. 12 dead, 31 wounded, at least one shooter dead. One of my friends is currently at Fort Hood preparing for deployment, and I'm hoping he's okay.

Actually, he just responded to my text message.. and he's okay. Everyone's on lockdown.

This is terrifying, but perhaps not totally out of the blue.

I am glad he is ok, remind him not to get into trouble for breaking protocol from using his cell phone while there is a base-wide lock-down


Not picking an argument with you P.P.

I don't get this "perhaps not totally out of the blue" statement.
Care to explain OR is it best for you NOT to go there?

As an active member on the most deployed base in Army's history, Fort Hood is second behind us, I been sitting and listening and watching how the media
is reporting the story like if they know exactly what is going on and sounding so professional, which is ALL bullshit. They have NO clue whats going on in Fort Hood, and I been hearing from when the story broke how they had no info at first, to having retired generals who used to command the post comment while they are fishing and turning almost every word he said into far-fetched sound bites, and watching them scramble to get recently redployed soldiers to speak to bolster the story like they are standing RIGHT in Texas.

2 hours later, I watched CNN twist the damded story 3X and STILL haven't gotten it right.
AND...
The Army hasn't made an official statement on it yet, so DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR.

Why not?

Because IF you DO, better have your FACTS in order.

If nothing else, friends in the Army have told me that PTSD screening and psych evaluations after tours of duty are a joke. With active duty and veteran suicide rates up, it's not all that surprising that other forms of untreated or improperly treated mental illness would also rise.

OK then, what happened?

I can agree with you on one thing: CNN is giving me nothing. The only thing I trust from my TeeVee is the death toll.

Okay, I'll explain. Many members of our military have already been deployed. Many of them have PTSD, not just from deployments, and many of them do not get (or don't pursue) the psychological care they need.

I have dated one member of the military with PTSD. He once punched me in the face for touching him in his sleep. He can't sleep (nor feel comfortable in general) without something pressed tightly against his abdomen. Yet he won't pursue psychological treatment for his condition, because there are many people "worse" than him. I'm interested to find out whether this shooter (or shooters) were in the category he would consider "worse" than him in terms of PTSD, or perhaps this was a calculated assault on comrades for reasons unknown.

What I do know is that background checks keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill for a reason. Perhaps this was a case in which that "check' failed, and it's potentially due to the military's approach toward PTSD and mental illness in general.

---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

You said it much better and more succinctly than me, MSD. Thanks.

To let you know, the Army has a policy it has been enforcing for those who come back from deployment to be tested for PTSD every 30 / 60 / 90 days after returning back, it is ALSO a lot of self help services the most people who know they should go, don't because of the stigma of looking "weak". Most people feel that they are a joke BUT they are there for people who come forward and notice they need help. Most of the soldiers don't want to say "I have a problem and need to seek help.."
They try to suck it up or feel that the services wont help them at all. 90% of them who say that NEVER tried going to use the services, yet they can say they suck.

I know this FIRST hand because my unit just returned from deployment 12 days ago and I see how hard the Army is working on trying to help those who need it. The problem is the SOLDIERS dont come forward.

This ALSO just in, the major (yes, it was an officer) who was one of the shooters was having issues BEFORE he got to Fort Hood, and I heard he hasn't deployed yet, which pretty much negates the "PSTD" claim. I could be wrong, so blame Fox News if that is not right.

It's not the first time for Fort Hood. 16, 17 years ago, something like that, a bunch of people were killed by a gunman in a restaurant in Killeen. I remember it because I had been stationed at Fort Hood like a year and a half or two years earlier.

ETA: What's bizarre is that the shooter was apparently an officer. It's usually enlisted men who buckle.

From what I been gathering off the NIPR / SIPR net is that he was an officer and Muslim and was having marital problems (as in his wife had converted to Islam and was having problems adjusting) and kind of lost it. But there are also reports that he was not the only shooter.

(Oh btw, this isnt classified, but this stays here since I am giving you guys the blow by blow... The news agencies wont come close to what I will tell you..)

Hahaha, wow. This thread is all sorts of amusing. Full of all sorts of falsities... and some of them even related to the shooting.

"PTSD" is totally today's catchall idiot buzzword regarding veterans. I'm so glad the infotainment media will further denigrate our service members.

Background checks for the mentally ill work great on paper but... eh... not so well in real life: SEE - Virginia Tech Mass Shooting.

I'm glad that third parties get to decide who is mentally ill based on voluntary discussion of issues initiated by the soldier.

If you ask for help, you're broken. If the aid they prescribe is extraordinary, you're mentally ill and thus incompetent. No job, no gun, whatever.

Essentially a bunch of bullshit. The system is broken. Denial is the career survival mechanism. Suck it up. Drink water, drive on. Be a man.

Biased short-term personal anecdotes / horribly exaggerated victim fantasies need not apply.

From all of my best friends, who have all been deployed at least once, PTSD testing is all bullshit. One of my friends got back from Iraq a few months ago. Their "PTSD Testing" consisted of the entire unit going into a giant auditorium and having a psychologist go up in front of them and saying "Please don't beat the shit out of your wives. If you must, buy a dog and beat it". This being said to a room full of Marines who would take puppies, place them in a bag, and see how many times you had to hit the bag till they all stopped yelping and died. Or how long it would take for a bag of them to drown, just to cure boredom in Iraq.

His stories, not mine.

Nonetheless, my condolences to the shooters family, and to the family of all those who were wounded and killed. I think it's best put that men who kill their fellow countrymen have a special spot reserved for them in hell.

But there is no hell. There are only dead bodies and grieving families left behind. Where's the justice? Oh, yeah... there isn't any.

...

...

I fail to see how this psychotic dirt bag with a gun is any different from any other psychotic dirt bag with a gun.

He's just another Littleton / Binghamton / Blacksburg freakshow. The PTSD thing is an excuse, a diversion.

Everybody has an excuse. His may have been PTSD. Some guy used a Hostess snack cake. Women use PMS.

...

Let's blame the guns, let's blame the military, let's hold hands and sing We Are the World. Again and again.

We've got Lautenberg, we've got VT psych fallout, we've got all sorts of Good Will on Paper.

Nothing ever changes. I wonder where these dipshits will sit on SpreeKillers.org.

...

Ugh, military service is such a double-edged sword these days. "You were in the military, huh? Ever kill anybody?" Heh.

Agreed.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

"Hasan is single with no children."

Army says Fort Hood shooting rampage suspect is alive

Apparently, he's been discriminated against his entire military career, and tried many times to resign and have the harassment stopped, but to no avail.

Pfft, I wouldn't trust Wikipedia over anything else at this point, dude. Everybody at Hood has their dick tied in a knot right now.

What enforcement? You mean attendance, right? I mean, I escaped scout camp in 2007... so I may be dated... but psych evals are a joke, bro. 30/60/90 is just another grin and nod finger drill. I had some guys that had issues sleeping. They got Ambien and Jack Daniels for it. All better.

What services are you talking about? Jolly old Chaplain? Maybe some headshrinkers at Womack? Stuff you don't touch. The whole "weak" argument is moot. If you're E5+ or an O of any type in combat arms... you don't go there. You rub your wounded feelings on your X tab and drive on.

According to his cousin:

"He was dealing with some harassment from his military colleagues. I don’t think he’s ever been disenchanted with the military. It was the harassment. He hired a military attorney to try to have the issue resolved, pay back the government, to get out of the military. He was at the end of trying everything."

That's straight stupid. The same person also said he was a great american and a good guy.


This jackass just shot more than 40 people...most of whom he did not know; most were just young soldiers waiting to deploy.

PTSD is not an excuse, especially in this instance as the guy had never been deployed.

He is upset about being harrased? Maybe he should not have fought being deployed while in the military and after accepting an additional service obligation for free medical school. Or perhaps he shouldn't tell his co-workers that muslims should rise up and kill the Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq (not the exact quote, but the meaning). Or maybe he should have avoided drawing FBI attention for encouraging suicide bombers (who IIRC are mostly poofing themselves in the vicinity of Americans/American allies).

Also, he was a FIELD GRADE OFFICER. What does that mean? Basically he wins all the pissing contests because he outranks 95% or more of the military. If I "harassed" a Major I would be lucky to escape without severe (by civilian standards) discipline.


This person was pathetic. His hardships pale in comparison to many of those whom he supposedly counseled as a psychiatrist (psychologist?) and very likely compared to many of the people he shot. Even if the soldiers attending SRC were not hardened combat veterans, the vast majority were likely junior enlisted, which is no cakewalk.


Oh, and the final measure of who held the high ground today: After observing 40 of their comrades get shot, including the policewoman who shot the killer, soldiers/first responders still saved the guys life. Guess he shouldn't have given away his Koran.


I hope he gets a nasty infection and dies a horrible death complicated by swine flu.

I am interested by the suggestion by the Fort Hood press officer on the BBC just now that he carried out the shooting using his own personal weapons.

I'd have thought the one person that doesn't need weapons for the usual reasons (home security, self defence, etc) is a Major who lives on a huge military base.

Actually, you'd be surprised. I don't know about the Major, since I ranged from Private to Sergeant back when I lived at Hood, but there's often not enough room for all those soldiers, and many live off-base. And it is not exactly a safe area. I purchased my first handgun there, after someone tried to break into my apartment.

It's funny (not funny "ha-ha", but rather funny "interesting/peculiar") how this happens again and again. Here you have someone obviously extremely disenchanted, who is a prime candidate for going postal, who is conflicted by his faith and ethnic background on one hand and his duty to his nation and the service on the other, who is obviously having problems from every report we've heard, but he's still allowed to wander around armed, still not under any kind of supervision, or perhaps more importantly, there seems to have been no intervention to at least try to prevent this.

In addition, we have seen many times in the past spree shooters inspire other subsequent spree shooters - don't be surprised if in the next few weeks there is another similar incident.

I took this to mean, "Put that many people with guns in a small area and eventually someone will get shot dead"

with upwards of 25,000 people on base at any given time, it's basically a statistical certainty that you will have a nut with a gun somewhere in there.

No amount of screening or prevention will catch everyone.

I lost count of how many military people were on the news last night talking about what a joke the "ptsd testing" is

Hello, sir. I'd like a career in the armed forces please. Wait...What's this "fighting" bullshit? Are you freaking serious? No, I really didn't understand that I'd be expected to actually fight. You mean I have to pick up a weapon and go kill people? Fuck that. I could never do that. Instead, I think I'll pick up a weapon and go kill people.

Um.. wasn't this guy in the medic division? Medics are non-combatants and usually aren't issued military weapons. So, that would mean this was done with weapons of his own. Since he wasn't in the dorm and didn't have to put his personal weapons in a weapons box, it's kind of hard on a base that size to know that he was brandishing a weapon and was going to go apeshit.

It would be nice to actually hear something about the story without having to hear "muslim decent, international terrorism" in the same sentence every 2 minutes. He had a muslim background.. so fucking what?

The military is a different world. If you need supervision or help, there is something wrong with you. You aren't a true soldier... you aren't fit for combat etc etc etc..

Dude was just a nutcase with a gun on a huge military base. I don't see how the base or the army can be at fault here really other than if he was giving complaint reports about harassment, and they didn't stop it. Not an excuse, but it would have been easier to point out if he was going to go postal or not had they actually paid attention to it.

My heart really sank when his heritage was revealed because in the long run, it's the only thing many will remember: "That crazy Muslim..."

How do you think I feel? My application for OCS will be submitted soon, and the first thing the Naval Commission Board will see is my Arabic name.

That's completely irrational, bro. That's like suggesting that Virginia Tech was worried about admitting Korean students after 16 April 2007.

An Army of Gucci.

We will rule the earth.

There are probably a lot of factors that made this individual snap... but I fear that the one thing that is going to strike the media and by extension many of the people is his name (and by extension, his ethnicity and his religion)

There is some evidence that this was a political act based on the shooters Islamic belief. The evidence also points to a mentally troubled individual who attempted to use the Islamic religion to manage a growing mental illness.
1. Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's military record indicates that he received a poor performance evaluation while at Walter Reed. (AP source: Suspected shooter got poor evaluation)
2. Nidal Hasan did not suffer from PTSD acquired from combat in the military. (Fort Hood Shooting by Army Doctor Nidal Malik Hasan Leaves 12 Dead - ABC News)
3. Witnesses report that Hasan shouted, "Allahu Akbar!" before opening fire.
4. Here’s what Hasan supposedly wrote about suicide bombers:

There was a grenade thrown amongs a group of American soldiers. One of the soldiers, feeling that it was to late for everyone to flee jumped on the grave with the intention of saving his comrades. Indeed he saved them. He inentionally took his life (suicide) for a noble cause i.e. saving the lives of his soldier. To say that this soldier committed suicide is inappropriate. Its more appropriate to say he is a brave hero that sacrificed his life for a more noble cause. Scholars have paralled this to suicide bombers whose intention, by sacrificing their lives, is to help save Muslims by killing enemy soldiers. If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers because they were caught off guard that would be considered a strategic victory. Their intention is not to die because of some despair. The same can be said for the Kamikazees in Japan. They died (via crashing their planes into ships) to kill the enemies for the homeland. You can call them crazy i you want but their act was not one of suicide that is despised by Islam. So the scholars main point is that “IT SEEMS AS THOUGH YOUR INTENTION IS THE MAIN ISSUE” and Allah (SWT) knows best. (NidalHasan | Scribd)

5. According to National Public Radio, he recently gave a Grand Rounds presentation. . . (You take turns giving a lecture on the correct treatment of schizophrenia, the right drugs to prescribe for personality disorder, that sort of thing). But instead of giving an academic paper, he gave a lecture on the Koran. He said that if you’re a nonbeliever the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire. One of the Muslims in the audience, another psychiatrist, raised his hand and was quite disturbed. He said a lot of us don’t believe these things you’re saying. People actually talked in the hallway afterwards about ‘is he one of these people that’s going to freak out and shoot people someday?’

6. Hasan was put on probation early in his postgraduate work at the Uniformed Service University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md. He was disciplined for proselytizing about his Muslim faith with patients and colleagues, according to the source, who worked with him at the time.” (NPR)

7. Hasan attended the Muslim Community Center in Silver Spring and was “very devout,” according to Faizul Khan, a former imam at the center. Khan said Hasan attended prayers at least once a day, seven days a week, often in his Army fatigues.
Khan also said Hasan applied to an annual matrimonial seminar that matches Muslims looking for spouses. “I don’t think he ever had a match, because he had too many conditions,” Khan said.
“We never got into details of worldly affairs or politics,” the former imam said of his conversations with Hasan. “Mostly religious questions. But there was nothing extremist in his questions. He never showed any frustration. . . . He never showed any . . . wish for vengeance on anybody.”

8. According to the Washington Post, he steered clear of female colleagues and despite devout religious practices, listed himself in Army records as having no religious preference…
“He came to mosque one or two times to see if there were any suitable girls to marry,” Khan said. “I don’t think he ever had a match, because he had too many conditions. He wanted a girl who was very religious, prays five times a day.”…

9. A co-worker at Walter Reed said Hasan would not allow his photo to be taken with female co-workers, which became an issue during Christmas season when employees often took group photos. Co-workers would find a solo photo of Hasan and post it on the bulletin board without his permission.

10. Hasan’s cousin says Hasan decided after 9/11 that he didn’t want to deploy overseas, that he heard horrific stories from returning soldiers, and that he was harassed by other troops.

11. Ret. Col. Terry Lee alleges that Hasan thought Muslims should stand up and fight the “aggressor” [the United States] and that he was “happy” about the shooting in Little Rock. Apparently Hasan was also increasingly agitated by the fact that Obama hasn’t pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Wow, this thread got quiet quick. Now that rampant speculation in the wrong direction has passed, would anyone like to discuss what really happened? We certainly have some real facts to work with. Like the fact that this was entirely motivated by his religious beliefs. The fact that this man was in direct contact with a known terrorist supporting cleric. The fact that he violated military law by proselytizing his faith in uniform. The fact that his actions were planned in advance (selling or giving away furniture and possessions, buying weapons in advance).

So, anyone have any speculation about the cause of this?

About the causes of radicalization? Or about the cause of the incident?

Am I the only one who thinks that Maj. Hasan is the same kind of nutjob but in different packaging as this guy:

TVUC Shootings

Religion was just the excuse.

His daddy was a thief and his momma was a whore. Poor poor Nidal.

They say irony died with the Twin Towers. I think sarcasm had a lot to do with it.

Regardless, perhaps there is an increasing issue with home-grown radicalization in America post-9/11. The problem with that is it makes every Muslim a potential "nut job."

No, the problem isn't with religion (i.e. Islam). Much of the problem is social and cultural. What causes radicalization?

???

As loonie as this guy is I've read a few articles regarding how morally opposed he was to the US' involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, and how he was actively trying to avoid being sent there. Failing that it looks like he just snapped. Seems to me that if he had of just been classified as a conscientious objector a lot of his apprehensions could have been mollified. I'm not really sure how the process for COs works in the US military, but if he was seeking CO status that really demonstrates a problem with the administration.

radicalisation used to be easy to classify. Mostly it was young muslim men usually between the ages of 18-35, from a lower to middle class, unemployed and not much better to do than grind an axe and blame the western world for his problems and sorrows, thinking/wishing/hoping to go back to the 'golden age' of Islam.

these days the generalisation has shifted and changed. though there is the stock-standard ive described above, but now we are getting middle class men (and some women) with degrees, doctorates and people of higher standing in society deciding that radicalisation is the only way to go.

if you want to win this war against radicalisation, you need to win the minds of the masses. never mind what the cliche' tells you about winning hearts and minds. if you win the mind, you win the heart. education is the key factor i believe. without education, you lose a level in social standing, and you are back to square one.

i agree..i call nutjob..the question is how do you police against this?

For starters, when an Army Major starts ranting about radical Islam in the way that Hasan did, you Section-8 his ass. Hasan wasn't at all reticent about his beliefs, in fact he went out of his way (and frequently off-topic) while in school to deliver lectures about the virtues of Islam, violent Jihad, and forced conversion. Classmates and professors describe him repeatedly ignoring assigned topics for discussion or writing, and instead utilising his "front time" to give lectures on justification for suicide bombing (among other things). His communications with a radical cleric overseas, which we now know to have been common knowledge within at least two Federal law-enforcement agencies, should have been the icing on the cake.

Islam is not to blame. Muslims are not to blame. This individual Muslim radical is to blame. But this individual Muslim radical had help from an Army establishment that was well aware of his ideology and the propensities that ideology imparts, and which did nothing because it was worried about "diversity" suffering, as evidenced by the fact that such concerns were among the first public comments made by any Army official in reaction to the shootings.

Diversity is good. But like all good things, it can be carried too far, as it was in Maj. Hasan's case. The military should embrace its' Muslim Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen; they are doing a very difficult job, made much more difficult by the likelihood of friction (or worse) from their families, their clergy, and sometimes their co-workers. However, the Defense Dept. needs to pull its' head out of its' collective ass on this one. Gang-members are already becoming a problem, with gang tags showing up with some (and increasing) frequency in Baghdad for about 3yrs now. If the Defense Dept. is so desperate for people that it's retaining gang-bangers and Really Frikkin' Obvious Section-8's like Hasan, then perhaps a re-evaluation (long overdue) of -why- they need so many people (bases in 135 countries, 2.5 active wars, etc) should be considered.

But maybe religion is the problem. Any sort of fundamentalist has to ignore reality to embrace an alternate reality centered around faith and lack of logic. Whether Christian or Muslim. Hell, the Japanese believed that their emperor in WW2 was a living god, so buddhism was used to incite war and massacre millions.

As far as social and cultural influences, what religion does not provide that? Every freakin' religious holiday and festival from Ramadan to Christmas, Easter, Diwali, what have you. If you are steeped in religion then you have had your head boiled.

Ann Coulter is the christian version of the hatred spouting kill all jews and infidels imam.

Maybe the more hardcore fundies a religion has, the more dangerous it is. Mormons in Texas, statuatory rape of teenage girls in the guise of spiritual polygamy. A high concentration of Jews, settlement camps and fighting in Palestine. A radical christian US president who talks directly to god, a war on Iraq under false pretenses. Christians killing abortion doctors. It seems to me that there is a very high concentration of fundy islamists so there is a high proportion of "nutjobs" willing to murder in the name of allah.

As far as mental illness, what indicates that he was mentally ill?

That muslim community center in Silver Spring, MD is located less than a mile from where I spent my childhood, and my stepfather still lives there. My mom used to call New Hampshire Ave the highway to heaven because of the plethora of religious institutions along it. Over the course of about ten miles, you had St Johns roman catholic, The cambodian buddhist temple, the episcopal church my family went to occasionally growing up, the russian orthodox complete with onion domes that shared property with the MCC, and further up you had the jehovah's witnesses, who nobody liked. I know I missed others.

You know, this is like saying the military is the problem since so many people are killed violently.

It's a common thing to not be able to see the forest for the trees. The function of religion is not to live in alternate realities, no matter how it may seem on the surface. The function of religion is a guide to living -- how does one do good, how does one avoid evil, and other such matters.

When this gets hijacked by those in despair and who may or may not be sound of mind, it tends to force us to look at religion in the wrong light.

Religion isn't the problem. Militaries aren't the problem. Weapons aren't the problem.

Becoming distracted by this and we'll likely miss the real problems.

Seriously, if religion were the problem, what in hell could be done about it to make things better?

It's a distraction.

religion is a guide to living. wow. That is my point. It teaches people how to live a certain way, and says that other ways of living are ultimately an abomination of god's will. all religions with a god figure or figures do this. they may not openly advocate killing in god's name (though all have done this at one time or another), but the underlying message is that you are right and they are wrong. it just simply happens that islam is currently the most violent and backwards acting religion currently. do you feel that it is appropriate to discriminate against women? islam does. Saudi Arabia, the seat and founding country of islam does not allow women to drive, be alone with a man, or wear her choice in clothing. A woman was murdered here in the US by her father for becoming westernized. this would not have raised an eyebrow in pakistan, saudi arabia, iran, iraq, or many other places.

Willravel railed against iran killing atheists. Iran is a muslim run country. islam killed the atheists, for having different religious views.

I can't see the forest for the trees? maybe political correctness has blinded you.

Ha ha.

No.:rolleyes:

so you can name religions that don't do that? That there are religions that have never discriminated or said that "these people are going to heaven, these are going to hell".

Please, add to the conversation.

Judaism is the easy answer.

You are having difficulty separating religion from culture.

new man, you would have a great point if it weren't for the BILLIONS of religious believers of all varieties that don't go out shooting nonbelievers. Your logic dictates that The Beatles actually were responsible for the Manson murders.

Uhh, yeah, jews have. remember, jews are god's chosen and therefore most aren't even lucky enough to be born jewish, and forget about converting. so, their religion discriminates against nonjews. therefore, us vs them.

Religion is culture and society for billions of people. I still celebrate christmas, whether it is a christian, pagan, or amalgamation of ideas. Religion and culture are not seperate, they are intertwined for most people in the world.

You've just demonstrated your ignorance of Judaism. You want to take another crack at Islam?

More like culture is influenced by religion. I agree that they are both different but the introduction of religion blurs the two.

Does anyone want to tell me why more people have a problem with Osama bin Laden than the Dalai Lama?


I don't know if religion influences culture more than culture influences religion, but the too are indeed connected. But does this make religion the problem?

You might want to consult a Jew (we have several on the TFP) about;

1: How the Jews came to be "God's Chosen." Here's a hint; God held a mountain over their heads and said "Y'all might want this Torah thing."
2: Conversion to Judaism; it's rare and it isn't easy, but it is done and there's been legal/religious architecture in place for conversion for centuries. My older sister converted to Judaism several years ago, and nobody at her Orthodox congregation gives her any flak for it.

Moreover, Judaism doesn't teach a Heaven-vs-Hell dichotomy; Judaism doesn't even posit the existence of Hell. Some sects of Judaism teach, in fact, that Goyim (that's non-Jews) have a much easier time attaining Righteousness because unlike Jews, who must ideally follow 613 individual religious strictures, Goyim have only to keep 7 universal commandments which are really pretty basic, common-sense stuff. Most sects of Judaism also posit that, when the Messiah comes and the world is made Righteous and whole again, all people will be resurrected and remade in their own primal, essential and essentially Righteous self; Jews and non-Jews alike. Not only does Judaism -not- posit the existence of Hell, it posits instead that -all- people will be made perfect (ie "go to Heaven") at The End.

Educate yourself.

don't get distracted by my heaven vs hell comment. the jews who worshipped false idols had gold poured down their throats for not living the way their religion dictated. Blow down the walls of jericho. The canaanites. The Midians. us vs them. educate yourself.

Lack of political correctness is not ignorance. Political correctness in the face of reality is willful ignorance. And I'll take on all religions, for they are all based on false premises. But they go in order from most threatening to least threatening. Until Fred Phelps and his ilk start killing gays, then they are not high on my radar. pagans dancing naked around fairy circles? mildly entertaining. Priests molesting children, much bigger problem. But when you compare the reaction of christians to Andre Serrano's "Piss Christ" to the storm that overtook Europe when some muslim cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper, then you have to look closely at islam. Yale University Press self-censored for fear of violent reprisal in regards to their decision to not publish the cartoons in a discussion about the "controversy".

The Atheist Crusader

Not high on your radar until they start killing gays? wow, so someone has to die before you notice them or worry about them, or give a shit about it? Seems like you have an issue with Islam, and blaming an entire religion because there are extremeists in the world is the easiest way, or a case of saying a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Hell you've got christians who kill doctors who perform abortion, does that mean that Christianity should be looked at closely?

In a sense yes. Think of the reason behind many actions carried out in the times. Religion appeals to a higher purpose. In the name of god encompass the spirit of justice, all that is good, all that is pure and all that is giving/fulfilling in life and creation.

The means at which this deity is appeased is also the tool used to measure ones purity.

do you go after the biggest or smallest problems in your life? If your house is on fire, do you stop and yell at the dog for pissing on the carpet? Or do you deal with the biggest problem first?

Where do you draw the line between extremism and mainstreamism?

Again with the ignorance comments. I would argue that the amount of violence perpretated in the name of islam is not extremism. It is not the majority, but it is too great to be ignored. What will it take for you to wake up? will it be one of your muslim neighbors being stoned to death because a sharia court has formed in your neghborhood?

In reply to Jay's edit. Absofreakinlutely. it is killing in the name of religion. When christians claim that marriage is theirs and not for gays, then there is a problem. If the dalai lama stated that he was going to fuck up some chinks, then there would be a problem. The less influence a religion has on society, the better it is.

I'd tell the dog good show, he's using his hose to try and put out the fire.

Yet the amount of violence perpretated in the name of Christianity isn't too great to be ignored? Again you pick and choose, whichever one you have more of an issue with, Islamic violence bad, Christians killing doctors, not on my radar. When are you going to wake up? When your neighbour is shot because he performs abortions?

I just answered your edit regarding abortion doctors and their christian murderers.

How many people are killed in the name of christianity or judaism or buddhism or hinduism or paganism or islam each year? Also, is that violence spread worldwide or concentrated in a relatively small area?

See, this is what I'm getting at. You aren't speaking about religion in isolation; you are speaking about religion and culture.

Christians fighting against gay marriage does not summarize any Christian tenet I can think of. But there we have it: anti-gay sentiment flaring up when they want to marry just like the heteros.

And the Dalai Lama going after the Chinese would be in direct violation of a swath of Buddhist teachings. But there we have it: that tension between China and Tibet.

And in terms of your thinking that there should be no religion for a better society, is this idea influenced by the Marxist view of religion or is this more of a totalitarian thing?

I reiterate: religion is not the problem.

Osama needs a good run through the barber... he wouldn't be so evil with a shave and a hair cut.

You are the one who kept insisting it was culture, exclusive of religion. As far as where this comes from, it is not marxist or a totalitarian approach. Religion is totalitarian. Here is set of handed from across the great beyond. If you do not obey them, you will suffer eternal torments. My approach is that if you try to abitrarally control my life without a rational explanation, then you are going to have a disagreement. Saying a voice in your head or book made these rules is no basis for legal or societal rules.

This is completely false.

This is not totalitarianism. Most religions I know have practitioners whose lives are their own, free to choose to do what they wish. That religions teach about negative consequences for "evil" actions, or best practices for solidifying your faith, is not totalitarianism; it's moral philosophy.

I can only assume that you haven't studied religion or philosophy at length. Religious systems at their root do not seek to control, nor are their parameters arbitrary. And many of them are quite rational, and have a strong basis in most, if not all, societies and their rules and laws.

Are you implying that Islam in and of itself is to blame for this guy going off? That Islam taught him that this is the best way to act?

..

Well, I disagree with this but ... the rest is a matter of opinion.

Goodnight, folks!
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...y/simpsons.gif

yes, goodnight folks.. dont forget to PM me and send me all your addresses so i can personally move in and become neighbour to you all...

you never know.....

Religion is totalitarian. All islamojudeochristians are fucked because of original sin. You are born into sin and you can only try to seek redemption. Abraham, the father of the people of the book, was going to kill his own son. His son did not ask for that. So instead he mutilates his penis. Then he goes on to mutilate the penises of his slaves, who did not agree to the supposed covenant with god. You ever hear of the expression "slave of allah"? Christ claimed that the kingdom of heaven can only be entered through him. The free will claim was made by jesuits after the printing press was developed. People started reading the bible and saying "hey bishop, the stuff you said isn't even in this book. What are you trying to teach us?" So the jesuits learned to argue their asses off to confuse people and keep them in the catholic church. The ones who didn't became protestants. That is why jesuit schools like Georgetown university produce so many lawyers and diplomats. Clinton was jesuit trained. He got to stand there and ask for the definition of what is is.

Religion and culture and arbritrary rules. You can argue that prohibitions against eating swine, shellfish, lobsters and such helped prevent illness in desert situation with inadequate food storage. So religious rules incorporated that as a protection. However, religions do not evolve. Now we know that pork is just as safe to eat as other meats . But a religion cannot admit it was wrong, because it would be evolving. So eating pork is still blasphemy. There is your arbitrary bullshit made up rule.

Your comments about religion not seeking to control show a clear lack of understanding of the motivations of the religious institutions, their propensity for power grabbing and consolidation, and their willingness to sacrifice others for their own gain. Stop pretending that religions are based on a real supernatural force and instead look at the reasons religions exist. Power, control, the ability of the few to manipulate the many. Follow the money.

Other than that, I have no more to discuss. Nitpick every little point you want, but the thrust of my message is there.

Somebody call EOD. We've got a live one.

That's where i stopped reading because what you said was so full of shit that there was no reason to read on.

Please, dont forget to PM your address newman, i'd love to personally become a neighbour of yours, maybe knock on your door and offer you some arabic sweets, baclava most likely. i'm guessing you wont open that door though.

dlish can you move in next to me, I have a neighbour who needs to be taught a lesson, and you seem like the man to do the job:lol:

Ahh, I see where the confusion comes from. When I said all of Adam and Eve's children are fucked from original sin, I meant that from a religious/figurative sense. See, people of the book will argue that free will applies with their relationship with god. However, everyone who is born is already a sinner from the original sin from a biblical/religious standpoint. So no matter how pure and noble you are, you are tainted(fucked) by sin. The only one who wasn't is jesus. I don't mean that all islamojudeochristians are fucked, or fuckers, but that the trap of original sin is the tool employed by religious institutions as a catchall for why you need their doctrine.

BTW, it is not newman, it is new man.

And you did bring up a good point earlier, in that how do we prevent radicalization in the muslim world? The general model is young, uneducated single males, but Hasan obviously did not fit that mold. National Public Radio also talked about how the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks studied in the US for several years, achieving his BS in engineering. Most people feel that exposure to other cultures helps mediate people's viewpoints. but that did not work for Hasan or Maliki.