Ethnic Slurs *NSFW language*
 

I've had some cool teachers in my life - the kind who could joke with you, give and take a little abuse (all in good fun), actually teach and still manage to always be in control of the class. Now, I got to thinking about the types of abuse they throw around, one of them (pertinent to myself being of the visually impaired persuasion) is four-eyes. Now, I've never really been upset with someone calling me 'four-eyes'. I wear glasses, I don't have any control over it, it's just biology. I can, however, understand how it would bother some people. But, if a teacher called another student four-eyes in a manner that could only be construed as 'joking', nobody would really care. If that same teacher dropped an N-Bomb though jokingly...well I don't think I need to lay it out for you.

So, I was wondering, why do we bandwagon around the offensiveness of ethnic slurs, particularly the word 'nigger'?

I actually had like a 10 minute debate with myself whether or not to write it out anywhere or just post it as 'the n-word'. Which is what I want to look at, why is that so strongly ingrained in my head. I'm a white person and as such I shouldn't, under any circumstances, let the word pass my lips even to discuss it. I don't understand this, I mean even for the sake of discussion, I'm not calling anyone a nigger, ever. I wouldn't do that. I would call someone four-eyes, jokingly, though. It certainly isn't outside the realm of logical possibility to use, not just nigger but any ethnic slur, jokingly. It seems like with this one class of words it isn't possible to joke with them in actuality. Why not? I can't see any reason.

This led me to think about why we don't say certain words, what about them makes them 'unspeakable'. The only thing I can come up with is the injuriousness of the word. But, how do we measure that, or decide where the lines are. For example, the characteristic that you're insulting seems to matter most. Four eyes is less offensive than camel jockey - so it isn't on biology, or more appropriately things people cannot control about themselves. Not only that, it seems that most of us would agree some racial slurs are worse than others (see: gringo vs. wetback), at least in how they make us feel, if not intellectually. Someone wants to call me a gringo (they have in fact, in Mexico at that), I don't give a shit.

Maybe that's the key, it's all in how offended the receiver is? I don't buy that, because it's entirely possible for say, an Italian with glasses to be more offended by four-eyes than wop. But the former would be better tolerated than the latter by the rest of us, even if that isn't the case for the individual. Maybe it's about the past use of the word? For example, nigger has been used to inflict more damage over the course of history (at least in America) therefore it's the most despised here. I don't see why that is important either, the idea that a word being used more times to insult someone makes the word somehow, more insulting makes no sense to me.

It seems somehow that we've all managed to agree with each other that this is the way things are. To quote Douglas Adams: "...it’s just one of those things that crept into being and once that loop gets going it’s very, very powerful." I'd like to question why that is though, TFPers. Why is it, that we ring-fence around the idea the ethnic slurs are so much more offensive and despicable that other sorts of slurs?

I was giving a speech in high school (pres) when some little freshman punk in the front of the auditorium said "stupid fucking kike".

To which I responded instantly with, "you forgot rich, handsome, and popular asshole" to which everyone laughed and I got slapped on the wrist by administration. I don't really care; someone willing to generalize me to the point of referring to me only by the religious background I was literally born into is obviously an ignorant asshole. It doesn't feel like justification for me, I just really don't care.

I think a lot of it has to do with the horrors that have gone on in the world, especially the western world, that involve racial discrimination. So to have someone say something that encourages said horrors is what people get bent out of shape about. Understandably. I punched a guy who told me the holocaust was the second best thing the germans ever did after BMW. I also make very risque jokes involving race and sexual preference in a very flat and straight way; which could come across as racist/homophobic when really it's satirical.

I think it comes down to intention and reception. It's wrong if either of those things aren't positive.

powerful images will, especially the first one.

Yeah, I had to take it in a bit before posting it.

I get that name-calling really isn't all that appropriate whether the name is four-eyes or ni**er*, but the historical context does speak to the power each name has.

So then at what point does it become appropriate to "let go?" Or will it forever be attached to black people? And only black people in America and the Western world?

the word nigger in and of itself isn't offensive.. it's how you use it.

For instance, if I said: Gun Owners are the new niggers of society, it's not offensive. It's simply using the word to relate to a disparaged subsection of society.

Now if I walk up to a black man or woman and yell out Nigger, then obviously it would be seen as offensive.

You can't guarantee that. Some people might very well find that offensive.

people are going to be offended by what they want to be offended by. if they can't see the difference then I shall get offended by their stupidity! :rolleyes:

some people only focus on one word and only focus on one definition of that word.. that's not my fault.. it's theirs.

I think that's too nuanced to apply to society in general. As soon as that word goes off (or something similar sounding like "niggardly") peoples ears shoot up. It's definitely one of those better safe than sorry things where it's better to simply not say it, then to be dragged into confrontation with someone who may not understand.

Nah, let's perpetuate all our racist heritage through words.

That's the right thing to do.

/progress

I cringe when I hear (or read) the n word. I could never use it in any way. Looking at those pictures makes me sad and it turns my stomach to think of these atrocities.

while I tend to agree, are you saying we shouldn't challenge people to think and understand that words have more than one meaning and context?

Obviously, it's a word that I don't use personally or that should be used in it's racial context when dealing with black people, but it seems a bit odd to me that things have become so PC that black, white, yellow etc don't even know the basis of words other than what it means to their subset of society.

On the other hand, it might be really stupid to use the word in mixed company regardless of the context, so it's their decision as to whether or not to be offended by what's likely a very bad decision in your choice of words.

The word was born of pure hate and speaks back to a time when black people (among others) were regarded and treated as less than human, regardless of how you try to twist it into something else. People aren't going to forget that for a very, very long time.

If you don't believe me, work in the hypothetical sentence you just posted into a conversation with a few black people. Gauge their reactions.

I have conversations with black people every day.. most of whom make fun of the word and how everyone is scared of it.. the ones I hang out with have no problem with me saying "What up Nigga?"

Granted, I completely understand what you and the others are saying, I'm merely just pointing out that there are uses for it other than a hate or racial slur.

Nigger is an interesting word.

Until the last generation, it was used throughout the British Empire to mean "anyone not Caucasian". It was for people of sub-Saharan African descent, Arabs, Mongols, Chinese, etc etc.

In more recent times it has come to mean only "black" people with some degree of sub-Saharan descent.

The perceived objectionability of the word nigger (when used by anyone other than one black person to another) has risen dramatically even in my lifetime - in the 1970's it was a bad word, undoubtedly, but not the nuclear option it is now. Saying nigger was like saying "hell" or "shit" these days - you'd get slammed, but you wouldn't be pilloried as you might today.

I don't know why - maybe it's a "tide in the affairs of man".

There certainly are, but as white people it's dangerous for us to venture down those avenues, especially in mixed company.

Willravel: I don't understand the atrocity that was slavery. When I say that I mean that I know it was bad(undestatement much?), what I mean is it was awful in a way that to me is just incomprehensible.

So was the holocaust (not Godwinned, it's relevant), but I don't think the blowback from 'kike' in a crowded would even come close to matching the insanity that would follow 'nigger'.

These words exist and are used for identical purposes, but some are perceived to be more offensive, more inflammatory. Why is that?

It appears to me that it's only offensive depending on the ethnicity of the speaker.

African Americans (AA's cause I'm too lazy to type) call each other the N word all the time. I've overheard it in the Wal-Mart parking lot, in popular songs by AA artists, at the shop where my husband works and in movies where nary a protest is heard.

AA's can also call Hispanics or Latin Americans by the N word as a form of greeting.

Hispanics call each other Spic, can call AA's Spic as a form of greeting and for some odd reason call each other the N word.

AA's and Hispanics can call anyone not AA or Hispanic whitey, white boy, cracker, red neck and are somehow given a pass and it's ok.

The only people not allowed to call anyone any ethnic name is a person who is white. Then the protests start, the ACLU becomes involved, people lose their jobs, if anything happens in conjunction with an ethnic slur then it's a hate crime.

I never, whether in public or my husband's work environment hear white people use ethnic slurs. I only hear AA's and Hispanics and other minorities using them.

There is no denying that any ethnic slur is offensive and rude. But really, if it's so offensive and rude, then those very people who find it offensive and rude should stop using it in their everyday language and toward one another. It seems more a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

I don't really know how to compare the slave trade to the holocaust. I've probably written and deleted ten responses to your post without success. I think the key lies in the act of enslavement, but I'm having trouble articulating how it's relevant to the difference between ni**er in the US and something like kike in Europe. Maybe it's because I'm not even convinced that they'd result in such different responses. If I heard "kike", I'd likely respond in a similar way as if I were to hear "ni**er".

a question about that second picture.

am i missing something, am i not seeing something? its people standing in a farm doing farm work. why is that powerful or cringe inducing?

do these affect you in any way? (other than the white chick wearing a wool hat. WTF?)

http://www.gracharity.com/images/09/...hotos/Farm.JPG

LIFE: Men and women working in the field. - Hosted by Google

i understand black people were slaves and made to pick cotton, so you see a black person standing in a cotton field and think "that is horrible" but aren't you putting something into the picture that isn't there?

i am not trying to be funny or play devils advocate or anything. i am serious. its just a picture of people standing in a field. this doesn't bother me at all. i take it for what is portrayed. not for what it might mean or symbolize. for all i know, that was a picture of a cotton farmer and his wife standing with him.

If they try to stop picking cotton, they will be beaten by their owner. If they try to leave, they will either have to go hundreds of miles being chased or will be caught, beaten and/or killed. That's their entire life, from the day they can pick cotton until the day they're too old or sick to pick cotton.

Are we due for one of these threads already?

Location and historical context.


How scientific.

History_of_the_United_States

Who'd have thought it was really so simple.

that sounds like the life of a slave, which is detestable, i'm not denying that.

i don't think that when i see the picture. i see people standing in a field. i don't know the context of that picture. if they had chains on and the guy didn't have a shirt on, or if there was a white guy with a whip in the picture, i would feel outrage. people standing around in a field working doesn't bother me.

i cannot find it, but there is a rather famous (i think) Time/Life picture of a black man, shirtless, chained to a tree, having been whipped and beaten to death. THAT disturbs me and bothers me and makes me cringe.

We'll probably get a few more before someone says something deeply offensive and we (white people) all put our unexplainable fascination/obsession with black people and culture on the back burner for a while.

I don't have a problem with typing the word 'nigger' when it's the word that needs to be used to talk about its usage or, for instance, to mention the Patti Smith song, Rock and Roll Nigger. I wouldn't know how to react to gucci's use of the word without knowing exactly what he means...I have an idea, but I'm not sure how accurate it is.

For me, I think the use comes down to common sense. Yes, black people use the term to refer to themselves and others, but it is usually akin to the way women will refer to each other as 'bitch.' For a man that she is not acquainted with to walk up and say, 'hey, bitch' the word would likely garner a different reaction. And understandably so. It's an old saw by now, but it is a way of reclaiming the word in a comradely way (with an exception made for both words used during conflict, of course).

I think the difference between the words 'four-eyes' and 'nigger' is, pretty plainly, the vitriolic hate that lies behind the use of one the words. To my knowledge, no one has been lynched in American history for needing glasses. As for myself personally, I was raised around people who used the word in a disrespectful way and I have always known, from a very young age without having to give it much thought, that it was ugly, base and ignorant. I'm thankful that my parents were among that first generation of Southerners who rejected racism and all of its thoughtless traditions en masse as an acceptable way to talk and think. Sometimes I think it's because people of subsequent generations have no practical basis for understanding how commonly the word was used just a few short decades ago (still is in some places) that they don't understand the incendiary quality of that word in particular. I'm only 43-years-old - hardly old - and I remember it.

What I really don't understand when I hear white people express consternation about not being able to use the word (as if it is not fair), is why - why do you want to use the word? There is no practical, congenial way in which to use it if you are not in a position to be comradely. So why do you care?

i don't get it either. i don't care if i can use the word or not, i don't know when i would ever need to use it or how i would use it. even if i could, i would not go up to a friend and say "what up nigga?"

Bad words or gestures used with venom attack you for something you are, something you're related to or something you've done.

Four eyes = personally, physically offensive.
Cunt = personally offensive due to an unwelcome behaviour.

Bastard (traditional) = Calls into question the sexual morality of your mother, her relationship with your father and your relationship with your entire family.

Nigger/*Monkeynoises*/Gollywog/Paki/Rag head/Gook/Spic etc = Categorise, denigrate, deride and degrade you, any and all characteristics about you, anything you do or have done as well as every one of those things directed against all of your family, ancestors, friends and their ancestors back into antiquity and beyond. Purely as a function of your skintone and/or culture.

Any insults, used with venom, have a range. The range for racist abuse (not just the words, the abuse, the venom is necessary as well) is way off the chart with regard to something personal and physical, like four-eyes.

Got that, you four-eyed honky?

---------- Post added at 10:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

And, growing up and existing in a some well-mixed areas, those racial bad words could be thrown around, without venom, and they're fine.

Like "gay" went from an insult to a positive statement of pride (with a little reaction at the moment that will pass), people take back bad words and deprive them of their power.

In a way, lifting the word up to its status as "unspeakable" maintains and even inreases its power and the power of the idiots who would use it as invective.

isn't that the revelation of Richard Pryor once he got to Africa?

It doesn't have to be a scientitic study. Listen to radio? Watch movies? Go out in public? Watch the news? Read the newspaper? It's all right there. Maybe because I live in Central Florida it's more prevelent but it is everywhere, everyday where I live.

I'm citing my experiences today, now - not necessarily the history of the United States.

It is, in my opinion, that simple. If a particular group of people, be it ethnic or otherwise want to proclaim that certain words are offensive and derogatory than they should stop using those certain words themselves in any context. I tell you the word Apple is offensive and a slur. You can't say it! How could you! Don't you dare! But I run around calling all my friends Apples, my co-worker, "Hey there Apple" and a stranger on the street, "Sup Apple".

If you don't like the word, don't use it. It is that simple.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion only. No apples were harmed in making this statement, nor are any slights to be perceived to any fruit, race or gender.

Lenny Bruce tried.

Here is Dustin Hoffman portraying Lenny.

But you can't just pull something like this out of historical context. Today's experiences is neccessarily informed by that history.


Nigger. It's just a word but the mean of words to shift over time. Yes, I can use the word in it's correct dictionary definition but why bother. That definition has since been tainted with all the negativity that represents White oppression of Blacks. Why carry that baggage around? Yes, it has been reclaimed in certain cultural circles. The idea being that if I am black and use it, it will defang the word.

In the end, it's an offensive word. There are plenty of them and they are offensive for a reason. Try using words like, Cunt, Fuck, Mother Fucker, etc. in mixed company (for example with your Grandmother). You will see that these words carry meanings that are offensive to some (perhaps many). To use them in such a way shows, at best, a laziness in your language. It goes downhill from there.

I like where the video ring posted is going, and it illustrates kind of what I was thinking.

Let me use the (sort of) reverse word here: Cracker.

Now, As I understand it, cracker doesn't have a damn thing to do with saltines. It's an attempt to turn the bigotry and domination of slavery on it's head. It refers to the 'whip crackers' of slavery. It's an insult against the dominating, exploiting, power mongering WASPy types. I guess the idea is to call attention to our disgusting past, to show us for who we are, or at least how were and are viewed now.

There should be at least as much vitriol surrounding it as there is the word nigger, it grows out of the same hatred and intolerance and history. But us white folk don't really seem to care about it. As long as we don't care, as long as anyone doesn't care that the word is being used to describe them, to attack them then it doesn't have any power.

Why can't we just let it go?

So, you're saying that ethnic slurs attack the entire history of that ethnic group, but four-eyes only attack the particular individual you're saying it to? Ok, but what about the discrepency between the treatment of ethnic slurs for different groups, or say other slurs for blacks, lots of people would say nigger is the worst one, but take boogey or spearchucker, same thing - not as highly inflammatory, in my perception.

If you dropped all the words mentioned so far on a list and asked people to rate them in order from least offensive to most offensive, which is going to be at the top, which at the bottom? I would bet a our lists would all look very similar, it's an emotional response, but why is that so ruling. Really there isn't any difference so far as I can see but they're treated that way.

Nothing offends me. It's their problem if they are offended by some label. What happened in the past is history, not something to be used against people today. And when it comes to comedy, nothing is off limits. Nothing should be censored.

Internet Rule #42: Nothing is sacred.

In real life, people should respect one another and have class. If you need to use labels to put someone else down, they have lost and are pathetic.

Words have the power we give them. Nigger is an offensive word because it is deemed to be so.

The other side is that I really don't see a context where one can use nigger in a positive way. This makes it a useless word to me.

I have no problem with saying/typing/hearing the word nigger, because I refuse to be afraid of a word. At the same time, I have no reason to ever use it, because I refuse to judge someone based on their melanin content.

I'm not a big smiley user. Do we have one for shrugged shoulders?

I see where you're going and it's cool. Problem is, most people do not approach the issue with the same spirit as Lenny Bruce. What I see behind a lot of these arguments is resentment. And it goes a lot deeper than just a word. It's the spirit (benevolence) that defuses the word of its power.

Devaluation through dilution. Some of my black friends and I refer to each other as "my nigga" because among my closest friends and our acquaintances, we're pretty much a microcosm of the colorblind society that's the supposed ideal. Between us, these words are just words and have lost their capacity to do harm. Among the black community and other minority groups, "nigger" has been devalued and is not harmful because members of the group understand the intention of the speaker. If, for example, I were to walk down the street with my friend Devin and I called a passerby a nigger, there is no history, no social contract between me and him, no evidence that I meant no harm by it, and he would have every right to be offended. If a random passerby called Devin a nigger with no prior evidence of a social contract and common understanding, Devin would have a right to be offended and suspicious of the perpetrator. If I, the giant white guy, went up to a friend and said "I'm Ian, this is my real-ass nigga Devin," and Devin shook his hand in greeting, I would be conveying the devaluation of the term between us and initiating a social contract between ourselves and the third party indicating that we hold each other as equals and use offensive colloquialisms in jest, or as a mockery of those who use such terms to dehumanize others, thereby devaluing the word's value to do harm and convey hate.

I don't, not at all. If I think a black dude is being an asshole, I'll call him a nigger. If I think a chinese person is being a dick, I'll call him a chink. If one of my fellow caucasoids being a douchebag, I'll call him a cracker. Really. It's no different from calling someone a shitfuck or a dumbass. And I do see Halanna's point: I went to one school that was 95% black (I was picked on everyday for being white at that one), and another that was about 45% black. The black kids called each other niggers all the time, and often time called white folk cracker (I was personally called snowflake, snowman, pork, whitebread, etc.), but the moment I called any of them a nigger, they were marching in the fucking streets about it. Hell, I've had people make jew jokes about me and I'm not even jewish (I used to have long, curly hair, aptly named jew curls). When I got my hair cut they called it my "post-Auschwitz haircut. My favorite was when some mexican kid said something about me not washing my jew hair, to which I replied "That's funny coming from a kid whose idea of taking a bath is swimming the rio grande." See, it works both ways. I don't have any "white guilt". I didn't beat any black people protesting in Montgomery, and I never stabbed a mexican dude for crossing the tracks.

People get bent out of shape too easily over words. Words have only as much power as you give them.

Oh well, this is starting to look like one of my rascist rants, so I'll stop here.

not trying to derail or hijack, this is just an interesting (to me) aside, brought on by tisonlyi's list of derogatory terms (and you forgot dinks for vietnamese and skinnys for somalis)....

the term Gook, derogatory term for a korean. its origin?

gook in korean means country. (it also can mean soup) the korean word for china is Choong kook - middle country (choong = middle). the word for korea is han gook - one country (han = one) and the term for america is mi (pronounced "me") gook - beautiful country (mi = beautiful)

so, supposedly.... during the korean war, they heard the americans (the mi gooks) were coming. when Joe landed on shore, the koreans rushed down to greet them, saying " MI GOOK? MI GOOK?" (american? american?) and the americans, international suave motherfuckers that we are, said "ok, you're a gook"

i don't know if that's true, but seriously, i heard that's where it came from.

and now back to the discussion.

It's probably already been used as a defense in a criminal case. He called me a nigger, so I killed him. It was only right. I just couldn't help myself. I'm not likely to re-offend, as long as no white boy cracker calls me that name again.

Lindy

This is really quite silly but do you have proof of such proclamations?

It's been well said by others already, but you can't remove an issue from it's context and also discuss it fairly. Rarely ever do I listen to the radio or watch the news but I certainly do watch movies and go out in public - I just can't so easily pretend to have my finger to the pulse of an entire race of people simply through whatever I've learned from the media and my own experiences.

There's obviously more to all of this than you care to think about. Why is that?

I'd like to interject here and say that this is a great topic, and a great discussion. As a recent graduate from a university where I took many classes where we were purportedly allowed to discuss any topic in a free and safe environment, race was the one topic that was firmly taboo, and dogmatic at that. I find it ironic that this is the probably the most important topic of our times (globalization and the fusion of cultures from around the world) and we are shackled by the events of a previous world. I do, however, think the discussion of race is a privilege that can't be shared by all. Someone who has no contact with those outside their own immediate culture and cocoon may be hindered by a world of stereotypes and fallacies from the a world that was full of isolation and is increasingly becoming irrelevant.

This is part of why I think the discussion of race is such a tricky subject. Not everybody knows exactly where they stand as far as understanding their own familiarity with people from different backgrounds and racess in comparison with others from their own in-group, and until people start opening up and are willing to even talk about race (let alone walking through the gauntlet of up-to-date political correctness), little progress can be made.

I've been impressed with the discussion so far. I'm certainly not an expert on racial relations (more knowledgeable about human psychology in general and genetics), though I appreciate discourse on a "taboo" subject.

For me, I think the difference between calling black people "niggers" or suchlike, versus, for example, people calling me a kike, or using other similar anti-Semitic language, is that while I might be rather offended, I am probably most likely to assume that the user of the slur is just ignorant; and based on my prior experience with such, I would be right a majority of the time. The majority of people in America who use anti-Semitic language or stereotypes don't even realize it's what they are: they're ignorant about Jews, and are usually very amenable to being corrected, and once educated, are generally ashamed at their own previous ignorance. You just don't find a large number of really hardcore, vitriolic, in-your-face anti-Semites in America these days, especially not in the cities.

On the other hand, racism is alive and well. Just because we have a black president doesn't mean that there aren't more racist fucks out there than we can imagine, who use the word "nigger" with casual indifference amongst their white friends, who are happy to laugh at the occasional "nigger" and "coon" jokes, who really, genuinely don't believe black people are equal to white people-- whatever the law may say-- and if you asked them, they would certainly not want their daughters to marry one of "them." These aren't people who would put on sheets and go out lynching, or even necessarily people who would snub a black co-worker at the office Christmas party. They are parlor racists, and they flourish the way that genteel anti-Semites flourished in 19th century Europe: which is to say, they infest the country like lice, bourgeoning everywhere.

But my point is this: I can feel free to take or leave being offended at anti-Semitic remarks in this country, because the US has little history of institutionalized anti-Semitism, and what exists today is far-flung and little tolerated. Most of us Jews have a certain remove from it.

But a black person in America lives at the ebb tide of a hideous history of institutionalized racism and subjugation, a tide that, if lessened, is nonetheless still washing around them. We white people can often little conceive this, because to us, it's history. It's something we read about in books, and watch documentaries about on the History channel. But to black folks, it's the stories they've heard growing up from their parents, grandparents, sometimes even great-grandparents. And it combines with the constant little annoying experiences of being given the eye by mall cops, or getting pulled over for DWB, losing out on jobs or opportunities to non-black people; or being presumed a drug user, or a thief, or a pursuer of white women; or being presumed good at sports, bad in the classroom, or presumed sexually exotic; or being treated condescendingly, patronizingly, or being told one should be "grateful." All of these things are routinely part of the lives of black people. They are wrong, and they are the little poison fruits that are borne on the ancient and hard-fought weed of racism. All that history, all that wrongness, all that poison is heard by black people in the utterance by non-blacks of the word "nigger."

Is it sensible that black people claim the word amongst themselves as a watchword? No. But what emerges from cultural trauma does not have to be rational. I don't pretend to understand the phenomenon, and I know my friends and I don't go around saying "Hey, what's up, kike?" On the other hand, I have a close friend in rabbinical school who tells shockingly offensive Holocaust jokes, and I laugh like hell at them, to just about the exact opposite degree that I would be furious if I ever heard a non-Jew crack those jokes.

I think this is one of those things about which we just have to respect each other's cultural peculiarities.

That said, I do think this discussion is a healthy thing!

If a racist fuck, snears at a black person from a position of power (say as part of a leering group) and throws in 'spearchucker' with added emphasis, then i'd say it's just as bad as 'nigger'.

It's the intention to insult and what is being insulted (the fibre of your being as well as your race's being vs you having poor vision with regard to "four eyes") that causes offence.

IMHO.

As for a continuum of offensiveness, it's always going to be dependent on the person.

Myself, I'm much more likely to be offended by 'polite' language said with a snear than any disposable, but insulting word.

Bravo, tisonlyi, Bravo.

Well said.

Even the snear, without the words.
It could be the body positioning,
and the hate vibes emanating off the hater,
that can, and do speak volumes.

I am of the opionion that only niggers say nigger these days. When ever I hear that word, I look around and its being said by the most ill mannered blacks. I have yet to here the word utterd by well behaved people of any color. I actually find the the whole controversy hilarious, as the world is pretty much only used by the very people who would go bannas if anyone else used it.

^^ Yes, yes, yes!! Only niggers say nigger with the insulting intentions. I am short of words for this thread because it is my experience that very many people don't have a legitimate feeling about the entire issue either way EXCEPT when things don't go their way.

Maybe we should all have a John Howard Griffin experience and then revisit this topic.

It may be that those looking from the outside can only apply an intellectualized analysis of the hurt, anger, degradation such words cause to the targeted groups. Then, on the other hand, outsiders may not understand the psychology of taking ownership of a pejorative term in order to lessen the meaning and denigration of a word.

Bottom line is that the original intent of the word was to designate a certain group of people, and by association remove them from the circle of humanity (it was easier to enslave someone who you didn't believe was human). It continued after slavery because people still wanted to believe that former slaves were still less than human, less American, so deserved less than equal treatment.

As a social experiment, the descendants of slaves/former slaves should start pasting confederate flags in their car windows and joining KKK organizations.

Neither of you have been in the south, then.





Now, with regards to the topic at hand, it is amazing to me how people want to completely ignore context.


Nigger, the word, comes from the Portuguese word negro. The Portuguese ran the slave trade, so there is no question as to how the word nigger entered the English language. It was a word used to dehumanize African slaves. Dehumanize often in quite literal ways, such as not counting as a full person in the census, etc. As slavery came to pass, racists clang on to the word to reaffirm the status of less than human of blacks in society.
Eventually, blacks started coopting the word, as many discriminated groups do, as a way of empowering themselves.


Now, a word by itself cannot offend anyone. You say nigger to a poor Angolan boy who never heard it before and he wont care. But the fact is that the word is still being used with the intent to offend and dehumanize others in the US. The fact that it is sometimes used in a non-offensive or non-aggressive manner doesn't change that fact. When a white person uses the word nigger as an insult against a black person, that white person is not simply using the word as any other insult, but is using it precisely because of the historical context of the use of that word.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

The difference between calling someone a dumbass and someone a nigger is that nigger is only offensive because it comes with quite a few centuries worth of slavery and dehumanization. Nigger as a word makes no reference to someone's mental ability (like dumbass) or anything else. There is no way nigger can be used with the intent to offend and not be racist, because that is really all there is to the word: a word that contains the connotation that blacks are less than human.

Before you come back with the "but blacks use it too" argument, the key difference is that blacks have tried to coopt the word to lessen its blow, and whenever they use it on each other, nigger is never the "punchline" of an insult. They never yell "nigger" in isolation at each other, nor will you hear "you're a nigger" said in that way.

This caused me to laugh out loud. I'm presuming you did this intentionally, but if not...

Which literally means "black."

Among other things, but it also means dark or shadowy. Which again points to the importance of context, so I don't get why you are laughing out loud.

Let me go even further here: In Brazil and Lusophone Africa, the word Negro is actually the preferred term of reference for blacks as an ethnic group. That is so not because of some magical quality of the word, but because of historical context. Preto (which means Black too, but is more used on day to day life to refer to the color) was the word with the dehumanizing context in Brazil, Angola and elsewhere, so "preto" is the offensive reference term over there, and not negro.

So much so that the "Black Consciousness Movement" from South Africa was translated as Movimento da Consciencia Negra in Brazil.


So all of this really just reinforces my previous point, and as such I don't see what is so funny about it.

Errr, dippin, In my earlier post, I said it was my experience. The black community DO use the word nigger (historical content et al) to dehumanize and INSULT each other. Do some of the basest of the white community do this too? Of course they do ...

I am in the capital city of NC and I have little contact with the outskirts of the rural areas. Here, my experience of racial slurs is they are often used by blacks against blacks themselves. A black person will readily call a white person, "my nigga" in friendly terms and insult a fellow black person WITH THE SAME DAMN WORD!!

I have never seen any situation where black people used nigger as the insult itself. Part of sentences that are used in confrontations, yes, but Ive never seen or can imagine a situation where a black person simply yells "nigger" to another, or simply says "you're a nigger."

In any case, again context means the world. A black person using that word will never have the same meaning as a white person. In any case, the fact that black people have appropriated the word among themselves is really not enough to make the original intent of the word non-racist.

it's been said in some capacity already, but much of the N-word is about reappropration of language. It happened in the gay community as well.

Dyke and faggot were derogatory labels applied to homosexual women and men respectively. The gay community have reappropriated these words completely. Now it is so common, many don't even think of the original sense of the word. We talk about dyke culture, dyke moms, etc. They say things like, "I'm meeting a fag friend of mine for dinner." They took the negative power directed at them, and they made it their own.

The problem with nigger is that the history is longer and more ingrained on the wider culture, and the connotation is far heavier. But this doesn't mean that black culture hasn't reappropriated the word for its own use; it's just that the word remains largely political.

Because you were saying how wrong it was for people from Portugal to call them black, then you refer to them as blacks four times after that. I understand the point of context, and agree, the word carries a massive amount of weight in one region of the world while the same word translated is considered the politically correct term. When you go around the world and that same explosive word has wildly varying levels of connotations, it reaches a level of absurdity. I'm not sure if that diminishes the edge it has in America because, as stated, the context, but understanding a more encompassing view on its history puts it in perspective somewhat.

Reclaiming words takes away some of the negative power. Remember in the 90's when it was suddenly cool for women to wear shirts and jewelry with "bitch" on it? That was women deciding that if people were going to call them "bitch," then they would too, because whatever they were they were proud of it.

I can't stop you from calling me a dyke, but I can take the word and make it into something to be proud of. I'm a dyke! I fuck women! I'm BRILLIANT. Dykes are awesome!"

You eventually have to stop fighting ideology by asking people to stop calling you "bad words." You eventually need to change the connotation of the words themselves by embracing them. Seems crazy, but look how well it's done with the queer-fag-dyke community.

damn, i wanna be a dyke.

In the US, black has been one of the acceptable terms. In Brazil, the Azores, etc. Negro is one of the acceptable words. It's been that way not because of some magic quality of the sound, but because of how it's been used historically. I really don't see how you can miss that when the point is precisely that historical context matters. Words don't have power by themselves, it is the social context that gives them their meaning.

See, the word "dyke" can now have positive meaning too!

(mind you, I'm not really a lesbian. I'm a bi-slut, another reclaimed word.)

when did it have a negative meaning? really, i'm 40 fucking years old, all my life i thought dyke just meant lesbian.

As Wiki suggests:
I've just heard too many men use the word "dyke" in an intensely negative way.

Also, I wouldn't be called anything worse than "caker" or "heathen" for my ethnic/religious background. There are worse words to call someone, of course, but it's just an example I can directly relate to.

I believe the politically correct term this year is 'thug' when referring to African American degenerates.

ok, so this is interesting.

what if people took an adjective, say for example "tall" and started using it pejoratively.

that movie was tall. don't be so tall. that chick is so tall.


would all the tall people suddenly be offended?

*i don't mean to mesh this thread with the "that's so gay" thread or hijack this thread.

If "tall" was something that was regarded as something "inferior to standard" then maybe. But yes, we should probably move over to "That's So Gay" if we want to continue.

Absolutely. You can't say words are just words and that people need to chill. That's bullshit. Words have meanings and people need to consider others' experiences before they fling them around.

Utilizing these slurs inadvertently causes others to continue using them. ("Well, if Joe uses it, I can too.") Let's expand our vocabulary and find words that mean what we want to say and utilize those instead.

Labels suck. Using slurs as labels and keeping them in perpetual motion is even worse.

damn right! part of the reason why i'm glad you're back :D

ive been subjected to labels and racist comments, so have my family members, and my parents when they migrated to australia, who were one of the first ethics in the area. we were called "wogs" and "dago's", and still do, thought not to the extent when my parents first stepped foot in the early seventies.

I honestly don't get what your saying here. It's alright for a black person to say something like ... "that motherfucking nigger better watch his tongue" than it is for a white person? What, history makes it alright? Since when do two wrongs make a right, or two same kinds of infractions are wrong on different levels? The sentence very clearly expresses distaste in the person who is employing the use of the word. Are you saying that a white person saying the exact same thing with the exact same inflection carries heavier meaning?

The term doesn't exist in isolation. It has centuries of meaning behind it. Yes, a white person saying it carries heavier meaning than a black person.

^^ Dude, I'm sorry but I may have mentioned earlier I am illiterate.

If it doesn't exist in isolation then wouldn't that mean it's not alright to say it at all? Black or white?

First of all, notice that the n word, by itself, is not the insult there. That in the first place makes it different, and makes it explicit that the usage is completely different.

The second difference is that a black person appropriating that term to refer to another one, and using it in that entirely different context, has a different meaning than a white person using the n word as the insult itself, a word that is only offensive because of its history of being used by whites to deny the basic humanity of blacks. In one instance it is a throwaway insult as appropriated by those who it is normally used against, in the other it is an insult that has been systematically used for centuries to dehumanize an entire group of people.

But, if a homosexual man calls a heterosexual (as far as we know) man a faggot, in anger, then the "homosexual community" gets all in an uproar. :confused:

Which brings me to a question. If a black celebrity were to call a caucasian celebrity a nigger, in anger, do you think the "black community" would be upset? Would it bother you (you=TFP members)?

Now another question.

I was acquainted with a caucasian man that was very fond of using the phrase "no to bad for a white man/woman" For example, his wife would cook dinner, and after he was done eating, he would say "Mmmm, not to bad, for a white woman." I heard this so much, in fact, that I found myself using the phrase occasionally. So my question is, would this be offensive in mixed racial company, or to the overly PC?

The black community as a whole might not be upset, but there are quite a few that would agree with me that nobody should be using it. These types of slurs need to be erased from our culture. I know I don't speak for all TFPers, but it bothers me immensely and it SHOULD bother the entire black community. The problem is that it's been accepted as a way to poke fun at one another, or put down others even within the black community. In order to move on from stereotypes and labeling, those words have to go.

Sigh. Idealism isn't bliss.

Dippin, I can't help but think that you've never been in a mostly black, lower class setting. Black people are among the MOST rascist people you will ever meet. I can't tell you how many times I've heard black people make fun of other black people for being "too dark". Comments like, "Go back to africa nigga" or "That bitch be so dark she nasty", etc. So it's not just a case of black people trying to remove some of the hurt from the word.

Im from Brazil and I live in Atlanta, and I have to go pretty much everywhere as my job in a public policy evaluation company requires, so I think you assumed wrong.

No doubt there is racism in the African American community. But that neither justifies or softens white racism.

Is that what you feel we might be doing? Justifying racism of ANY sort? This is the 21st century and I shall never tire of saying that. All things are equal (at least when it comes to this case) and white CANNOT POSSIBLY be worse than black racism.

what is the result of white racism and of black racism, and how widespread is each? How many whites have been killed, wrongfully convicted, fired or denied raises by the color of their skin?

The result of white racism is greater than that of black racism. This is in the past. Not anymore though. I believe we now live in a world of equal opportunity.

Now, the effect of black racism (>>against fellow blacks) is still ongoing. In fact, it has been going on for so long that it's going to be unique in itself. I don't mean it will rival the past atrocities committed by the racists against blacks, I don't think it is possible ... but it is/will be distastefully monumental.

the idea that racism is a thing of the past is a total myth not borne out of any evidence. Take the fact that even though drug usage across races is virtually the same, blacks are about 2.8 to 5.5 times more likely to be arrested and given jail time for it (we are talking simple possession, not possession with intent to distribute or anything like that.).

Take the fact that virtually every case of unwarranted police shootings had African American victims, and that black suspects are more than 6 times more likely to be killed by the police than white suspects, and that almost every major metropolitan area in the nation has had a recent case where the police killed unarmed, passive African Americans (including a case in Georgia where a 92 year old woman was shot and then framed by cops in order to avoid blame). Or how about the fact that even when controlling for education levels, industry type, education and experience blacks still experience higher unemployment levels and lower income? How about the "controversy" over the removal of the confederate flag from the Georgia state flag?


Just because the era of Jim Crow has ended, it doesn't mean that racism has.

Is this a joke? I don't mean to be rude, but that's a ridiculous idea.

While this thread has gone far off topic, I'd appreciate it if you could explain what this means as I can't make heads or tails of it. What are you talking about?

Also, leaving race out of the matter entirely, one doesn't have to look to hard to see significant differences in basic level opportunities between the well off and the poor. The idea that we live in a world of entirely equal opportunity is baseless and nonsensical at best.

Dip, I stand corrected. But let me ask you: Have you lived in such a setting? In America I mean; I assume Brazil has an entirely different culture. While racism does still exist, within ALL races, I think alot of it is imagined. I know when I was in Life Skills Center (ghetto enough for ya? :D), alot of the black kids complained about not being able to get jobs because they're poor and black, and how they can't afford decent houses, etc., yet most had cell phones, 200 hundred dollar pairs of shoes, and pants and shirts that cost more than my monthly grocery bill, not to mention whatever they spent on drugs, gas, cars, etc. My problem overall isn't really with black people, it's with shiftless, lazy, ignorant, loud, obnoxious, dumbasses; I see that alot in my neighborhood (mostly black; some poor whites too).

It has.

>>LINK<<

As I said, I currently reside in Atlanta, one of the few American metro areas where African Americans are a majority.