Hektore

I've had some cool teachers in my life - the kind who could joke with you, give and take a little abuse (all in good fun), actually teach and still manage to always be in control of the class. Now, I got to thinking about the types of abuse they throw around, one of them (pertinent to myself being of the visually impaired persuasion) is four-eyes. Now, I've never really been upset with someone calling me 'four-eyes'. I wear glasses, I don't have any control over it, it's just biology. I can, however, understand how it would bother some people. But, if a teacher called another student four-eyes in a manner that could only be construed as 'joking', nobody would really care. If that same teacher dropped an N-Bomb though jokingly...well I don't think I need to lay it out for you.

So, I was wondering, why do we bandwagon around the offensiveness of ethnic slurs, particularly the word 'nigger'?

I actually had like a 10 minute debate with myself whether or not to write it out anywhere or just post it as 'the n-word'. Which is what I want to look at, why is that so strongly ingrained in my head. I'm a white person and as such I shouldn't, under any circumstances, let the word pass my lips even to discuss it. I don't understand this, I mean even for the sake of discussion, I'm not calling anyone a nigger, ever. I wouldn't do that. I would call someone four-eyes, jokingly, though. It certainly isn't outside the realm of logical possibility to use, not just nigger but any ethnic slur, jokingly. It seems like with this one class of words it isn't possible to joke with them in actuality. Why not? I can't see any reason.

This led me to think about why we don't say certain words, what about them makes them 'unspeakable'. The only thing I can come up with is the injuriousness of the word. But, how do we measure that, or decide where the lines are. For example, the characteristic that you're insulting seems to matter most. Four eyes is less offensive than camel jockey - so it isn't on biology, or more appropriately things people cannot control about themselves. Not only that, it seems that most of us would agree some racial slurs are worse than others (see: gringo vs. wetback), at least in how they make us feel, if not intellectually. Someone wants to call me a gringo (they have in fact, in Mexico at that), I don't give a shit.

Maybe that's the key, it's all in how offended the receiver is? I don't buy that, because it's entirely possible for say, an Italian with glasses to be more offended by four-eyes than wop. But the former would be better tolerated than the latter by the rest of us, even if that isn't the case for the individual. Maybe it's about the past use of the word? For example, nigger has been used to inflict more damage over the course of history (at least in America) therefore it's the most despised here. I don't see why that is important either, the idea that a word being used more times to insult someone makes the word somehow, more insulting makes no sense to me.

It seems somehow that we've all managed to agree with each other that this is the way things are. To quote Douglas Adams: "...it’s just one of those things that crept into being and once that loop gets going it’s very, very powerful." I'd like to question why that is though, TFPers. Why is it, that we ring-fence around the idea the ethnic slurs are so much more offensive and despicable that other sorts of slurs?

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thespian86

I was giving a speech in high school (pres) when some little freshman punk in the front of the auditorium said "stupid fucking kike".

To which I responded instantly with, "you forgot rich, handsome, and popular asshole" to which everyone laughed and I got slapped on the wrist by administration. I don't really care; someone willing to generalize me to the point of referring to me only by the religious background I was literally born into is obviously an ignorant asshole. It doesn't feel like justification for me, I just really don't care.

I think a lot of it has to do with the horrors that have gone on in the world, especially the western world, that involve racial discrimination. So to have someone say something that encourages said horrors is what people get bent out of shape about. Understandably. I punched a guy who told me the holocaust was the second best thing the germans ever did after BMW. I also make very risque jokes involving race and sexual preference in a very flat and straight way; which could come across as racist/homophobic when really it's satirical.

I think it comes down to intention and reception. It's wrong if either of those things aren't positive.

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dlish

powerful images will, especially the first one.

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Willravel

Yeah, I had to take it in a bit before posting it.

I get that name-calling really isn't all that appropriate whether the name is four-eyes or ni**er*, but the historical context does speak to the power each name has.

essendoubleop

So then at what point does it become appropriate to "let go?" Or will it forever be attached to black people? And only black people in America and the Western world?

Glory's Sun

the word nigger in and of itself isn't offensive.. it's how you use it.

For instance, if I said: Gun Owners are the new niggers of society, it's not offensive. It's simply using the word to relate to a disparaged subsection of society.

Now if I walk up to a black man or woman and yell out Nigger, then obviously it would be seen as offensive.

Willravel

You can't guarantee that. Some people might very well find that offensive.

Glory's Sun

people are going to be offended by what they want to be offended by. if they can't see the difference then I shall get offended by their stupidity!

some people only focus on one word and only focus on one definition of that word.. that's not my fault.. it's theirs.

essendoubleop

I think that's too nuanced to apply to society in general. As soon as that word goes off (or something similar sounding like "niggardly") peoples ears shoot up. It's definitely one of those better safe than sorry things where it's better to simply not say it, then to be dragged into confrontation with someone who may not understand.

Plan9

Nah, let's perpetuate all our racist heritage through words.

That's the right thing to do.

/progress

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lostgirl

I cringe when I hear (or read) the n word. I could never use it in any way. Looking at those pictures makes me sad and it turns my stomach to think of these atrocities.

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Glory's Sun

while I tend to agree, are you saying we shouldn't challenge people to think and understand that words have more than one meaning and context?

Obviously, it's a word that I don't use personally or that should be used in it's racial context when dealing with black people, but it seems a bit odd to me that things have become so PC that black, white, yellow etc don't even know the basis of words other than what it means to their subset of society.

Willravel

On the other hand, it might be really stupid to use the word in mixed company regardless of the context, so it's their decision as to whether or not to be offended by what's likely a very bad decision in your choice of words.

The word was born of pure hate and speaks back to a time when black people (among others) were regarded and treated as less than human, regardless of how you try to twist it into something else. People aren't going to forget that for a very, very long time.

If you don't believe me, work in the hypothetical sentence you just posted into a conversation with a few black people. Gauge their reactions.

Glory's Sun

I have conversations with black people every day.. most of whom make fun of the word and how everyone is scared of it.. the ones I hang out with have no problem with me saying "What up Nigga?"

Granted, I completely understand what you and the others are saying, I'm merely just pointing out that there are uses for it other than a hate or racial slur.

Daniel_

Nigger is an interesting word.

Until the last generation, it was used throughout the British Empire to mean "anyone not Caucasian". It was for people of sub-Saharan African descent, Arabs, Mongols, Chinese, etc etc.

In more recent times it has come to mean only "black" people with some degree of sub-Saharan descent.

The perceived objectionability of the word nigger (when used by anyone other than one black person to another) has risen dramatically even in my lifetime - in the 1970's it was a bad word, undoubtedly, but not the nuclear option it is now. Saying nigger was like saying "hell" or "shit" these days - you'd get slammed, but you wouldn't be pilloried as you might today.

I don't know why - maybe it's a "tide in the affairs of man".

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Willravel

There certainly are, but as white people it's dangerous for us to venture down those avenues, especially in mixed company.

Hektore

Willravel: I don't understand the atrocity that was slavery. When I say that I mean that I know it was bad(undestatement much?), what I mean is it was awful in a way that to me is just incomprehensible.

So was the holocaust (not Godwinned, it's relevant), but I don't think the blowback from 'kike' in a crowded would even come close to matching the insanity that would follow 'nigger'.

These words exist and are used for identical purposes, but some are perceived to be more offensive, more inflammatory. Why is that?

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Halanna

It appears to me that it's only offensive depending on the ethnicity of the speaker.

African Americans (AA's cause I'm too lazy to type) call each other the N word all the time. I've overheard it in the Wal-Mart parking lot, in popular songs by AA artists, at the shop where my husband works and in movies where nary a protest is heard.

AA's can also call Hispanics or Latin Americans by the N word as a form of greeting.

Hispanics call each other Spic, can call AA's Spic as a form of greeting and for some odd reason call each other the N word.

AA's and Hispanics can call anyone not AA or Hispanic whitey, white boy, cracker, red neck and are somehow given a pass and it's ok.

The only people not allowed to call anyone any ethnic name is a person who is white. Then the protests start, the ACLU becomes involved, people lose their jobs, if anything happens in conjunction with an ethnic slur then it's a hate crime.

I never, whether in public or my husband's work environment hear white people use ethnic slurs. I only hear AA's and Hispanics and other minorities using them.

There is no denying that any ethnic slur is offensive and rude. But really, if it's so offensive and rude, then those very people who find it offensive and rude should stop using it in their everyday language and toward one another. It seems more a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

Willravel

I don't really know how to compare the slave trade to the holocaust. I've probably written and deleted ten responses to your post without success. I think the key lies in the act of enslavement, but I'm having trouble articulating how it's relevant to the difference between ni**er in the US and something like kike in Europe. Maybe it's because I'm not even convinced that they'd result in such different responses. If I heard "kike", I'd likely respond in a similar way as if I were to hear "ni**er".

squeeeb

a question about that second picture.

am i missing something, am i not seeing something? its people standing in a farm doing farm work. why is that powerful or cringe inducing?

do these affect you in any way? (other than the white chick wearing a wool hat. WTF?)

http://www.gracharity.com/images/09/...hotos/Farm.JPG

LIFE: Men and women working in the field. - Hosted by Google

i understand black people were slaves and made to pick cotton, so you see a black person standing in a cotton field and think "that is horrible" but aren't you putting something into the picture that isn't there?

i am not trying to be funny or play devils advocate or anything. i am serious. its just a picture of people standing in a field. this doesn't bother me at all. i take it for what is portrayed. not for what it might mean or symbolize. for all i know, that was a picture of a cotton farmer and his wife standing with him.

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Willravel

If they try to stop picking cotton, they will be beaten by their owner. If they try to leave, they will either have to go hundreds of miles being chased or will be caught, beaten and/or killed. That's their entire life, from the day they can pick cotton until the day they're too old or sick to pick cotton.

Manic_Skafe

Are we due for one of these threads already?

Location and historical context.


How scientific.

History_of_the_United_States

Who'd have thought it was really so simple.

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squeeeb

that sounds like the life of a slave, which is detestable, i'm not denying that.

i don't think that when i see the picture. i see people standing in a field. i don't know the context of that picture. if they had chains on and the guy didn't have a shirt on, or if there was a white guy with a whip in the picture, i would feel outrage. people standing around in a field working doesn't bother me.

i cannot find it, but there is a rather famous (i think) Time/Life picture of a black man, shirtless, chained to a tree, having been whipped and beaten to death. THAT disturbs me and bothers me and makes me cringe.

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Willravel

We'll probably get a few more before someone says something deeply offensive and we (white people) all put our unexplainable fascination/obsession with black people and culture on the back burner for a while.

mixedmedia

I don't have a problem with typing the word 'nigger' when it's the word that needs to be used to talk about its usage or, for instance, to mention the Patti Smith song, Rock and Roll Nigger. I wouldn't know how to react to gucci's use of the word without knowing exactly what he means...I have an idea, but I'm not sure how accurate it is.

For me, I think the use comes down to common sense. Yes, black people use the term to refer to themselves and others, but it is usually akin to the way women will refer to each other as 'bitch.' For a man that she is not acquainted with to walk up and say, 'hey, bitch' the word would likely garner a different reaction. And understandably so. It's an old saw by now, but it is a way of reclaiming the word in a comradely way (with an exception made for both words used during conflict, of course).

I think the difference between the words 'four-eyes' and 'nigger' is, pretty plainly, the vitriolic hate that lies behind the use of one the words. To my knowledge, no one has been lynched in American history for needing glasses. As for myself personally, I was raised around people who used the word in a disrespectful way and I have always known, from a very young age without having to give it much thought, that it was ugly, base and ignorant. I'm thankful that my parents were among that first generation of Southerners who rejected racism and all of its thoughtless traditions en masse as an acceptable way to talk and think. Sometimes I think it's because people of subsequent generations have no practical basis for understanding how commonly the word was used just a few short decades ago (still is in some places) that they don't understand the incendiary quality of that word in particular. I'm only 43-years-old - hardly old - and I remember it.

What I really don't understand when I hear white people express consternation about not being able to use the word (as if it is not fair), is why - why do you want to use the word? There is no practical, congenial way in which to use it if you are not in a position to be comradely. So why do you care?

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squeeeb

i don't get it either. i don't care if i can use the word or not, i don't know when i would ever need to use it or how i would use it. even if i could, i would not go up to a friend and say "what up nigga?"

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tisonlyi

Bad words or gestures used with venom attack you for something you are, something you're related to or something you've done.

Four eyes = personally, physically offensive.
Cunt = personally offensive due to an unwelcome behaviour.

Bastard (traditional) = Calls into question the sexual morality of your mother, her relationship with your father and your relationship with your entire family.

Nigger/*Monkeynoises*/Gollywog/Paki/Rag head/Gook/Spic etc = Categorise, denigrate, deride and degrade you, any and all characteristics about you, anything you do or have done as well as every one of those things directed against all of your family, ancestors, friends and their ancestors back into antiquity and beyond. Purely as a function of your skintone and/or culture.

Any insults, used with venom, have a range. The range for racist abuse (not just the words, the abuse, the venom is necessary as well) is way off the chart with regard to something personal and physical, like four-eyes.

Got that, you four-eyed honky?

---------- Post added at 10:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

And, growing up and existing in a some well-mixed areas, those racial bad words could be thrown around, without venom, and they're fine.

Like "gay" went from an insult to a positive statement of pride (with a little reaction at the moment that will pass), people take back bad words and deprive them of their power.

In a way, lifting the word up to its status as "unspeakable" maintains and even inreases its power and the power of the idiots who would use it as invective.

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Cynthetiq

isn't that the revelation of Richard Pryor once he got to Africa?

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Halanna

It doesn't have to be a scientitic study. Listen to radio? Watch movies? Go out in public? Watch the news? Read the newspaper? It's all right there. Maybe because I live in Central Florida it's more prevelent but it is everywhere, everyday where I live.

I'm citing my experiences today, now - not necessarily the history of the United States.

It is, in my opinion, that simple. If a particular group of people, be it ethnic or otherwise want to proclaim that certain words are offensive and derogatory than they should stop using those certain words themselves in any context. I tell you the word Apple is offensive and a slur. You can't say it! How could you! Don't you dare! But I run around calling all my friends Apples, my co-worker, "Hey there Apple" and a stranger on the street, "Sup Apple".

If you don't like the word, don't use it. It is that simple.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion only. No apples were harmed in making this statement, nor are any slights to be perceived to any fruit, race or gender.

ring

Lenny Bruce tried.

Here is Dustin Hoffman portraying Lenny.

Charlatan

But you can't just pull something like this out of historical context. Today's experiences is neccessarily informed by that history.


Nigger. It's just a word but the mean of words to shift over time. Yes, I can use the word in it's correct dictionary definition but why bother. That definition has since been tainted with all the negativity that represents White oppression of Blacks. Why carry that baggage around? Yes, it has been reclaimed in certain cultural circles. The idea being that if I am black and use it, it will defang the word.

In the end, it's an offensive word. There are plenty of them and they are offensive for a reason. Try using words like, Cunt, Fuck, Mother Fucker, etc. in mixed company (for example with your Grandmother). You will see that these words carry meanings that are offensive to some (perhaps many). To use them in such a way shows, at best, a laziness in your language. It goes downhill from there.

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Hektore

I like where the video ring posted is going, and it illustrates kind of what I was thinking.

Let me use the (sort of) reverse word here: Cracker.

Now, As I understand it, cracker doesn't have a damn thing to do with saltines. It's an attempt to turn the bigotry and domination of slavery on it's head. It refers to the 'whip crackers' of slavery. It's an insult against the dominating, exploiting, power mongering WASPy types. I guess the idea is to call attention to our disgusting past, to show us for who we are, or at least how were and are viewed now.

There should be at least as much vitriol surrounding it as there is the word nigger, it grows out of the same hatred and intolerance and history. But us white folk don't really seem to care about it. As long as we don't care, as long as anyone doesn't care that the word is being used to describe them, to attack them then it doesn't have any power.

Why can't we just let it go?

So, you're saying that ethnic slurs attack the entire history of that ethnic group, but four-eyes only attack the particular individual you're saying it to? Ok, but what about the discrepency between the treatment of ethnic slurs for different groups, or say other slurs for blacks, lots of people would say nigger is the worst one, but take boogey or spearchucker, same thing - not as highly inflammatory, in my perception.

If you dropped all the words mentioned so far on a list and asked people to rate them in order from least offensive to most offensive, which is going to be at the top, which at the bottom? I would bet a our lists would all look very similar, it's an emotional response, but why is that so ruling. Really there isn't any difference so far as I can see but they're treated that way.

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ASU2003

Nothing offends me. It's their problem if they are offended by some label. What happened in the past is history, not something to be used against people today. And when it comes to comedy, nothing is off limits. Nothing should be censored.

Internet Rule #42: Nothing is sacred.

In real life, people should respect one another and have class. If you need to use labels to put someone else down, they have lost and are pathetic.

Martian

Words have the power we give them. Nigger is an offensive word because it is deemed to be so.

The other side is that I really don't see a context where one can use nigger in a positive way. This makes it a useless word to me.

I have no problem with saying/typing/hearing the word nigger, because I refuse to be afraid of a word. At the same time, I have no reason to ever use it, because I refuse to judge someone based on their melanin content.

I'm not a big smiley user. Do we have one for shrugged shoulders?

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mixedmedia

I see where you're going and it's cool. Problem is, most people do not approach the issue with the same spirit as Lenny Bruce. What I see behind a lot of these arguments is resentment. And it goes a lot deeper than just a word. It's the spirit (benevolence) that defuses the word of its power.

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MSD

Devaluation through dilution. Some of my black friends and I refer to each other as "my nigga" because among my closest friends and our acquaintances, we're pretty much a microcosm of the colorblind society that's the supposed ideal. Between us, these words are just words and have lost their capacity to do harm. Among the black community and other minority groups, "nigger" has been devalued and is not harmful because members of the group understand the intention of the speaker. If, for example, I were to walk down the street with my friend Devin and I called a passerby a nigger, there is no history, no social contract between me and him, no evidence that I meant no harm by it, and he would have every right to be offended. If a random passerby called Devin a nigger with no prior evidence of a social contract and common understanding, Devin would have a right to be offended and suspicious of the perpetrator. If I, the giant white guy, went up to a friend and said "I'm Ian, this is my real-ass nigga Devin," and Devin shook his hand in greeting, I would be conveying the devaluation of the term between us and initiating a social contract between ourselves and the third party indicating that we hold each other as equals and use offensive colloquialisms in jest, or as a mockery of those who use such terms to dehumanize others, thereby devaluing the word's value to do harm and convey hate.

FelixP

I don't, not at all. If I think a black dude is being an asshole, I'll call him a nigger. If I think a chinese person is being a dick, I'll call him a chink. If one of my fellow caucasoids being a douchebag, I'll call him a cracker. Really. It's no different from calling someone a shitfuck or a dumbass. And I do see Halanna's point: I went to one school that was 95% black (I was picked on everyday for being white at that one), and another that was about 45% black. The black kids called each other niggers all the time, and often time called white folk cracker (I was personally called snowflake, snowman, pork, whitebread, etc.), but the moment I called any of them a nigger, they were marching in the fucking streets about it. Hell, I've had people make jew jokes about me and I'm not even jewish (I used to have long, curly hair, aptly named jew curls). When I got my hair cut they called it my "post-Auschwitz haircut. My favorite was when some mexican kid said something about me not washing my jew hair, to which I replied "That's funny coming from a kid whose idea of taking a bath is swimming the rio grande." See, it works both ways. I don't have any "white guilt". I didn't beat any black people protesting in Montgomery, and I never stabbed a mexican dude for crossing the tracks.

People get bent out of shape too easily over words. Words have only as much power as you give them.

Oh well, this is starting to look like one of my rascist rants, so I'll stop here.

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squeeeb

not trying to derail or hijack, this is just an interesting (to me) aside, brought on by tisonlyi's list of derogatory terms (and you forgot dinks for vietnamese and skinnys for somalis)....

the term Gook, derogatory term for a korean. its origin?

gook in korean means country. (it also can mean soup) the korean word for china is Choong kook - middle country (choong = middle). the word for korea is han gook - one country (han = one) and the term for america is mi (pronounced "me") gook - beautiful country (mi = beautiful)

so, supposedly.... during the korean war, they heard the americans (the mi gooks) were coming. when Joe landed on shore, the koreans rushed down to greet them, saying " MI GOOK? MI GOOK?" (american? american?) and the americans, international suave motherfuckers that we are, said "ok, you're a gook"

i don't know if that's true, but seriously, i heard that's where it came from.

and now back to the discussion.

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Lindy

It's probably already been used as a defense in a criminal case. He called me a nigger, so I killed him. It was only right. I just couldn't help myself. I'm not likely to re-offend, as long as no white boy cracker calls me that name again.

Lindy