Ask a Muslim...
 

its pretty simple. Ask me any questions you like about Islam, islamic culture, practice, language, arabic lifetyle, beliefs and anything else that may be related to islam.

I'll do my best to answer them. i am by no means the be all and end all of Islamic knowledge or islamic jurispudence, but i do know a bit, since i grew up in a fairly conservative lebanese muslim household in suburban Sydney.
i dont profess to know it all, but if i don't know, i have plenty of 'Brains Trust' within the family that i can draw upon. so i'll try my best to answer all questions honestly.

Naturally, every muslim experience is unique and different. so i may see things different to others. Ill give my experience a australian lebanese youth growing up in Sydney, but i'll also draw from th last few years of living and working in the middle east. For those few other muslim members here, please feel free to chime in by answering or even asking questions.

so ask away. my only request is that this thread stays civil.

Thanks for taking this on!

What are the basics in the Qur'an about the status of Women?

Yes, this is a great idea.

How does the Muslim view of non-Muslims compare to, say, the Jewish view of Gentiles and the Christian view of non-Christians?

as a muslim, why do you, not only own, but wear a New York Yankees hat? Is this a statement that you are aligning yourself with the most despicable organization in all of sport?

as a muslim, it doesnt really matter what sport or team i follow. I bought a NY Yankees hat because it was comfortable, and not for any political reason. it could have been worse...chicago cubs :D

as a muslim i harbour no malice towards anyone, muslim or otherwise. in fact i have many great american friends who happen to be great people. i tend not to let politics get involved in my personal relationships.

am i reading between the lines, you're asking why some muslims may think that NYC is the centre of all Evil?

haha no.. I just hate the fucking yankees :D

the muslim view of non-muslims is very similar to the way christians view non-christians.

the general belief that God (Allah in arabic) sent prophets to guide their people, but that the message was corrupted by the people and people strayed from the true path. the classic and well known example is the Story of Moses and Aaron. hence, Judaism and Christianity were teaching the true path. The message of the 'Oneness of God'

Islam is viewed by muslims as the only remaining unadulterated message. Islam, like Christianity but unlike Judaism mentions heaven and hell in its holy text, the Qur'an. without getting into minor details, those that followed the path of the 'Oneness of God' will go to heaven, and those that didnt will go to hell.

not sure if you need me to expand, but i can give some more detail if you like.

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please dont use vulgar language in this thread. God, G-D, Allah, Yahweh may strike you down or something :D

do you hate them more or less than the Cubs?

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this is a huge question on which thousands upon thousands of books have been written about over the past 50 years which i can not do justice. this topic is so vast, i dont know where to start.

is there any particular issues, topic or questions that you wanted addressed?

Is your Muslim-ness (what's the Muslim version of Christianity?) more important to you culturally or religiously?

What do you feel would have attracted you to the Muslim beliefs if you had not been raised Muslim?

Have you ever had a period of rebellion (common among Christian-raised teens and 20-somethings...some come back, some don't) against your beliefs?

I figured :D

When I hear these horrible stories about blown-up girls' schools and stonings I assume that the perpetrators are twisting basic guidelines for domestic roles and morals but then I really have no idea. I guess I'm asking: what are the basic tenets that inspire the extremists against education and equality for women?

And, surely there are some positive passages about the role or status of women in the basic tenets but we never hear them. What are they?

At what point does the Muslim faith diverge from the other Abrahamic faiths? Is it past the time of Jesus? Or does the schism happen earlier?

i think a bit of both. as i mentioned earlier, i grew up in a conservative lebanese family. in saying that, we were still extremely liberal in that we had anglo australian friends (something that isnt very common), i was and still involved in swimming and sport in general, but in principle we still practiced all the islamic rituals on a daily basis. this includes the 5 daily prayers, fasting ramadan, attending friday prayers, giving zakat (charity) etc. so from a young age, i was affected religiously i'd say.

from the age of 24 onwards, and after i left my parents house, it became more important culturally. i guess you could say that i wasnt within the realm of influence of my family and i started to think and see as an individual. not that i disagree with my family, but i made my own choices as an adult.


i was always interested in human rights and equality. when i stumbled upon Malcolm X's autobiography in the 90's, i never stopped being a fan. Had i not been a muslim at the time, his ideas and ideals would have at least made me consider becoming one. His theory of not turning the other cheek was although militant, but sound. His story is a remarkable one.

you could say from the age of 24 till now (31) i have been on this stage of rebellion. The popular islamic idea that faith is dynamic and is never static. Faith rises and wanes in relation to the amount of islamic practises and rituals you do.

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depends where you look at it really. islam sees the Jews diverge first with the rejection of Jesus as an imposter, and then with the Christians rejecting Jesus as a mortal, thus elevating him to the status of God, Son of God, God incarnate etc. Islam views Jesus as a prophet, just like all the other prophets sent before him to the people.

the split happened pretty much at Jesus, but was affirmed with Muhammad, with the Christians and Jews rejecting his message of the 'Oneness of God'

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illiteracy and lack of education is rampant in some parts of the muslim world. i wont go into politics of it, because its not what this thread was intended for.

the idea amonst these people is that women are not meant to be more educated or better than the males. this usually happens in more tribal/nomadic parts of the muslim works. how dare a woman become a doctor! sh0ck/horror! the mentality amonst these men is that domestic duties are intended for the women (although in many hadiths [traditions about the daily life of muhammad]prophet muhammad would clean his own house). although this is not something seen only in islamic customs but also in arab christian culture too, whic leads me to believe that this mentality predates the islamic period.

there are many positives that we dont get to hear about, but i will need to carry tomorrow some time. ive got to be up in a few hours, but ill definately continue this post tomorrow

are you serious? the fucking yankees will always receive the brunt of my vitrol!

I don't even care about the cubs really.. I mean.. why would I care about them? it's not like they win anything :D :D :D :D :D

What's your view on the main differences between Shi'a and Sunni?

What are the basic bare-necessities-to-be-a-good-Muslim spiritual duties that one does daily? (thinking along the lines of praying 5x daily)

As a typical American, we are bombarded with quotes and diatribes from nothing but the most radical of any religious or political view point. That said, what would be the most important thing that you would want the non-Muslim world to know about Muslims?

Also, what is up with all the jihad, and do some people really believe that there are 72 virgins waiting in heaven if they die while blowing the enemy up?

Houri be dammed, I don't think I could do it.

Do Muslims put aside their differences when traveling to Mecca?

Have you ever made the pilgrimage to the Grand Mosque? Do you plan to at some point if you haven't yet?

Is their a central figure in Islam like the pope? Or is there something like a committee of Imans of each sect?

Does Muslim society have moral problems with abortion or birth control?

Is there a black market for porn? What would be the penalty for getting caught with it?

Do very many people speak English in the Middle East?

How do you and the Muslims you know view the Salafist-Takfiri groups and ideologies?

same question from me...

Why do you have to pray so many times a day? Is it respect to Allah ( is that the correct name?) or a way to salvation or a multi daily confessional of sorts?

Do you confess your supposed sins to Allah (?) and are they forgiven if you do confess?
Is there a thing like the catholics have that you do penance?

Why does the religion believe that women should wear a veil in public?

What do you believe happens when you die? Male and female. Are there two different outcomes?

Your original post offered all to ask questions, I'm very sorry if my questions cause offense.

This is a fascinating thread, and I thank you Dlish for being willing to share your beliefs so openly and help educate those of us who are less informed.

A practical question: What are the necessities of Halal? I know there are specific requirements regarding how food is prepared, but I don't know the details. Is it similar to kosher rules?

And a more philosophical question: Does the Muslim faith make allowances for non-Muslims who are basically good people?

I'm comparing this to my understanding of Judaism, for example; my understanding is that the Jewish faith holds that, because the Jewish people were the ones who made the pact on Mt. Zion, their beliefs and restrictions don't apply to those outside the faith. Does the Muslim faith teach a similar tolerance for non-believers, or do they take a more strict view?

What a wonderful thing to do. I'm going to be checking this thread every day.

dlish, I'd like your take on how Obama portraysthe Islamic world in this interview http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/op...n.html?_r=1&em

the bare basics is pretty simple. The 5 pillars of islam is the foundation of what everything else is based on.

-1- The Proclamation of faith - the belief there is is only 1 god and that muhammad is his prophet and messenger

-2- Prayer - praying the obligatory 5 prayers

-3- Fasting - fasting during the month of Ramadan

-4- Zakat - Giving % of your money to those less needy

-5- Hajj - Making the pilgrimmage to Mecca at least once in your lifetime

if you do those, taking into consideration the basic principles of "doing good & prohibiting evil" then you're in good stead. Its not very dissimilar to The Ten Commandments. In principle, its in line with Christian and Jewish beliefs in being good or courtous to people.

Granted, that some people may portray muslims in a different light, but so do others for other belief systems.

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- before travelling for Mecca, a ritual that muslims believe that god will wash away all their sins with the exception of Major Sins and debts. debts are sins against man. whilst major sins are considered sins against god.

Major sins are considered to be things like, Associating a diety with Allah. ie idolatory, partners with Allah, Adultery/fornication, Murder etc.

debt something that you owe someone. usually it is money, but it has many forms. if someone owes someone else money, then that debt must be paid back at some point. if it is not, the person who is owed the debt has the right to ask for their right on the Day of Judgement.

This debt is paid 'in blessings or sin'. so the more sin you have, the worse your account on the Day of Judgement, the more blessing you have the better your account on the Day of Judgement.

The important thing to remember is that only the person who is owed the debt can forgive someone for something they owe them.

the principle here is that when someone goes to Mecca, they come back with no sins owing.

typically when someone goes to Mecca, before they go, they go around to their friends, family and foes asking for forgiveness of anything they may have done, or something they may have owed. they do this with the intention that when they come back from Mecca, they come back with a clean slate.


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i will get to ALL the questions, but ive got work, will check back later.

Just the other day I was curious about how a person of the Muslim faith would cope with the difficulties of being in space, and I found a very cool article about the subject:

Fascinating stuff.

I'm an atheist (though I am legally a Sunni Muslim, according to my state records in Lebanon), but being an Arab I can give some input on the Shia-Sunni thing.
Basically, as in Christianity, there was a schism at some point and believers split into two groups, Sunnis and Shias. This happened after a succession dispute following the death of the fourth caliph (caliphs were the head rulers of the Muslim community in the past, though that evolved into them becoming more of just religious leaders, until the line of rulers was ended by the Ottoman empire in the early 20th century).

In the 1300+ years since the split, there has been a development of some religious differences, different laws and customs, and some separate holidays... But overall the differences are not that vast, frankly (to me, at least :)). But the religious institutions are certainly separate, much like separate Christian denominations.

What's more interesting is that Shias are usually a minority in Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq and Bahrain being exceptions), and historically have often been adversely governed by Sunni rulers, and have often been poorer and less educated. So there is a strong awareness in the Shia community in general of the past and present situations, and there are certainly tensions between the two groups in some countries (not everywhere, though. Local factors matter a lot).

So.. yeah. In places with more extremist groups, those religious differences become amplified and the conflict increases. Similarly, when the demographics are not well aligned with the political representation, you get more tensions. That explains why the problem is more pronounced in some areas.

no i havent. i dont think im in the right spiritual mindframe at this point in my life. i far from being a perfect muslim, and the intention when going to Mecca is to come back to your normal life sinless, but also with the intention of not committing sin. i do plan at some point in my life of course. during my younger more fervant days, i was closer to going to Mecca. but the intention is still there. I'll wait for my calling. my father has been twice, my mother a few years ago, my twin brother once and my younger brother once as well as also doing a Umra (which is considered a 'mini' hajj outside of the hajj period so to speak)


there is no set structure in islam.we have no pope, and nobody is infallible. we are all capable of sin and making mistakes. there are committees across the world, but many imams, sheikhs and just people knowledgable in religious affairs are able to deduce some sort of judicial judgements based on Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah (Qur'an is the holy book, Hadith are written sayings that Muhamamd did, and sunnah are the daily doings of prophet muhammad). any judgements deduced need to be in line with those 3 things. with the advent of technology,it has brought some interesting new innovations (like the astronaut issue mentioned above)

abortion yes. similar issues with morality of killing foetuses (sp?).

birth control no. though some ardent observers believe that bareback is best. coitus interuptus is practiced with those people, but is a bit of hit and miss really. pverty in large parts of the muslim world play a large role in the number of children they have. the lack of access to education, health care and support means that the muslim population is expanding at a rapid pace compared to the western world.

in the middle east? yeah there are people that come door knocking here in the UAE who sell you copies of the latest blockbuster on dvd. if they find that you live alone, they'll usually ask you if you want blue movies. most of these door knockers are chinese. if you get caught with it in the airport, they'll take it off you and possbily fine you. if you get caught selling it, you'll most likely get deported. Im talking about the UAe and probably the gulf. im not sure what its like in other places of the muslim world though.

in the UAE yes the vast majority or people speak english. i only speak english here when doing business unless i come across someone who only speaks arabic.

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let me pray for your foul tongue and that the cubs win the championship next season....amen ;)

If I want to become a muslim, do I need to lower the suspension in my car, and make sure to buy a fully sick subwoofer?

its a good question. everyone has different takes, depending on where you come from. And depending on which side of the fence you sit on, your views would be skewed.

ktsp has his take on it as a lebanese national. but for me the lines are little more defined.

ktsp is right in that the split occured after the death of muhammad, and after the caliphat of abu bakr on who would be the next caliph. what started as a power struggle, ended up being a split in the religions based on this. the shia's followed Ali, the prophets son in law who belived that the caliphate should be based on the family lineage, wheras the sunnis based their arguments on who was better suited for the job.

whilst the principles are the same, the shias have differnt schools of thought to the sunnis, and the emphasis and main difference is the idea that the 'ahl al bayt' should have ruled and the martyrdom of Ali and his son Hussein. theological diferences stem from this main difference.

i can expand a little bit more if you like, im not sure how deep you want me to delve into this. but it does go back 13 centuries.

I know you're trying to be funny. But this is a sensitive issues and I'd like to politely ask that we keep this thread serious and not post humorous "zingers" in it.

Not making this statement as a Mod. Not making this statement because a Mod is the OP. I'd feel the same way regardless of the OP. When someone opens them self up like this it's really not much different then someone laying themselves bare in the exhibition thread. So let's not make negative or slap stick comments here, please.

Thank-you

great question slims. glad you asked.

most wouldnt know this, so it may take some explaining for the rest of the readers.

salafists are also known as wahabis. they call them selves salafis after the 'salaf al saleh' which translated means 'pious predecessors', referring to the predecessors of prophet muhammad. they yearn to bring back the idea that islam has been diluted by some and the only real way for salvation to to bring back the unadluterated version of islam that the pious predecssors practiced.

they are called wahabis to their dismay, because of muhammad adb al wahab who revived the idea of the unadulterated version practiced by the pious predecessors.

they are considered firebrands, though there are many types of salafis around, some more tame than others. they stem from saudi arabia who practice the wahabi ideology, but the ideology has spread all allparts of the muslim world. osama bin laden considers himself a salafi and practices this strain on islam.

the word takfir in arabic means to call someone a heretic or non believer. a kafir is a non believer. so when people associate salafis, many associate it with the fact that many wahabis due to their strict nature, call out other muslims are heretics or non believers. thats where the term comes from.

as far as how i view them? well i have friends from all walks of life, and i dont really care to worry about who or why im friends with whomever i befriend. i do have friends who consider themselves salafis. most of them are NOT takfiri's but sometimes its hard to distinguish. i dont think that salafis are such a bad thing, in that they keep a lot of the other groups honest. but their methodology is quite rigid and unworkable to most muslims who have cultural influences ingrained into the way their practice their religion. for this reason, salafis are not really liked by the majority of the muslim world.

again, i could expand on this, so let me know if you want some more information. im keeping it brief so that i dont bore the rest of you. my intention is to give everyone an insight into a world that many dont and will not see. but keep the questions coming!

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Thanks tully, i appreciate your comments..but you'll find that spindles comments are tongue in cheek since we share the same home city.

we do have a large number of dilinquent arab and muslim youth who just so happen to cruise around in pimped up cars showcasing them down at bondi beach is wifebeaters and adidas sandles. but yes, lets keep this on track , i agree!

similar question: what is the view on original sin? absolution? praying for others to better their postitions in the afterlife?

prayer is considered one of the most important rituals in islamic lifestyle. it is the connection between the person and his Creator, and creates an intimate relationship when done with the right intentions.

it is said that sin is washed away between each prayer. but it can also been seen in another light - increasing ones 'good deeds' therefore tilting the 'scales' in your favour in order to attain the ultimate goal - paradise.

why so many? 5? it is the number god commanded to muhammad. i know what you're going to ask...why 5? im not sure, but i can find that out for you.

however, prayer is not a confessional. we dont have a pope, and our 'confessions' are known by god. as muslims prayer is directed purely at god, and we dont need intermediatries in order to gain access to god. ie. praying to statues, pictures, ikons, or other dieties.

if you are interested i can go into the details of prayer and the requirements of it too.



we dont 'confess' our sins as such. God is the 'all - knower' and there is no need to inform god of something that god is aware of already. but when you ask god for forgiveness it must be with the intention that you stop committing that sin. it doesnt have to be in prayer. its the intention of regretting that action and promising oneself and god that you intend on not doing it again.

the reference to veiling in the Qur'an refers to calling on the women to 'cover their chests and be modest'. however, during the times of muhammad, the women were asked to cover their head, hair and bodies.

now going back to the Hadith and Sunnah which i mentioned earlier (the hadith is the writings of what he did, and the sunnah is was his daily doings) so from these, islamic jurists deduce judgements based those actions that go hand in hand with the Qur'an



i touched on this earlier i think, but quite simply theres heaven or there's hell.


no offence taken..im glad people can be so open with me. and im happy to reciprocate that openess to everyone here.

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actually, i was responding to you in another thread, when you mentioned that you didnt know much about islam, so i offered that you PM me if you had any questions. i was PM'd by someone else, so i decided to put post this thread. it was something i'd intended for a while, but was wondering what sort of reception i'd get :D so we have you to thank Martian!

similar to jewish kosher, except that kosher is stricter on a lot of other things. Levite touched on it a few weeks ago in another thread, so i welcome his comments!

in laymans terms, halal literally means 'permissable' in arabic. in order for a muslim to eat halal meat, there are certain conditions that must be met.

the first and foremost is that the name of God be mentioned prior to the slaughter.

secondly, the death must be swift, and you must reduce the suffering as much as possible.

thirdly the animal's throat must be cut in a certain spot to drain all the blood.

fourthly - all the blood must be drained from the animal

fifth - the animal cannot be swine. even if swine was killed in the correct manner, it can never be halal, unless in necessities. ie. you're out in the bush and theres nothing else to eat sort of situation.

as i mentioned earlier, one of the Major sins (a sin that cannot be forgiven except with the mercy of god) is called 'shirk' which means to associate partners unto him. so the non-muslim no matter how good he may have been, if he had commited such a sin, cannot enter paradise.

so in essence, one must be a muslim to enter paradise. however, those that followed the message of the prophets before hand, even though they came to the jews would enter paradise, as they are also considered muslims, as they followed the message of the 'Oneness of God'. the word Muslim literally means 'someone who submits'. by that, it means submitting to the one true god.

If this is the case:

why bother doing these rounds? Or am I misinterpreting?


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where does the Aga Khan stack up within the Muslim world? Is he considered a supreme spiritual leader like the Caliphs were (or the Pope is)?

Did I understand correctly when you intimated earlier that the Pope is infallible? Is this really the case? I'm not Catholic, so have always thought of the Pope as a sort of head priest.

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Very close to Protestantism.

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It looks like this could be very easily accomplished in a regular meat processing plant. I often purchase halal meat if there is little selection of non-halal in our grocery. My question is why the stricture against swine? The obvious thoughts about pigs and dirt (i.e. mud in pig styes) is on my mind, but that sounds too simplistic to cut out some of the best flavoured meat available. What is the real reason?

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I heard the exact same thing on a radio interview. Except the fellow had converted to Catholicism. He was told that unless he was Catholic he would never get into Heaven.

- I'll have to read back through your thread, but are the Christian Heaven and the Muslim Paradise the same? Or is the one God maintaining two penultimate locations for different sets of believers? (tongue not too firmly placed in cheek... really seeking an answer)

what happened in Muslim history that science, knowledge, and technology were seemingly abandoned by Muslims? Maybe not abandoned but concentrated to the point it wasn't carried forth for future generations.

Islam Technology made me think of the rest of the items like Algebra and other higher mathematics, architecture, and art. What happened?

this is something that's been mentioned numerous times in the media here. i think obama's a fresh change. he's said he's going to make a change, and theres a lot of hope that he will.

Past US presidents rhetoric has gone unfufilled, and the last president was a disaster for middle east poilitics, so the 'Arab Steet' is hopeful of some sort of change to US policy. Most people here welcomed his victory, but questioned whether he would make this change or whether the hawks i the whitehouse would call the shots.

His popularity here is quite high, particularly because of the last paragraph in that article craven. Obama is a dark skinned american who is of mixed race, who grew up in indonesia, has jewish friends, has muslim ancestry and is leader of the most powerful nation on earth.

i think that means something to the arabs. however, it means in peoples actions, and so far with the recent speech in cairo calling for islam to start afresh with the US as well as his calls to shut down guantanamo, i think he;s doing well. you will also notice that two speeches made by osama bin ladin and ayman al zawahiri about president Obama have almost gone without notice in the arab world. i think it says a lot about the arab street.

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crack, thats in interesting article.

i remember reading about these issues just before the astraunaut took off. he went to seek advice from different sheikhs on islamic practice is zero gravity.

obviously, during the time of muhammad space travel wasnt around, so it would be hard to see how the Qur'an or hadith would accomodate for such things within islamic law. but like i mentioned earlier, islamic scholars are able to deduce islamic verdicts from hadith based on sound reasoning.

so for example, the 80 prayers a day would be unreanable. so scholars are able to extrapolate a verdict based on his last place on earth, and his prayer timings would be at those specific times. the same goes with ablution prior to prayers, as well as all things including his food. in this sense, islamic jurispudence is keeping abreast with science. some scholars want the doors of interpretation of hadith to be closed, but the vast majority want to keep the interpretation of islam of new innovations in science open.

This is excellent, dlish. Thanks for doing it.

It seems like THE main sticking point in US relations with the Muslim world is Israel, and our (imo blind, heavy-handed, un-nuanced) support of Israel. All we really hear on the news as the "other side of the story" is the Palestinian view, which is predictably victimized and/or aggressive. We occasionally get out-of-context (and often mistranslated) quotes from leaders of various Muslim nations on Israel, but those don't shed much light on the attitude on the street.

Can you give some idea of the broader view of Israel held by people of your faith-and-general-geography?

The Christian concept of the Original Sin is foreign to islam. no man or woman shall be judged by god except for his own sins.

as for absolution, ive mentioned it earlier, but we dont have a formal way of confession like christuanity has with a priest. it is a personal and private matter that an individual can ask god at any time for forgiveness.

Leto, not sure if i'm going down the right track, but am i answering your question correctly?

although im unsure about your question about praying for others in the afterlife...could you clarify? are yo asking whether one can pray for someone who has passed away?

In the Mormon faith, you can baptize people who have died--including historical figures--and, in a sense, rescue their souls from "outer darkness" into heaven. Perhaps this sort of practice is what Leto is asking about?

Leto, i think you missed the bit about where i mentioned that major sins and debts are not wiped clean if one performs the Hajj pilgrimmage.

so people who are intending of doing the hajj pilgrimmage would go around to people who they feel they may have wrong and ask for forgiveness of their actions, or pay the debt they owe.

its important to remember that in islam, debts are not only money, but can be in the form of things like slander.

I'm terribly sorry about this threadjack.

Er... This isn't quite how it works. I'll send you a PM.

to be honest i dont know all that much about the Aga Khan. fromw hat i know, he was a leader of the Ismai'li shiites, and i know very little about him or that part of islamic history. from what i can recall on shia islam, he was one of the 12 islamic leaders after muhammad were supposed to have been divinely ordained.

this is another point where sunni and shia sects differ. the shia believe that the 12 imams are infallible, where as in sunni islam, all humans are bound to err and make mistakes, including the caliphs.

leto, as far as im aware, the pope is the head for the church and is believed to be chosen or guided by god when it comes to religious matters. ive done a quick wiki search for you.



well, there is no 'real reason' why swine is off limits for muslims except that god commanded it be off limits.

here is the verse to which the prohibition of swine is mentioned in the Qur'an

“He has forbidden you only dead animals, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than God.” (Qur'an 2:173)

people can come to conclusions that pigs are dirty animals, or that they contain parasites etc, but the reason isnt as easy to see as with alcohol for example. here is a website you can visit about this issue.
Why Pork is Forbidden in Islam (part 1 of 3): Obeying the laws of God - The Religion of Islam


the muslim and christian heaven is the same. there will be jews in heaven (those that followed the true path of moses and the jewish prophets), there will be christians in heaven (those that followed the true message of jesus) just as much as there will be muslims in heaven (those that followed the true message of muhammad).

i should note that muslims are not guranteed free entry into heaven and must be judged according to their deeds

Thank you for taking your time to answer everyone's questions, including my own.

I have one more, and it's more curiosity than serious:

Isn't it unbelievably hot for women to walk around in all that clothing? I have seem a very few muslim women "out and about" in what I assume traditional dress, clothing to the floor, to the wrists, heads and faces covered and geez, I'm in Florida. For the heat index to be 102 and 85% humidity is not unusual. For me to wear a tank top and shorts the heat is oppressive. I can't begin to imagine how they wear all that clothing.

I've seen women out together, but I didn't see men with them. Am I confusing my religions? I thought there was something that a woman couldn't go out without a male member of their family as an escort.

Craven,

in reference to your question in post #21 and my subsequent reply in post #34, i came across this video this evening which i find quite timely...

let me know what you think. i was pretty close i think!

i ask myself the same question. muslims historians have been mulling over this for many years.

religious muslims' answer to your question would be that they strayed far from the religion, and that in the golden era of islam, when muslims followed it closely, they were rewarded with the bounty of knowledge. their quest to re-kindle this golden age is to go back to following islam closely.

secular muslims' answer would be that the golden era was because muslims were open minded and were willing to question and interpret everything that came to them, much different to what is happening in this day and age. that age of openess hasnt really re-appeared ever since.

Why do some Muslims forget about koala bears?

I think that now is a good time to pose a more difficult and/or sensitive question. I live in a part of Toronto that is close to a medium sized mosque which has been undergoing renovation for a year now. It is almost finished and looks quite impressive, including a minaret (see picture):

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...000/mosque.jpg

Not bad looking eh? Well, the neighbourhood used to be a staunch Italian/Greek mixture, but now has transitioned to a predominantly Pakistani (?) Muslim area, repleat with Halal meat shops, grocers and (some of the best) shawarma joints in town. Not to mention the increasing traffic headaches as the mosque seems to encourage double parking and sudden u-turns of old Toyota Previas at unpredictable times of the day.

So this is leading to the usual issues of transitional neighbourhoods, lack of understanding etc. The number of homes that have given over to the new demographic in the are has been a cause for concern around poperty values, over crowding and ghettoization (in the geographic term).

I have heard discussions, both ad hoc and on talk radio, that there is increasing sentiment here that recent Muslim immigrants are less tolerant than the society that is welcoming them. That the intent of Islam is to eventually overcome the world through propogation.

That local culture will be supplanted by special interest groups lobbying for legal changes to law (eg Ontario looking into allowing sharia law) and even the loss of cultural icons (the christmas tree, hockey arenas etc) to islamic lobbyers. I heard that the gay community in Holland is under retreat from their freedoms due to the increased political power of muslims in that country.

What is your take on the perceptions of Islam in the west, and why is there such a distintion between the west and Islam? Historically I think that the west benefited from the bounty of the golden age of Islamic thought and culture.

I have a feeling that it is less of a problem of religion and more of an issue with the culture of the middle east, southern asian area relative to North America/Europe.

sure I can clarify. First, let me explain my context. I was raised United Church which is a fairly broad based populist Protestant denomination in Canada. So my religious education was basically church on Sundays with Sunday school, and learning the Jesus songs/ colouring pictures etc. By the time I was old enough to decide on my own to go, I didn't. So I am only glancingly familiar with the Catholic tradition.

So, about praying for somebody in the afterlife, I understand that Catholics (and Anglicans??) believe that if you go to church and pray for somebody who has died, their soul will benefit. Which is why you always see old Italian widows, all dressed in black, going to church all the time (in my neighbourhood anyway). It's like you can intercede on behalf of somebody's soul.

Your lack of a formal confession is what i view as being similar to Protestantism. I think that with the Reformation, the protestants argued that people would have a direct line to God, and can pray/confess directly to God without haveing to go through a priest/clergy. Maybe there was an influence from Islam in this regard?

As for original sin, I think (and I'm no expert!) that once Adam & Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, all humans were saddled with original sin. I.e., even a baby, when it is born, is born a sinner and requires absolution. Or am I interpreting this incorrectly? At any rate, would not Islam have grandfathered this concept into its traditions as it is an Abrahamic religion?

koala bears are kosher :D

Anglicans are protestants - same as Uniting church. It is only Catholicism that uses priests as 'god's representatives on earth' for forgiving sin.

Dlish -

I imagine someone with an Australian passport would not deal with this issue, and you don't seem to dress in those picturesque white robes (what is their real name?) while traveling but...
Do you ever feel singled-out when passing through airport security?

You seem to travel a lot between Australia and Dubai (and elsewhere!).

Thank you Dlish for starting this thread. Very interesting.

I have a couple of questions about the 5 daily prayers, and prayer rugs. I hope they haven't been asked before; I did look but might have missed them.

Are the 5 prayers random? (time of day and what Muslims pray about) Or are they structured with prayer #1 about x, prayer #2 about y, prayer #3 about z, etc.? I know some Christians like to recite the 'Lord's Prayer' at the end of, or instead of, prayers made at large gatherings. Even though it really isn't required. Anything like this? Is there a minimum time required for each prayer?

About the prayer rugs. (Hubby sent some rugs back from Afghanistan when he was stationed there. Some small ones turned out to be prayer rugs, in various colors and designs. They probably sound like silly questions, but I am curious about the rugs now that we own a few). Are they required? Are they personal items, or can they be shared? Does the design or color have anything to do with the owner's age, marital status, status in society, or anything else I didn't list?

my apologies for not posting more often here. i was re-posted back to Abu Dhabi, so my internet access is intermittant and has been curbed significantly.

Leto, since your emails require some time and im currently at work, ill answer those when i get home later tonight. i think that they're great questions.



does this answer your question :P


http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...8/IMG_1798.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...8/IMG_2114.jpg


in all seriousness, i think ive got it lucky that i do have an aussie passport. it allows me to get to anywhere i want with relative ease. i have had problems at airports though, where ive been searched.

ive been 'randomly selected' twice in Sydney where they test your luggage for explosives, and ive been tested in Bruneii for drugs.

i have only travelled in robes in an airport to Yemen, but that is all. every other place i travel in cargo pants and a t-shirt and have had no problems.

i am unsure of the randomness of my testing, but with an arabic name, i expect to be questioned. not that it makes it right, but i dont get my hopes up. with all the talk about AQ recruiting westerners to do their dirty work because of the ease of which they can get into some countries, im not all that fussed since i have nothing to hide. i do have issues with people freaking out and reporting people that look like arabs or muslims, or even hindus.

i have been through JFK airport, and had no problems. i do recall some hindus in turbans were whisked away into another room because they looked 'different'.

the robes have many different names depending on where you come from. in and around lebanon, syria, jordan etc, they are called abaya (yes abaya's nick is named after this!), in pakistan its silwar kameez, here in the UAE its called a dishdasha (dish-dash as the westerners call them). ive only ever worn a dish dash a few times here, sometimes around the house but rarely outside.

How tolerant is Islam for marrying outside of the religion? Could you (or did you) marry a non-muslim. Would she have to convert? Could she stay as a christian (or whatever)?

firstly..congrats on the shawarma joint..its not officially a muslim area without a decent shawarma joint...nothing like a decent shawarma at 3am on the way home from a night out...legendary!


although im unsure about the demographics in your area, i can get a gyst of what you;re talking about. we have had similar situations in sydney where different areas get usurped by certain ethnic minorities. some of them muslim, some not. what i do tend to find though is that the 'locals' end up being rubbed up the wrong way, and then make every effort to make life hell (excuse the pun :D ) for the newcomers. sometimes its the new comers' misunderstanding the new culture, or quite simply ignorance of the status quo in the neighbourhood. irrespective, its still causes some sort of commotion and ruffles feathers in the existing cimmunity.

one thing you need to remember is that a large majority of these people come from poorer countries and have no sense of understanding local customs in terms of what is right and wrong. this is no excuse for anyone to break the law of course.

you will also find that if you have a large contingent from the subcontinent that the level of driving skill will plummet. here in the UAE, we have huge problems with incompetant drivers. many of my workers do their driving tests up to a dozen times before they pass.

as for the double parking, it will probably be worst during the friday prayers. the friday prayers ae considered the most important prayers of the week and are carried out around lunchtime on fridays. Friday prayers for the devout muslims absolutely cannot be missed. during this time, many latecomers attending will double park to make sure they dont miss the prayer which is carried out for about 5 minutes at the end.

we have this issue here in the UAE, but it is widely accepted, and even the police officers double and triple park with the rest of the attendees. it sets a bad example, and so people think its ok to do it on other parts of the word.




the concerns you raise are standard concerns that most western communities have whenever an alien culture is introduced. one such example is an islamic school that tried to set up in a western sydney suburb called camden. campdens' a pretty 'aussie' area, and all of what you mentioned (and more) were brought up as reasons to reject the development applicaton through council. parking, terrorism, etc etc. eventualy the application was knocked back and the school never eventuated. though some of the reasons given would have been valid, a lot of it would have been fear mongering

there is an excellent satirical show called "Little mosque on the Prairie". i think you will find a lot of what you speak about in this show..its well worth the time. i think its canadian too.






islam and the west..how many volumes would you like me to write?

are they concilable? sure..i think you can meet somewhere without the need for clashes. people speak of the clash of civilisations, but i think many people have been able to reconcile their beliefs with the west without the need to rub each other the wrong way. i think im importance is education on both sides of the fence...seconded by mutual respect. with education (secular and religious) people start to see things from the other side.

i guess i can count myself as someone who's managed to reconcile my beliefs with my nationaility. i am however, far from being a perfect muslim, but i am damn proud to be a fair dinkum aussie. i only realised this when i moved to the middle east!

with regards to clashes...there will always be disagreement. islam can co-exist, but its misunderstood. i could elaborate, but this topic is a thread on its own!

---------- Post added at 04:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 AM ----------

islam permits marriage to the 'people of the book', which is essentially christians and jews.

muslim men can marry christian or jewish women, but muslim women must marry muslim men. so a non muslim man must convert to islam to marry a muslim woman. the conversion must be because he believes in the faith and not because he wants to marry the muslim woman.

the reason for this is because the man under islamic law is considered the head of the household and the main breadwinner and if the husband is not a muslim it could cause the woman and the children to comprimise their faith.

no i didnt marry a non muslim. my wife is a lebanese australian like myself.

---------- Post added at 05:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 AM ----------


there are 5 compulsory prayers per day, that have a set structure. the others are not. the 5 prayers are set through the day...

1) dawn
2) midday
3) afternoon
4) sunset
5) evening

for the non structured prayers,you can pray for any reason, and ask for anything (provided it is not forbidden. you cant ask for a big pork roast at the next get together for example). prayer can consist of asking god something, it can be in a ritualised form of prayer like in the youtube video. its up to the individual. but the 5 compulsory ones must be formal.


formal prayer usually comprises of set movements and recitals from the quran. they can be done in a group or on your own. here is a very brief youtube video on it
other non formal prayer might be quiet time and contemplation. but theres other prayers or short sayings that muslims say when they do certain things like sneezing or leaving the house, or getting in a car etc.


as for prayer rugs, rugs are well known throughout the entire silk road from china to persia. rugs and carpets are an important part of everyday life in central asia and turkey. im unsure of the meanings of some rugs, but some have higher meaning than others. it doesnt really have a religious meaning, but rather more of a cultural/status thing. i read a book a few eyars ago called 'the carpet wars' by the auther Christopher Kremmer. one of the best books ive ever read by far!

After checking out your sexy pic in "right effin now", I've got a question for you. How does Islam deal with homosexuality?

haha! umm err..thanks?

now you're hitting the hard questions!

in a nutshell, homosexuality is banned under islamic law. this is a consensus reached by all islamic scholars.

the story of the people of Lot is related in the Quran (and is similar to the Biblical story); also known as the Sodomites. God destroys the city and its inhabitants because of their sin. for those that dont know, the 'people of Lot' (Lut in arabic) were homosexuals.

since islamic law is derived from the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah, many jurists prescribe capital punishment for homosexual acts based on the story of Lot.

however, this is dependant on what country you're in. countries like turkey who are secular democratic nations who happen to be muslim have much softer views on homosexuality than say saudi arabia

most muslim countries although they have punishments for homosexuality, do not prescribe capital punishment if they can avoid it. this includes saudi arabia.

thats in a nutshell. ill be happy to expand if you wish.

Thanks! I really do hope this is the beginning of a change. I'm not sure when it all went wrong. Probably decades ago. Backing the Shah of Iran while at the time was never questioned in the States, was not good for the US. Support of Israel undoubtedly has created a chasm. And there's dozens of other examples. In spite of all this I sincerely hope there will be peace and acceptance amongst the Islamic world and the US - from both sides. What you're doing here is just as important as Obama's speeches. You would be a credit to any religion. Thanks for doing this, my friend.

thanks craven, i try and answer it as honest as possible. of course anyone is welcome to challenge my view. in fact, i want TFPers to do just that! its not a one way street here, and im not here to lecture nor convert. so ask away.

with regards to you statement, well you need to ask yourself when did the US actually come onto the radar of islamic fundamentalists?

i personally dont think the US played a major role in world political affairs where they asserted their presence until after the second world war. so up until 1945, they were never a target.

i think with their wanton support for the state of israel was what set it off, along with Britains double dealing when it came to the whole sykes picot agreement and the balfour declaration. the arabs and muslims felt short changed in favour of the more affluent jews who were more of an interest to both the US and the UK.

from there on in, i think the feelinsg of muslims world wide changed with the support of israel in the six day war, the yom kippur war as well as the military support and weapons training and aide that the US provided to Israel.

without this turning into a political discussion (but then again, its hard to seperate religion and politics - especially in the middle east), the arabs and muslims felt like they had been left out in the lurk.

obamas' olive branch has some hope. this may be the fresh change that we need, but arabs and muslims are weary purely because of the fact that base on history, things havent fallen their way when it came down to the question of israel or the question of a seperate homelad for the palestinians. i think if this is solves, we've come a long way to solving it. the rhetoric has changed, so arabs are more hopeful of a different light. i can see that in the daily newspapers and of the way people speak of Obama here. The arab street is gathering a more concilitory tone. an example of this would be the recent lebanese elections. the people voted against the more powerful hezbollah because they didnt want to go back through the days of civil war. they elected a pro-american candidate, so im seeing positive signs ahead

in saying this, lets not forget the nutjobs in all corners - the muslims, the arabs, the jews, the israelis, the americans that'd love to see this derail so they can say 'i told you so'.

OBL's gripe with the US was in the early ninties if i recall correctly. his call then wasnt that he wanted to slay the infidels. its was having the US based on islamic/holy lands which were propping and supporting an authotarian regime.

do i see a resolution to the animosity? yes and no. i think that if the americans can show they the arabs are being dealt a fair deal, then it would help. one thing that needs to happen is a grass roots change. education is key, as is aide and reduction in poverty. the lack of one, or all, will only breed resentment and ignorant behaviour towards anything western.

Is the use of the term Saracen considered offensive?

only if the context you say it in implies ignorance.

it was originally used for a nomadic tribe in arabia, but then became synonymous with the word muslim.

I have a Muslim friend who is originally from Albania. Once we got on the topic of his sister and I asked him what her name was and he said she didn't have one. Is this a Muslim thing, or are you unfamiliar with this practice? If it is a Muslim thing do the women in his family really not have names or will he just not tell me their names.

thats a load of baloney dude.

my sisters got a name, but i wont tell you because i dont know you well enough.

maybe thats also the case with your friend? did you just meet the guy, or are you guys best friends?

sometimes muslim men can be very defensive of their women. its quite common here in the gulf to go to an arabs' place and visit the family without actually seeing the women. the men have their own visting quarters, and women have their own.

i have been in houses like this here in the UAE as well as some extremely devout muslims in australia. im a stranger to them, and i take no offence to it. although i do find that here in the gulf, its not done out of religious piety, but rather than custom.

but yes, she's got a name, theres just a reason why he wont tell you.

They do not prescribe capital punishment if they can avoid it? There are situations where it would be unavoidable?

tully - political and western pressure.

it's also why iran i believe hasnt crushed its political opposition just yet. the iron fist is clenched but they havent used it like people'd expect them to.

the only muslim government that really didnt care about how it was percieved was the taliban, because basically they had nothing to lose

Thought i'd bump this thread seeing that the islamic holy month of Ramadan is here.

Happy to take any questions TFPers may have on Ramadan or any other topics

I am going to see the bulldogs play footy on Sunday afternoon. For those wondering where I'm going with this, it is the last season home game for the team's high profile Muslim, Hazem El Masri. Given Ramadan is on atm, the rules of fasting mean no food or drink between sun rise and sun set.

Given a 3pm kickoff, he won't have had anything to eat or drink for several hours and playing football at this level must be quite draining.

Are there any special dispensations given if you *have to* exert yourself heavily or do you just need to suck it up?

Assuming no special dispensations, how would you go about preparing for a physically taxing day?

I thought I'd add a wikipedia link for Hazem for anyone else interested (I'm 100% sure dlish knows who he is):
Hazem El Masri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi,
Although you are not from Afghanistan, I was wondering if you have seen the movie "The Kite Runner" or read the book of the same name? What were your initial thoughts?

During Ramadan is the giving of foods or other charity something that is done on a daily basis or do you select one family to help?

do i know who Hazem El Masri is???

ive met Hazem on no less than 40-50 times. He is close friends with my cousin, and knows many of my friends very well. We have similar circles. In fact another cousin of my toured with hazem whilst playing for Lebanon a few years back. The lebanese community in Sydney is quite small when you think that everyone is separated within a degree or two.

with regards to his fasting during playing, Hazem has done this for years. There are numerous sports stars who happen to do this, many that i recall played in the NBA.

There has been many debates within the muslim world with regards to professional muslim sports stars fasting during Ramadan. Most recently this week where an egyptian soccer team were exempt via a fatwa from Egypts religious institutions, but the players refused to take up the option.
Egypt footballers exempt from Ramadan fast, Egypt Football - Maktoob Business

the current argument as it stands, is that as a professional player, this is your only means of making money, and if fasting is going to be detrimental to your line of work, or dangerous, than an exemption can be made. However, knowing Hazem, he will be fasting.

For those that intent on fasting, preparation does need to be made. obviously hydration is of utmost importance, as is diet. The sydney winter sunrise is about 5am, and sunset is at 5:30pm, so he'd have gone without water or food for a good 12.5 hours by the time he breaks his fast. The bulldogs would have provided him with a dietitian to support him during Ramadan. but since she-lish is a dietitian, i can tell you that he'd be subscribed with foods that contain slow release energy so that his energy levels stay high throughout the day. he'd be loading his energy levels from a few days prior at least. His training however would most likely be at night, with probably lights training runs with his team mates.

If he feels the need to break his fast because he feels weak or lightheaded during the game, then he is permitted to break the fast and make up for the day after Ramadan. In saying that, when i was a kid as school, i would run or walk to school and back, play rugby or basketball during recess and lunch, swim for 2 hours after school and then go to track training for 2-3 hours almost on a daily basis. so an 80 minute game is do-able. so as a professional athlete, im sure he (and the bulldogs) would have made a contingency plan in preparation for Ramadan.

i wish Hazem the best of luck. He has had a great career. He's been a great ambassador not only to the sport, but as a representative of the lebanese and muslim communities. He is genuinely a 'good bloke' and his work with the youth is well known, and he deserves a big farewell this weekend. This wont be his last game during Ramadan however, since the bulldogs are top of the table and look like title contenders.

---------- Post added at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------

Ananas? you do know that Ananas mean pineapple in arabic... right? or is this just a coincidence?


sorry, back on the topic of the kite runner, no i havent seen the movie nor read the book. my wife she-lish has read both the kite runner and a thousand splendid suns and loved both books, so i have a general idea of the contents.

my thoughts on it? from what ive heard, its a fictional book accounting the atrocities of the taliban in afghanistan.

in defence of the taliban, they were never provided with the support they needed in order to set up any sort of legitimate government. their initial intentions were correct when they first came to power after many social injustices after the fall of the soviets. they just had no idea how to run anything. They were a bunch of religious students who became rag-tag soldiers, most of who were illiterate. what were people expecting? does that justify what they did to women, children and non pashtuns? no, not by any measure.

those are my initial thoughts. if you'd like me to expand, give me some more detail in your questions so i can detail my answers for you.

Thanks for replying Dlish. :)

No, I did not know Ananas also means pineapple in Arabic, I only knew it meant that in Italian. I have learned something new today, so I say thank you.

I asked about The Kite Runner because that's been my most recent exposure to an Islamic nation, and thought about what you said earlier about homosexuality being a sin. The book/film depicted several assaults against young boys, so I wondered how the Taliban (or any Muslim) would square that with religious injunctions. Knowing that there are always those that will skirt or break the laws I don't want you to think you have to answer for their indiscretions - just curious.

Taliban - they may have been uneducated and eager for revenge, but their zealotry to impose an impossible version of Islam (and continuing efforts today) is I believe what horrifies most Westerners. Why is art a target of destruction (the giant Buddhas that were destroyed)? It almost seems the opposite of what the Spanish did in the 15th century when Ferdinand & Isabella took control of Spain.

How do the various Muslim sects view the West in terms of culture, business, lifestyles, etc.?

Are there many atheists or non-believers in Muslim communities?

What do you do for fun, or enjoyment, and is there anything you'd like to do but are restricted by the tenets of your beliefs?

I know, lots of questions, and I hope you have the patience to answer them. It is very interesting to me.

See, now you are just bragging! ;)

sorry ananas, i didnt realise i didnt answer this question.

Generally, Ramadan is a month of giving. Charity can be in many ways. it may be being courteous to your neighbours, or even strangers, or helping someone out by taking time out to help them. its not necesary to have a monetary value on things in order to give charity. so in that sense it could be on a daily basis, but its not necesary to fulfill the obligations of fasting.

the giving of money does not necesary mean that you must give to those that you know. it could be a stranger, one particular family, or the local mosque or any numerous charities. it could even be a non-muslim, and what better way to open doors than that! It's really giving money or food to those that need it. those that are poor and are unable to give are exempt from this obligation.

apart from general charity, what you will also find is that many people will pay zakat in the month of Ramadan too. i'm sure i've alluded to this earlier in post #22, but zakat is an obligatory payment that muslims must make every year as part of the 5 pillars of islam. This should be made if you are able to and is around 2.25% of any surplus money you have at that point in time. Usually it is coincided with the month of Ramadan because it's a) a well known time of year and people wont forget to pay the zakat, and b) because good deeds are multiplied in Ramadan, so i guess its a better time to give because you get better reward points if that makes any sense.

edit - ananas, i'll answer the rest of the questions later tonight when i get the chance

spindles - bragging? ppfft! me?? never! ;) did you get your free tickets to the game? NRL is doing a charity giveaway to raise awareness of parkinsons i think.

Mcspindles, just so you know, i bought baby-lish a west tigers jersey, beanie and scarf (my favourite team when i was a kid and pre-super league/merger) when i was in sydney a few weeks ago. i didnt want him becoming a run of the mill bulldogs supporter. its was considered as heresy at my in laws!

That's quite interesting! I knew that halal slaughter required something akin to what we Jews would call making a blessing beforehand (i.e., the name of God is mentioned in reference to being the Creator, etc.), and I knew that Muslims were also forbidden pork, but I did not know that Islam also forbids the eating of blood, and that the slaughter is supposed to be quick and as painless as possible. Those things are also true of kosher slaughter (sh'khitah), although it sounds like the process of making meat kosher is a bit more elaborate, as we must not only drain the animal of blood in the usual way, but also salt the meat using rock salt, forcing it to drain on a slanted board, then rinsing off the salt with water, and repeating the whole process three times.

Question: can anyone who has been told those rules slaughter an animal and have the resulting meat be halal? I ask because with us Jews, a man must be specially trained to be a shokhet (ritual slaughterer): if an untrained person who slaughters an animal, we are permitted to call the meat kosher if we have to, but generally speaking, it is not done, and the untrained are not permitted to slaughter.

Oh, that reminds me: D, do Muslims have rules about halal eating? I mean, for us Jews, kosher meat is only a part of keeping kosher: we separate all meat from dairy, and are not permitted to mix meat and dairy products at the same meal (let alone in the same dish), we keep separate dishes for meat and for dairy foods, and we often wait a set time between eating meat and dairy. Also, there are a lot more animals we are not permitted to eat than just pigs. A whole lot more. Most of them, really. What about you guys? Just pigs, or anything else? Do you have stuff you can't mix, or other things you're not supposed to eat. I mean, besides alcohol. I know about not drinking alcohol. Although now that I think of it, it was explained to me once that alcohol is forbidden because the Qur'an seeks to prohibit drunkenness. So could Muslims eat a dish that is cooked with wine or brandy, in which the alcohol has cooked off?

So one serious question I've had for a while is this. Islam, like Judaism is a religion of laws. Now, in Judaism, we have developed a number of movements (some might call them sects; we call them movements, since sect sounds divisive) that interpret halakhah (Jewish law) quite differently, resulting in a spectrum of theologies and practices that range from so liberal as to be nearly nonexistent (Reconstructionist and Reform Judaism) to liberal but traditional (Conservative Judaism) to traditional (Modern Orthodoxy) to fanatically conservative (ultra-Orthodoxy). I know that there are movements in Islam that are fanatically conservative, like Wahabism, but are there liberal movements? Is there even the beginning of any kind of movement to interpret and re-interpret Shari'a in progressive, socially liberal ways?

Finally, one last question about practice. In Judaism, we have formalized blessings (single-line liturgical units, which always begin with the Hebrew for "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe..." and then go on to thank or at least mention God's having created something or commanded us to do something) which we say before and after eating, drinking, performing ritual duties, going to the bathroom, seeing marvels of nature, or experiencing other phenomena in the world. So for example, before eating an apple, we make the blessing "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of trees," or when smelling a flower we make the blessing "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe, who creates fragrant plants," or when we light the candles that inaugurate the beginning of the weekly shabbat (sabbath), we make the blessing "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe, who sanctified us with commandments, and commanded us to kindle lights for the shabbat." We have a zillion of these, for everything under the sun, every day. Do you guys have anything similar? Something by which you recall God frequently, something to kick up the everyday with a little holiness? It seems to me like something Muslims would have. Anything?

Thanks for doing this thread, man. It's a real service to your fellows.

Wow levite... that's a whole heaping helping of good questions. Can't wait to see the responses.

It also means Pineapple in French, so the whole time I saw your id, I was thinking in the back of my mind.. ah French!... part of a typical Canadian education i suppose.

---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ----------


wow Levite, I think that you need to start your own thread along the same lines. Like, I really am curious about the origins and meanings of these strictures. Are eggs considered to be dairy (as they are to most people I know - why I don't know) ? And if so, the first thing that comes to my mind is that steak & eggs for breakfast is right out.

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 AM ----------

so dlish, I'll relate an experience that I had yesterday. There may not be a question in here, but may be comment-worthy.

My son (16 years old) goes to a fairly cosmopolitan, inner city high school in Toronto. It is equidistant form government housing (Regent Park - for the locals), exclusive blue-blood establishment (Rosedale - again for the locals) and everything in between. So there is a good mix of socio-economic varieties attending the school. About 50% of the students are of Tamil imigrant, 30% are local Canadian varieties and there is a good mix of carribean, arabic and middle eastern.

well, last evening a group of my son's friend (John - white typical headbanger Canadian, no real religion except Rock music) Fahad (muslim from Dubai) and Siva (Tamil Hindu born in Sri Lanka) are in the back yard jamming on their guitars (well, 2 guitars and a bass).

As I am not sure when they are going to break off and return to their homes for dinner, I ask them if they would like to stay, I could put in an extra pizza to accommodate. All three say that they are good, don't want to eat (being polite I think) But Fahad also said that he was fasting anyway for Ramadan. I still felt like I should provide, as it was getting on to about 7 pm, and the rest of us were already eating a casual dinner.

So I poured a bowl of chips (ketchup flavoured - the kids favourite) and brought it out to the patio. I point blank asked Fahad if he was ok, as he was fasting if I set the chips out for the others. I was feeling like I shouldn't flash food in from of him if he could indulge.

I have to say, I have never met a more polite, respectful kid than Fahad. He stood to address me, greeted me with a handshake and called me Mr. when he did leave, he came into the house (took off his shoes too, which we all do, but kids tend to forget) thanked us for the hospitality.

Now he may have been all Eddie Haskell on me, but somehow I get that this was genuine.

Oh, and for a Muslim kid from Dubai, he can sure produce some quality guitar licks from Rush, Led Zeppelin and the Stones. It was fun to have him in the mix. The whole group of kids was a good dynamic.

Just thought I would relay that cross cultural experience.

like i said i did hear about the book and that it contained abuse of young boys. i dont know much more than that. but at the end of the day, just because you wear turban does not make you more or less religious. everyone's human and sin and make mistakes in the same way that those 'of the cloth' are susceptible to sin

its not really art that they attacked. You will find islamic art everywhere throught all the islamic dynasties. it is the notion of idolatory that they attacked. You will find that there are no ikons or idols in mosques that you would see in catholic and orthodox chruches, but rather the mosques are decorated with quranic verses and islamic art.

The Bamiyan buddhas were considered as an abomination to the strict hardliners of the Taliban due to the strict wahhabi ideology they adhered to. howeverm there have been other circumstances in hisory where historic monuments were not destroyed as is the case with the Sphynx in Egypt. One of the companions of prophet Muhammad Amr Bin al Aas who was appointed as governer of egypt after the death of prophet Muhammad didnt touch any of the historic relics in egypt, even though those relics prescribed to idolatory and other gods. so it really does come down to interpretation and education.


depends on which part of the muslim world you speak of. saudi is more of a closed society, next door UAE is more of an accepting and open society where you have a mix of everything and is like living in the west almost. every muslim culture wants to do business with each other and the rest of the world, some bend the rules more than others.

yes. ktsp one of our members here mentioned it above. though the numbers are not as high as in the west. exact numbers would be hard to come by though.

personally, travelling is my past time. you may notice some of my other posts around the board. i also trek and run and play different sports and teach swimming. i dont drink or smoke either. i enjoy what i do and dont feel restricted in what i want to do. i may sound odd as a typical muslim, but i consider myself progressive, and i see no issues with reconciling islam with the west.


happy to answer any questions. its part of my aim to break down barriers between my culture and religion and the rest of the world.

In another thread, you made some statements about the immaculate conception with respect to Islam.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...ml#post2695172


How does this square with the view that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet (if I even got that right) I mean how many other prophets got the immaculate treatment?

Jesus' role within islam is that of a prophet like those that came before him. He was given the power of miracles in the same way that others like Moses was given miracles. one of those miracles was his birth, immaculate conception. Many people dont realise that Jesus plays a large role is islamic beliefs, and to deny Jesus is to deny the islamic faith.

no other prophet got the immaculate treatment (unless you want to include Adam onto that list). but we still consider Jesus as a human being who walked the earth like any other human being, except that he was given favours by god to perform miracles and preach His word. The belief that he is God, God incarnate, fully man/fully human etc is foreign to islamic belief. The concept that he died for the sins of man and the Original sin are not part of islamic beliefs either. each man shall be judged on his own actions, and not by the actions of others.

with regards to the belief in the immaculate conception, i've been toying around with the philosophical idea of X & Y chromosomes and what male chromosomes jesus would have had if he was born of a virgin, but it really comes down to a matter of faith vs science. Maybe science can prove things in the future, i dont know. somethings i cannot explain.

Christianity has many denominations which have varying amounts commitment involved and disagree about trivial(to me anyways) matters. Catholicism, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian - The list goes on and on. Are there any differences or major disagreements of the faith within Islam or is the faith pretty united in it's beliefs? Obviously, there are extremist as with other religions so there's no need to point that out.

wow levite..im going to attempt to answer all your questions.. but i agree, there's so much many of us would wantt o ask that i think it would be prudent to set up your own "Ask a Jew..." thread. i think it would be quite informative and would break down many of the stereotypes. i know i could learn a thing or two.



Though many slaughter practices are similar, islamic halal practices are no where near as elaborate or strict as jewish practices. The "kalima" (translated means the "word") needs to be said before an animal is slaughtered.

The word that is to be pronounced is "Bismillah" (in the name of God - "Bism" meaning "in the name of.." llah" coming from the word "Illah" or "Allah" meaning "The Lord", hence making up the prounouncement. There are additions to the pronouncement, but the bare minimum is "Bismillah".

The eating or drinking of Blood is forbidden in the same quranic verse that pork is prohibited

Quran 2.173 "He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful."







As long as the proper steps are taken to ensure that the meat is halal and slaughtered in the proper manner, then anyone can slaughter an animal. This includes the "people of the book" (ie. jews and christians). There are however, differing opinions on whether a person who is not a jew or christian can slaughter and have it deemed halal even though he/she may pronounce the "kalima".






we also have halal eating, though again not to the extent that the jews have. muslims are permitted to eat meat and dairy in the same meal, in the same dish. there are no rules against this.

i am aware of some of the jewish dietary rituals because my wife studied them while doing her dietetics degree. she called it a 'kosher kitchen' where there were seperate utinsils and seperate dishes for different foods. im amazed at how it works, and would be interested to hear about it in more detail.






though porcine products are prohibited, there are some animals that we cannot eat. generally speaking, it is animals that eat meat. beasts of prey like tigers, lions etc, birds of prey like eagles etc, dogs, cats etc. i dont know the exact rules because ive never looked them up because they dont really apply in my situation.






yeah the obvious one is alcohol. but alcohol is not prohibited because the quran wanted to prohibit drunkedness, but moreso because it's an intoxicant. therefore, with the same reasoning, drugs are considered a prohibition.

verse 2.219 in the Quran states "They ask Thee concerning Wine and Gambling, Say: In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."

anything that is considered "haram" or prohibited is prohibited in small or large quantities. therefore utinsels or dishes that have been served with alcohol need to be cleaned and washed before being used. any foods that contain alcohol for flavour, even though it evaporates is considered prohibited under this law.






yes, muslims have similar things. actually, the more i'm finding out about judaism, the more im seeing similarities between it and islam. there are prayers, blessings and sayings, rememberences etc for things like waking up, before you sleep, before going to the bathroom, before you eat, after you eat, before you leave the house, before entering the house, before embarking on a trip,after sneezing, coughing etc etc etc. theres pretty much a prayer for everything to do with your day, some are simple one liners like "bismillah" (in the name if god) or "alhamdulillah" (praise be to god) to longer ones for travel that you hear on a lot of the middle eastern airlines before the plane takes off.




theres still one question ill need to answer for you that i have not yet answered, so ill leave that for another post



glad i can be of service! hope it clarifies things..any further questions, im more than happy to field

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

just wanted to add that theres a concise wiki page on islamic dietary rules if you're interested

Islamic dietary laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

difference of opinion in human nature. therefore is only natural that some interpret the way they see their religion differently to others. islam is not exempt from this. the major differences is obviously the two major sects Sunni and Shia (aka shiite)

ive answered this in post #27 with regards to sunni and shia. i can continue this if you want me to.

within the sunni sect itself, there are 4 main schools of thought based on the ideologies of 4 scholars. most sunnis follow one of these depending on what part of the world they come come. again difference of opinion on many things are present depending on the interpretation of the scholar. its well known that some people tend to take from all 4 main schools of thought as well. the literary works done on the schools of thought are so volumous that it'd take a lifetime to read, but most are about islamic law and jurispudence regarding injunctions, fatwas, and decisions on certain verses, interpretations of hadith, etc etc, so there is always another opinion.

as a whole though, the principles are pretty set and agreement is reached on those main principles. let me know if you want me to get into any details or examples.

Thanks, D. Excellent knowledge. This is quality stuff.

You rock.

I have lots of questions.

First, and if you read my question to levite (I'm sorry, I don't know how to link specific posts), what is the Muslim view of sex before marriage?

The rest of the questions come from me and my husband jointly. We live in a very homogenous, very white uptight Christian community and the majority of our knowledge comes from the media (which is always right, you know!). He's a little more worldly than me, as he's travelled to the Middle East while in the military and had a very brief glimpse, but we are both pretty ignorant of Muslim belief/culture. We aren't trying to offend, we're genuinely interested.

How are American tourists viewed in countries that practice Islam? My husband said he would love to return (his example was Bahrain), but we really don't know if we'd be accepted, I guess. He said he saw a lot of European tourists, but what about Americans?

How is drinking viewed? Is it acceptable as long as it is in moderation?

My husband (I don't typically watch) sometimes hears on "news" programs and such - usually some sort of debate between a Muslim and a Christian - that mainstream Muslims view extremists and their behavior as not adhering to the teachings of Islam, but because of mainstream Muslims "not policing their own", the general, uneducated American view of Muslims is the extremist one. Is extremism tolerated...something distasteful but kind of swept under the rug? Are extremists who engage in criminal/terrorist activity actively pursued by law enforcement? Here in Utah (and the west in general), we definitely have extremist Christians and every so often there will be some big brouhaha between the religious people and law enforcement - the US certainly doesn't escape from zealotry. Again, we are genuinely curious. 3 minute soundbites don't offer much to sink your teeth into.

Lastly, my husband would like to know if you could recommend any books as good reading material for someone who wants to learn about Muslim religion/culture in general.

I have 2 Q's

I know that there is an issue (similar to the one you mentioned in the Jewish thread) with Muslim athlete's fasting during Ramadan... particularly not drinking in daylight.

If a pro athlete (or anyone) competed in Ramadan - during daylight - and was overcome by the heat: should they drink water in the case that they believed they needed to to save their life? Or in the truest adherence to their rules should they face death before breaking fast?

Of course, the other option is that the Muslim athlete doesnt compete in Ramadan - but (in the same way as a Jew refusing to compete on the Shabbat) this would make it virtually impossible for them to be a pro sportsman.

_

In your opinion, is there any religious commandment within the qu'ran that decree's that women should cover up any part of their body in public? Or is this instead merely a social and man-made rule prevalent in many Islamic communities?

(sorry if this has been touched on before, I didnt read the whole thread)

Hi, dlish.
I have read that it is difficult to translate the Qur'an into English.

I have a copy translated by Thomas Cleary.
Do you have any recommendations for further reading?

Have you noticed any major changes in the intended meaning of the text,
between the two languages?

wow, i didnt realise i missed some questions...

ill start with Ring's questions

that's quite a topical question that always seems to pop up.

muslims believe that the Quran is the word of god. unchanged, unadultered. it is not the text itself, but the words that was revealed to Muhammad that is considered holy since the Quran was conveyed to muhammad verbally and didnt come on a table or scribed.

its not that it is difficult to translate the meaning of the verses, but rather the words themselves. this is why you hear muslims saying things like 'the meaning of the Quran' rather than 'translation of the Quran'. this is because muslims believe thats gods' words are perfect in arabic and changing them to any other language loses its meaning.

how so you ask?

arabic is a rich language. so rich and descriptive in fact its not uncommon that that some words have 20, 50 and even 200 different synonyms and describing words.

so when someone decides to translate the Quran into english as a purely textural reference and purely from a literal meaning then that persons' going to run into problems unless they had a high command of the arabic language, the reasons for the revelation, as well as hadith and arabic and islamic history.

muslims believe that to translate the actual words themselves are difficult, but that it is possible to convey the message or meaning of those words.

I have not read the Thomas Cleary translation, so i cant really comment on it.

By far the most popular translation out there bar none is the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation called 'The meaning of the Holy Quran'. its the equivelant of the 'King James version' of the Bible, if i can draw that parallel.

Of the western translators, Marmaduke Pickthall', 'The Glorious Qu'ran' is easily one of the most popular around, especially in the muslim world.

from the different translations around, there isnt a change in meaning, bit rather the choice of words is interesting. Translations by non-muslims usually paint a harsher picture of the Quran. Usually, if there was a choice of words, the non muslims translators and commentators would use the harsher translation, whereas the muslim translation to english is more closer to its intended meaning.


i hope that made sense?


edit----

here is what Marmaduke Pickthall had to say about the translation of the Quran. it's pretty much what i said, except more elegantly.


"... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...The book is here rendered almost literally and every effort has been made to choose befitting language. But the result is not the Glorious Qur'an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy. It is only an attempt to present the meaning of the Qur'an-and peradventure something of the charm in English. It can never take the place of the Qur'an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so..." [Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930]

Translating the meaning/intent of God's communications into any of mankind's languages
would be a trial I imagine.
I do, and do not understand
what you mean by separating the terms 'words' and 'text.'

Perhaps it's like trying to pin down something as delicate as a butterfly's wing.
The more and more it's handled, it dissolves.

I suppose it's somewhat akin to having a large variety of words
that attempt to describe the many different shades and textures of snow,
where snow is thee enviroment.

How indeed could we scribe our own body language/eye contact/ pheromone shiftings?

I wonder if my 50 year old brain could learn Arabic. I would hope so.

As an aside/ I always thought I was dumb trying to learn math as a youngster in the USA.
The Iranian mathematics teacher I was blessed to have,
during an apprenticeship program
for tool and die making, had the ability to really...teach/translate/infuse/
/pull the veil back/ open the door/ to the gift of mathematics.
It was a beautiful awakening lightbulb happening,
for both the teacher & the student.

I remember this being touched upon somewhere earlier in this thread.

ok, you're definately reading too much into it..

ok a little insight..

muslims usually see it that god had intended his message in arabic because of its perfect message for that purpose in that language. on its arabic form it is unadulterated. in any other language it is not.

the perfect example

Abdulla Yusuf Ali - the holy quran
Marmaduke Pickthall - the glorious quran

same meaning as a whole, but different words to describe the message

generally the most popular arabic word used to describe the quran is 'al quran al kareem'. if you translate it literally it means 'the generous quran'.

the two translators have opted to use other words, because the word 'generous' isnt the correct meaning. one using the term holy (in arabic qudsi, or mouqadas) the other using the word glorious (in arabic majeed) to get their intended message across.

however, in arabic the words remain unchanged and will always remain the same regardless of the translation. any translation of the arabic text is only a rendition of the original text and meaning.

have i confused you some more?

dlish, I have tried reading the Qur'an (in English, of course) a few times and found it impossible. The first time I started with al-Baqra and began to read the suras serially. It was impossible to follow. Then a friend of mine (lapsed Muslim) suggested that I start at the back and read from the last suras forward. That was slightly better, but still it was very difficult to follow. Much of it needs context and explanation so that you can tell which revelation came when and in which context, which you can't get just from reading the revelations themselves. Also, there is no linearity to the text. It jumps all over the place, repeats, diverts, etc etc etc. It's not a narrative of any kind that Western readers are used to.

That being said, from my very limited knowledge of semitic languages I can see that the poetic structure is fabulous, that the linguistic usages are innovative and vivid, and that there is a certain "music" to the text. I don't speak or read Arabic (though I'm considering getting Rosetta Stone to learn) so I can't really appreciate it. I wonder how the early Muslims were able to persuade so many people about how fabulous their new religion was if those people couldn't really appreciate the Arabic.

Interesting question. What percentage of Muslims actually speak Arabic?

loq - you're right. for someone to pick up the quran and expect to be reading a novel or narrative doesnt really know what they're in for.

The quran can be described as a poetic set of instructions based around biblical narratives and muhammads' life.

To fullly appreciate the meaning of the Quran, you really do need to understand the reasons for the injunctions contained within it. It's also important to know why those revelations took place to begin with and understand Muhammads role in those revelations. There are thousands of volumes of books on this very topic, but i could probably source a concise book to help if you want me to.

as for the order in which it is read, there is no order. It wasnt revealed from the first sura first and the last sura last. Though it is loosely organised in a way that the shorter suras are at the end, and people comprehend these better because they are short and to the point.

as for the early arabs. well they thought that the Quran was a form of sorcery. Historically, the arabs were fond of poetry; and they still are to this day. The arabic language was always rich because of this. The arabs would hold poetry competitions to see how was the best poet of his tribe, area etc. so when the quran came they were able to grasp it quite easily. They were so surprised by its richness that they couldnt believe that anyone would come up with something like this. so the opponents of Muhammad would accuse him of sorcery because of the strong poetic nature of the Quran.



craven - do you mean what percentage of muslims speak arabic? or what percentage are arabs?

the estimates have that arabs are about 10-15% of the muslim population. of those arabs there are many christian arabs, like the orthodox and maronite christians in Lebanon, and the coptic christians in Egypt.

there are also non arabs that speak arabic, like turks that live close to the border with syria, assyrians who are chritians that live Iraq etc.

Then you have the africans who are techinically 'african' but speak arabic as their first language - like egyptians, moroccans, algerians, libyans, somalis etc.

obviously the further you are away from arabia, the less arabic that is spoken in the muslim world.

so the % could be a lot higher if you take the africans into consideration.


just to add to this. dont forget that iranians are not considered arabs and dont speak arabic. just thought i'd throw that in

Thanks, dlish. It was more of a rhetorical question. It sounds as if in order to fully appreciate the quran, one should understand the Arabic language.

yeah i should have picked that up.

there are arabs (especially those that live outside the middle east) that have little command over the arabic language. But i have also met non arabs - indonesians, turks and anglo saxons that speak it better than i do. to understand the Quran at a basic and literary level you need a reasonable level of arabic. if you wanted to really delve into it, it would take years of research. its easy to learn, but hard to master; if that makes sense.

but yeah like you said, you do need to know some arabic, and the history behind what you are reading to fully grasp the context.


On the topic of watering down of the arabic language, this becoming a major concern especially with the introduction of english words into the arabic language as a result of technology. words like 'computer' for example have no equivelant in the arabic language, so there's a current debate on the future of the arabic language with all the new vocabulary. The argument for the traditionalists is that the Quran being the guide and source for the muslim world is the saviour of the arabic language. you'll find that the emphasis of the arabic language in saudi si so much more than anywhere else in the arab world. no street signs are in english. this is quite the opposite in dubai where more things are in english than arabic. in fact the level of arabic here i find it quite low for an arabic speaking country

Dlish, in Hebrew a computer is "mahshev", from HShV, "thinking". I know Arabic works off three-letter roots like Aramaic and Hebrew do, so the word for "thinking" in Arabic should be manipulable that way. Or did they do some horrid thing like spell "kahmbyootehr" in Arabic?

exactly! take your pick...

kahmbyooter
electooniciyeh
mazerboord

its prety tough speaking tech-speak without referring to it in english. has hebrew come up with an equivelent for all its technology words?

Modern Hebrew is a mishmash of the classical language, some updated words (like mahshev that I mentioned before) and borrowings from all over the place (Sephardic immigrants brought Arabic with them, the Russians brought Russian and Yiddish, the Americans brought English, etc etc etc). I don't know how much techspeak is in adapted hebrew and how much is loanwords from English, but I have a couple of Israeli clients who are in the tech business, so next time I speak to them I'll ask. I know that "software" or "program" is "tochna", which is a hebrew word sharing a root with "schedule" or "preparation". But then there are horrid things like "eenformatzia" or "televeezia." Or "sveder" (made of wool, keeps you warm) or "frizr" (keeps food frozen).

Hi Dlish,

I don't know if you're still answering questions, but I hope you are.

I've been researching about this for a while, and I can't believe it's so difficult to find out, but maybe you can help me:

My father is from Iran, and he has told me that: In either Sunni or Shi'a Islam (I think he said Sunni), a person cannot be an Imam without being a Sayyid (descendant of Prophet Muhammad). So, for example, the father of Nadir Shah's name was Imam Muhammad Quli Beg Khan; therefore, he must have been a Sayyid (making Nadir Shah a Sayyid also, as well as all of his descendants). Can you confirm this or something like this to be true?

I know it is strange and specific, but it is important to me to find the answer to this. If you do not know, perhaps you can direct me to a place where I can find out, or someone else I could ask? Thanks very much.