Are American kids turning into spoiled little assholes? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KnifeMissile · 04-16-2009, 10:08 AM

Okay, I suppose I'll throw in a personal anecdote while I'm still here...

As some of you may recall, I lived in a group home. I've never experienced the sort of non-competitive, can't fail coddling that we're discussing here except for the Christmas banquet given for the residence, staff and administrators of the home. There are several cash awards given out for various achievements. Pathetically, I won best student. I was always a poor student so either they were trivially won over by my studious efforts in select subjects (mostly math and physics) or the other kids tragically sucked even worse.

There were also "individual achievement awards." I don't recall if they were called that exactly but it was a little trophy given to everyone for something. Often it was an inane something, as if they were struggling to find something with which to award you. I didn't realize what they were doing for the first couple of awards but after a short while, I began to notice that there were a lot of these awards. Eventually, it was obvious that we were all getting one. I remember some humour around some of them so they were probably given in good fun but spending the time to give all twenty or so kids an award seems excessive enough that I'm sure that avoiding anyone feeling "left out" was a motive...

I was given the Einstein award for Mathematics. This was before the proliferation of the internet but still... How hard would it have been to look up an actual mathematician to name the award after! Gauss would have been my choice but there's no shortage of great mathematicians from which to choose...

Poppinjay · 04-16-2009, 10:23 AM

Did you also get the Freud award for Biology? Sorry for the joke, your story is riveting. I volunteered in a group home and wish I had read your story before.

I encourage you to stay, and write, a lot.

kutulu · 04-16-2009, 11:07 AM

"Kids these days"

Every generation thinks the one before them is ungrateful, entitled, rude, lazy, whatever. They also "know" what is the root cause of things. We beat them too much/not enough. We gave them too much/not enough praise. Oh noes! We didn't keep score and rub it in the 8 yr old's faces that they suck so now they will be entitled assholes!!!

You all have great anecdotal evidence but the fact is you see what you want to see. You probably raised your kids a different way and therefore can't comprehend how any other way could be superior.

Charlatan · 04-16-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KellyC

I've always thought the idea of adults constantly praising kids is stupid. Even worse is when they do it to each other. I remember a time in 8th grade gym class, we were playing baseball. A girl was up on bat, every time she swings and miss the girls on the side would say "good try, good try" and applaud her. In my head, I thought, "that was shit--it wasn't anywhere close to being good." I bumped into a few of them last year. Needless to say, they're not faring very well.

I would also like to point out that the opposite of what you suggest is pretty nasty as well.

Imagine, if you will, a scenario where that girl is derided for her lack of skill. "You suck!" "Why couldn't you hit that? My four-year-old sister can swing better than you."

Being forced into gym class when you are clearly not talented at sports is one of the top moments for public humiliation. A little encouragement or a "good try" never hurt anyone.

I make a distinction between gym class (forced attendance) and little league (chosen attendance -- usually chosen by parents). I stand by my earlier point that parents shouldn't make their kids join little league if they are not interested in sports. They should find other avenues of interest to pursue.

And I generally agree with Kutulu... I don't think things are ever as bad as they appear in these sorts of discussions... and these sorts of discussions have been happening forever.

new man · 04-16-2009, 05:38 PM

I think kids might understand the difference between praising them for trying hard and bullshitting them. You can encourage your kid to succeed and work harder, without lying to them. "I saw how hard you ran that race, you really improved your time. You keep practicing and getting better, and you will start to score some victories." "In the meantime, you did your best. Too bad the judge is a lying cheat who favors the other team." Just kidding about the last part. But yeah, there is a sense of entitlement that has been built up in many people.

kutulu · 04-16-2009, 06:03 PM

If kids sports is the topic then there are a lot of things going on that are worse than excessive praise. Preteen sports are about learning the game, getting physical activity, growing a sense of achievement, exposing kids to teamwork, etc. The act of competition is way down the list of important things.

They can have their hyper-competitive league where only the good kids play when they get older. When they are young there are more important lessons to learn.

Grasshopper Green · 04-16-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I remember a thread from a couple of years ago about helicopter parents doing work for their kids. Not school work, work work. As in the kid got paid for it. That's the endgame that I see from this sort of behavior.

I work at a family-run business. There are only 5 of us in an office of about 20 that are not related. The daughter of one of the family members recently started feeling "overwhelmed" doing a job a non-family member did for years without help. Guess what? The rest of us have to help her do her job now because the mother complained about the "work overload". Fresnelly is right...jerks do raise jerks.

The_Jazz · 04-17-2009, 04:48 AM

Hmm, is praise by one kid to another a problem? I see no problem with one teammate supporting another, even if the praise is misplaced. It is, it seems to me, another form of cheering. A bunch of kids standing on the sidelines and telling a player that they're doing well when it's painfully obvious that they're not? Very ok with me. A parent has an entirely different set of motivations, most prominently that they're not on the team.

As I've grown older and become a parent myself, I've come to realize that the baseball league that my brother and I participated in as kids was very special. First, parents were not only expected to remain on the sidelines but they were also expected not to be obnoxious about their kids' accomplishments or lack thereof. Other parents would guide, sometimes physically, those who were too outspoken. Many parents were coaches, and they too were bound by these unwritten rules. The summers that I was 8 and 9, I was on a team with a kid with cerebral palsy. He played in every game and batted, despite the fact that he was on crutches most of the time and in a wheelchair in the later innings and that he was a sure out, even if a kid took it easy on him (and most did). Our first year together, he didn't get a hit or even a walk, but he was the happiest kid on the field. He always cheered loudly for any of his teammates that was at the plate and we all made sure to cheer for him. At the end of our second year, I was on third when he got the only hit of his career (someone else ran for him, but he stood on each base). The amazing thing is that both teams cheered him on (to be honest, the shortstop probably let it through, but it was still a good hit) and most of the parents had tears in their eyes.

There are times when cheering is a good thing.

Tully Mars · 04-17-2009, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I would also like to point out that the opposite of what you suggest is pretty nasty as well.

Imagine, if you will, a scenario where that girl is derided for her lack of skill. "You suck!" "Why couldn't you hit that? My four-year-old sister can swing better than you."

Being forced into gym class when you are clearly not talented at sports is one of the top moments for public humiliation. A little encouragement or a "good try" never hurt anyone.

I make a distinction between gym class (forced attendance) and little league (chosen attendance -- usually chosen by parents). I stand by my earlier point that parents shouldn't make their kids join little league if they are not interested in sports. They should find other avenues of interest to pursue.

And I generally agree with Kutulu... I don't think things are ever as bad as they appear in these sorts of discussions... and these sorts of discussions have been happening forever.

I remember being in little league and having other parent cheer me on, even from the opposing team. It's was a very positive culture. When my daughter played soccer one summer some of the things the opposing parents were yelling at the kids was nothing short of harassment. I think things have most certainly changed over time.

And I completely agree that jerks raise jerks. Now it's just become more acceptable to be an ass in public.

Iliftrocks · 04-17-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I believe in failure.... and this man's essay is testament to that...

Amen, if you are always right, or always succeed, what are you really learning?

I have a daily fight with my ex, and my new girlfriend about letting my daughter fail on her own. If she doesn't want to put the effort in, let her deal with the consequences, within reason. I do try to encourage her to do her best, and put in effort, but when she gets lazy, I let her. I'm sure the backlash to messing up will teach her much more than standing over her shoulder and making her do her work. But, apparently I am wrong, again.

As Albert said to Bruce in Batman, quoting the elder Wayne "Why do we fall? .... So we learn to get back up"

---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Hmm, is praise by one kid to another a problem? I see no problem with one teammate supporting another, even if the praise is misplaced. It is, it seems to me, another form of cheering. A bunch of kids standing on the sidelines and telling a player that they're doing well when it's painfully obvious that they're not? Very ok with me. A parent has an entirely different set of motivations, most prominently that they're not on the team.

As I've grown older and become a parent myself, I've come to realize that the baseball league that my brother and I participated in as kids was very special. First, parents were not only expected to remain on the sidelines but they were also expected not to be obnoxious about their kids' accomplishments or lack thereof. Other parents would guide, sometimes physically, those who were too outspoken. Many parents were coaches, and they too were bound by these unwritten rules. The summers that I was 8 and 9, I was on a team with a kid with cerebral palsy. He played in every game and batted, despite the fact that he was on crutches most of the time and in a wheelchair in the later innings and that he was a sure out, even if a kid took it easy on him (and most did). Our first year together, he didn't get a hit or even a walk, but he was the happiest kid on the field. He always cheered loudly for any of his teammates that was at the plate and we all made sure to cheer for him. At the end of our second year, I was on third when he got the only hit of his career (someone else ran for him, but he stood on each base). The amazing thing is that both teams cheered him on (to be honest, the shortstop probably let it through, but it was still a good hit) and most of the parents had tears in their eyes.

There are times when cheering is a good thing.

The kid deserved praise, he didn't sit on the sidelines whining about what he couldn't do. People like that are an inspiration to us all to keep moving forward and not letting things get in our way. First place and awards are nice, but real winning is something that happens inside.

Derwood · 04-17-2009, 01:38 PM

My 6 year old daughter is doing soccer right now. She's on a team with 8 boys and two girls, and if it were up to the boys, the girls would never touch the ball. If it wasn't for the coach "giving everyone a try", my daughter would never play. I don't see anything wrong with that at this early age. If she ends up being terrible at soccer, she'll probably lose interest and we'll try something else.

04-16-2009, 10:23 AM	#42 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Did you also get the Freud award for Biology? Sorry for the joke, your story is riveting. I volunteered in a group home and wish I had read your story before. I encourage you to stay, and write, a lot. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

04-17-2009, 04:48 AM	#48 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Hmm, is praise by one kid to another a problem? I see no problem with one teammate supporting another, even if the praise is misplaced. It is, it seems to me, another form of cheering. A bunch of kids standing on the sidelines and telling a player that they're doing well when it's painfully obvious that they're not? Very ok with me. A parent has an entirely different set of motivations, most prominently that they're not on the team. As I've grown older and become a parent myself, I've come to realize that the baseball league that my brother and I participated in as kids was very special. First, parents were not only expected to remain on the sidelines but they were also expected not to be obnoxious about their kids' accomplishments or lack thereof. Other parents would guide, sometimes physically, those who were too outspoken. Many parents were coaches, and they too were bound by these unwritten rules. The summers that I was 8 and 9, I was on a team with a kid with cerebral palsy. He played in every game and batted, despite the fact that he was on crutches most of the time and in a wheelchair in the later innings and that he was a sure out, even if a kid took it easy on him (and most did). Our first year together, he didn't get a hit or even a walk, but he was the happiest kid on the field. He always cheered loudly for any of his teammates that was at the plate and we all made sure to cheer for him. At the end of our second year, I was on third when he got the only hit of his career (someone else ran for him, but he stood on each base). The amazing thing is that both teams cheered him on (to be honest, the shortstop probably let it through, but it was still a good hit) and most of the parents had tears in their eyes. There are times when cheering is a good thing. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-16-2009, 10:08 AM	#41 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Okay, I suppose I'll throw in a personal anecdote while I'm still here... As some of you may recall, I lived in a group home. I've never experienced the sort of non-competitive, can't fail coddling that we're discussing here except for the Christmas banquet given for the residence, staff and administrators of the home. There are several cash awards given out for various achievements. Pathetically, I won best student. I was always a poor student so either they were trivially won over by my studious efforts in select subjects (mostly math and physics) or the other kids tragically sucked even worse. There were also "individual achievement awards." I don't recall if they were called that exactly but it was a little trophy given to everyone for something. Often it was an inane something, as if they were struggling to find something with which to award you. I didn't realize what they were doing for the first couple of awards but after a short while, I began to notice that there were a lot of these awards. Eventually, it was obvious that we were all getting one. I remember some humour around some of them so they were probably given in good fun but spending the time to give all twenty or so kids an award seems excessive enough that I'm sure that avoiding anyone feeling "left out" was a motive... I was given the Einstein award for Mathematics. This was before the proliferation of the internet but still... How hard would it have been to look up an actual mathematician to name the award after! Gauss would have been my choice but there's no shortage of great mathematicians from which to choose...

04-16-2009, 11:07 AM	#43 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	"Kids these days" Every generation thinks the one before them is ungrateful, entitled, rude, lazy, whatever. They also "know" what is the root cause of things. We beat them too much/not enough. We gave them too much/not enough praise. Oh noes! We didn't keep score and rub it in the 8 yr old's faces that they suck so now they will be entitled assholes!!! You all have great anecdotal evidence but the fact is you see what you want to see. You probably raised your kids a different way and therefore can't comprehend how any other way could be superior.

04-16-2009, 05:38 PM	#45 (permalink)
new man Banned	I think kids might understand the difference between praising them for trying hard and bullshitting them. You can encourage your kid to succeed and work harder, without lying to them. "I saw how hard you ran that race, you really improved your time. You keep practicing and getting better, and you will start to score some victories." "In the meantime, you did your best. Too bad the judge is a lying cheat who favors the other team." Just kidding about the last part. But yeah, there is a sense of entitlement that has been built up in many people.

04-16-2009, 06:03 PM	#46 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	If kids sports is the topic then there are a lot of things going on that are worse than excessive praise. Preteen sports are about learning the game, getting physical activity, growing a sense of achievement, exposing kids to teamwork, etc. The act of competition is way down the list of important things. They can have their hyper-competitive league where only the good kids play when they get older. When they are young there are more important lessons to learn.

04-17-2009, 01:38 PM	#51 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	My 6 year old daughter is doing soccer right now. She's on a team with 8 boys and two girls, and if it were up to the boys, the girls would never touch the ball. If it wasn't for the coach "giving everyone a try", my daughter would never play. I don't see anything wrong with that at this early age. If she ends up being terrible at soccer, she'll probably lose interest and we'll try something else.