Illegal not to wear a bra ? !!!

[Jan71]

It is normal for a workplace to require that their employees follow a certain dress code. But i have never heard a workplace that makes it illegal to not wear a bra. In this case it seems like she could be fired for having bouncing breasts ?
Any lawyers out her ?

laborlawtalk.com/showthread.php?t=197860

[SabrinaFair]

I'm not surprised at all that she could face disciplinary action up to and including termination for not wearing proper foundation garments. When a person is employed at-will (not under contract) then they can be fired for pretty much any reason, so long as it is not based on gender/race/religion/etc. While there may be an argument that this is "gender related" (as men are not required to bind their breasts), it probably wouldn't stand. An employer is entitled to set a dress code, which may include undergarments.

Personally, I can't imagine not wearing a bra to work--it seems very unprofessional to me. Then again, I work in a conservative environment (the legal profession) in the South, so I suppose workplace culture could be different in other professions and places.

[Glory's Sun]

It would depend on whether this was a right to hire state or not.

Either way, if you want to work for an employee you have to follow their rules as long as no civil rights are being violated by those rules. Requesting that women wear a bra is not a violation of civil rights. They don't care what you wear away from the office.. just what you wear in the office. Every company has their own idea of professionalism..

[telekinetic]

I think you're confusing 'illegal' with 'against the rules'....employers can make whatever rules they want.

[genuinegirly]

If someone wears stretch jeans into work, they're asking to be sent home.
I would not be comfortable without a bra in any kind of work environment.

One of my female professors at Berkeley wouldn't wear a bra. Didn't seem to bother anyone.

[raeanna74]

Personally, I try to dress better than I am required to. To avoid problems.
In this circumstance, the woman says there is NO dress code at her workplace. It's been her manager who has criticised her, not the owner of the company or higher up boss. I don't know what her workplace is like but it does not sound like a very large company if there is no actual dress code.
If I was in this situation I would probably ask the manager for an outline of what clothes are appropriate for work and what are not. Ask her to post it in the break room where I could refer to it when needed. Then there would end up being a dress code for the whole workplace. The woman's gripe here is partly that her co-workers are not being held to the same standard. There needs to be a specific outlined standard that would be required from every employee.
She could be fired for other reasons possibly but if they were to fire her for 'inappropriate dress' then she could probably fight it if there was no set 'appropriate dress' standard. Why would you want to work someplace that was unfair as that though, anyway?

[ngdawg]

After reading that thread, I think the OP is being a bit of an ass. She knows what she was doing was unprofessional and her "if they stare, it's not my problem" attitude smacks of purposely wanting the attention.
That's like those people who go out in public looking like they just did a spread for Hustler, then whining about the wolf whistles.
People dress for two reasons-1)comfort and/or 2)attention. Breasts flopping around is not comfortable, so it must be #2.



/me can't stand it when people know full well what they're doing then act all shocked when they're called on it....

[mrklixx]

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

After reading that thread, I think the OP is being a bit of an ass.

I disagree (but I'll do so without name calling). What if the person in question is more comfortable without a bra? It's hardly rare to have slightly smaller than average breasts, which may not be caused pain by "flopping around". It seems a little catty to me that one would automatically assume this is about getting attention, but even if it is for attention, what's wrong with that? You don't think women should have the right to be sexual? Or do you assume that an ounce of sexuality somehow poisons a work environment?

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Willravel

I disagree (but I'll do so without name calling). What if the person in question is more comfortable without a bra? It's hardly rare to have slightly smaller than average breasts, which may not be caused pain by "flopping around". It seems a little catty to me that one would automatically assume this is about getting attention, but even if it is for attention, what's wrong with that? You don't think women should have the right to be sexual? Or do you assume that an ounce of sexuality somehow poisons a work environment?

You question my position on the sexuality of women? RFLOL!!

According to the OP in that forum, she was told "easy to see that i wasn't using a bra when i was active. If people was distracted by me (she claimed) that's not really my problem." Sorry, but to me, that's a dumb statement for her to make. It is her problem and she created it.
Now, how "active" could she be if the place is an office? Walking. "Smaller than average" breasts don't show a lot of "activity" walking.
Sorry, but she's being indignant about something that she's creating herself.
That's not "an ounce of sexuality". That's arrogance. And, yes, sexuality doesn't belong in a professional environment unless it's a Vegas stage show.

I wear SUPPORT bras and still show "activity" but I'm not flaunting it nor do I get indignant when there's a comment made(but since I don't flaunt, any comment is usually in a joking manner). I also don't make it a point to flaunt because it's in a working environment. There's a huge, HUGE difference between trying to look your best and being a showoff. And if anyone is going to be a showoff, they sure as hell shouldn't complain about it when they're called out on it.

I don't buy that "who, little ol' me??" stuff ever once a person is over the age of 5.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

You question my position on the sexuality of women?

There's no question, you're attacking someone and you didn't support your position well.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

According to the OP in that forum, she was told "easy to see that i wasn't using a bra when i was active. If people was distracted by me (she claimed) that's not really my problem." Sorry, but to me, that's a dumb statement for her to make. It is her problem and she created it.

That depends, really. If she works with prudes, it's possible that she's acting within social norms and isn't "dumb" at all. Or are you under the impression that there aren't any prudes in the world?

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Now, how "active" could she be if the place is an office? Walking. "Smaller than average" breasts don't show a lot of "activity" walking.

Let's not pretend that the only C cups or above move when a woman is walking. And how many offices have stairs? That's additional movement.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Sorry, but she's being indignant about something that she's creating herself.
That's not "an ounce of sexuality". That's arrogance. And, yes, sexuality doesn't belong in a professional environment unless it's a Vegas stage show.

You seem to have a problem with women being sexual. Either you're wearing a bra or you're a Vegas show girl? That's completely dishonest.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I wear SUPPORT bras and still show "activity" but I'm not flaunting it nor do I get indignant when there's a comment made (but since I don't flaunt, any comment is usually in a joking manner). I also don't make it a point to flaunt because it's in a working environment. There's a huge, HUGE difference between trying to look your best and being a showoff. And if anyone is going to be a showoff, they sure as hell shouldn't complain about it when they're called out on it.

I don't buy that "who, little ol' me??" stuff ever once a person is over the age of 5.

You're jumping into this assuming she's being overtly sexual because there was a complaint. I'm saying that complaint is not enough evidence. It's certainly not enough to call someone, especially a new member, an ass.

[mrklixx]

Originally Posted by Willravel

It's certainly not enough to call someone, especially a new member, an ass.

Point of order: I'm pretty sure the assness was directed at the OP @ laborlawtalk.com, and not the OP here.

[Willravel]

Sorry, I was working off the assumption that Jan71 may be Oraja. Regardless, it seems that we don't have enough information, especially when we seem to be getting heated.

Can there be inappropriate work attire? Of course. Must a woman always wear a bra in an office? Not necessarily. The woman on the other forum said that she was wearing a thick wool sweater when she wasn't wearing a bra. That, to me, seems completely fine.

[ShaniFaye]

If there is no dress code in the employee handbook then I dont see where anyone has the right to say anything about it.

Fortunately in my office(we are all engineers), the only code we have is no printed tshirts and no shorts. Since my reduction to a C cup there are LOTS of times I dont wear a bra....Im the only girl here and none of the guys have ever told me I need to wear one lol

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Willravel

Sorry, I was working off the assumption that Jan71 may be Oraja. Regardless, it seems that we don't have enough information, especially when we seem to be getting heated.

Can there be inappropriate work attire? Of course. Must a woman always wear a bra in an office? Not necessarily. The woman on the other forum said that she was wearing a thick wool sweater when she wasn't wearing a bra. That, to me, seems completely fine.

I don't know of a single healthy hetero male who would say it's not fine, except maybe some stuffed shirt CEO

The fact that she was called on it ( I have to say, very PC'ly done too) says it was noticeable. If I was showing breast "activity", I'd certainly prefer a female boss say so.
Both of my sisters and my mother are/were proud members of the Itty Bitty TItty club and the only activity they ever showed was if they came into contact with a blast of cold air.

And Shani, you answered yourself by saying you're the only woman. I really doubt anyone in your office would complain about your braless days.

If the situation was reversed, say a really buff man wore clothes to show off his physique(and maybe his bulge) and he worked in an all female office, how many complaints do you think he'd get about it?

I wouldn't rule out jealousy in the original off-site thread, but it's the OP's attitude there that tells more."It's their problem if I go braless" shows a complete lack of maturity and judgement. Whether there's a dress code or not, there's always some protocol and when one doesn't know the boundaries, one should be savvy enough to ask and err on the side of conservative. Pushing the envelope doesn't get you anyplace good.

[Jan71]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I don't know of a single healthy hetero male who would say it's not fine, except maybe some stuffed shirt CEO

The fact that she was called on it ( I have to say, very PC'ly done too) says it was noticeable.


If the situation was reversed, say a really buff man wore clothes to show off his physique(and maybe his bulge) and he worked in an all female office, how many complaints do you think he'd get about it?

As a guy, i just can't imagine a male boss or a male coworker would complain on another man. " Hey, John the fact that you are wearing jeans with a thick fabric doesn't disguise the fact that you have a musculus butt. When you are walking, we can se that your butt muscles are working. I have to tell you because there has been complains from other male workers.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

If I was showing breast "activity", I'd certainly prefer a female boss say so.

Why should anywone tell you if you showed breast "activity" ?

[Bear Cub]

I personally think that the managers should have a right to take disciplinary action, but only after issuing a warning.

The office is not unlike public schools. If bra-less breasts are prominently on display, it's a distraction to coworkers (or classmates) and inhibits the ability to get work done (or learn). Not to mention, it's begging for a male employee to make just ONE sexist remark before a lawsuit raises corporate hell. I'd do the same thing if a male coworker came in wearing spandex pants with his junk hanging out for the world to see. Wool sweater or not, it was obviously visible enough to be correctly identified and commented on by the manager, meaning it was still inappropriate.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I don't know of a single healthy hetero male who would say it's not fine, except maybe some stuffed shirt CEO

I've been distracted by female attire before, though, and if it were distracting to the point of making any kind of dent in productivity, it would be appropriate to do something. But that's the thing; there is a line somewhere, but without actually seeing the attire of the woman in question it's really difficult to tell if that line's been crossed.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

If the situation was reversed, say a really buff man wore clothes to show off his physique(and maybe his bulge) and he worked in an all female office, how many complaints do you think he'd get about it?

I've never gotten any complaints, but I don't walk around with a massive erection. Of course gender roles aren't identical in our society so I'm not sure any comparison would be apt.

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I wouldn't rule out jealousy in the original off-site thread, but it's the OP's attitude there that tells more."It's their problem if I go braless" shows a complete lack of maturity and judgment. Whether there's a dress code or not, there's always some protocol and when one doesn't know the boundaries, one should be savvy enough to ask and err on the side of conservative. Pushing the envelope doesn't get you anyplace good.

That's just it, though. There are certainly circumstances where not wearing a bra is just fine.

Imagine a woman with a B cup was wearing something like this without a bra. Even if she had 1/2 inch nipples and it was 50 degrees in the office, it still wouldn't be inappropriate. Just like in the thread on the other forum; a thick wool sweater.

The case doesn't seem black and white to me. Mrklixx was absolutely right, this thread needs pics.

[genuinegirly]

Will, I love your taste in cardigans.
Considering that the woman in question was wearing stretch jeans, she is not likely to shop at Saks.

[mrklixx]

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

Not to mention, it's begging for a male employee to make just ONE sexist remark before a lawsuit raises corporate hell.

I think this is the bottom line right here.

I don't know if anyone has ever seen this commercial, but this is kind of what bralessness/erect nipples is like for me in the office.



Also, I think this applies to the discussion: (sorry I couldn't find it on youtube)

Jumpcut - SNL-Will Ferrell's Patriotic Skit

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Will, I love your taste in cardigans.

Thanks. I'm buying that very sweater for a friend of mine for Christmas.

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Considering that the woman in question was wearing stretch jeans, she is not likely to shop at Saks.

Fair enough. Still, I would imagine that Wal-Mart and Kohl's have thick sweaters, too. I just can't automatically accept the axiom that a woman should absolutely wear a bra in order to be work-appropriate. One of my first girlfriends in high school couldn't stand wearing a bra (unless she was exercising). And it's not like she paraded around in public in a white t-shirt with no bra, either. She just wore slightly thicker clothing.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Jan71

As a guy, i just can't imagine a male boss or a male coworker would complain on another man. " Hey, John the fact that you are wearing jeans with a thick fabric doesn't disguise the fact that you have a musculus butt. When you are walking, we can se that your butt muscles are working. I have to tell you because there has been complains from other male workers.



Why should anywone tell you if you showed breast "activity" ?

Because it would/ could be a distraction and a misunderstood invite to harrassment. As a guy, you've probably never been approached in the workplace, so you really wouldn't understand. If you have been harrassed, you wouldn't have asked, hence that assumption.
I agree, no guy would approach another regarding attire unless it's the boss telling someone to lose the Eagles hat.
But I was asked at a job if I was wearing a bra and asked by a male supervisor. I just looked at him and snapped the strap with an annoyed "yea".

I have worked in offices where a person's mode of dress has been brought into question and I can tell you one thing: those that had the attitude of the off-site OP had the same attitude towards their job and never seemed to last very long....

A friend and I discussed this topic this morning. As a foreman, it was up to him to make decisions regarding the workers. One woman lineman usually went braless. He couldn't say anything for two reasons-1) he could be accused of sexual harrassment and/or gender bias and 2) not wearing a bra was not an OSHA safety violation.
Granted, that line of work was outdoors and the only dresscode was hardhat and steel toed boots required (which even then wasn't adhered to). But he admits that had she worked in the office, she probably would have been approached about her choice, but again, perhaps because he's male, he didn't really think it was a problem.
-----Added 5/12/2008 at 04 : 58 : 35-----

Originally Posted by Willravel

Thanks. I'm buying that very sweater for a friend of mine for Christmas.

Fair enough. Still, I would imagine that Wal-Mart and Kohl's have thick sweaters, too. I just can't automatically accept the axiom that a woman should absolutely wear a bra in order to be work-appropriate. One of my first girlfriends in high school couldn't stand wearing a bra (unless she was exercising). And it's not like she paraded around in public in a white t-shirt with no bra, either. She just wore slightly thicker clothing.

Without her showing the garment, it's really her thought as to what a "thick sweater" is.
I'm wearing one now but if I was braless, it'd be noticeable.
She also didn't say what size she is, but that wording from her supervisor probably means she's not a small person.
My sisters both could go braless and no one would bat an eye(they couldn't show activity topless on a trampoline LOL). I sure can't.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Without her showing the garment, it's really her thought as to what a "thick sweater" is.

That's all I was ever saying. Without seeing her in the sweater, she could be right and she could be wrong. She could be like you or she could be like your sisters. Without knowing, it's difficult to make a determination.

BTW, this reminded me of an old The Onion article:
Thick Sweater No Match For Determined Nipples | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (possibly NSFW?)

[biznatch]

Originally Posted by mrklixx

Oh man, I was thinking the same thing.

[Bear Cub]

I don't think the thickness of the sweater has any impact. The fact of the matter is that someone could make the distinction with what she had on. I don't care of its a micron thick or an inch thick, it was inadequate.

[Willravel]

Maybe every woman should just wrap her breasts as flat as possible with a long cloth? If we're assuming that it's fine if people openly stare at a woman's chest repeatedly for the sole purpose of judging them by puritanical standards, then why not remove that "distraction"?

[Manic_Skafe]

Honestly, if she can get away with wearing jeans to work then there shouldn't be anything to discuss here. Breasts and nipples aren't offensive and there isn't anything wrong with stretch jeans either.

...

[Bear Cub]

Originally Posted by Willravel

Maybe every woman should just wrap her breasts as flat as possible with a long cloth? If we're assuming that it's fine if people openly stare at a woman's chest repeatedly for the sole purpose of judging them by puritanical standards, then why not remove that "distraction"?

What's that got anything to do with it? We're not talking about going to great lengths here, we're talking about the 2nd most common undergarment known to man. Puritanical standards and a modicum of professionalism are two very different extremes.

Material thickness doesn't mean shit if her breasts are noticeably "unsheathed," which they obviously were if the manager was able to pick up on it, on multiple occasions. I offer her no sympathy. She was given a warning, failed to adhere to it, and the fact that she immediately tries to pass attention off to the "other employees" whom nobody "said anything about" shows a piss-poor attitude and complete lack of professionalism to begin with. There are plenty of people who can see nipples and breasts and have no sentiment towards them, but there are even more people out there who can't. If someone has that big a problem with office culture, then quit and find someplace else. "My house, my rules."

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

What's that got anything to do with it?

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

We're not talking about going to great lengths here, we're talking about the 2nd most common undergarment known to man.

From what source do you derive this?

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

Puritanical standards and a modicum of professionalism are two very different extremes.

A scintilla of professionalism means not staring at a coworker's chest. There can be absolutely no doubt that people are staring at this woman's chest and then discussing it later.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

Material thickness doesn't mean shit if her breasts are noticeably "unsheathed," which they obviously were if the manager was able to pick up on it, on multiple occasions.

So what? Where is it written that without a bra a woman is not work appropriate? It's an extreme and overly prudish idea. As someone that's run two offices, I know it's bullshit. There are absolutely situations in even the most professional office environments that wearing a bra would be optional, and there are certainly garments which can render a bra-less chest perfectly appropriate. Did you even click on the link to the wool sweater I posted?

[Bear Cub]

Underpants = men and women.

Bra = women. Closets and drawers are my source. We'll leave socks out of this on a technicality.


If I walk into work stark naked, should I reprimand coworkers for staring because its unprofessional? If they tell me to put some clothes on, and I strut through the office a second time in my birthday suit, should I get REALLY pissed at them for staring?

As someone who works for a company whose corporate office will fire the men if they show up to work without a tie without warning, I will tell you that your notion that coming to work without undergarments is perfectly acceptable is bullshit. Might fly in the offices of you trendy hipsters with your iPods and your color TV's, but walk into a traditional F500 company corporate office like that, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yes, I saw your sweater. I'm sure you'd look great in it with a set of pumps. Quite frankly, I don't care who wears it. I don't care if Lionel Richie wears it. If this woman wore it, and her jumblies were fumbling around to where it was noticeable, it's inappropriate. Might be a double (D) standard that small chested girls can get away with it, but that's because you can't tell the difference. Tough shit, they're your boobs, learn to get a handle on them.

I'm sure her outfit was far more appropriate than her openly defying her boss' instructions regarding appropriate dress anyways, so I'm not going to debate this any further.

Personally, I think all women should report to work naked. We wouldn't have this problem.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

If I walk into work stark naked, should I reprimand coworkers for staring because its unprofessional?

You're equating not wearing a bra under a thick wool sweater with being nude? You've already lost the debate.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

As someone who works for a company whose corporate office will fire the men if they show up to work without a tie without warning, I will tell you that your notion that coming to work without undergarments is perfectly acceptable is bullshit. Might fly in the offices of you trendy hipsters with your iPods and your color TV's, but walk into a traditional F500 company corporate office like that, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I worked for a "F500" before. When I was 16 I worked at Radioshack. We wore $15 blue dress shirts and $20 khakis.

The interesting thing is that you're equating your tie policy (which is backed up by a official dress code) with an OP that's only a few sentences. We don't know if they have a dress code. We don't even know if she was hired at-will.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

Yes, I saw your sweater. I'm sure you'd look great in it with a set of pumps.

You should probably fantasize about me some other time. And I don't swing that way.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

Quite frankly, I don't care who wears it. I don't care if Lionel Richie wears it. If this woman wore it, and her [breasts] were fumbling around to where it was noticeable, it's inappropriate. Might be a double (D) standard that small chested girls can get away with it, but that's because you can't tell the difference. Tough shit, they're your boobs, learn to get a handle on them.

That's just it, though. One can tell if a woman isn't wearing a bra if her breasts are hanging slightly lower than usual, which isn't inappropriate in the least. This continuing assertion that going braless is always inappropriate is ignoring the fact that many women DO go braless in offices every day without incident.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

I'm sure her outfit was far more appropriate than her openly defying her boss' instructions regarding appropriate dress anyways, so I'm not going to debate this any further.

There's no shame in retiring. It's just a forum.

[MSD]

Originally Posted by Willravel

When I was 16 I worked at Radioshack. We wore $15 blue dress shirts and $20 khakis.

*high fives fellow Radio Shack drone*. I remember those awful days before I had any fashios sense and probably looked like I was wearing a tent.


Edit: it's a bit odd that we're almost the same age and when I worked there at age 18 the minimum age was 18 according to company policy. You're not getting senile in your old age, are you?

[Willravel]

I'm 100% sure I was 16 because I went out with coworkers for my 17th birthday (we went to the runs in Milpitas, when street racing was still pure) only a few months after I started working there. Most places around here hire at 16. It might be a state law issue. I was at store #3227 on Branham Ln. My manager's name was Mike. He wore a $15 dress shirt and $20 khakis, too.

That's not to say I'm not senile, though.

[mixedmedia]

This seems like a pretty silly thing to argue about. After all, we have no real facts about what happened. Seems to be one person's account of what happened to them personally. Badly drawn.

It would seem sensible to abide by the prevailing sensibilities in one's work environment to a reasonable extent. That said, I have no way of knowing what those prevailing sensibilities are or anything about the situation between this woman and her boss. It's hard to say who is right and who is wrong. What's more, I don't really care.

For the record, Friday is 'jeans day' in the office I work in and, believe me, there is no shortage of men walking around in tight jeans and t-shirts...and I mean tight...it's the company culture. Still, I manage to put in a 6-hour day (it's my short day). I don't buy for a second this bit about loose boobies disrupting work. Sheesh. Grow up.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I don't buy for a second this bit about loose boobies disrupting work. Sheesh. Grow up.

Hallelujah.

[genuinegirly]

Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe

... and there isn't anything wrong with stretch jeans either...

Nothing wrong with stretch jeans?
Maybe you've only seen women with an ideal physique wearing them.

[Willravel]

Yeah, stretch jeans are also a case by case kinda thing. Better to have real jeans that fit.

[mixedmedia]

I don't see how you can regulate 'stretch jeans.' If a company has a jeans-friendly policy then they must allow jeans regardless of their fiber content.

After all, the issue isn't how good the woman looks without her bra on, but the principle of wearing or not wearing one, am I right?

Or should I leave now?

[mrklixx]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Or should I leave now?

Depends. Are you wearing a bra?

[Ayashe]

I wouldn't find this appropriate in a workplace, would you? Would this truly be a double-standard to say that nipple show would be so discriminatory?



For the record, my employer has always had an undergarment policy. It was stated that "appropriate undergarments must be worn." Where I work scrubs are fairly standard(and they are not made of very thick fabric) and I have always taken it to mean that you shouldn't be wearing hot pink underwear beneath your white pants. Though the policy certainly did allow management to step in and say something if something was found to be inappropriate. I actually have gone braless at work (on a rare occasion) I had an instance where I had this horribly uncomfortable rash that would have made it pure hell to have a bra on. I made certain that I had on other clothing beneath my clothing that prevented nipple show and certainly no one would have thought I was dressed inappropriately.

Of course the approach that a manager makes to you would certainly make all of the difference in the world. If done incorrectly I could imagine a sexual harassment suit occurring, I would think a great deal of professionalism would be called for.