Don't worry, it's not your fault you can't stop eating.
 

From: FOXNews.com - Obesity 'Virus' Spreads Like Common Cold, Scientists Say - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News

Obesity can be "caught" as easily as a common cold from other people's coughs, sneezes and dirty hands, scientists said Monday.

The condition has been linked to a highly-infectious virus which causes sniffles and sore throats.

Nikhil Dhurandhar, an associate professor at The Pennington Biomedical Research Center, in Baton Rouge, La., said the virus, known as AD-36, infects the lungs then whisks around the body, forcing fat cells to multiply and also causing sore throats.

"When this virus goes to fat tissue it replicates, making more copies of itself and in the process increases the number of new fat cells, which may explain why the fat tissue expands and why people get fat when they are infected with this virus," Dhurandhar said.

In one test, a third of obese people had the rare and highly contagious virus compared to just 11 percent of thinner people. Weight gain can last three months until the body has built up resistance to the bug.

New research supports earlier theories from studies on weight gain; evidence in tests on mice and chickens shows the bug could cause overweight people to gain weight.


"People could be fat for reasons other than viral infections, so it’s pointless for fat people to try to avoid infection," said Dhurandhar.

The study also reveals research claiming dieters always feel hungry because humans have a "natural body weight" and they will always suffer hunger pangs.

The Pennington Biomedical Research Center, a campus of the Louisiana State University system, conducts both clinical and basic research. Its mission is to promote healthier lives through research and education in nutrition and preventive medicine.



Thoughts anybody? Personally I think this is the perfect excuse for the weight I have put on since the Holidays.

You've been FOX News'd!

(bites into a Snickers) I tell ya, that virus is horrible. (swallows a Baby Ruth)

...

Slims: Is that some kind of ultra-reinforced chair or what? It isn't sagging under the immense weight of the viral victim carefully perched atop it.

The virus packs on a special kind of fat that is 4 times less dense than normal fat. Jeez Crompsin don't you know anything?

I doubt it's ultra-reinforced. Why go to the bother of reinforcing it for overweight people, but not widen it?

As to the fat virus, that's freaky.

Oh man, that picture revived a memory I had stored away since elementary school in Ohio. A couple sitting on similar chairs, both of them offering this same shape from behind, with a large portion of visible crack.
I wish you hadn't posted it. :eek:

This is one of those half-assed medical studies (no pun intended)...

I'm willing to entertain the notion that there is a virus that has weight-gain as a side effect, evolutionarily, it would make sense. But, the question is, if you treat those people with anti-virals, will they not get fat? Is there any way to test myself to see if I have it and am not fat? I've had plenty of sore throats before from all the sick kids I went to school with.

Or is this just a study that overweight people can point to and say "it's not my fault, I have this virus".

Or... I'll say it... Are we going to round up everyone that has this virus and send them the to the quarantine camps, make them pin a yellow biohazard sign on their shirts http://www.internationalpbi.com/docs..._Biohazard.jpg, and eat really bad food (to make them lose weight). Maybe we'll make them take the train there...
Yup, I'm going to hell.

It seems like enabling to remove personal responsibility from the equation. I've been to a few NA meetings and they do the same thing, claiming that at least in some way you're not responsible for your actions. It's stupid.

If you want to stop being fat, you have to do it. You have to change your diet to something more healthy and you have to exercise. Your genes aren't going to stop you from picking up a cucumber instead of a Snickers when your at Safeway. A virus isn't going to stop you from doing some push-ups or walking around the block. A virus certainly isn't making you sit in front of the teevee for 4 hours a night.

But that's the thing, I can be lazy and eat whatever I want (even buffets), and I won't gain a pound. I sit in front of computers for 8 hours a day at work, and then for 8 more at home a lot of days. Yet, I can see my rib cage.

I'm not ready to dismiss this virus theory just yet, and I would like to see work done towards a vaccine against it to see what the impact on obesity rates would be.

Is it genes since my Dad is skinny (maybe my genes prevent me from getting this virus though), metabolism, what I eat, the level of exercise I do? This is enough of a world-wide problem that I think it should be getting a lot more research done on any lead like this that comes up.

"The virus, known as AD-36, is also known as Universal Fat People Excuse #1."

The point is that I've never seen someone dedicate him or herself to real diet and exercise program and not see results. The people that don't see results generally are at the very least inconsistent with diet and exercise. Many, many people start diets and then stop them after a few weeks, citing a lack of results (I call this ADS, or American Dieter Syndrome). I have a family history of obesity, and yet my little brother and I are both in great shape and we both work hard. According to my doctor, I've likely increased my life expectancy by 15 years from diet and exercise alone. Baring an unforeseeable helicopter crash, that is.

While I'm glad that you don't have to deal with obesity, ASU, being stagnant all day and eating rubbish will catch up with you. Being skinny does not necessarily mean you're healthy. Just as a suggestion, you may want to at least try to squeeze in like 30 minutes a day of exercise.

BULL-S.

Man, what's next? No more "Night of the Living Dead"...

Now it'll be "Night of the Living Fatasses".

Come on people, it's your own damn fault.

Look at the stats from the original article.

About 1 in 10 have the virus but don't get fat.

About 3 in 10 have the virus and do get fat.

That means that 7 in 10 fat people do not have the virus, and 1 in 4 people with the virus don't get fat.

This is neither an explanation of 70% of obesity, nor a cause of it in 25% of infections.

Nobody has published anything about the direction of the causality in this case. At school 20 years ago I was taught that one of the side effects of obesity was a less effective immune system; could it be that rather than proving "This virus makes you 3 times more likely to get fat" all they've done is prove "fat people are 3 times more likely to get this virus".

not to mention that the infection can last only up to 3 months. I have never seen anyone go from fit to morbidly obese in 3 months.

(Actually I do exercise a lot right now and eat 90% healthy foods)

But, you guys are being pretty harsh on this small study because it doesn't fit your belief that people need to work hard to maintain a proper weight. I am willing to hear out these researchers and hope their discovery can lead to a better life for lots of people. Just because we have been told that diet and exercise are the only way to lose weight, doesn't mean that there isn't a medical problem that makes their body work against them.

Where was the part of this study where the virus caused their bodies to violate the laws of mass and energy?

Calories in - Calories used = Calories Stored.

And I eat bran cereal for breakfast most days, vegetables for lunch, an apple or banana for a snack between meals, and soup/some sort of non fatty meat for supper; I work out every single day for 30 minutes minimum, yet I'm still fat. I've lost 75 pounds by eating differently and exercising but I am still fat. What does this say?

A friend of mine in high school did nothing. He sat around playing StarCraft all the time and watched TV and DVDs. No exercise, no sports, no activity at all. A total couch potato. The worst part is that everyday at school he would eat 2-3 slices of pepperoni pizza, a chocochip cookie, choco milk, and french fries with ranch for lunch every.day.of.the.week. Guess how fat he was? He wasn't. MAYBE 120 pounds, ribcage status. Anyone who says that all skinny people MADE themselves skinny through hardwork are bullshitting you. Yes lots and lots of them are skinny through self control and hard work but some of them aren't. That being said, some people are fat even through hardwork and self control.

Now as for it being a virus? Lawl. I think it can be genetic but it's not some disease. Ahh what I am talking about, I don't have any clue, I just know about people like you and my friend and people like me and my brother who work hard at being healthy and despite all efforts are still fat.

The virus we need to fight in America is "AD-37: The Self Control Sapper."

Hamburger brings up a good point. Is it possible that this virus could animate dead tissue along with multiplying fat cells? It's a valid concern, imho.
-----Added 27/1/2009 at 12 : 34 : 29-----
That's good, but you may have mischaracterized your lifestyle before.
I wouldn't call it a belief that people need to work hard to maintain proper health, I'd call it an understanding. It's not dogmatic gospel, it's based on a lot of science and a lot of experience. There may very well be a virus that multiplies fat cells, but let's just be honest: some overweight people will use that as an excuse. It's enabling to provide people with excuses.

Protip: Shoot them in the head or they might burst.

What about this "virus" being a side effect of being fat?? I'm sure there are plenty of viruses out there that could cause all kinds of problems. Even if this were true though. How do you explain the people that gain wight, year after year with no drop in weight. I went through a time when my metabolism dropped, and I was ill or having surgery frequently. I ended up with a quite rapid weight gain. The key there is that I didn't CONTINUE to gain weight and I even lost some of it. No one should be able to use this as an excuse for being more so exteremly obese that they can't walk. Yeah right, they're sick.
This is a worse excuse than being genetically prone to being overweight. I'm genetically prone to being diabetic, overweight, alcoholic, having hypothyroidism and having arthritis. I only have a little arthritis in my hands and I'm only about 5 lbs overweight. I take care of my hands, I avoid refined sugar, I watch how much junk food I eat, and I avoid too much alcohol or even avoid drinking too often. People who are grossly obese have NO excuse for STAYING that way.

What if they're not guided by their head but their constantly-growling stomach?

...

Is this virus also responsible for that disgusting fat person smell? (j/k)

oh yay.
another thread where you guys get to lord your contempt and ridicule all over fat people.
what's it about a 3-month cycle you're on?

Is it 3 months?

And I thought they'd have moved on to alcoholics and depressives by now.

* * * * *

But, yeah, it's good they're doing work nailing down the number of causes of (or underlying reasons for) obesity. Because, you know, it isn't just about not being able to put the fork down because you never get up from your seat next to the buffet table.

We ARE alcoholics and depressives.

...

MixedMedia:

Call me bitter and unenlightened, but I'd be willing to bet (within 2 standard deviations seems safe) that the obesity in the United States is caused by weak-minded individuals who make poor decisions. Personal responsibility? You betcha. We have a truckload of junk food on every corner in this country and people stupid enough to call it sustenance. Boredom and complacency and the new universal god called TeeVee = pointless eating.

Genetics, physical conditions, whatever... that's sad and we deal with it but that isn't close to the main reason: eating too much garbage.

For every jerk like me that's saying, "Control yourself!" we have another person (most likely a jerk as well) that says, "It's not their fault!"

We sit on opposite ends of the continuum and continue to watch as our society kills itself with a fuckin' spoon.

it'd be good to avert yet another noxious little display of self-righteousness about obesity. you know, exercise some of that self-control you're so sure you're full of and push yourself away from that feast of idiotic things that you might say.

you can do it.

The weight of your opinion is crushing me.

Of course! It's so simple!

And you're not even wearing a lab coat....

Should we burn these to the ground?

http://blog.news-record.com/staff/ch...ry%20Store.jpg

Well, it's true. There seems to be no end to the excesses in our society that are killing us, either literally or metaphorically. It's easy to make fun of fat people because you can see their weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I've yet to meet a person who doesn't have them, though.

I don't know. I've known a lot of people who could, as the above poster states, eat day and night and not gain a thing. Literally have trouble maintaining weight. Why is that so easily accepted as a genetic or medical reason? While extra weight is almost always seen as "their fault?" My Ex brother-in-law saw several doctors due to his inability to gain weight. I'll bet he's 5'11" and under #140. Doc had him eating 3 times a day and drinking some high calorie shake thing 2 times a day. Last I saw he never gained a ounce. I worked with a guy who ate crap all night long (swing shift.) I asked him one night if he only ate at work, thought maybe he did that because meals were free at work. It was jail type food, but free. He said no, why? Turns out he'd had the lunch buffet at Pizza Hut that afternoon. If he ate there like he ate at work I'd be surprised if he didn't put them out of business. I've also known people who were over weight and didn't seem to eat jack shit, never loose a pound.

I do know overweight people are treated differently then slim people. Society, for whatever reason, responds much more positively to what's considered attractive then what's not. I've seen studies where people with just a less attractive face are treated less fairly then those with an attractive one. People will assign negative thoughts to less attractive people. Shit like the guy with the oddly shaped nose is more likely to steal. WTF?

I've always been pretty active and my body responds well to exercise and eating well. But after an injury a few years back I ended up on my back for what amounted to nearly two years. I packed on a lot of weight. When I first got out and started doing stuff again I noticed right away a difference in the way people responded to me. Same people, completely different reaction. I remember going to buy gas and stopping at a place where I'd regularly bought gas. Same lady at the cashier stand. Used to laugh and trade jokes with her. She didn't even make eye contact with me. And it wasn't just women, same type reaction from guys too. Luckily for me when I hit the gym it comes off. I'll probably never be where I was when I got hurt but people make eye contact with me now. But I know my body and I know how it reacts with different fuels and activity levels. I have no idea how someone else' system works. I think it's bull shit to assign how your body and system works to others.

Are all fat people over eaters and lazy? I don't think so. But I also don't think everyone I see that's thin as a rail is a heroin addict or too poor to buy food.

This needs to be reposted and reposted and reposted.
Every time another of these nasty, smug, judgemental,
'let's bash fat people' threads rises its zombie head once again,
I lose all respect for the people who seem like they can't help but
to post this same, cruel, vitriolic, crap...over and over again.

..and yes MM, it does seem to be a three month kinda deal.

Where did I mention grocery stores? Turns out I don't need a lab coat to look out the window and see:
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/im...0721183118.jpg

At no point did I say the problem was simple or that I had some solution.

We all have opinions and I voiced mine. No need to be rude. I believe that goes against high and mighty principles.

Society has "learned" to accept some things and yet dismisses, ignores, or rejects others without much thought.

http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/pho.../obesity_3.jpg

You're lording your contempt over and ridiculing people that are voicing legitimate concerns regarding people's health. Or do you believe that the cause of helping people overcome obesity is just about ridicule?
Obesity is a "weakness" or "vulnerability" that one can help, which is the issue. Virtually anyone can help being fat. One can become unfat through hard work. Those that remain fat and complain about it or try to make excuses about it aren't healthy.

This study takes the focus away from proactive, successful options for obese people, and the article mischaracterized the study. Obesity cannot be "caught" at all. Viruses multiplying fat cells do not necessarily create more total mass. If one is leading a healthy lifestyle, their body regularly burns fat. The only way one can catch "fat" is if the virus is able to multiply fat faster than the body can burn it, and nothing in the study or the article suggested that.

Most people are fat because they don't try to be not fat, this is true. What I hate is when people generalize skinny people as being healthy and in control and fat people with being unhealthy and out of control. Being fat and healthy and in control, it burns me up to hear people saying that I'm out of control and don't try. Some people are born with great metabolism and some aren't. This is a fact. If it's not a fact then explain how my high school friend that I mentioned above isn't 300 pounds.

Yes. There are plenty of unhealthy "skinny" people. They don't exercise any more than overweight people, they simply starve themselves to stay thin. In doing such they also deprive their bodies of the necessary nutrients to be healthy.

Eating iceberg lettuce and saltines two meals a day with a chicken salad for dinner is a great way to get scurvy.

The problem in America, based on the numbers, is that we have a lot of people who eat too much of the wrong kind of food items and a society that has learned to accept it. Those that are far more worldly than I should know the rest of the world isn't nearly as bad.

Something is wrong when I go into a store and can't find trousers in 32x34 because the racks for men are loaded with 36x32 and 38x32.

You're absolutely right. Some skinny people are in absolutely horrible shape. Some people that are slightly overweight are in great shape.
What do you mean fat and healthy? Low blood pressure, regular cholesterol, regular blood sugar, and under 33% body fat percentage? Great. If you've got higher blood pressure, higher cholesterol, or are over 33% body fat, though, calling one's self healthy wouldn't be correct.

I didn't say you did, nor did you have to.

I wasn't trying to be rude; I'm often susceptible to the tone of a thread. Sorry if I came across that way. I merely wanted you to carry on with your train of thought to say what the implications were.

This may be true, but I'm not sure what you're talking about here. What is dismissed, ignored, or rejected...could you explain what you mean?

I think it might be difficult to have 32%+ body fat and avoid high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

I agree, but it's not impossible. When people are losing weight, sometimes the blood pressure and cholesterol drop off faster than the fat. And, of course, some people have bad genes for fat and good genes for cholesterol.

Did you read my posts above? What about this guy who didn't starve himself to stay thin with iceberg lettuce:

What is there to say about this?

If your friend continues, he could have heart disease and diabetes in his future. You don't have to be fat to be unhealthy.

Right but we are talking about being fat. Why isn't this guy fat? I eat bran cereal for breakfast, a banana and protein drink at 10, 250 calorie soup at lunch, an apple at 3, and then a vegetable and meat combo for supper. I also workout 30 minutes minimum per day. I am fat. This guy isn't. How is that explained?

While I generally agree with you Crompsin, I will take issue with your usage of BMI as evidence. The science(there is none, go figure) behind Body Mass Indexing is a load of crap. It was created as a statistical device before the turn of the 20th Century. It does not take into account lean muscle mass, nor does it take into account body structure. It's use is one of the things that irritates me with the whole "anti-fat" crowd (for lack of a better term).

Metabolism efficiency due to genetics. Some people are born into a body that can metabolize high calorie foods more efficiently than others. This doesn't make them immune to other effects of bad foods, but it can mean that this person will have a lower body fat percentage despite poor diet and little to no exercise.

It's not fair, I know. I myself have genes that require a lot of dieting and exercising. With only moderate dieting and 30 minutes a day of exercising, I'd be about 220 lbs. with a gut. With little to no exercise and poor diet, I'd likely be in the 260s.
-----Added 28/1/2009 at 03 : 36 : 58-----
Yeah, body fat percentage is a better method of measuring fat than BMI.

Wow, someone that finally agrees with me.

This is what I have been saying for years and years and most people want to flat out refuse to believe it.

Two people that eat the same thing everyday and yet one is fat and one isn't. That is very important data. Using that data you could conclude that a fat person may not eat themselves into oblivion, they may eat the same thing as you but simply have bad metabolism efficiency due to genetics.
-----Added 28/1/2009 at 03 : 48 : 31-----
Low Blood Pressure = Check
Regular Cholesterol = Check
Regular Blood Sugar = Check
Under 33% Body fat = well, I don't know mine, but my twin brother's is around 20% and I am in better shape than he is.

No, if you're fat, you're unhealthy. It doesn't go both ways. There's no one that looks like John Goodman on the outside and is built like Lance Armstrong on the inside. If you're over 33% body fat, you're overweight and if you're over (I think) 40%, you're obese.
Then you're not fat. 20% bod fat is average, healthy.

How am I not fat but I have a gigantic gut that I've had since I was 6 months old? When people see me they think "fat guy." I don't hide it because it's true.

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...83025_2167.jpg

I don't think you're less than 20% body fat. I'd guess you're around 24-25%. What does your exercise routine look like?

Oh, and I was wrong before. In men body fat percentage above 25% in men is obese. 18-25% is acceptable to overweight, 14-17% is fit, 6-13% is athletes. It's different for men and women.
http://www.healthchecksystems.com/bodyfat.htm

Lasereth, do you have a large stature? (ie. When you place your index finger and thumb around your wrist, do they touch?)

You look like you're an endomorph. You aren't supposed to be "skinny."

I'd say you're looking good. :thumbsup:

That's real cool, will, but you don't have to go further than the title of this thread to see the tone that was established and how it was acceptable to react to the topic. Most of comments made here do not fall into the category of 'legitimate.'

I don't see it as an unreasonable interpretation of how some might interpret the article, though. They'll graze through it, miss the fact that the virus likely only lasts 3 months, and then think they're fat because they caught it.

It's not illegitimate to make it clear that there are clear and proven causes for being overweight and there are clear and proven methods to become lean and healthy.

All of the fat people I know, know exactly how they got fat and why they stay that way. Sorry, but I see these threads as opportunistic avenues for judgment based on the specious assumption that most fat people deny why they are fat. Fat people are fat, not stupid.

There's a difference between being in denial and being stupid, and you know that. All you have to do is look at sales of the Hollywood Diet (drinking fruit juice for 48 days and supposedly losing 10 lbs.), the cabbage diet (eating almost nothing but cabbage soup for a week, lose 10 lbs.), the Master Cleanse (nothing but lemonade for 10-40 days), and it becomes frighteningly clear that many, many people are confused and are making bad decisions due to denial and a lack of education on health. I'm glad none of your friends apparently fit into that statistics, but maybe, just maybe, there are some people that need to hear "eat right and exercise" now and again to put them on or keep them on the right track. It's not a judgment party, it's an attempt at a solution.

But if they are attempting to diet, then obviously they understand that they are fat and what the reason for that is, right? Where is the denial? Denial of the proper method of losing weight?
That has not been the issue at hand in much of this thread and its not what I've been responding to.
-----Added 28/1/2009 at 05 : 07 : 19-----
I think you are confusing the very common tendency for people to look for an easy way out of their problems with denial.

Denial of what's making them fat and how to deal with it would be what I'm referring to. If you think you're fat because of a virus, then you may not choose diet and exercise as a remedy. If you think you're fat because you're big-boned/endomorphic/etc., you may think there's nothing you can do. If you think you're fat because it's genetic (which is possible), you may not know that it could be as simple as a slight diet and exercise change to become a much healthier shape.

Whenever you talk about obesity or fat, it makes sense that the conversation can turn towards causes and remedies. The thread title was, through sarcasm, pointing out that a virus isn't really an excuse for being fat and it won't likely lead you to a solution. In doing so, he was attempting to eliminate something that could facilitate denial (which I called enabling above).


Just so we're clear, I don't think any overweight or obese people are stupid, or even gullible. Having been overweight, though, I know things can be difficult. There are a lot of distractions and red herrings just waiting to prey on you at the first sign of wavering from a path to good health. It's not all healthy options like Jenny Craig or Men's Health; there are a lot of bad options disguised as good options out there, and denial of the real path to good health—diet and exercise—can facilitate giving into the temptation of a false hope.

You're bouncing all over the place here, will, and I don't appreciate it.
I have neither the need nor the inclination to dance with you.

Didn't medical researchers in the 50's say that close dancing could contribute to unwanted pregnancies. This sounds like the same lunacy.

I'm sorry to have offended you, but that wasn't my intent. I'm trying to figure out why I, among others, am being accused of ridicule.
What an odd thing to say.

What gets me about people who are obese, is that they constantly make excuses for their weight. I have RARELY heard someone who's skinny complain that they need to gain weight. Now, I realize that some skinny people have the tendency to OVERcontrol how much they eat and are obsessed with being thin. BUT they're not complaining about their extra weight, or making excuses, or complaining that the airplane seats aren't made to fit them(or in their case have too little padding so that their bones hurt their ass when they sit), or complaining that they just can't do this or that because their too tired, feet hurt, ankles are swollen, or other numerous problems that come with obesity.

I have to be extremely careful about what I eat just to maintain a 22% BMI and I have to exercise. There are so many people out there though who try to make excuses instead of getting up off their butt and TRYING to loose a little weight.

I worked on a house last summer installing new siding. The homeowners were getting a grant from the state to winterize their home. The husband had a part time job but nothing more. MOST of the time we were working on the house the two homeowners were sitting in the livingroom watching TV in the middle of a filthy house with garbage everywhere and a coating of dust on everything that looked as if it had been several years since anything had been cleaned. I mean, after replacing a window and vacuuming up our mess, the floor under the window was worlds cleaner than the rest of the carpeting anywhere else. EVERY time I walked through their livingroom I saw them with a bag of chips, soda (the man was drinking from a LITER bottle, not a glass), or many other kinds of junk food. One day the two of them devored 2 frozen pizzas for lunch and complained that they were still hungry. Oh poor them, they're starving, getting money from the government and can't bother to take their dog for a walk around the block even. Too many people behave like that - they just HAPPEN to be fat too, because of it. I think that's the reason that healthy people complain about people who are overweight. The majority of people who are overweight are not that way because of anything other than their own choices. In fact I have a friend who had a portion of her thyroid removed because of problems she was having. Now she has to take thyroid hormones to maintain a normal energy level. She isn't the least bit fat but only because she exercises daily and doesn't overindulge.

This victim mentality, even to the point of complaining that people pick on your because of something, is way out of hand. When will these 'victims' start taking some responsibility for their choices?

This makes me violent and I totally agree.

We accept people who are handicapped because they had no say in their condition. Getting hit by a car and put in a wheelchair? That sucks. Let me help you.

Now we also accept people who are handicapped because they're conveyor belts and storage units of fat calories.

We're not self-righteous assholes for disapproving of the former. It's not much different than the feeling associated crackheads. You wish they would straighten up their act, get some help, etc.

It's easy for the "You're just another fat-people hater!" types to assume that we're referring to everybody who is overweight. Not true. Just the bored gelatinous spoon tyrants.

...

I'm wondering where the "food addict" point is floating around. I want to compare to heroin addicts to Ben 'n Jerry's addicts in this thread.

...

Somebody with a college education explain to me why Japanese adults and America adults have drastically different waistlines. We're all human, right?

Fair comments, but I'm uncertain about where you're going. I hope it doesn't get as far as my having to say it's like telling depressed people to lighten the fuck up.

What are you getting at? You know this isn't just about physiology and simple food choices, right?

Culture and diet usually have strong links to one another. Just look at omega-3 content alone.

the world health organization points to two major causes of obesity rates globally--which have drastically increased over the past decade or so:

there's alot more here:
WHO | Obesity

naturally, when the initial who reports came out, the bush administration had a Problem with it because it points to structural factors, many of which are directly linked to the american industrial food system and to changes in work and transportation that are linked to the "american way of life"---instead, the bush people preferred to talk in terms not unlike many of the folk above--structural factors are neutral, and it's all a matter of atttitude blah blah blah.

but that's bullshit.
of course, thinking in terms of structural factors tends to short circuit the fun and excitement of self-righteous blather---but maybe that blather is really little more than that--mixed with an avoidance of difficult problems that lead to kinda important questions (like does the american industrial food model, in its subordination of food production to profit maximization, really make sense?) in favor of a kind of nitwit empiricism, so that only what's in front of your face is real.

Yes, but healthy food isn't scarce, rb. It's not like the only options available to us are full of high fructose corn syrup or deep fried in processed animal fats. Sure, we get advertisements shoved down our throats, but we also get tons of advertisements and product placement for American cars and those don't seem to dictate our shopping.

In other words, while the "structural factors" do come into play, I don't think they're the primary reason.

I have never struggled with my weight but I think I was born that way. My entire family is thin and healthy.

One problem with overweight people, especially the ones I have known is that they are either disinterested in the quality of the food they should eat or are so trained to stuff themselves that they rarely enjoy their food. Eating is a means to an end until the fridge door opens again.

This "full" mentality is just something very foreign to my way of thinking. The need to always feel full drives these people. It is something like smoking. When I quit several years ago, once and a while I would get a craving. But instead of lighting up, I knew the urge would pass. If people ate normal amounts instead of stuffing themselves, the stomach will shrink to accomodate only the food which is needed.

I think obesity and boredom go hand in hand as well. If you are sitting and waiting around until your next feed time, you are going to expand. No one exercises these days. Just walking 20 minutes a day is a start on the right road. But when the boredom sets in, so does the laziness.

I know some people have medical conditions and can't help their weight. I work with a woman who does nothing but bitch about her weight. Oddly enough, it is everyone elses problem that she is obese except herself. "The cafeteria serves only fatty foods", umm the salad bar is only about 40 feet long- turn your freakin' head in that direction. "My husband does the shopping", so tell him to buy the food you want to eat to put an effort forth. "I can't exercise because my doctor said it could bring on a stroke", yawn- well then keep eating.

So fat people who are tidy and don't drink out of 2L bottles are okay?

If these people were thin it would be okay?

Why is the fact that these people are fat even relevant?

rb makes a very important point when he mentions the misguided importance of 'what you see in front of your face.' Obesity is an issue for most people only because of what they see - and the stereotypes they ascribe to what they see. If a thin person drinks out of a milk jug or a 2L bottle it is uncouth, at worst. If a fat person does it, it is repulsive and indicative of something more than just a bad habit. It is simply not fair and is the same sort of thinking that leads to racism, sexism and all other sorts of prejudicial -isms.

And the bottom line is, as always - it's none of your damn business anyway. (That is the collective you.)

that depends entirely on where you are, both geographically and economically.
this applies not only within the united states, but in the world.
obesity is not only an american problem. it's global.
and this is pretty basic.

the problem with confronting these facts is that it undercuts the self-righteousness, which starts from the assumption that everywhere is just like where you are--so that the same range of alternatives you have are everywhere. that's obvious false.

the second is that the economic position you occupy is universal. that's just goofy.

the third is that the way you are is the way everyone should be, so that any "failing" can be judged easily. this is a variant of the others, and is only worth noting because it seems to be the sanctimoniousness generator.

i'm not going to bother to connect the dots.

So you're suggesting that fat people don't have access to healthy foods? Economically, I've already had the debate about how unhealthy food is cheaper. It's not. I'm more than willing to demonstrate that again. The assumption then falls to location. Well, there are more obese people in the US than anywhere else on the planet. Are you suggesting that people in the US don't have access to healthy foods? How is it that they can have access to unhealthy foods and not have access to healthy foods? Even 7/11 has sandwiches with lean meats an veggies on wheat bread. Even McDonalds has salads that you don't have to eat the dressing with. Where are these mystery locations where people only have access to unhealthy foods?
I don't think it's honest to call obesity a global problem. Obesity is really only common among westernized cultures, and it's really only a problem in the US, Mexico, and the UK, namely the US.
Assuming that obesity is a global problem assumes that everywhere is like we are, which isn't the case. But most places with any kind of media do have advertisements for McDonalds and Pepsi, just like the US. If you don't believe me, we can travel to Italy, Japan, and other places that don't have high obesity rates.
No one should be like me. One is more than enough.

People should, though, take responsibility for their health, and it's not some horrible intrusion of privacy to point out that some people are obese and they should do something about it. It's not ridicule to say "You have a fault, and you should do this about it".

It's a global problem.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ity_gr_men.gif

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...y_gr_women.gif

WHO :: Global Database on Body Mass Index

this should be accessible for free---i think it is anyway:

Dietary Implications of Supermarket Development: A Global Perspective
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...29500/PDFSTART

I was just browsing this. And before someone says "BMI isn't an accurate measure for body fat," look at the data on this site. The BMI makeup of these nations aren't reflecting thousands of bodybuilders; you can see data of the changes in diet over the past 30+ years. Many nations have seen an increase in average daily calories by as much as 750 calories within 20 years. Some go as high as 3,000 calories/day. That's an average. Look at China alone since the '70s. They've nearly doubled their average calories. And these extra calories aren't coming mainly from rice...it's sugar, fats, oils, eggs, meat, etc.

You can see data like this for nations around the world. Look at changes in BMI over time.

If you think obesity isn't becoming an increasing global problem, look again.

i added the article on supermarkets while you were posting, baraka...it's also interesting.

Thanks. I don't have the time to look at all that yet, but I'm intrigued.

If you had been in Japan for a long time, you would have noticed the increase in the numbers of fat people, especially fat kids. When i was young, i did not see fat kids in Japan.

Of course, you can chalk that up to an increase in the Moral Deficiency Index, but looking for the changes in how and what people eat the last 40 years might give some clues as to how to address the problem.

just in case it doesn't work, here's the cite:


Corinna Hawkes: Dietary Implications of Supermarket Development: A Global Perspective
in Development Policy Review, Volume 26, Issue 6 (p 657-692)

here's the main page for the journal, so there's an alternate way to navigate to the piece:
Development Policy Review - Journal Information

First, that's based on BMI, not body fat percentage. Second, the US is missing.

The U.S. is worse than average, you can be sure.

WHO :: Global Database on Body Mass Index

Take the time to have a look. The U.S. is in there.

I was there in 2002, and there weren't anywhere near as many obese people as there are here. And the SF Bay Area is generally ranked among the more healthy places.

The last time I went to Fresno, I didn't see anyone that wasn't overweight, and I was there for a few days. And Fresno is surrounded by healthy produce. Geography and economics may factor in to some small degree on some places, but I cannot accept that they are primary causes for obesity.
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That was my point. If the US is more obese, and we clearly have more access to produce than others due to location and economics, I have to say that disproves the theory that geography and economics are the deciding factors when it comes to obesity.

Will, you're assuming the U.S. is homogenized when it comes to geography and economics.

No, I'm asking for something more than just "you're wrong, Will" when I say that people have access to healthy foods.

People aren't "homogenized" on my block, even. We have several millionaire neighbors and several low income neighbors. We all manage to get food, though, and the poor and rich each have access to healthy foods. Is it the same healthy foods? Not necessarily. I suspect that the more affluent shop at Trader Joe's and I've bumped into them at Whole Foods, but I've also bumped into a neighbor at the Safeway around the corner, where food is a lot cheaper. Still, Safeway still carries healthy foods. And cheap healthy foods. You can get a huge bag of lentils for practically nothing. Where in the US are you cut off from access to lentils? Or canned fruits and veggies? Or even frozen fruits and veggies?

it's not that you're entirely wrong, will--it's just that the position you're arguing is way too simple, and that this is a kinda fucked up thread for a serious discussion on this question because it departs from that loopy faux-news story about the "fat virus"...

when i have some time, i'll see if i can find the study on the supermarket geography in the states, particularly in urban areas---the article i posted to references it and other materials---fact is that peoples's choices are differentially constrained, that it's simply not the case that everyone has the same kind of access to a range of types of food. it simply isn't the case in the united states.

the problems of supermarkets (you know, mainstream ones) and their intertwining with the industrial food system is another central issue--on that the article above is quite good. and it's good on the consequences of that. again, what folk *can* choose between is differentially constrained--there's no one-size-fits-all explanation.

and this is a global problem. if you look at it in more global terms, the structural features emerge pretty clearly and function to situate--and to a significant extent diminsh the role of--the moral impairment arguments that seem so popular in these threads.

this isn't to say that there are no people whose choices are not the driver behind obesity--but it is to say that you have to think in more complex ways about obesity--and treat it as a social problem---not to fall into the all-too-easy trap of reducing it to one or another version of a matter of "will"---all that's changed from one end of the thread to this one is that the language of that argument has become a bit more polite, and so the space is now not so repellent that folk who oppose that "explanation" are not inclined to provide other information.

what you do with it is up to you, of course.

and there's alot more information available. this isn't an easy problem. it really isnt.

I dunno. TFP is good at squeezing good conversations out of loopy articles.
I'm not suggesting everyone has the same access to the same food, only that regardless of income and geography, at least in the US, you do have access to at least some healthy options. It's simply a matter of choosing these options on a regular basis.

And exercise, which every able-bodied person has access to.
But again I have to ask, can you demonstrate this? Can you demonstrate that there are areas that simply offer absolutely no healthy solutions for food? Even in some of the poorest places in the US, like Detroit, you can still get plenty of canned and frozen produce. Anything from spinach to peas to pears to raspberries, all rich in nutrients and low in harmful stuff like saturated fats and over processed sweeteners.
If you're talking about the unhealthy foods industrial complex, you're right, it is a global problem, but so far as solutions go, most people have the option of skipping the fried crisps and going with a carrot.
Wouldn't it make sense to tackle the main causes of obesity first and then move on to more minor causes? You yourself said that the main causes of obesity are simple, quoting the WHO:
These are the big ones. These are your main contenders for the cause of obesity, whether just in the US or even globally. Knock these out, get people eating healthier foods and moving around more, and then we can move on to the other, more complex, less central causes.

the article i posted earlier is quite good on the relations between the supermarket model (which it defines) and the first of the who's claims as to cause. if you have a chance, read that. it makes the case i am making better than i can--and points to the main solution--which is a wholesale reorientation of how food is produced and the systems of distribution. i think it's entirely doable, but until that's taken seriously as a problem, obesity and it's related health issues are not going to stop and telling people to exercise isn't going to mean a whole lot.

the second problem is also far bigger than how folk choose to organize their leisure time. think about it.

i think you're flipping major/minor around to keep your earlier arguments consistent with the position you're arguing now--which is fine i suppose. but there are the relatively superficial things one can address--and you seem to be arguing like jack lalane on this matter. but he did alot of television and told folk to exercise for many years, yet obesity rates continued to rise. so say what you're saying all you want--hector your friends---live by them. hell, i like to bike and i don't eat processed foods. but that won't do anything significant to address obesity as a problem, particularly not given the scale of it.

structures. no way around them.

I was in Japan regularly and in years-at-a-time stretches from 1968 to 2003. I was a student there and i taught in Japanese schools. I have a pretty good idea of what's happening there. But you can always look at the stats if you don't believe me.

The trends are:

More cars, more streets
Fewer open spaces
Even more TV
Home computers & computer gaming
More wheat
More sugar
More fats
More meat
Less variety in veggies
More processed foods

I agree that the system by which we create and distribute food isn't working well, but that doesn't address the fact that regardless of income or location you likely have access to healthy food. It's probably surrounded by crap, sure, but that doesn't mean you don't have access. I would argue that everyone in the US has access to healthy food, in fact, and most of the developed world, and even a great deal of the third world. Again, specifically, where do people not have access to any healthy foods?
It's really not. When I was in college, I worked two jobs and went to school full time and I still managed to find time to exercise. I dare you to find someone that doesn't have 30 minutes a day to spare.
I don't remember ever saying anything but diet and exercise, but that's not important.
I'm not arguing that telling people to diet and exercise is necessarily the best solution, but certainly a lack of proper diet and exercise are the main causes. And considering the fact that each of these main causes can, in the lion's share of cases, be remedied by slightly different choices at the supermarket and maybe walking or running a few times a week speaks in volumes about the situation.

If we're going to delve into solutions, then the discussion should probably go to education. That, though, may be enough of a tangent to require another thread.

While there is a lack of education, an overabundance of advertising and processed foods, I still am not sure who is forcing obese people to eat unhealthy foods and who is preventing them from exercising.

Can anyone help me understand that?

:wave:

No one's forcing them to do anything.

Environment, culture, and psychology. Mix them together and look what you get.

Foods that are bad for us are desirable, abundant, convenient, popular, and cheap (and taste pretty damn good). While I do believe that we are each ultimately responsible for our personal health, there are clearly those out there who are either ambivalent about the whole thing or are affected by a number of factors that have brought them to a particular situation related to their health.

The problem that many of us who aren't in that situation face is that it's too easy to oversimplify things. It's not as easy as saying, "Stop eating unhealthy foods; start exercising."

I hinted at this earlier in the thread. We don't get far by simply telling the depressive to cheer up or the alcoholic to stop drinking. Of course that's what they probably should do, but it's not that easy. All of these problems have a number of factors that make each situation what they are. Much of it is tied to environment, culture, and psychology.

If obesity had such a simple solution, it would have been solved by now.

Ah, but my problem isn't so much that they're fat but that they're doing nothing to aleviate it, they don't work, and YET they still mooch off the state to remodel their house... it's not that they ARE fat, it's that they are fat and do NOTHING about it. Its that they are fat and are LAZY too. It's that they are fat and complain that they don't have energy to walk the dog. They have no right to complain about the state of their home or health of their body because they are doing absolutely nothing to improve themselves in any way on their own.

It's the complaining and laziness, not so much the state of obesity that bothers me and I'm guessing most everyone else who complains about obese people.

Does everyone understand how universal this question is?

I have a lot of questions about people and how and why they behave the way they do. Being fat isn't one of them.
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But not all obese people are like this. And many non-obese people are. Therefore it is very unfair and misleading to use this account as a condemnation of fat people. Right?