A kick to Vegetarian's nuts
 

I mean the title in jest. Seriously.

I'd like to continue the topic but also explain my post, and do it all without further hijacking of a different thread.

I'd like to reply to this, and not like before.

I replied hastily and perhaps harshly because my sister-in-law is vegan and tries to force that shit on us every holiday. It's created a rift in the family between my mom-in-law and her that pisses me off (note: she cared for me in high school, so she's more like "mom" than "mom-in-law"). Anyways, notice it's holiday time, and I get to look forward to this crap again sometime soon. It's annoying ....no, it's infuriating when someone pops in and says hey let's eat beans and be happy! because that's just like my sister. Ugh. I get it enough from her, like I need it on the web too. I eat beans as a side dish. I can't sustain myself on beans and rice, I'd be a fatass and I'd fart all the time, and I wouldn't enjoy my food. Plus I get literally sick if I go for several days without meat, and I start shoving chocolate or any other proteinaceous food down my throat. It's another one of those "what works for you might not for me, so let's not push shall we?" topics.

So anyways, to my previous reply, I apologize. It comes off as weird because I want to yell it at someone else and it has nothing to do with anyone here...well not directly. My sister and I argue occasionally because she's a liberal vegan buddhist (or whatever fits her this week, she's more into the fashion of it than the real deal) and I'm a fairly conservative omnivore quasi-christian...or whatever allows God and psychics to intermingle. We're cordial and we chat, but we absolutely cannot touch personal beliefs.

I agree on the CAFO issue and I'm not a massive KFC eater, but I don't exactly boycott them, either. I could drive all the way to downtown Houston at WholeFoods and see if I can find free-range chickens, but that's a PITA and a huge waste of gas. I haven't bothered looking locally because, well, I haven't cared enough to try. I'm not one of those "every individual counts" people. If the community reacts, that matters. If I react to a national/global concern, it appears as a futile and inconvenient act in my eyes and that doesn't work for me.

I'm not saying vegetarian/vegan is wrong, I'm just saying that I don't go around telling people on here to eat meat, and I should expect similar treatment from the other side of the issue. I think that is a fair implication, despite the somewhat more liberal influence of this forum.

And if it's ok, I'd like to request that the admins and mods allow this thread to be hijacked on any side issue arising from this topic. I prefer open discussion and to just let it go where it wants to go, rather than force one-lane driving only. That is, if the leaders of TFP permit such requests. Thanks either way.

Maybe before we get started and for the benefit of those who weren't following that other thread you could frame for us an initial direction of conversation.

What is it you're asking of us here?

You're right in that no one should force their way of thinking on anyone else.
If you want to eat KFC, if I want to eat gobs of bacon(mmmm, bacon), knowing the inherent problems of its fat content and nitrates, that is no one else's business.
I use my own bags for groceries because I know that keeps less out of landfills, but I'm not going to start preaching that to the person behind me at the store.
On the opposite end of the preaching what's "right" spectrum, I smoke, but I'm certainly not going to force anyone else to by extolling the advantages of smoking (not that there are any).

What it amounts to is, in my little opinion, this: when someone has a real belief that what they're doing is the "right" thing, they can do one of three things: STFU and just do it; covertly push their cause by incorporating it into normal conversation; preach.

Most of us choose the middle(I just did).

It never ceases to amaze me how an obvious meat related topic can somehow evolve into a vegetarian topic. I am not speaking solely about forums either. If I am speaking on how to fry a chicken, I don't want tofu or beans. I shouldn't be forced to clarify that, put it in bold or use fancy colors to make that clear. I would never force the flesh from my dinner table on a vegetarian's plate, why does it seem so many wish to impose their will on myself? I don't care to hear about supposed health benefits, believe it or not there are benefits of meat as well. As far as how animals are kept, it is somewhat upsetting but not enough to change my eating habits. Believe it or not, omnivorous people are aware that meat comes from animals.

IMO just because tomatoes and trees and corn stalks don't communicate the way humans do, doesn't mean they are less deserving of our protection and honor. I wonder what vegans will eat when humans eventually learn that all this vegetation is as intelligent as we are. So I'll keep eating whatever I can catch and tastes good to me.

Trees Appear Able to Communicate With Other Plants

Plant "IM"?Scientists Unravel Communication Secrets of the Green World

I suppose it's less about a question and more a continuation of a topic that began in the other thread.

But to try to clarify, I'll quote Katyanna, if she doesn't mind.

This thread is based on my reply to this post:
And that is the punchline. If someone tries to push their own convictions on another, it is begging for a rebuttal. That is what set me off, I hate having anything pushed on me. I've spent my whole life trying to figure out several things that puzzle me to no end, then some (pardon my french, I do not mean this here, but in general) witless buffoon tries to give me their "unique" perspective on life. I grappled with the diet topic years ago and find myself very comfortable with where I am, thank you. What I eat I do not feel guilt over, I do not feel that my version of God frowns upon it, and I never cared what some random fool thinks of it. In fact, I would prefer to kill my own and cook it over a fire, but unless you live way out in the boondocks it's not gonna happen. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy eating veggies too, including wild, and I always eat my decorative parsley when we dine out (love it!) and I really prefer the fresh young bitter celery leaves and heart over the dark green outer stalks. I have even eaten insects as a protein source when out in the woods for a long time. So given my most likely unique diet, having someone tell me to eat tofu (wtf, that is the grossest shit ever) or beans and rice, or even lintel soup and humus chip dip (...ugh, holiday nightmares) makes me want to shove the plate back in their face like a big pie.

And prove to me that beans and rice is healthier than a whole broiled chicken with greens, as an example. I would love to see that.

Where is this thread supposed to go?

Either an Outback Steak House or a salad bar.

Frankly, it seems quite simple to me; some people care about meat and some people don't. If you're going to try and force your beliefs on others instead of simply allowing people access to the facts, be prepared to be ignored.

I'm on the fence. After seeing the cattle episode of 30 Days (I'm serious), I had to ask myself if I was willing to support such an industry. Clearly the animals are tortured in order to cut costs and occasionally to appease the sickness of bad ranchers and such (not to mention the massive corruption at the USDA). I've stopped eating American beef completely. I'd like to start looking into pork, veal, and poultry, too.

luciferase, what is it you want to discuss? We can take this in two directions. I'm guessing it would be best to pick one.

1) It is wrong to politicize the diet of others, especially if it is uncalled for or during an inappropriate time, such as during a meal that observes a holiday or other event.

We can discuss how vegans should only address issues of veganism and their view of a meat/dairy/egg-centred diet only when a non-vegan asks about them. We can go further and explore situations where it is appropriate and situations where it is not. Maybe we could go further and highlight the reasons why we care or care not for what vegans say or believe.

2) Veganism isn't necessarily any better than other diets. This is why vegans shouldn't share their ideas on diet with those who aren't vegan. But if they do, they are being self-righteous and should be refuted.

This is a heavier issue, but would be one I'm willing to engage in. The other side of the issue, however, is that there is far more "communication" in support of consuming meat, dairy, and eggs than there is in support of a plant-based diet. So this is a hot topic, indeed.

So, luciferase, what is it you're wishing to discuss here? We're still unclear on your position. We're a bit confused on how you wish to frame this topic. Please come out with some talking points or questions, or I don't see this thread going anywhere constructive.

Seems simple: the middle ground is to accept vegans and non-vegans alike. Adopt a don't ask, don't tell policy.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The meat production paradigm for our population on earth is not sustainable. How can you say on the one hand it's not alright to kill your pets, which you love, and on the other hand, that it's alright to kill an animal you haven't ever met so you can eat it. Survival? I'm a vegan and I do fine.

I personally don't have a problem with the raising and slaughtering of animals for food, but I believe there are better, more humanitarian, and more sustainable ways to do so than the current system. You could say I love eating meat, but would like to do so responsibly. I see a largely vegetarian diet as a means of commenting on said system, and by choosing to eat meat when I do eat meat that is locally and sustainably grown I am supporting a system I agree with. Many of the major issues I have with CAFOs can be dealt with by simply eating local meat. Where I live, this isn't hard to do; I live in a town surrounded by agriculture and a town that has joined the local foods movement with gusto. Just this morning, at the Saturday farmer's market, I passed a stand offering corn-fed beef and another offering chickens of various sizes. In the summer, there is also a sausage stand.

I understand many people in this country do not live in a place where meat raised outside of CAFOs is easy to come by, and I understand a vegetarian diet isn't practical for some; I myself am not a vegetarian and could never, ever be one. I like steak. A lot. But it is worth trying to eat less meat if you want to attempt to change the current system. Plus, it is healthier and cheaper. Economically speaking, eating a more vegetarian diet is a great choice.

I understand your frustration with overzealous vegetarians; given where I live (it's kind of a hippie town) I've met more than my fair share. Militant vegans are even worse ;) I think that sort of attitude has kind of motivated me to keep eating meat, but to make better choices about the meat I eat. Funny how their urgency to convert me has just backfired, huh?

The fact is, we could raise a lot more food for people on land we are currently using to raise food for animals in CAFOs. We have available rangeland that isn't being used because of the way the current system is set up, rangeland that couldn't be used to grow crops, but can be used for stock. Were cows in these places instead of in feedlots, this would free up some of that land we're using to grow cow corn to grow crops for human consumption.

The food system in the United States is fraught with problems; the meat issue is just the tip of the iceberg. We've addressed the issues of industrial corn and soy elsewhere on the forum. I'd recommend reading some Michael Pollan if you'd like more information.

We're a bunch of overfed idiots. Arguing over a meat or a veggy diet, when there are so many starving people in the world.
Many in our own back yards.
Don't we have better things to do with our time?

No offense Baraka, but I think you are confused. I thought saying "this is the punchline..." would be pretty obvious. Number 2) is my topic of interest. I did request that we be allowed to roam the topics presented, if that is ok with the powers that be. It's not asking for something unusual, just allow a thread hijack if it occurs, because this is a wide range of related topics IMO and I find that conversations that digress intelligently can be more interesting. So if it goes from quit pushing your crap on me to let's chat alternative methods of obtaining meat etc, would that related, but obvious side-topic be ok with you? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to see if we can bend the rules, but actually I didn't see a specific rule on hijacking topics. I may have missed it, and if I did then let me know.

I do agree that there is more propaganda on eating meat than eating veggies. Then again, Jehovah's witnesses are a pretty small group, yet they are vastly more annoying to me than, say, most catholics I meet. It's all in how you present the information. I take alot more from people that say "here, just try this out, and take what you like and leave the rest", rather than "HEY! DID YOU KNOW THE WORLD IS GOING TO END SOON?!" I was a very rebellious kid, and I still rebel when anyone tries to force me to do or accept anything.

I like your outlook onesnowy, it's very similar to my own but more active in finding alternatives and solutions. Militant vegan is a good way to describe some, for sure LOL.

As I said, I love veggies but when the vast majority of my diet becomes veggies, I get odd cravings and sometimes get nauseous and constantly hungry. I'm borderline hypoglycemic but I don't know enough about how we metabolize meat to know if that matters of not. Fat might be a stronger factor here, or not. I'm really not sure. I have plenty of fat IMO haha, it shouldn't be a factor! :orly:

I'll check out Pollan. I found and it looks interesting, so I'll grab it and see what he says and what I think of it.

To offer a different perspective, I've been vegetarian for a year, leaning towards vegan (I don't eat eggs or drink milk, but damn, I love cheese...) I don't really talk about it much, and I certainly don't try to get other people to go veggie.

What I find annoying is when someone finds out I don't eat meat, and they automatically get defensive, or make it their personal mission to try and get me to eat meat. I can't possibly be getting enough protein, they tell me. I must be SO unhealthy, they say.


*shrug* I guess it's the same thing YOU don't like, just on the other side of things.

Why, yes I was. Thanks for humouring me. I was just hoping for you to come out and say, "Hey, let's talk about this; what do you guys think?" I had to read through your personal thoughts and experiences to try to determine what you want us to respond with.

It's not a hijack if it's the same subject matter. You want to discuss the politics of diet within the context of vegetarianism as opposed to an omnivorous diet. Anything outside of that would, instead, be a hijack.

So are you saying it's not the information so much as it is its presentation? Is this why you are resistant to vegetarianism?

I agree for the most part with you as well, snowy. First, everyone has the right to eat what they choose so long as they aren't breaking the law. Second, I'm intrigued by your concern with the issue of CAFOs. Where I take issue, however, is where you base your food choices on your negative reactions to others. Is this a reasonable thing to do? Also, what is a more humane way to take the life away from something that would otherwise wish to live? Is doing this in a humane way even possible?

And to extend what CinnamonGirl touched on, also realize that "overzealotry" goes both ways. There are vegans who have to live with the criticisms of omnivores everywhere:

"It's just a fad."
"Where do you get your protein?"
"You're only going to get sick or anemia or something."
"We are designed to eat meat."
"What, are you a tree-hugger?"
"Oh, good! More meat for me!"
"For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat two! Haw, haw!"

What these people don't realize is that these words are either spoken out of ignorance or as direct criticisms to what is an important, conscious, and life-changing (not to mention challenging) choice. Not all vegans are overzealous or militant. Don't let a few ruin your perspective of an entire group.

I'm a vegetarian. It works for me. It doesn't work for my husband. I'm not about to force my diet on him, or anyone else for that matter. I chose this diet because it seemed a healthy option, and I could always go back if it didn't work. Two and a half years after I started, I'm still at it. I have seen a number of positives, but there are also negatives. I won't get into all of that here.

It bothers me when I hear someone preaching about animal cruelty. Heck, it bothers me when I hear any preaching.

About as easily as I did working for years in the diamond industry and for all of the other years in which I've worked with full knowledge of the fact that every dollar I earn helps to fund all sorts of atrocities like keeping much of the third world exactly as it is.

Not with a clear conscience but free from delusions.

I read this in a letter in the back of New Scientist... Beef is 70% water right... so i it also 70% vegetarian? :-)

I hope you didn't intend this to be a legitimate point. Do you care equally every time a person dies on the planet? Would you feel the same about a family member dying as a random person you've never met? For the sake of your family, I hope not.

I have no problem eating a cat raised to be eaten, assuming it's well-prepared and safe to eat. I, of course, have a problem with eating my own cat. You care about things close to you that you choose to care about, and there is nothing internally consistent with that fact. No one I've ever met cares about all life on the planet equally, even with the assumption that it's all of equal value, because it's silly and impractical.

In my opinion, the purpose of my cat is for me to love it and it to love me and for us to be happy coexisting. Also in my opinion, the purpose of a cow is for me to eat it. You're damn right I care more about the happiness and continued existence of my pet than I do about the cow's. I also care more about my wife's happiness and continued existence than I do about anyone else's in the world. That doesn't make me a bad person or make me a hypocrite.

This is a great book by Michael Pollan: The Omnivore's Dilema (I think it's the one you guys were alluding to above.

I am an omnivore myself. Vegetables. Meat. Dairy. It's all good.

To me the conversation isn't about whether to eat meat or not. The conversation should be about sustainable, humane and healthy ways of harvesting our food. The industrialization of our food supply has contributed greatly to our own lack of health. There are better ways to make our food and there are much healthier ways to consume it.

I think we need to take a long hard look at what we've been eating, how much of it we eat and how it is produced.

Well this might hold water if humans didn't have a choice and required the consumption of animals, but they don't. The choice is not killing one person or animal over another. The choice is not to kill at all.

I have not taken part in any actions other than to speak my truth when the opportunity comes up, like here. I tend not to be a shit disturber in a conversation unless someone says something on the topic. I tend towards more positive topics like trying to get people to try kale or telling them I'll bake for them. I mention this because despite all that, I identify with what people are calling militant vegans.

It's really, really whiny of people to complain about "militant vegans" when it's such a minority voice. Our society is dominated by meat and dairy! Saying you get fed up with people trying to push it on you... is it really happening so often? How do you feel when ethnic minorities complain about racism?

["Oh no... he compared the slaughter of billions of animals which lead to diets responsible for an obesity epidemic to the plight of oppressed minorities... what a deluded jerk!"]

The way I see it, when people get defensive towards this point of view, it's because they don't want to face the logic of what they ought to be doing. And if you don't believe that we ought to be doing anything, then fine. I can accept that such a person exists. But don't respond with pseudo-science like "I had this friend who went anemic," or "humans have teeth built for meat-eating." Don't try to justify the fact that you don't want to make what can admittedly difficult but entirely possible and feasible change. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also to touch on Baraka's point about more humanely raised meat, I can't reconcile the words "humane" and "slaughter."

Well, no. I'm resistant to nearly anything when presentation is bad. I would never choose vegetarian however because it doesn't work for me. In other topics I'm willing to listen if there is something to consider, but in veg diet there is nothing for me to consider. Only veg dish I might have made is ramen noodles with celery and whole lettuce heart. Even then the flavor broth contains meat byproduct and I often cut up some ham or lunchmeat to put in it at the end.

It's not pseudo science, my wife has heavy flow and was pale and very anemic when she tried to go vegetarian. She passed out more than once just walking, what else do you want? Yes we had bloodwork drawn up as well, the cause was proven. Cooking everything possible in an iron skillet didn't help, as well as dietary supplements. She went back on meat and the problems went away.

Humans DO have teeth built for eating meat, unless you get your canines removed (veggies too, hold on). Even then your molars are this nice in-between model for vegetable and animal consumption. Look at a dog's molars, and look at a horse's molars. Combine the two and you have our molars. Peaks not as high as a dog, and lots of crushing area for nuts, grains and plant stalks. This is a science fact as well. What you do with them is your choice, of course. That isn't saying you have to use them for both or die, it is saying you evolved this way, however (hunter-gatherer, come on now). This is irrefutable; there is no argument against that evolutionary path... provided you accept evolution, of course. Please don't go creationist on me in this topic.

I do see issue with the way we raise/kill our livestock. There are alot of cases of pure torture in the butchering industry, and that does disturb me. I don't eat veal generally, as in I don't buy it, but I will take a bite off of someone else's plate. I also prefer free range eggs and would prefer free range chicken if I actually found some. As mentioned before though, I haven't found a local source, and I'm not going to drive 30 miles just to get some. It may well be local, we have 3 supermarkets to choose from and I don't pay that much attention. Onesnowy got me thinking about it though, so I may look and see.

And just to state, but not keep on in this direction: When minorities complain about racism, I feel the same way. I've been the minority in many cases even as a white male. 15 to 1 in a jail cell actually, and yes one of them tried to take interest in me. He gave up after I stood up to him. I was a minority in the orphanage too (4 years there) and even on the bad side of racial hate. One dude claimed his cousin got killed by KKK and then proceeded to blame me, for months. I lost several friends over that shit, all black and hispanic that took his side. I have several black friends BTW, and even had a few black love interests. So yes, when someone cries about race, I want to slap them silly. People do shit, time to get over it.

personally, i am mostly vegetarian. i eat seafood. i do eat meat, but not very often.
i considered becoming vegan, but i like cheese.

anyway, there are two level of decisions about food intake that i think are important, but in conversations about being-vegetarian they tend to get reversed---one is if you accumulate enough information about the industrial food production systems, it will probably make sense to you, if you can rig it up, to opt out of it. switching the distribution systems of which you are part seems to me a bigger deal that is the question of whether within the industrial food system you are a vegetarian or not.

the problem comes with whether you can rig up that switch or not. reasons it can be difficult range from the fact that economies of scale have advantages and price is one of them--so switch away and you pay more. but this assumes that you can find consistent sources of what you want to eat that enable you to opt out, if you can rig it up economically.

i try to live outside the industrial food system to the greatest possible extent, but i don't beat myself up if it doesn't work exactly at all points. when i lived in philly, it was easy because i was part of a co-op---in chicago i had a csa share and gradually found a sequence of places i could go that would enable to me stay outside the ifs (sorry, i'm just tried to typing it)...here in tiny town, it's a bit more complicated logistically to be consistent, and it's just like that. it take a while to figure things out.

pollan makes this basic argument.
you'll notice that he is not a vegetarian, and that the book is not an argument for being vegetarian.

another way--i would think it less important that you are a vegetarian who gets vegetables from a regular supermarket than if you are an omnivore who tries to stay with sustainably produced local food as much as possible.

You mean you choose not to work for it.

Fair enough. You like meat and don't want to give it up. But I don't buy it when you say there is nothing for you to consider. That sounds like an easy out, that you are unwilling to think deeply on the issue and how you could practically make it a part of you life. If you like meat and that is it, then just say so; don't say there is nothing for you to consider. There's plenty for you to consider.

I cannot reasonably comment on this because I don't know what her diet was really like. I'm sorry she had to go through with that, but realize that not everyone has these problems. She is likely a special case. Otherwise, a properly balanced vegan diet is full of iron. There are vegan female athletes who have no problems. (Vegan female athletes have an incredibly high iron requirement.)

Yes, we have evolved as highly flexible generalists. This is why you hear the argument that eating meat/eggs/dairy is unnecessary. Despite what you've pointed out here, humans don't do well eating the amount of meat and dairy that the average North American eats. Not by a long shot. This is partly to blame for the high rate of heart disease and some cancers.

As for your other responses, I'm sure aberkok would rather address them.

I think this is wrong. If said omnivore eats meat once or twice a day, I would be more certain of it. The amount of resources that are required to produce just one pound of meat is astounding. If you want to compare sustainability within the context of the two diets, even if the vegetarian was living in Canada and getting all the food from the U.S. and the omnivore got their food locally, I think the vegetarian's diet would still be more sustainable. And, of course, sustainability is just one of the issues.

baraka--at this point, the arguments simply diverge as to what diet is linked to a more or less sustainable model for production.
i'm mostly a vegetarian by choice, but i opt for locally produced, sustainably grown food to the greatest possible extent for political and aesthetic reasons.
so my political commitment is on the scale and mode of growing (you know, diversified as over against monocrop) question.

this is why i prefer csa, really--maximum information.

rb: Okay, I get you. I just picked up on that side-by-side comparison you established. But when you look at what you are doing yourself, opting for the most sustainable mode certainly is commendable.

No worries there. I am about as atheist as they come and a supporter of the yet-to-be disproven theory of evolution.

Thank you :thumbsup:

Baraka as I understand it, generalists and omnivores are one and the same. I tried to find an example of generalist defined as eating one food source or another as a mutually exclusive diet, but I can't find a source. Do you have one handy?

I don't have one handy, but look at it this way:

Many vegetarians, vegans, and plant-centric omnivores take the "diet for a small planet" view. aberkok touched on this already. The average North American diet is unsustainable. If you look at the ecological effects of the meat- and dairy-production industries, it's quite depressing. The model of food production is broken and much of the blame can be placed on market forces. We want lots of meat and dairy; our culture demands it. In order to keep affordability, we operate a highly damaging set of industries.

As generalists, some of us make the conscious choice to eat in such a way that isn't going to limit our viability for survival down the road. We can eat meat/eggs/dairy if we need to, but I would argue that we don't. There are some exceptions, sure, but I'm talking about our culture in a wide sense.

But what you say is a bit off the mark: a vegan diet isn't eating "one food source"; it's eating everything but animal-derived foods. There's a difference.

There are 2 main kingdoms from which we derive food. Plantae and Animalia. Vegetarians eat one of them. Omnivores eat from both, so it actually is eating from one food source. There is a difference only in perspective. One could argue that vegetarians eat fungi as well, but that is really just nitpicking because the nutritional value is low and the percentage of consumption is low as well.

Don't get me wrong, I would say eating animals only, as a carnivore, would also be one food source. And in my opinion, both are equally unhealthy.

I do agree on the american diet issue. I really agree after I just ate a handful of halloween candy....ugh.

I've already touched on my issues with not eating meat at a personal level. We do not need eggs. We do not need dairy either, but it does seem to help women not break like a wineglass when they get older. Of course there are supplements that can have this effect as well, but in my life the ability to stay off of pills is very nice. I hate taking pills of any sort because I always forget until the day is halfway over, or when I go to bed...LOL. I'll never forget to eat though, so if I can get all that I need through diet, why not just do that?

I don't want to say that you can't pull vegan/veggie diets off, I know you can and several people here have proven that, but for me it is not practical. For my wife is it not practical, either.

I would like to know, of the vegetarians here, how many take a daily or weekly supplement? What is your calcium source? Iron? Everyone has something different they prefer. I am not trying to seed a debate, I am honestly curious.

A very good point, but you will find that humans eat a far more diversified selection from the prior kingdom than they do the latter. And most eat a much larger proportion of their daily consumption from it as well.

If it's one source, then it is certainly a varied and far-reaching one. You'd have a better time living off of the plantae kingdom than you would the animalia kingdom, exclusively. This means the food derived from the latter kingdom is more "expendable" from a generalists perspective. Hunter gatherer societies had often relied more on the gatherer aspect than they did the hunter aspect. (So is my understanding.)

Also, fungus is actually quite full of nutrients. Cremini mushrooms alone contain rich sources of vitamins and minerals, including selenium, copper, potassium, zinc, and several B vitamins, not to mention a modest amount of protein. We would all do much better by eating more mushrooms. :thumbsup:

No worries, I didn't get you wrong. I just wanted to establish that our dependency for nutrients is more on plants than it is on animals.

Interesting point. Did you know that in many Third World countries, osteoporosis is almost unheard of? These are places where dairy consumption is next to nothing compared to ours--literally. For most people, the prime source of calcium isn't milk or other dairy. Milk is actually often supplemented with calcium. Also, high-protein diets encourage calcium loss. If I recall, this is related to the metabolism of nitrogen, a byproduct of protein synthesis. North American diets are typically too high in protein.

Ironically, vegans can often be less dependent on supplements than omnivores (namely, North American omnivores) because they consume more nutrients from their diets naturally by consuming their calories from whole foods rather than processed foods and meat. Meat, despite it being rich in protein and some vitamins and minerals such as zinc, B vitamins, and iron, actually isn't that nutrient dense otherwise. Replace the calories you consume in meat with plant-based alternatives and suddenly you get a boost in a wide variety of other nutrients that were otherwise non-existent. B-12 is probably the only major issue for vegans, but only because of the issue of pesticides and our need to wash produce to a pristine standard. Otherwise B-12 is abundant in soil. Omnivores supplement for B-12 by eating meat...animals eat B-12 from the soil--that's where it comes from.

Again, it comes down to choice. You've made your choice. Whether or not it is impossible for your wife to thrive as a vegan--due to her situation--is another issue.

My main supplement is a multivitamin, which I would take regardless of whether or not I consumed meat and dairy. My main source of calcium, beyond that, is from fortified soy milk (just as cow's milk is fortified) and dark green vegetables, sesame seeds, and somewhat from mushrooms, molasses, citrus and other sources. My iron, besides from multivitamins, comes from soy product fortification in addition to molasses, sesame and pumpkin seeds, lentils, beans, and, to a lesser extent, a wide number of other vegetables and grains. Actually iron is more concentrated in the first few items in this list than it is in beef and other meats, but that's a good thing because it isn't in as absorbent a form. This is why vegans need to eat more iron than the average person. But this is fine, because much of what vegans eat is dense in nutrients, both iron and otherwise--plus vitamin C helps absorption...vegans typically eat a more than ample amounts of vitamin C.

I take a daily supplement. It's just a catch all... insurance. I don't use it to replace anything specific. It's more to help out and is especially useful when I'm doing more weights or running.

Just a sampling of some sources of nutrients from the stuff I eat a lot of...

Calcium: Dates, dark greens (chard, kale, rapini), almond milk, soy milk

Iron: Walnuts in my morning oatmeal, tempeh, greens (again) - I aim to drink coffee or tea, iron absorption inhibitors, at least 30 mins. after I eat my breakfast. Eating Vitamin C (e.g. grapefruit or a kiwi, typically), enhances iron absorption so I try and do this.

Touchy. I wasn't pushing anything on you. I don't care what people eat. I was merely pointing out that for $10.00 you can eat A LOT. Your reaction is a little extreme.

I never said we didn't. I never implied it, either.

The hunter-gather issue will need to be looked up. Pretty sure the whole point of "hunter-gatherer" is that they didn't have fields of wheat and maize. If I'm walking through the woods, I tend to see more birds and other animals than edible plants. Yeah sure there are small things like pine seeds, you can boil acorns, etc, or you can kill the squirrel, eat it's stomach contents and have dinner over a fire.

Yeah and so does dockweed probably, when you count the catepillars. I'll take your word for it. You can't digest chitin though, and it's chock full of that, locking in many things that could be utilized if not housed in an undigestable material. Point is, what you can squeeze out of it in a lab doesn't mean you'll get the same effect in your gut. This is part of why I say that generally fungi are low in nutrients.

Again, never implied or stated. Just because I said one might develop illness from sticking to one kingdom or the other doesn't mean that I said you must eat more meat than plant matter.

Start off a baby on a starving diet and do that for a few generations, and I bet that family would be pretty healthy, too. Too late for that, for us. Let's stick to what we can change. Unless you want to move to africa and raise your kids in poverty. Good luck with those flies, they pack a nasty punch.

Also, we're talking about people that have been in the same area since we evolved as a species; their dietary needs and adaptions will be as varied as any other species that covers a wide range of habitats/ecosystems. Just like when humans moved out of africa and their skin became lighter and their noses narrower, for the ones that stayed, their calcium uptake and retention is most likely much more efficient. For those that start off shoving fortified milk down their throats, of course calcium retention is going to be less efficient. Feel free to prove me wrong on that, it's just a hunch.

Ironically as well, I take no supplements and am very healthy. I don't depend on processed foods though. I like uncooked veggies usually, or lightly steamed. Green beans I cook myself are sooo much better than the canned variety, as an example. I eat celery like a giant green apple. I eat lettuce like a dinosaur, but I drop a little salt on the leaves before I take a bite, again, like an apple. I eat beef nearly raw and eat lots of turkey and chicken as well. Oh and cheese nearly every day and fruit in the evening. Mix in eggs and (for now) halloween candy and you've got a balanced meal LOL. I gotta throw the rest of that candy away....

How so? Is this not the point? Some can do it, some can't. The whole reason this started is because one person thought that her idea of a meal is great for everyone. My wife never tried to be vegan, just vegetarian. Even then she couldn't do it without hitting the floor anytime she exerted herself.

I'm debating with a vegetarian. Now I see why you're so adamant over anyone else so far http://texasoverclockers.com/images/smiles/blahblah.gif

I'm just messing with you, but it is obvious at this point that you have a steak (get it? haha I kill me!) in this topic. I wasn't even trying to debate really, just discuss, but you've analyzed everything I've said with a fine tooth comb. Of course I've replied in kind, but it just looks ugly and nit-picky. You like teh veggies, I like teh meats and veggies. Do you mind if we have a discussion instead of nitpicking like a grouchy married couple?
-----Added 9/11/2008 at 07 : 09 : 36-----
And I explained that it was a sensitive topic externally to this board and apologized :)

You will find I never said you did on any account. I do things like this under the assumption that we aren't the only two reading the thread.

Interesting take. But you will find that we share the same biological processes, though they might be of varying degrees. I don't think they differ so much as to say that Africans don't need fortified dairy, but Caucasians do. There are many factors to bone density and diet is a huge one. We tend to drink more alcohol and caffeine than many other continents, which is probably a higher factor than anything else other than hormone- or age-related issues. Actually, I read recently that soy protein is a big help because of both the isoflavones and calcium fortification. Women at risk would be best off doing resistance training and eating a balanced diet. Simply consuming lots and lots of dairy probably isn't enough.

Nice work on your diet. Besides cooking your beef more thoroughly and reducing the amount of cheese you consume, I'd have no other recommendations. :)

Fair enough. Then there are the stories where people virtually save their lives by going vegetarian. High cholesterol and risk of heart disease become a thing of the past for many of those who take the leap. But you're right; it's not for everyone. There is no "one true diet."

If you think I used my fine-toothed comb and was being nit-pickey, holy crap, you have no idea. :surprised: I thought were were just having a conversation.

I'm welcome to taking it into a direction of your choosing. Do you want to know what my ideal diet is? What else do you want to talk about?

(You'll notice I dropped certain things such as chitin and African genealogy ...talk about nit-picking.... :rolleyes:)

I'm not a good debater. I can go for a while as you've seen, but if it keeps up I start to tire of the topic and would rather walk away, or in face to face situations "fight or shut up" is more appropriate. Among most of my friends I am the intellectual, but I am not an intellectual by any means (that is not to debase, just that I tend to bring up weird shit more than they do haha). I'm just practical and stick to the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Anyways I enjoyed your discussion, but I gotta take a breather. What for you may have been conversation, for me was excessive and somewhat irritating. Had I known you would be on a crusade, I would have just dropped it at the previous thread.

No problem. I understand.

But for the record, I thought it was you on the crusade. :expressionless:

You put my nuts in the line of fire.

Hahaha it's all good man, it's all good :D

Living in Salt Lake City (the liberal sanctuary of Utah) has lead to my wife having many vegetarian friends (all woman oddly). Also growing up in South Dakota has lead to me loving meat and requiring it with every meal. I guess you would call me a meatetarian To me a meal is not a meal without some form of meat. I love to cook and we host dinners at our place all the time. For a while I used to cook two types of food for these dinners meat and vegetarian. At the same time when we would got to their places for dinner they wouldn't return the favor and cook a meat dish for the people who weren't vegetarians. So eventually I came up with my own solution. Cooking an entire extra entree for 1 person doesn't make sense. Now when we cook dinners I tell the vegetarians what we are cooking (there is always a few vegetarian sides) and I give the vegetarians an option to bring their own entree if they want to. This has worked out decent.

For what it's worth, there is a sizeable amount of evidence linking Blood Type and genetic precursors for the 'ability' to be vegetarian or not.

From:
It was an interesting book. I didn't read it so much for the dieting instructions, as most diets have a great deal of 'fad' to them, but because it continued a series of research about health, blood type, and meat consumption.

I'm definitely one who cannot subsist on an "agrarian" diet. Even taking the necessary supplements, I become noticeably less coordinated and irritable if I don't have a high-protein meat source every 2-3 days. It got to the point where I would go out just to buy a bag of beef jerky in the middle of the night. My girlfriend laughs at me sometimes when I start craving meat.. I NEED MEAATTTT..

I'd be curious, Lucifer.. if you know what blood type your wife is. I'm betting B+.

Me too, sometimes. My desire to eat meat is also directly affected by my cycle; I can usually make do with non-heme iron (iron from plant sources) most of the month, but when I have my period, my body insists upon heme iron, or else I get very, very irritable.

Jinn, what's it say about type Os? I'm an O+. I'd be interested to know.

I believe O was moderate protein, minimal grain and AEROBIC exercise. I was more interested in B (mine) but I remember O was similar except in exercise regimen. I'd have go digging to find that book in my closet, but if I remember I'll look tonight.

From what I understand, this theory is still largely undocumented and lacks clinical trials. I've read more than one source of medical doctors stating that the claims of this diet have no evidence of any certainty.

I've even read that the author has gotten it wrong when it comes to the history and evolution of blood types. It's possible that he's corrected this in subsequent editions, and it's great that there is research going on, especially if there is any validity to it, but there isn't enough credible evidence to suggest that we need to eat these ways based only on what blood type we are.

I used to think this of myself as well. But I figured out that the main reason why I would crave meat is because my diet wasn't balanced or wholesome enough. It's the same idea where people crave sugar only because they haven't been eating enough complex carbohydrates (glucose vs. starches). Your body demands things in response to what is lacking, and these demands are usually reactionary rather than geared towards long-term applications.

I remember on a number of occasions where I'd crave meat ravenously. I think it's because I wasn't eating enough protein in general, or maybe because I wasn't eating enough calories in total. I don't think it could be attributed to any form of protein specifically, whether it be plant or animal derived.

Cravings can also be psychological. We crave things we have enjoyed in the past. I've craved hamburgers and fries a number of times. I don't think there is anything in our evolutionary makeup that would suggest we are programmed to crave hamburgers and fries. :)

It's interesting, though. I still crave hamburgers and fries, and soy burgers do the trick just as well as cow burgers.

She's O ....hehe. Interestingly I'm A, but I have more native american inheritance than she does. My wife read that book, and in some ways it made sense for us and in other ways it didn't. Mom figured I would be O by what I eat, but it turned out to be the exact opposite. That's when we quit discussing the book....haha.

I will admit that one of these is as pleasing to me as meat, so long as it has Tillamook cheddar cheese on it:

http://www.seeveggiesdifferently.com...d9871979&w=250

There is nothing I love more in life than a juicy cheeseburger. With these, I can pretty much eat cheeseburgers any time I want. I don't, but I could. In the interest of eating locally, I also substitute the local vegetarian restaurant's Sunburgers occasionally, but I do love Morningstar Farms burgers, corn dogs, chick'n tenders, etc. Yum.

And don't get me started on how much I love Quorn. You couldn't eat Quorn, Baraka, as it has egg white as a binder and therefore is not vegan, but because it's made of mycoprotein, it has a similar mouthfeel to meat, unlike many other meat substitutes.

Talk about a threadjack, but forgive me; I think it's important to address the role meat substitutes can play in a person's diet, even if they aren't vegetarian.

Surprisingly I used to eat veggie burgers when I worked in the field. We had a lab with a freezer and I would grab some patties out of there, grab a coarse mesh plate that we use to wash dirt samples, and a pot of water to go over a hotplate. I'd put the mesh over the pot, boil the water, and put the frozen patty on the mesh. Oh and I'd go out in the field first and collect a few large dockweed plants and boil those at the same time as greens. I could put both greens (after being pressed with paper towel) and patty on some bread and have a sandwich right there. It got me through the day, because working so hard out there, alone, you need some backup food when you get hypoglycemic. I never ate the caterpillars that came with the greens, because there was alot of pesticide used out there and it tends to collect in fatty tissues over plant tissues and biomagnify.

Yes, there is now an amazing selection of vegetarian foods in pretty much every major grocery store, but it's true that vegans need to be careful to ensure there aren't any egg or dairy ingredients. (Honey is an issue as well.)

An example of this is the soy cheese slices you see everywhere here. They're normally by the Yves brand deli meats. (I'm not sure if the cheese is Yves or not.) If you look at the ingredients of the cheese, everything is fine except that they've included casein, which is a milk protein.

There are other products out there, such as block soy cheese in health food stores, but they're expensive. Well, so is regular cheese too, I guess....

Anyway, I can do without cheese, especially when you discover such things as miso gravy and whatnot to put on your burgers.

There is little more rewarding to me than eating a fully loaded grain burger on some nice bread--especially if some avocado has found its way on there somewhere. :thumbsup:

Well said. I used to believe I needed meat when I really just craved it. It actually has taken the better part of a year to lose all my cravings animal flesh and secretions.

No honey?!? Oh man.

Replaced with cravings for fried tofu and soy milk lattes. :thumbsup:

Which reminds me: I've finally mastered my new machine; you must come over and see how frothy I can get that Silk brand.

Molasses, corn syrup, barley syrup, rice syrup, maple syrup, agave nectar, and sugar of many varieties...what more do you need? :orly:

Honey. http://www.texasoverclockers.com/ima...es/crackup.gif

All you need to survive is an IV drip with all the necessary amino acids, vitamins and sugar, so let's stop with the "need" nonsense as an argument for why being a vegetarian or vegan somehow makes more sense or is better than eating meat or animal products.

I eat meat and animal products because I think they're delicious. I also eat plenty of non-animal products, because I think they're delicious as well. Honey, especially good honey that's locally produced instead of mass produced, tastes incredibly different and has a completely different mouthfeel than any of the other sugars you mentioned. I don't need to eat any of them, but I value the variety and the ability to eat them when I want to do so.

On that note, it seems to me like the vegan wants to eat the stuff you find on the Nebuchadnezzar on The Matrix. Artificial and everything you need, nothing hurt in the process.

Well, every other animal on this planet hurts something, and some of them would gladly hurt us. It's the circle of life, which is why I've never tried or wanted to be separate from it.

I know that sticking cows in a barn "cell" to keep the meat tender is not the circle of life either, but aside from those situations is more what I'm referring to.

I don't think the "need nonsense" is a good argument for being a vegetarian or vegan. I see the "need nonsense" on both sides of the fence. I don't think it's a good argument for anything on its own.

For the record, I used "what more do you need?" as a figure of speech.

But I commend you for being forthright on your dietary choices.

Which vegan are you talking about? I don't recall them eating grain burgers with the works or drinking soy lattes on the Nebuchadnezzar. Have a look at a vegan cookbook the next time you're in a bookstore or the library. There is little artificial found in them; some have nothing artificial at all.

Don't feed me that "circle of life" line. Even Buddhists acknowledge that they can't live a day without causing harm to some organism or another. (Our bodies are rife with organisms that we kill on a daily basis.)

That's not the point. The point of a vegan diet includes doing what you can to minimize needless suffering. We know we kill organisms by boiling vegetables, and that many beings die as a result of the farming process.

We're not attempting the impossible here; we're doing what we reasonably can to be compassionate.

Well I'm still trying to understand the vegan mindset, so bear with me. I know people have different motivations for what they do but as a general rule, do vegans eat as such to minimize death, or it is health? Might it be both, but one takes precedence over the other? Are there any other factors? I'm not going on the offensive here, at least not trying to. I'm truly ignorant of why.

For me, unless God popped down from the heavens and told me so in a very obvious manner, or unless my doctor told me I was deathly allergic, I would not give up a little honey every now and then for anything. Especially on a tortilla with a little butter...mmmm. ...sorry, I'm a little hungry. In that case I'm sure a few bees are killed during harvest (just sliding them off the honeycomb), but does it warrant a complete boycott of honey? Isn't that a little...severe? Or is there another reason? That's what I'm trying to learn now.

I have a multivitamin, but honestly, I forget to take it over half the time. When I do, I only take one (the "serving size" is three.) It's just sort of an "insurance" type thing, for days when I don't have time to cook, or maybe don't eat as well as I should (like football games, where I'm eating pizza and drinking beer.)

I eat a lot healthier now that I'm vegetarian than I ever did when I ate meat. There are other factors at work besides going veggie (I pay more attention to what I eat, and don't eat processed foods nearly as much, for starters), but by eliminating meat, I had to branch out from the "meat and potatoes" meals that I was used to. I wouldn't touch broccoli a few years ago, and now it's a staple.

So, yeah, by eating a larger variety of food, I don't have to worry that I'm lacking on something. I get calcium from my orange juice and soymilk, plus veggies like spinach and broccoli; iron from cereal, beans, pumpkin seeds... also, vitamin C helps absorb iron, and I know I get plenty of that from OJ and strawberries (yum :) )

It's not a boring or unhealthy way to eat, unless of course, you do it wrong. Cookies and potato chips can be vegetarian, but they certainly aren't healthy.

Oh, and something else I was thinking of (this is getting long, but I haven't been on in a couple days, so I'm just now reading the posts after mine): I have cravings for meat, but I've always found something non-meatish to satisfy the cravings. Gardenburger Riblets are awesome, for example (although I don't eat them often.) My boyfriend came up with an awesome tofu recipe that tastes like buffalo wings.

The cravings don't happen very often, though... mostly I want things, as Baracka pointed out, like soy lattes, or my veggie/pasta stir-fry. Mmmmmm.

I don't have cravings for meat. I don't enjoy meat-flavored soy-ish burgers. They are passable when nothing else is available, but barely.

Great question!

I take an iron suppliment once daily during the week leading up to my monthly flow. I have done this since I started menstrating, because anemia is a common concern among the women in my family. This is not new since becoming vegetarian.

One month ago I began taking a women's daily multivitamin that is catered to healthy skin, nails, and hair.

My calcium sources: cheese, plain nonfat yogurt, whole milk, calcium-enriched orange juice on occasion. Before I became vegetarian, I did not consume as much dairy as I do presently, so I took calcium suppliments. A few months into the vegetarian diet, I realized the calcium supplimets were overkill and cut them out.

It differs person to person, but I imagine most vegans would say both. Many view compassion as #1 and health as an awesome side effect.

There are other issues as well, such as ecological impact, food security, economics, human rights, etc.

I don't blame you, though. Many find the honey thing to be a bit extreme. But look at it this way. Vegans make simple choices to minimize the harm brought upon the animal kingdom. If you look at the honey industry, hive farms are quite extensive. Many of them essentially cull up to 20% of their farms each year for various reasons, many hives are destroyed accidentally. The other issue is that bees are often transported great distances (for them) for various production reasons, which is also harmful if not deadly to many of them.

Finally, honey is produced by bees at a great expense of labour. They do this to produce food for their colony. We humans allow them to do this simply so we can take it from them. We also take wax, pollen, royal jelly (the queen's food), and resin.

It's simple. Vegans wish to take no part in this industry, as it can be quite destructive to millions of insects.

The alternatives are enjoyed widely. I'm a big fan of molasses, agave nectar, and maple syrup.

Thanks Baraka. I understand now, and I respect the choice more. Honestly. I can see why vegans and vegetarians in general, then, talk about growing their own food. I can tell you now, working directly in agricultural research for years (and maybe again soon since my IT jobs have disappeared) that one week of treatment in a field kills vastly more insects than an entire harvest of honey on a farm could ever hope of killing in terms of bees. And that's on a small farm, I'm not even beginning to touch on the big operations.

It might also explain why my sister took up buddhism, however like I said before, she's more into the "fad" than the actual practice, at least towards other humans. She's a hateful creature, makes me as a teenager look nice LOL.

Thanks also Cinnamon and Genuine, it gives me more insight into how people can do the diet, and why the result can be so varied.

I do think there is a genetic component to this as well, making it easier for some and harder for others. It makes sense, but of course isolating the factors and being able to read someone's dietary needs through DNA is the holy grail of all dieters the world over.... and it's not going to happen anytime soon.

One thing I've learned from the many, many vegetarians and vegans I've discussed the topic with is that each one has a different reason for why they've chosen that lifestyle. Some reasons may be remarkably similar, but there is always a bit of individual difference. For instance, my boyfriend the vegetarian is such because of the environmental impact of meat. He's not as interested in the other reasons for being vegetarian, but that isn't to say they have zero impact on his choice. I also once had a vegetarian roommate who couldn't care less about animals; she just didn't like the taste of meat (weird, I know).

I am an omnivore (the same as most human beings). Omnivore simply means that we can eat pretty much anything. However, I CHOOSE to be vegetarian. I'm not vegan ... I do eat dairy ... but only regional free-range. Still, what has that got to do with it? It's still taking a potential life or denying life ... or hurting some animal.

My reasons for being vegetarian are just that: MY REASONS. Why would I even begin to suggest that my choice is right for anyone else? Why would I expect anyone to make concessions for me because of my choice? My wife and daughter are NOT vegetarian.

My in-laws wanted to take us out to eat last night. Where did we go? Outback Steakhouse because that's where they wanted to go. Did I whine and complain about it? No ... I had a salad. If I wanted to take them to a vegetarian restaurant (on my tab) would they complain? No ... because we have respect for each other.

I feel you on the whole sanctimony and arrogance issue, luciferase ... I can't stand when ANYONE gets on a soapbox.

Yes, humans are omnivore and that is how we evolved. Humans also evolved as opportunistic eaters. We ate what was available ... locally. If that means we do without one kind of food over another then that's what we did. We are cunning though ... we realized we could herd our live animals and take them with us to greener pastures. Then we had the best of both worlds. Eventually the industrial revolution made it even easier for us to have our "food" delivered to our front door ...

This particular problem in the U.S. is not the vegetarianism vs. carnivore/omnivore diet being better or worse ... it's marketing. Meat sells.

Sorry if my ideas are disjointed ... I'm at work and typing quickly.

my wife and I take no artificial supplements. we've been on and off pure vegetarians over the years, and I grew up with some of my friends being vegan. an entire family, my friend, his two sisters, little brother, and mother were vegan and their father was a rabid meat eater. So I got some crash courses in the major and subtle differences in their diets, health reasons, moral reasons, and social reasons, etc. my mom raises me on whole foods for health reasons. I enjoy meats, grilling, and can eat hamburgers every and all day...and not gain a pound :)

there's a nice middle ground, if you can't find free range meats, you should be able to find kosher sources. then when your family comes over for the holidays and someone starts to discuss the problems with the meat industry and even health reasons, you can point to the turkey and say well I hear your concerns and they're valid, but we've enjoyed our holiday turkey for hundreds of years and decades in this family, so we made sure to buy a kosher turkey :)