Russian woman put on trial in Dubai for drinking juice in public
 

A 28-year-old Russian female, who visited Dubai on a tourist visa, and a 30-year-old male citizen of Lebanon, a salesman in a local store, were put on trial for drinking juice in a public place in the daytime during Muslim fasting.

The police caught the two people red-handed at a gas station in Dubai, Emirat.ru reports with reference to Gulf News.

In accordance with the Federal Penal Code of the United Arab Emirates, a public intake of food and beverages during daytime hours of the month of Ramadan is forbidden by Article 313. The article stipulates the punishment in the form of either a monetary penalty – up to 2,000 dirhems ($555) – or even a term of up to one month in prison.

The young people told the court that they were not Muslims and were thus unaware of the fact that their actions could be punishable.

The court took the mitigating circumstances into consideration, but found the defendants guilty, since ignorance did not exclude responsibility. The court ruled that the young people must pay the fine of 1,000 dirhems ($278) each.

The case became the first one in Dubai in violation of Article 313 since the beginning of the month of Ramadan on September 1.

Thousands of foreigners from Europe and Asia reside in the emirate of Dubai, the major tourist center of the Persian Gulf . Dubai is known as a relatively liberal region in comparison with other territories of the UAE. Tourists can be seen in the streets wearing shorts, whereas alcoholic beverages can often be available in bars and hotels.

This year, however, the authorities intend to remind all residents and guests of the emirate that they are staying on the territory of a Muslim country. There have been quite a number of incidents recently when the local police in plain clothes arrested women sunbathing topless, nudists and other violators of public order.

Many tourists acknowledge that that they do not always understand how they should behave in Dubai.

Guide-books advise tourists should always carry their IDs, or better their copies, with them for the majority of police officers wear plain clothes and can be rather meticulous in their inspections.


Source


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OK, This is absolutely fucking ridiculous. I can understand stopping public nudity and consumption of alcohol in public (ie, not in a bar), but arresting and convicting tourists of drinking a glass of juice in public is fucking ridiculous and further makes me thing this world has gone to hell.

Dubai, who is rapidly running out of oil and is trying to build a niche as the Bahamas of the Arab world as a destination hotspot and playground for the rich and famous, and is trying to market itself as one of the more liberal muslim destinations pulls this shit?

I agree that in most cases that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but this is just fucking stupid. I would feel intensely happy if shit likes this causes tourists to shun Dubai and their economy collapses.

Am I the only one who gets outraged at this shit? Or am I just getting bitter and racist in my old age?

I don't think you're bitter or racist. I think you're right on the money. Dubai needs to get its shit straight, because it can't both be a bastion of Islam and a major tourist destination. I don't even understand why this is illegal. I get that it's not ok for a Muslim to break the fast during Ramadan, but why would it possibly be illegal for someone who isn't even of that faith to break the fast? Is this kind of like how women have to cover themselves up so men don't go crazy and try to fuck everything in sight? Do all the pious Muslims of Dubai have so little self control that merely seeing a non-Muslim eating or drinking would cause them to fly into a feeding frenzy?

That was kind of a rough note to end the post on, I suppose. There just seems to be a major disconnect here between the image and market they're going for and stuff like this. I could maybe understand posting notices alerting people that they shouldn't eat and drink in public during Ramadan, but this kind of enforcement is way over the top and pointless.

Hall of Famedddddddd

Their country, their rules. I think it is retarded but hey it is the law. I suggest not going to such backward thinking places, although I'll be making a trip to Dubai to see the Burji (sp?)tower once it is complete.

I just wish we would do the same here in my country, you come here it is OUR rules no exceptions. Learn our languages, customs and don't expect foot wash stations, prayer rooms or whatever else you think you deserve regardless of religion/faith whatever. Conform and fall in line or stop complaining/get the fuck out.

I fully expect the same treatment in return.

/sorry bitter on the subject.

edit- I just wanted to add that regardless of how stupid this law is I find it funny that these people did not take the time to learn the local customs. If i was heading to an area which is known for stupid things like this I would hope to invest a few hours into studying the local customs so I don't get beheaded (joke) or arrested.

Every day, a colossal meteor impact is sounding better and better. I still can't believe people are so backwards-thinking and judgmental that a modern country can get away with this shit.

Hey, it's their country - their rules. Don't see the problem here.

Personally, I doubt it would be a destination I would likely head to if I thought I might get in trouble for breaking with Muslim tradition, but that is my decision, too.

So then would it be okay for other countries to deny Arab visitors the ability to pray or to fast if they were visiting? I mean without the sensationalist news of discrimination.

If that was the law of the land, yes.

Now, if a country (say Canada) started arbitrarily forbidding people from practicing their religion, outside the law, that would be entirely different.

But when you travel, you have to accept that while comparitively minor things might be no issue at home (drinking, doing drugs, wearing certain clothes, etc) they might be of concern abroad and it is incumbent on travellers to understand this and accept the consequences.

The only reservation I have about this instance is whether such Ramadan prohibitons are generally enforced in Dubai or not. If this is a "one off" by a zealous official, I'd be a little concerned. If such prohibitions are generally enforced, then no issue whatsoever.

This isn't a one off. The people were arrested, went to court and were convicted. If they were simply arrested you could blame an overzealous cop, but the fact that it went through the entire process shows it is the system.

Then, it's fine.

Hey, I can make a right turn on a red light in some jurisdictions, I can't in others. It's up to me to know where this minor law is in force. I can smoke weed in Holland, I can't in Malaysia. I can drink publicly in England, I can't in Toronto. I can get a hooker outside Vegas, but can't in Saudi Arabia.

Do I think some of these prohibitions are stupid? Sure. But I respect the law of the country I am in, regardless of my personal opinions.

I am not nearly as reasonable as you it seems. I like MSD's meteor idea.

the way thing seem to be, a meteor would off a majority all of the good people and leave nothing but small, scattered tribes of assholes.

you would think in the day in age we live in one would be able to enjoy a juice. i get it, its a muslim country, but not everyone in that country is muslim. shouldn't a non muslim be able to enjoy a juice if they so choose?

Don't visit in Ramadan.
If they had a thoughtful travel agent planning their trip, they would have been informed.

Actually, you can - just not in public.

Yep. You are obligated as a traveler to know the customs of the area you are visiting. If you don't bother and you get in trouble, tough nuts.

I'm not sure that my objection is so much to the plight of the tourists, since, as noted, you are responsible for the rules of the country you visit, but rather that such an absurd law is even on the books and that people are obnoxious enough to enforce it, especially in a city which likes to style itself as being progressive and friendly to non-Muslims.

It's their religion.

It really can't be that hard to understand.

Your absurd/obnoxious is their sacrilegious/profane.

But he's used to a country where even if something is abhorrent to the dominant religion, we don't let them impose their views on the rest of us because we live in a country of complete and utter tolerance, free from all forms of discrimination.

Yeah, it's a good thing the US doesn't have any of these crazy religious-based laws. Why, you can buy a beer or alcohol or a car any time you want. Oh, wait, did someone mention blue laws that regulate the sale of certain products during the Sabbath?
Visiting the Middle East is not high on my list of things to do. Basically, places that suppress women, religions, and the eating of barbecue ribs are in need of a little more education and growing up.

*cough*

If you were continuing the sarcasm, then MY apologies for missing it xD.

Selective enforcement and arbitrary application come to mind :mad:.

When in Rome ...

Travel agents will advise you of everything from customs, tipping and where to avoid the water. Travelocity even offers info like this.

And Logan, as for the question, would we "deny Arab visitors the ability to pray or to fast if they were visiting?", it's doubtful. We have Muslims and people of many other faiths throughout this not-so-shabby country of ours. We have few laws against praying, no laws about fasting. But just as we can't plead ignorance of their laws, they follow our rules when they're here.

I disagree just as strongly with all the stupid laws about Sunday and the purchase of alcohol here as I do about drinking juice during Ramadan there. Laws should be designed to protect people. This law is designed to impose a purely symbolic (in terms of public health and safety) religious mandate upon everyone regardless of what religion they follow. In my book, that's a bad law.

I'm a sadly uninformed person when it comes to alcohol. Highlight the post under my cough to realize that I didn't get what he was saying xD

To my knowledge, you are not a citizen of U.A.E., or a member of their leadership, and quite likely have no say whatsoever in their choice of laws. If I'm visiting a foreign country I inform myself of their laws and customs, and avoid making a scene or stepping out of my bounds.

If you're not willing to look up the customs of a country you are visiting may I suggest not doing any international travel?

Bad law or not, its a law. This is just like the boy in Singapore who was caned. He was in their country he needs to abide by their laws. I'm not going to a foreign country with a gun in my hand and saying "it's my right to have this here, because I can have it in my own country!".

It's a muslim country and thus has muslim rules. If you are not willing to obey them, then don't go.

You're making a practical point, which is just lovely for you. Please continue to make that practical point. I have traveled to a number of different countries and successfully followed that very practical advice. I'm making a philosophical point about my opinion on the role of law in society and the fact that I think it's silly for this law to exist and that I think it's silly that, even if it exists, they would bother to enforce it for drinking juice in the street given how Dubai likes to portray itself. I don't need to be a citizen of the U.A.E. to have an opinion on what it does, just like I don't need to be an Aztec to think that human sacrifice to keep the sun rising is philosophically bankrupt.

Fair enough. Being practical keeps me out of trouble. I'll go back to arm chair philosophy when I have an arm chair to sit in.

I'll let the topic get back rolling. I still believe no matter how silly a country's laws are people should educate themselves about laws and customs before going on a foreign vacation.

what he says, especially the first four words:

I don't believe in forcing anyone to do what your religion says you should do. I don't care what country it is, Muslim or not. Respect and be respected. You may not be able to drink juice on Ramadan because you're muslim. I am not muslim so I will drink juice. In your place of worship, I will be respectful of your religion. I will not necessarily say the prayers of your religion, but I will refrain from doing disrespectful things in that location. But on the street? Mutual respect. Just turn this around - if you're in a catholic country and you're muslim, do you suddenly change religion or beliefs to comply with their rules? I think not. Tolerance is a good thing.

I know it's the law, and I don't plan on visiting countries with such asinine laws, but just because it's the law doesn't make it right.

@Little_Tippler: The difference is these countries have their religion governing parts of their laws. I.e. the cops aren't objecting to it on religious but rather legal reasons. Whether these legal reasons are derived from religious ones is immaterial in regard to the fact that the law is still being broken, and you should follow another country's laws while you are a tourist there.

I completely agree that it is ridiculous, though, and that if they want to open up into a true tourist attraction they will need to drop some of their laws similar to this one. Let the mosques punish their own worshippers for religious infractions, and take your religious laws out of the legal books.

Oh I agree the laws are silly, any laws based on religious mythology are at best silly and at worst horrific. "We are a christian nation" "we are a muslim nation". Whatever, no one was born a religion. But don't expect to piss in the wind and not get a little damp.

Jozrael, some states or counties in America have laws known as blue laws which restrict certain sales on Sunday. Often alcohol, sometimes cars for some reason. Maryland would sell cars on Sunday, every dealership was closed in Virginia. The place where Jack Daniels is produced is a dry county. You could go into a grocery store in Lumpkin county Georgia and they would have green sheets over all the alcohol displays on Sunday.

Yes it's their country, their rules, but it seems like such an obscure and unobvious rule, they should have made more of an effort to point that out, especially during Ramadan. I think that country needs to make more of an effort to reach out and inform tourists of local customs like they do in other countries. Especially if they want to be a tourist destination.

Shouldn't the seller of the juice be punished too then as an accomplice or facilitator?

If anything this will become a marked point for their tourism push. If you want tourist dollars, you need to let tourists be somewhat forgiven for not following the same rigid rules.

It may become a traveler's joke like Singapore and haircuts, gum, flushing toilets...

I wouldn't say this is a sign of world going to hell – that law is based on their culture and religion, and not some current trend or fashion in their society. Tourist agencies should make a stronger effort to inform their customers of the local laws and customs and consequences of disobeying them. Nobody is forcing tourists to go there – they do it on their free will.

Given that one of the people arrested is Lebanese - a country that is half Muslim at least - perhaps this was an additional factor taken into consideration? If you're from Lebanon, you damn well know how Ramadan works, even if you are part of the Christian minority.

The court is right, ignorance is no justification. These women would have better off to do their research before they entered the country. They should have known it was Ramadan before they entered Dubai.
The punishment may seem harsh, but they broke the rules of that country, and must be punished accordingly.

Face it guys and gals every country has stupid ridiculous laws that are still on the books. Australia, the USA anywhere in Europe or amongst the Muslim nations it is all the same.

It is a sign of respect to the country and the people of that country to atleast check the laws of the country (especially those that would apply to tourists) BEFORE travelling there. This should apply twice to Dubai which is well known for its changeable nature when it comes to allowing personal freedoms to the Western contingent of its population.

One thing which none of you seem to have clicked on to is

That sentence to me implies that the guy lives in Dubai. He knows how Ramadan works and should know that it's illegal to drink juice or any form of liquid between the hours of dawn and sunset.

They're just lucky all they got was a fine rather then jail time.

Check post 34.

Or a stoning, or a flogging...

Post #34 mentions him as an accomplice, he wasn't an accomplice exactly in the strictest sense of the word like the woman he was a "criminal"- he was actually charged as he was outside drinking juice as well. That's why each of them is paying something like $280 rather then the $555 each.

So no only did he allow the woman to purchase the juice without saying anything he was outside WITH her ALSO drinking when he knew he shouldn't be.

i thought it was about time i set the record straight.

im still dumbfounded that as smart and intellectual this forum is, that there is still people here who wont raise a finger to find out the facts before they make silly statements.

did anyone bother reading any other article other than the link posted? i think not. the link was a russian website, obviously in defence of the russian girl in question.

given that i live in the UAE, i think im in a better position to tell you what this whole thing is about and to explain the scenario and the ramaan environment so to speak. im here to call a spade a spade. im not here to defend any side, just giving my views on this thing.

so lets look at the facts in question shall we?


2 people get arrested for drinking juice in public during ramadan in daylight hours. they were charged and fined.

is that all we know? did anyone bother do any reading?? were they together? were they seperate cases? the article doesnt really say.

so lets get to it.

FACTS

1) there are laws in place that forbid everyone from eating and drinking in public

2) these laws are everywhere. evento the extent that they are advertised in the newspaper, in the local buildings, as part of the radio stations broadcasts in arabic, english and hindi.

3) there are designated areas in parts of shopping centres where non fasting members of the community are allowed to eat and drink. this usually comprises of restaurants that put curtains on their windows to accomodate for this part of the community.

4) the laws are in place not just in public, but also in the workplace. you cant eat at your desk in front of fasting members, but you are allowed to eat in the lunchroom etc away from fasting members of the community.

5) the laws are set as a sign of respect for the fasting members of the community.

6) the vast majority of the population is non muslim. only 10% of the population is local emirati. the remainder come from mainly asia, europe, UK, mid east and africa.

7) non fasting members of the muslim community (pregnant women, children, those that are unable to fast for health reasons etc) do not have to fast, but still must abide by the laws, so it is not just a non muslim issue.

do i think it tough? hell yeah. do i have sympathy for those two that got arrested? no not really. why? lets see the facts of the story then


1) the two people in question were at a service station
2) two people - a male and female are arrested for drinking in public
3) they are seen by some local emirati who was offended by them drinking and called the police.
4) the police arrested the two and charged them.
5) the two were the first case out of almost 5 million people. surely these guys arent the sole people that have eaten in daylight hours?
6) as mentioned earlier the male that got arrested was lebanese. even if he wasnt muslim, he would have known that he was not allowed to eat or drink in public. she being with him would have been aware of this also.
7)the 'seller or facilitator' doesnt get punished. he sold them both a juice bottle, why is it his fault that he be punished for selling juice? it was their decision to drink it.

for those saying this is a muslim country and it doesnt accomodate for non muslims, i dare say you have yet to set foot here. the only time you hear things like this is when the western media picks things up and makes a big issue out of what is a flagrant flaunting of the laws. ie- when sunbathers bathe topless, or people have sex on the beach, or when people get busted for bringing drugs into the country. i dont see why people jump on the bandwagon when the laws are well known by everyone living here.

so ok - the rules are very tough. granted. i agree, but there are things in place to accomodate the non muslim population.

there is an extremely large indian population here..about half the population in fact. they dont have these problems and issues. why? because they are aware of the rules, cultural restrictions and taboos. westerners on the other hand have less regard for the cultural sensitivities and a lot are ignorant of the cultural and religious influence on society.

these laws are not overbearing. nor are they unreasonable. i just wish there was a bot more common sense and understanding before people decide to make a judgement.

when in rome, do as the romans.

Excellent post. You have certainly opened my eyes to the true facts and I sincerely thank you for doing that.

It seems that I shouldn't be jumping to conclusions so readily....

We have been waiting for you to chime in with your local knowledge!

I think point 5 above is key - it would be pretty horrible to be fasting and have to watch someone else chowing down on a Big Mac in front of you.

As indicated, you can go indoors and eat in private or in designated areas.

an awesome reality check! thanks for that

I guess I'm just an asshole if after the reality check I haven't changed my mind.

I equate it to the idea of wearing a hat in a protestant church in America. We don't have laws about it, but everybody around you would stare at you and whisper. A woman on the way out may utter, "disgraceful". Her name is Ella.

Thanks Dlish for your info. I was holding comments until you or Abaya offered some cultural context.

Life was easier when Russians weren't allowed to travel.

Damn you Dlsih, why did it take you so long to respond? We could have used your post awhile ago. Anyways, thanks for your post and perspective.
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 09 : 24 : 14-----
No, you're not (at least not with regards to this thread). I think you are perfectly normal and your opinion is perfectly fine.

I agree with the "their country, their laws" POV. I don't have anything significant to add to this thread.

thanks guys. i expected to come back to tussle, i didn expect almost everyone to agree with me!

daval - fair play. takes a lot to do what you did. respect.

at least everyones 'post reality check' responses taught me not to judge your rebuttals, so i can walk away having learnt something too.

having said that, this is my experience in the UAE and the UAE only, and this may not be the case in other parts of the muslim world. i am yet to visit another muslim country in Ramadan, so other peoples experiences may differ. maybe abaya or ktsp can give us an insight into Lebanon perhaps?

and sorry it took me so long to post. i did see the thread when i got up in the morning but i was running late so i couldnt respond. i also cant respond at work because im having trouble logging in to TFP from there, so i responded as soon as i got home. i wasnt waiting for you guys to swim in your own stew.

MSD, i dont think you're as asshole if you dont agree. at least you can come away from this knowing that there are considerations for non fasting members of the UAE, and that the UAE are not the stringent tossballs other neighbouring countries may be. just do me a favour and let me know when that meteor is coming!

I'm saving my outrage. I don't think 280 buck each is as hard to swallow as a life prison term, beheading, caning or some of the other punishments handed out to travelers who ignore or fail to research local laws and customs while abroad. Many countries have strict or what we may consider asinine laws, not just Muslim countries.

Dorothy should have known she was leaving Kansas.

Unfortunately, I have not been to Lebanon during Ramadan... but ktsp might have some more insight for us on that one. I do know that there are 18 different religious groups in Lebanon, so it would probably be quite difficult to implement laws such as these. But let's see what my husband has to say. :)

Excellent post btw, dlish. :thumbsup: Makes me wonder why people jump to conclusions so easily about an area of the world they know so little about...

:) because we like to project our values onto everyone else and be righteously indignant! :thumbsup: does there happen to be a socialogical word for this type of behavior?

Funny because it does happen domestically and locally just on a smaller scale.

Aha! True. I wouldn't know, because I *never* indulge in that kind of behavior... :orly: Riiight. :shy:Being an asshole? :lol: At least, that's what I call myself when I do it. A more appropriate term would probably be ethnocentrism.

I try to be tolerant, but I get indignant as hell over legislating morality and passing laws that don't fix problems. I think the religious law thing is mostly a knee jerk reaction to my religious upbringing, and it doesn't help I find religious practices like fasting ridiculous. At least in this case they aren't executing people for drinking or having sex.

rest assured it's endemic to the human population...

This is true, thanks for posting this. People far too often make generalizations about Americans or conservatives or Christians without regards to facts. Ditto Asia and Asians.

I guess I've already had my thoughts from this thread quoted in the Hall of Fame, but for me this isn't a question of jumping to conclusions about a place. I would think a law like this was dumb anywhere for any reason. I am perfectly fine with fasting being a part of religious observance-I was raised Jewish, I know a bit about fasting on a certain day of the year. As with basically everything in life, I'm happy for people to do what they want, so long as they're not hurting anyone else.

I know lots of people who fast while other people are eating around them. I've fasted while people have eaten around me. Does it make it harder to fast? Sure it does. But you don't fast because it's supposed to be easy or pleasant. You fast to deny yourself a worldly pleasure and to focus your thoughts to your faith. I don't think you "respect" those who are fasting by telling everyone else that they can't eat in public or that they can only eat in designated areas. People who fast are choosing to do so, and if they feel uncomfortable around people who are eating, then I think they should choose to remove themselves, as opposed to forcing everyone else to accommodate their needs.

so should i be removing myself from meetings if someone decides to smoke drink or eat in front of me? should i be removing myself from the office at lunch time? should i change my course so that i dont walk past the food court? these designated areas are actually normal restaurants with curtains, and not some back of house room.

At the end of the day, yes people who fast do have a choice whether to fast or not, but its also a choice for visitors to be in the country at that time.

if i were in India, id respect my hosts by not eating beef in their presence the same way id respect my hosts during ramadan by not eating in their presence.

I'm not saying you should HAVE to, but saying that if it bothers YOU, the person choosing to fast, so much that you cannot tolerate being around someone who is eating, then you should be the one who moves, as opposed to forcing everyone else to accommodate your need. The difference is my way allows for people to choose to be very polite and not eat around those fasting, it allows people to not care who is fasting or not fasting and eat where they want, it allows for people who fast to choose to be around people who are fasting and it allows people who fast to choose to be around people who are eating.

My problem is with the government regulating everyone's behavior to appease a certain group's needs which are related solely to their religious interests. People are rude all the time, everywhere. And unless it's particularly egregious (or you live in Singapore), it's not a crime. I don't think eating in front of people who are fasting rises to the level that it ought to require a law punishing you (fairly severely) for doing so.

Now, a business (in your example) prohibiting employees from eating in public is an entirely different story, and I would be perfectly fine with allowing that rule. The key for me is that it is a crime.

The problem arises when you're in a country with the ruling class being the fasters :p. I'm not quite sure of the percentage of the population in Dubai which fasts, but its probably considerably higher than where we live.

If it bothers YOU, the person choosing to eat/drink, and it bothers you so much that you cannot tolerate being around people that aren't eating, you should move as opposed to forcing everyone else to accomodate your need. N'est-ce pas? :rolleyes:

I don't necessarily agree with the law, but it's not my culture or country. I know if I'm going to visit a foreign land and enjoy and learn their culture, I have to learn, respect and maybe even try to understand their rules. We Americans are so self-absorbed that we have this need to force our culture, politics and thinking on everyone else. And we think national partisanship is a bitch?

@Jewels: Negative rights and positive rights are very separate things, though they are both rights. So it's not a total equality there.

In this situation, though, I understand what you're saying.

Exactly right Jewels. It's not about whether we agree or disagree with this, or any law in another country. It's about respecting the laws of the country you're visiting. We expect visitors here to respect our laws, and we should do no less when we are a guest in another country.

For example. I am a smoker, you find smoking offensive and do not allow it in your home. I come to your home to visit. Does my right to smoke trump your right to control actions in your home (make your laws)? Should you have to step outside your home so as not to be offended by my smoking? No, you shouldn't. When I come to your home as a guest I respect your rules. If I can't I don't visit. It's that simple.

Read this. Then read mine again. They are not even remotely similar, because I never claimed to care if I were around people who were eating or fasting, which is the whole point.

for me personally, i have no issues with people eating or drinking in front of me. whether in the office or outside of it.

coming from australia and growing up there, it was a normal part of life that when ramadan came along, there was no difference in how it was observed. all my friends ate and drank in front of me at school. no muslim had qualms with it. so much so that it really does not bother me even till now whether someone eats or drinks in front of me. i respected the australian culture. i followed the australian way, i had never had any problems with it. i grew up in a fairly conservative lebanese muslim household, but we respected the way australia worked.

ive been in the UAE for a year and a half now. as much as i enjoy my life here, theres a lot of things that i dont like and dissapprove of. a LOT. but at the end of the day i have a choice as to whetehr i want to be here or not.

at this point in time, i want to be here more than i dont, and i choose to want to be here. there are many laws that i find racist sexist and downright wrong. am i going to fight it? no. its not my country and they can run it as they please. the moment i stop enjoying living here, ill be gone in a flash.

for the time being, its quite easy living a western lifestyle here, similar and in many ways MORE western than many parts of Sydney.

what i do have a problem with though, is that as an australian muslim, i conformed to the way australia expected me to conform. i paid my taxes, i was never on welfare, i studied hard, integrated into society, even though some of those norms were alien to the way my parents grew up. our family respected australia and its customs and are indebted to it.

what i do have a problem with though is that this same frame of mind is ok for the goose but not ok for the gander.

why is it expected that easterners conform to 'your' way of life, but its not ok for a westerner to conform to an easterners way of life?

why do you ask that a whole nation change its laws that are intertwined into their religious practices to abolish their way.

why is it that the feeling of self righteousness is so ingrained into western thought that anything they deem is right obviously is?

then you ask..why do they hate us?...

its not because of your freedoms.

what im finding more and more is that the westerners will pick and choose what they want from this place, and leave everything they are not interested in. its ok to take their money, but its not ok to show some respect. nobody has a problem with people coming here to make a living, as long as theres mutual respect. for the most part this the case.

this isnt meant to be a political discussion, nor do i intend on makng it one. im just to show that the level of respect is not balanced.

i too have problems with the mentality of the government and how it runs a lot of its affairs. yes i do think that making this a crime is an overkill, but i barely think that a 260 dollar fine is a severe punishment for breaking the law.

You make a very good point here. I see this sort of attitude in various degree here as well. The sense of entitlement can be highly annoying.

I think if you are going to go and live in another country and another culture, you should make a concerted effort to follow their rules (regardless of how ridiculous you may think they are) and sample their culture (to the extent that you can).

It should have read "if it bothered you", instead of "if it bothers you". Semantics and you miss the point. I was trying to get you to see it from the other side.

How about this scenario -- your house, guest comes in (uninvited, by the way) and wants to (insert verb here) in your house, but it makes your family sick, grosses you out or is against your religion/beliefs and/or you think it's cruel. What then?
-----Added 27/9/2008 at 07 : 08 : 15-----
Thanks, peaches. Much better example then mine. :thumbsup:

I agree that you should become aware of the cultural norms and laws of the area you are visiting before you visit and follow them to the best of your ability. What they did was against the law, and they will be responsible for paying their fines for their lawbreaking which is the right thing to do. In fact by reading on it, it sounds as though they got off rather easily according to the law. That does not mean that I agree with the law however. That only means that when or if I visit, I am smart enough to follow basic rules whether I find them idiotic, humorous or even completely sensible. With that said, I am fairly certain that most most of us here would follow whatever applicable rules of whatever country they happened to be visiting.

It may be easy to pass judgment on "westerners" in making a broad statement that they have less regard for cultural sensitivities and are ignorant on cultural and religious influences on society. Mind you many of these westerners come from secular societies where religion is displaced as much as possible from the government and education. Mind you that the reasons for the displacement of religious influence from law, government and public education is to attempt to prevent one society over another from being discriminated against. Never mind that the whole idea of having actual laws based off of religion being incredibly foreign if not ridiculous to a secular culture. I am not saying that westerners are "doin' it right." What I am saying is that if you are asking for westerners to agree with religious based laws, you are asking for a great deal.

I agree completely that when I am in another country I am required to follow their rules and obligated to do some research to be sure I do. I agree that I would follow the rules and be respectful to the local cultural norms of whatever country I visit. I disagree that it would make me ignorant or insensitive because I personally disagree with religion being allowed in government. I am thinking that most of us who are commenting negatively towards the law would have no trouble following it, but have difficulty with the fact that religion is connected to the law in the way that it is.

When I do eventually go to the UAE, if I happen to be there during Ramadan, I'll fast during the day, too. Why visit a place and not delve into the culture? I've fasted before, and I've enjoyed dinner with Muslim friends in the evening during Ramadan. There's nothing better than a big delicious meal after a day of fasting and reflecting.

It's a shame that the woman didn't do her homework before visiting Dubai, but all she had to do was pay a few hundred bucks. She's very, very fortunate. Is the law unreasonable? Not any more unreasonable than blue laws in the US. Besides, the UAE doesn't have established church/state separation, so actually blue laws are much worse because they're hypocritical.

For people still not getting it: Should I be allowed to whip my dick out and start masturbating while walking down Main Street USA? Is this offensive to the general sensibilities of our country? It doesn't hurt anyone, and what if I come from a country where that's perfectly legal and normal...shouldn't you accomodate me?

A less extreme example would be a women deciding she was hot, and not wanting to wear a shirt. It's a perfectly practical request...why should she have to wear a shirt just because we have decided it's illegal not to? Many countries do not consider a topless woman rude, and there are probably people in the country that it doesn't bother, so why would she get arrested? What if she didn't know you weren't allowed to walk down the street topless?

I can't really say I'm against your second example, twisted.

And I'm sure there are many people in the UAE who aren't against people eating in public. The fact remains that it is illegal, you will get arrested and fined, and people visiting the country should know better.

Look, when I travel to foreign countries and I have, I follow their local laws and customs. I attire myself properly, and avoid cultural faux pas (illegal or just embarrassing). I don't know why I'm being painted as a picture of an obnoxious, entitled American tourist who runs all over the world, waving money around, mocking the people living there and not caring about local customs.

I'm expressing the opinion that more freedom is better, period. If you want to walk around naked, that's just fine with me. I live in the Bay Area. I don't have to go very far to see guys walking around with their dicks hanging out of their pants in front of City Hall and women without shirts on right beside them. I suppose that opinion conflicts with basically all current government systems, but so be it. I think "being offended" by what people happen to be themselves doing is a lousy reason to make something a crime, and that what is offensive is so different between individuals that trying to have a societal norm is all but meaningless.

If someone were to walk up to you and flash you with the intent of offending or scandalizing you, that's very different than a person being comfortable being naked. As it is different to happen to be eating in public versus walking up to a person and rubbing his nose in the fact that he's fasting.

This isn't an east versus west I hate Arabs or Muslims tirade. I think it's nonsense for the government to be micromanaging life that way. I think it's up for individuals, businesses, families, clubs, etc. to make lifestyle choices like that. I'm happy for people to carry on their personal lives however they want. I think it's poor government to have those individual choices be a norm. I think there's a good reason for there to be a separation of church and state, and if that automatically makes me insensitive to the east, I guess I'll just have to accept that label.