Operation Fast and Furious, ATF illegally releasing weapons into Mexico - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ChrisJericho · 07-03-2011, 02:13 AM

Maybe this is old news to a lot of you, but while on youtube recently under "suggestions" was a video about the BATF's program of releasing hundreds of guns into Mexico, some of which may have been used to kill a US border patrol agent. And of course the obligatory cover-up afterwards.

Here's the particular video that I saw:

YouTube - ‪GOOD COPS, BAD COPS and a LYING GOVERNMENT.‬&rlm;

There's also a wiki entry on it if you prefer something with a little less commentary: Operation Fast and Furious - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The sad thing is I'm not really sure if I was surprised or not. Of course we had the Iran-Contra scandal back in the 80's and right now the US military is officially protecting opium fields, so should I be shocked that one of the main agencies in charge of enforcing firearms regulations is itself breaking the law? I guess not.

Plan9 · 07-03-2011, 06:15 AM

This thread belongs in Tilted Politics, not Tilted Weaponry.

In the future, reference The Rules of Tilted Weaponry.

Please stop ruining the one place on TFP I can enjoy.

remy1492 · 07-03-2011, 10:52 AM

reminds me of sitting at a range bench with my AK all alone. Then hours later some old fart comes with his supra AR with black crap all over it to shoot one round an hour.

He gets irked as my soviet cases fly haphazardly to and fro toward him and his precious scoped and waxed beauty.

Gives me that look like I was the cong' he fought back in 68' but.......... I WAS THERE FIRST

Don't come to the range and sit next to an AK! Its the one bench I can use and I don't wanna give it up.

ChrisJericho · 07-03-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

This thread belongs in Tilted Politics, not Tilted Weaponry.

In the future, reference The Rules of Tilted Weaponry.

Please stop ruining the one place on TFP I can enjoy.

I disagree, I don't think this belongs in Tilted Politics as I'm not debating whether guns should be owned or not but rather how they were being used illegally by the agency in charge of regulating them.

However if the mods want to move this to TFP Politics that's fine, I just won't check it because I avoid TFP Politics like the plague.

And yes Plan9 I must ruin every last bastion of your enjoyment in TFP, much like a gf who starts texting you right when you start up your favorite porno. THERE IS NO ESCAPE!

Cynthetiq · 07-03-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

I disagree, I don't think this belongs in Tilted Politics as I'm not debating whether guns should be owned or not but rather how they were being used illegally by the agency in charge of regulating them.

However if the mods want to move this to TFP Politics that's fine, I just won't check it because I avoid TFP Politics like the plague.

And yes Plan9 I must ruin every last bastion of your enjoyment in TFP, much like a gf who starts texting you right when you start up your favorite porno. THERE IS NO ESCAPE!

If you subscribe to the thread you can still follow the discussion without ever having to go to the politics area.

Plan9 · 07-03-2011, 02:10 PM

Let me rephrase what hrdwareguy said in the link: If it doesn't have to do with the technical specifications (guns, accessories, ammo, etc.), use and handling techniques (shooting) or the history and development of the aforementioned, it doesn't belong in Tilted Weaponry. Seeing that the BATFE is a no-shit government agency and any talk involving a government agency is inherently political, this topic does not belong in Tilted Weaponry.

Tilted Politics is the tar pit where such topics go to bray like drunken men with big muttonchops and jack off on themselves.

The asinine "girls with guns" thread is bad enough. I've seriously had it with the lack of moderation in Tilted Weaponry.

ChrisJericho · 07-03-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Let me rephrase what hrdwareguy said in the link: If it doesn't have to do with the technical specifications (guns, accessories, ammo, etc.), use and handling techniques (shooting) or the history and development of the aforementioned, it doesn't belong in Tilted Weaponry. Seeing that the BATFE is a no-shit government agency and any talk involving a government agency is inherently political, this topic does not belong in Tilted Weaponry.

Tilted Politics is the tar pit where such topics go to bray like drunken men with big muttonchops and jack off on themselves.

The asinine "girls with guns" thread is bad enough. I've seriously had it with the lack of moderation in Tilted Weaponry.

Someone has a case of the Mondays

If Cynthetiq wants to move this to Politics, it's fine, I won't throw a hissy fit. I don't believe the topic is political but we can agree to disagree in a civilized manner.

Plan9 · 07-03-2011, 02:27 PM

I just worked four and a half months without a day off... I have a gnarly case of Go Fuck Yaself. *

...and you... you just bought a sweet Daniel Defense rifle and have nothing to say about it.

Color me disappointed.

* Les Grossman (Tropic Thunder) reference

ring · 07-03-2011, 03:09 PM

How about moving this thread to general discussion?
This seems like a good & compromising move to me.

That way, those that are particularly allergic to: politics cooties,
can avoid being bitten.

I agree this topic doesn't fit the criteria for Tilted Weaponry,
as written some quite a few ages ago.

ChrisJericho · 07-03-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

...and you... you just bought a sweet Daniel Defense rifle and have nothing to say about it.

* Les Grossman (Tropic Thunder) reference

My cousin keeps flaking out out on me because he has to plan "his wedding" which happens in a month. Lame.

I gave up when he flaked again today. I am going to shoot it next weekend no matter what, hopefully in the rain.

First I have to figure out how to put on a single point sling. It didn't come with directions

Confederate · 07-05-2011, 05:35 AM

I didn't have anything nice to say so a staffer came along and edited my post for me.

Plan9 · 07-05-2011, 05:59 AM

Pardon me, I can't hear you over the hard vacuum that is the body of your contributions to Tilted Weaponry.

Or, ya know, Tilted anything, for that matter. You have a hard time reading The Rules (TM), too?

I know they're difficult. HrdWareGuy went so far as to put it at a 7th grade level and yet here we are.

The_Jazz · 07-05-2011, 07:36 AM

Because you're all so fucking high up on your own soap boxes, I'm moving this to General Discussion.

And because the only person that realized THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO WAS TO REPORT SOMETHING was a moderator who's not involved in the discussion, we'll do this here:

Plan9, you're not a moderator. You're not "in charge" of Tilted Weaponry. This isn't your private playground. Stop being the bossy 8-year old girl telling everyone that they're playing kickball wrong.

Confederate, this is the second time I've seen you flame someone for their contributions when you're making very few of your own. That will get dealt with separately.

remy - stick to the topic at hand.

From here on out, off-topic posts in this thread will be deleted.

ASU2003 · 07-05-2011, 10:02 AM

1. Mexico's gun laws need to change.

2. The corruption and crime need to be dealt with.

3. We should help the Mexicans cut down on the drug traffic coming into the US.

4. We probably should help train their agents and give them some intel.

KirStang · 07-05-2011, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

1. Mexico's gun laws need to change.

2. The corruption and crime need to be dealt with.

3. We should help the Mexicans cut down on the drug traffic coming into the US.

4. We probably should help train their agents and give them some intel.

I think the topic was more directed at ATF purposefully authorizing weapons to go in to Mexico on the hopes that they become 'trackable.'

Meanwhile, ATF keeps blaring on how US gun laws are permitting Mexican cartels to arm themselves with US weapons--all while this operation was specifically designed to send US weapons in to Mexico.

Then, a weapon from this operation ends up killing a Border Patrol agent, hence the Congressional investigation.

There hasn't been much reporting from the main stream media regarding this case. Regardless, it's a pigfuck all around.

Confederate · 07-05-2011, 11:00 AM

Ha didn't mean to get anyone butthurt about all this. The weaponry forum has 5 month old threads still on the first page, it needs all the help it can get.

The_Dunedan · 07-05-2011, 12:08 PM

This operation had nothing to do with tracking weapons: ATF whistleblowers have repeatedly confirmed to Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley, as well as Mexican journalists, that they were specifically forbidden to track or interdict the "walked" guns amd were told instead to wait until the weapons "surfaced at a crime scene" ie until people were murdered. Mexican authorities were kept oit of the loop. Concerns from FFLS were brushed aside. Emails submitted to Rep. Issa (late, redacted, and only under threat of arrest for Contempt Of Congress) show ATF supervisors "giddy" at the thought of these guns being used in violent crimes.

This operation existed for one purpose only: to deliberately increase the number of traceable US-origin weapons used in Mexican crimes, in order to rehabilitate the totally-discredited lie, peddled by the Obama Administration in defiance of all facts, that huge majorities of Mexican "crime guns" originated in the US. It was nothing but a macabre effort to pad dishonest figures which even the Wikileaks diplomatic cables showed to be bald-faced lies, and then use these lies to ram through the anti-gun measures which Mr. Obama has never been shy about desiring.

The only "pigfuck" here as far as ATF and the Holder DoJ are concerned is that they got caught, and that Dave Codrea et al made too much noise to be ignored.

roachboy · 07-05-2011, 05:42 PM

can someone who is more up on the particularities of this situation provide links to information so that i can get up to speed on them? i'm interested, but am catching up. thanks...

Plan9 · 07-05-2011, 07:04 PM

Wiki - BATFE's Operation Fast and Furious

Plenty of FOX and CNN tidbits to play with until you get to actual .GOV documents.

dksuddeth · 07-06-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

can someone who is more up on the particularities of this situation provide links to information so that i can get up to speed on them? i'm interested, but am catching up. thanks...

"Project Gunrunner" scandal - CBS News Video

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News

Mexico requests info from U.S. on gun-running - - CBS News

DHS Chief Napolitano says she was not aware of agency's link to ATF "gun running" - - CBS News

roachboy · 07-06-2011, 12:21 PM

so we have republican-controlled committees looking to find something beyond a remarkably stupid idea here and the usual right-wing media outlets hooting and hollering about it and the ruby-ridge set gnashing it's teeth about the evils of atf even as it seems that the problems/really bad ideas originated with doj and were compounded by a considerable bureaucratic conflict (from what i can tell via the congressional report). the idea was to expose the retail system that supplied mexican-based DTO (DRUG TRAFFICKING ORGANIZATIONS, an acronym i just learned and which makes me laugh), apparently, by releasing a shit-load of guns into that system in order to "track" them by not really tracking them so much.

from what i read, that was a really stupid idea.

and strangely enough, the fact that there is an investigation into this really bad idea would lead one to think that, for once, things worked more or less as they were supposed to, yes?

probably not.

but what i don't really see is why, beyond predictably self-serving mercenary political gain, the right has its panties in a bunch about this. it doesn't really fit with the ruby-ridge/waco set's penchant for frothing about the atf---if you read the congressional report, the atf was en bloc resistant to the really stupid plan and most of the whistleblowers come from the atf. the policy was apparently a doj brainchild, though of course everyone scurries away when a stupid idea reveals its stupidity by being a stupid idea.

and there's little possibility that actually being opposed to the lunacy of the international small arms trade is a motivation.

i mean, tons of guns circulating everywhere by means public and private in a context where the only real criterion about customers is whether they can pay or not---what's to worry about? wars all over the southern hemisphere, particulary in africa--particularly in the congo, the carnage from which over the past decade is unimaginable and invisible to the righteous roger-ailes directed asshats at fox news...not real problematic.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/home.html

but this?

problem.

no, while i am pretty sure this plan was really really stupid i suspect there's something pretty base and partisan about all the panty-bunching.

Plan9 · 07-06-2011, 01:27 PM

C'mon, Roachboy... it's scientific fact that Africa doesn't exist on the news networks of White People in the West.

Far too much "little murdered white girl" to watch.

...

Also:

"Fast and Furious" Blows Sky High

BATFE Acting Director Kenneth Melson testifies to Congress that senior DOJ officials worked to prevent the BATFE from talking to Congress about OpFaF

I can't wait to see the highlights of that testimony.

roachboy · 07-06-2011, 05:57 PM

this is a turf fight between atf and doj that's using this remarkably stupid idea as a way to happen. the audience for it---judging from the media outlets and spin that's being applied---are likely to misinterpret it. they're certainly being set up to do so. the game here is another round of the right's endgame strategy of anything that damages the obama administration is a priori good for them. the pathetic thing--and it really is pathetic---is that absent any coherent left opposition---which is richly deserved for a clinton-style centrist democrat in classic dlc mode---the right does stand maybe to benefit because they're talking in a vacuum. this explains my general despair about operating within the conventional soft-authoritarian american system that (too often i suspect) comes through in my posts. despair on the one hand combined with a "you have got to be shitting me" when i look at mobilized conservative factions.

i wish i had some idea of what to do. i live here too. and the right is a fucking disaster waiting to happen.

dksuddeth · 07-07-2011, 10:27 AM

this is more than just a turf fight between ATF and DOJ. Despite Melson's pre-interview against the wishes of the DOJ (lets face it, Melson wants to save his ass here), The only ATF people that argued against this illegally bad idea is the ground pounding agents. especially after one of those guns ended up in the murder of a border patrol agent.

besides the inference of right/left bickering and bantering, is it just a stupid idea for the ATF to break the law to enforce the law, or is it also a criminal act originating with the DOJ?

Not Me · 07-07-2011, 11:12 AM

Thanks guys for the information and the links. I enjoy it.

07-03-2011, 02:13 AM	#1 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Operation Fast and Furious, ATF illegally releasing weapons into Mexico Maybe this is old news to a lot of you, but while on youtube recently under "suggestions" was a video about the BATF's program of releasing hundreds of guns into Mexico, some of which may have been used to kill a US border patrol agent. And of course the obligatory cover-up afterwards. Here's the particular video that I saw: YouTube - ‪GOOD COPS, BAD COPS and a LYING GOVERNMENT.‬&rlm; There's also a wiki entry on it if you prefer something with a little less commentary: Operation Fast and Furious - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The sad thing is I'm not really sure if I was surprised or not. Of course we had the Iran-Contra scandal back in the 80's and right now the US military is officially protecting opium fields, so should I be shocked that one of the main agencies in charge of enforcing firearms regulations is itself breaking the law? I guess not. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-03-2011, 06:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	This thread belongs in Tilted Politics, not Tilted Weaponry. In the future, reference The Rules of Tilted Weaponry. Please stop ruining the one place on TFP I can enjoy. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 07-03-2011 at 06:17 AM..

07-03-2011, 02:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Let me rephrase what hrdwareguy said in the link: If it doesn't have to do with the technical specifications (guns, accessories, ammo, etc.), use and handling techniques (shooting) or the history and development of the aforementioned, it doesn't belong in Tilted Weaponry. Seeing that the BATFE is a no-shit government agency and any talk involving a government agency is inherently political, this topic does not belong in Tilted Weaponry. Tilted Politics is the tar pit where such topics go to bray like drunken men with big muttonchops and jack off on themselves. The asinine "girls with guns" thread is bad enough. I've seriously had it with the lack of moderation in Tilted Weaponry. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 07-03-2011 at 02:14 PM..

07-03-2011, 02:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I just worked four and a half months without a day off... I have a gnarly case of Go Fuck Yaself. * ...and you... you just bought a sweet Daniel Defense rifle and have nothing to say about it. Color me disappointed. * Les Grossman (Tropic Thunder) reference __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 07-03-2011 at 03:04 PM..

07-05-2011, 05:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
Confederate Death Leprechaun Location: College Station, TX	I didn't have anything nice to say so a staffer came along and edited my post for me. Last edited by The_Jazz; 07-05-2011 at 07:39 AM.. Reason: remove flame

07-03-2011, 10:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
remy1492 Crazy Location: CA TX LU	reminds me of sitting at a range bench with my AK all alone. Then hours later some old fart comes with his supra AR with black crap all over it to shoot one round an hour. He gets irked as my soviet cases fly haphazardly to and fro toward him and his precious scoped and waxed beauty. Gives me that look like I was the cong' he fought back in 68' but.......... I WAS THERE FIRST Don't come to the range and sit next to an AK! Its the one bench I can use and I don't wanna give it up.

07-03-2011, 03:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	How about moving this thread to general discussion? This seems like a good & compromising move to me. That way, those that are particularly allergic to: politics cooties, can avoid being bitten. I agree this topic doesn't fit the criteria for Tilted Weaponry, as written some quite a few ages ago.

07-05-2011, 05:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Pardon me, I can't hear you over the hard vacuum that is the body of your contributions to Tilted Weaponry. Or, ya know, Tilted anything, for that matter. You have a hard time reading The Rules (TM), too? I know they're difficult. HrdWareGuy went so far as to put it at a 7th grade level and yet here we are. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

07-05-2011, 07:36 AM	#13 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Because you're all so fucking high up on your own soap boxes, I'm moving this to General Discussion. And because the only person that realized THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO WAS TO REPORT SOMETHING was a moderator who's not involved in the discussion, we'll do this here: Plan9, you're not a moderator. You're not "in charge" of Tilted Weaponry. This isn't your private playground. Stop being the bossy 8-year old girl telling everyone that they're playing kickball wrong. Confederate, this is the second time I've seen you flame someone for their contributions when you're making very few of your own. That will get dealt with separately. remy - stick to the topic at hand. From here on out, off-topic posts in this thread will be deleted. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

07-05-2011, 10:02 AM	#14 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	1. Mexico's gun laws need to change. 2. The corruption and crime need to be dealt with. 3. We should help the Mexicans cut down on the drug traffic coming into the US. 4. We probably should help train their agents and give them some intel.

07-05-2011, 11:00 AM	#16 (permalink)
Confederate Death Leprechaun Location: College Station, TX	Ha didn't mean to get anyone butthurt about all this. The weaponry forum has 5 month old threads still on the first page, it needs all the help it can get. Last edited by Confederate; 07-05-2011 at 11:15 AM..

07-05-2011, 12:08 PM	#17 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	This operation had nothing to do with tracking weapons: ATF whistleblowers have repeatedly confirmed to Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley, as well as Mexican journalists, that they were specifically forbidden to track or interdict the "walked" guns amd were told instead to wait until the weapons "surfaced at a crime scene" ie until people were murdered. Mexican authorities were kept oit of the loop. Concerns from FFLS were brushed aside. Emails submitted to Rep. Issa (late, redacted, and only under threat of arrest for Contempt Of Congress) show ATF supervisors "giddy" at the thought of these guns being used in violent crimes. This operation existed for one purpose only: to deliberately increase the number of traceable US-origin weapons used in Mexican crimes, in order to rehabilitate the totally-discredited lie, peddled by the Obama Administration in defiance of all facts, that huge majorities of Mexican "crime guns" originated in the US. It was nothing but a macabre effort to pad dishonest figures which even the Wikileaks diplomatic cables showed to be bald-faced lies, and then use these lies to ram through the anti-gun measures which Mr. Obama has never been shy about desiring. The only "pigfuck" here as far as ATF and the Holder DoJ are concerned is that they got caught, and that Dave Codrea et al made too much noise to be ignored. __________________ "I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world." --Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

07-05-2011, 05:42 PM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	can someone who is more up on the particularities of this situation provide links to information so that i can get up to speed on them? i'm interested, but am catching up. thanks... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-05-2011, 07:04 PM	#19 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Wiki - BATFE's Operation Fast and Furious Plenty of FOX and CNN tidbits to play with until you get to actual .GOV documents. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 07-05-2011 at 07:07 PM..

07-06-2011, 12:21 PM	#21 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so we have republican-controlled committees looking to find something beyond a remarkably stupid idea here and the usual right-wing media outlets hooting and hollering about it and the ruby-ridge set gnashing it's teeth about the evils of atf even as it seems that the problems/really bad ideas originated with doj and were compounded by a considerable bureaucratic conflict (from what i can tell via the congressional report). the idea was to expose the retail system that supplied mexican-based DTO (DRUG TRAFFICKING ORGANIZATIONS, an acronym i just learned and which makes me laugh), apparently, by releasing a shit-load of guns into that system in order to "track" them by not really tracking them so much. from what i read, that was a really stupid idea. and strangely enough, the fact that there is an investigation into this really bad idea would lead one to think that, for once, things worked more or less as they were supposed to, yes? probably not. but what i don't really see is why, beyond predictably self-serving mercenary political gain, the right has its panties in a bunch about this. it doesn't really fit with the ruby-ridge/waco set's penchant for frothing about the atf---if you read the congressional report, the atf was en bloc resistant to the really stupid plan and most of the whistleblowers come from the atf. the policy was apparently a doj brainchild, though of course everyone scurries away when a stupid idea reveals its stupidity by being a stupid idea. and there's little possibility that actually being opposed to the lunacy of the international small arms trade is a motivation. i mean, tons of guns circulating everywhere by means public and private in a context where the only real criterion about customers is whether they can pay or not---what's to worry about? wars all over the southern hemisphere, particulary in africa--particularly in the congo, the carnage from which over the past decade is unimaginable and invisible to the righteous roger-ailes directed asshats at fox news...not real problematic. http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/home.html but this? problem. no, while i am pretty sure this plan was really really stupid i suspect there's something pretty base and partisan about all the panty-bunching. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-06-2011, 01:27 PM	#22 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	C'mon, Roachboy... it's scientific fact that Africa doesn't exist on the news networks of White People in the West. Far too much "little murdered white girl" to watch. ... Also: "Fast and Furious" Blows Sky High BATFE Acting Director Kenneth Melson testifies to Congress that senior DOJ officials worked to prevent the BATFE from talking to Congress about OpFaF I can't wait to see the highlights of that testimony. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 07-06-2011 at 02:31 PM..

07-06-2011, 05:57 PM	#23 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	this is a turf fight between atf and doj that's using this remarkably stupid idea as a way to happen. the audience for it---judging from the media outlets and spin that's being applied---are likely to misinterpret it. they're certainly being set up to do so. the game here is another round of the right's endgame strategy of anything that damages the obama administration is a priori good for them. the pathetic thing--and it really is pathetic---is that absent any coherent left opposition---which is richly deserved for a clinton-style centrist democrat in classic dlc mode---the right does stand maybe to benefit because they're talking in a vacuum. this explains my general despair about operating within the conventional soft-authoritarian american system that (too often i suspect) comes through in my posts. despair on the one hand combined with a "you have got to be shitting me" when i look at mobilized conservative factions. i wish i had some idea of what to do. i live here too. and the right is a fucking disaster waiting to happen. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-07-2011, 10:27 AM	#24 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	this is more than just a turf fight between ATF and DOJ. Despite Melson's pre-interview against the wishes of the DOJ (lets face it, Melson wants to save his ass here), The only ATF people that argued against this illegally bad idea is the ground pounding agents. especially after one of those guns ended up in the murder of a border patrol agent. besides the inference of right/left bickering and bantering, is it just a stupid idea for the ATF to break the law to enforce the law, or is it also a criminal act originating with the DOJ? __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

07-07-2011, 11:12 AM	#25 (permalink)
Not Me Upright Location: Mississippi	Thanks guys for the information and the links. I enjoy it.