Punk.of.Ages

It's funny how a black chick in a skimpy dress can lead to a race riot!

When it comes down to it, it's very likely this girl didn't get her way, made a scene, and was escorted away.

My guess is this story was made into news in order to do exactly what it has done here....

Success for someone I guess.

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Frosstbyte

I don't understand why we're not allowed to learn from our experiences when it comes to race. That's how your brain works. You take in inputs from what happens to or around you and you generalize it so that you can more quickly and easily adapt to similar situations in the future. While certainly not reflective of the entire planet, I can count the number of violent, loud fights I've seen in public amongst all non-black people on one hand and I couldn't begin to count the number of fights I've seen in public amongst black people.

I know EXACTLY what RG is saying about this situation and I know EXACTLY why he's saying it. That doesn't make either one of us racist. All learning requires some generalization, and this generalization given the facts before us is well within reason and not KKK-inspired craziness.

Edit: Ustwo said what I meant to say much more succinctly. Go him.

There is also a not insignificant difference between "black girls are obnoxious" and "a black girl who thinks a dress like that is appropriate attire for a high school prom is likely to respond aggressively when confronted for breaking the rules."

Bill O'Rights

Isn't it? Maybe...maybe not. But, I didn't read where anyone actually said..."black girls are obnoxious".

RetroGunslinger said "And knowing how black teenage girls tend to react to those types of situations, I'm guessing she didn't take it sitting down."

You read..."black girls are obnoxious"

Why?

Because you got the exact same Springeresque image that the rest of us did. Of a loud unruly black teen, hand on hip, head bobbing, finger waving, going "oh no you ditnt". Ever seen that? I have. Many times. from an overwhelmingly black source. Oh sure...you see the occasional white girl doing it. But then you just think...she's acting all black. That is where stereotypes come from. You wanna fight 'em great. But ignoring them is tantamount to burying your head in the sand. It's there, and it's there for a reason.

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It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Punk.of.Ages

/me points this out as kindly and unbiased as possible.

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"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

RetroGunslinger

[EDIT - Beat me to it, Punk]

I did write "black girls are obnoxious" somewhere.

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Bill O'Rights

Mea cuulpa.

But, my point still stands. Where did the view that "black girls are obnoxious" (be that some, most or all) come from? Observed behavior and conditioning. Yet, we're told to ignore that. We're wrong. What we see...is not so. The fault must belong to ourselves for seeing what we see. And to acknowledge it? Absolutely reprehensible.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Frosstbyte

It's been a very bizarre consequence of the political correctness movement, and I dn't understand it even in the slightest.

georgezepeda

I used to live in this suburb. Hahaha, it's such a conservative town I would be interested in seeing how much of an uproar it's causing there.

Willravel

Is that anything like "Mea Kahlua", or the latin phrase for when it's your fault you're drunk off kahlua?

abaya

BoR, and other who seem to think that I'm calling for blindness/ignoring the girl's "race," I'll quote myself from earlier in case you didn't see it:In other words, in my mind there's a distinction between saying that "race" has some relevance to a person's behavior, and saying that it is the most important and MAIN explanation of someone's behavior.

To me, that's not an issue of political correctness, but I already know that's going to fall on several deaf ears. So be it. These conversations never go anywhere, anyway. (Although Retro, I do appreciate the candor in your follow-up responses.)

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RetroGunslinger

I understand where you're coming from, and I feel sort of badly for starting all of this. I've made a mountain of an ant hill, as the OP was simply about a girl being stupid, with no real significance in and of itself.

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Cynthetiq

sometimes it's just an article, sometimes the reveal is in how the community acts and responds, think of the episode in Twilight Zone wherein they turned off the power from the houses, and people thought their neighbors were aliens...

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

sapiens

It may be that people base their judgments of the frequency of a characteristic in a group on the ease to which it comes to mind (a la the availability heuristic). Obnoxious black women are more noticeable than the many non-obnoxious black women. Consequently, people may base their estimates of the frequency of that characteristic on the ease to which it comes to mind rather than it's actual base rate in the population.

abaya

Yes. This follows up on what Jinn said in post #35: In any case, don't mess with sapiens. The man knows his stuff.

Well, as I said, I appreciate your candor. So far, you're the only one who's willing to change your mind on the topic. You're a rare breed among this crowd of TFP'ers...

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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*Nikki*

What she had on is not even close to looking anything at all like a dress. Enough said.

abaya

Btw, reading this thread again... and Will, since you responded to my earlier question with this: I have to ask: in what way did those two things lead you to pull up that chart earlier in the thread? I mean, I'm kind of surprised here, Will... do you stand by what that chart is communicating?

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albania

A very odd but interesting tangent seems to have taken place. First, I guess I’ll respond to the opening post. To which there isn’t much to say; like clockwork almost every year a story like this makes headlines. Though this is the first that I can remember where the girl was handcuffed, but in any case it doesn’t seem to me to be such a big deal(but maybe the girl feels otherwise).

Now to the more interesting tangent. It is odd that race should make it’s way here, not in the fact that the subject is only superficially related to the case, but in the way which it arose. An offhand comment is commented on, then the first comment is expounded on(poorly in my, and apparently in other people’s opinion), then it’s defended by people who seem to be trying to make an almost totally different point, or perhaps it is that some people saw the glimmer of an internal argument they had been fermenting in their brains and projected it onto this case.

The argument as it was made in post #20(and apparently worded incorrectly) seemed from my point of view to summarize to this: From my experience(of some black girls) the majority of (all)black girls are (let’s put it nicely) illogical in tense interpersonal situations.

Since this wasn’t what was meant I’ll take it as an honest mistake and leave it at that.

The second argument that seemed to spring independently in my view summarizes to this, and since I think I’m paraphrasing couple of people you’ll have to forgive the liberties I take in generalizing it further than anyone actually posted:
Given the assumption that viable trends of behavior can be helpful in predicting future behavior. When this trend is observed impartially it can be thought of as generally correct in the absence of other contradicting facts insofar as it does not deprive anyone of any legal rights.

In developing the above I’ve sort of grown tired of the point I was trying to make so I’ll just cut to it without much elaboration. The first sentence as worded might as well be a tautology(unfortunately I think I might have learned to much math to be able to spuriously write it as fact),. In any case I included it for posterity and perhaps because it self-servingly makes my point clearer. In itself there appears nothing wrong, logically, with what is in italics above(of course feel free to interject and point out if you think I’ve wrongly worded the argument). However, as I see it, the motivation behind such a line of thinking is best suited for multimillion dollar corporations that deal with consumer trends(or our cave-man ancestors, an evolutionary account as to why this type of thinking might be beneficiary is in my view sophomoric; since I’ve noticed that when one goes down this line of thinking it generally becomes a penchant for wild speculation, and I only skirt the issue in the form of an over-elaborated quip here) and in itself is contrary to the ideals of our laws. Whose spirit(though perhaps not necessarily in practice) do not allow for such overarching judgment. So to me it seems that such a view is practically unnecessary for an individual in this day and age and flies in the face of the politically developed moral fiber of our state.

sapiens

It does less than follow up. It repeats his post with added jargon. Thank you for pointing out his post.

uncle phil

all ya gotta do is look at her...

did she violate a dress code?

criminy...

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Manic_Skafe

Just as we have in the sexuality forum for shaving and penis size - we totally need a sticky thread for culture and race issues. It's nice to see all the activity but this is getting a little tedious.

And as for the hoochie dress, I can't help but to wonder not only what her parents thought of it but how she ever convinced them to pay for it. The cuffs were a bit too much but she totally could've worn them as an accessory.

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ASU2003

It's the land of the free I tell you.

You just have to follow everyone else's rules.

I support her right to do whatever she wants to do to be happy. But, I also don't want to pay taxes to raise any babies she might have.

blahblah454

Nice dress. If she were my daughter I would beat her for trying to even wear that out of the house.

I think its funny that she signed a waiver stated what can be worn and then showed up in that. Just goes to show you that you can get people to sign anything you want them too. Makes you feel good knowing something so stupid as a signature holds so much power (in the case of credit, and contracts and such)

Cynthetiq

no I'm not surprised at that at all. People sign a document and have it notarized stating they will not harbor dogs as part of the agreement to live in our buildings here in NYC... and what do they do? they go out and get a dog after they move in.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Psycho Dad

I hate to see where we would be without signatures. As hard as it is now to hold some people accountable for promises and responsibilities, can you imagine what it would be like without the proof of a signed document?

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Strange Famous

the land of the free?

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
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without being uncovered."

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Cynthetiq

seems kind of a trollish statement.

You aren't free to walk about the streets with your dick swinging about... You aren't allow to fuck on the sidewalk...
You can't wear what you want in some jobs...

so how is "Land of the Free" relevant?

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

telekinetic

Yep. Schools are free to create and enforce dress codes for their private events.

USA! USA!

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twisted no more

Strange Famous

a school kid shouldnt be lead away from a prom in handcuffs cos she turned up in a revealing dress.

I havent seen any evidence that she indecently exposed herself... but even if she DID, even if she committed some other crime of sufficient seriousness to warrant arrest - handcuffs? What kind of police force needs to handcuff a schoolgirl cos she is wearing a sexy dress and gets pissed off that she isnt allowed into her prom? The police involved are lucky that they only suffer mockery... they should be horsewhipped

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

RetroGunslinger

It appears that she made a scene about it, and as any current high schooler will tell you, the cops take shit reeeaaally seriously at school and school functions.

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Strange Famous

well, I hope arresting schoolgirls at a school dance makes them feel like big men...

As you say school crime must be a big priority... I guess there are no drug pushers, property crimes, murders, sexual assaults, bank frauds, etc so the police have plenty of time to arrest kids who get angry about not getting ino a dance.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Cynthetiq

what does the feelings of the police have to do with "big men"

your statements are so disjointed that I don't understand what you are saying.

If the principal was a woman would she be a "big woman"?

If anything has taught us anything, teens are volatile and can be problematic. A troubled teen in Iceland recently posted on his blog that he wanted to shoot his schoolmates. A Finnish teen shot 8 classmates before turning the gun on himself. The Scottish boy in Dunblane who shot 16 kids and 1 adult.

I don't have to remind you about Columbine where the kids shot up the school not because they couldn't go to a dance, but because they didn't have friends.

But hey, you keep making it look like the police have nothing to worry about...

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Tully Mars

The cuff issue is likely policy. If they felt they had to removed her not using the cuffs wasn't an option I'd guess. The story and the video don't really explain why they felt they had to remove her. My guess is if she left on her own they would have let her, the paper work involved in something like this simply isn't usually worth it.

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ASU2003

But kids (or young adults without the money to get to Amsterdam or Ibiza) aren't free to do what they want. Just force them to stay in line and follow the leader.

Ustwo

I thought of this, but in that case it would have no predictive value.

I forget what % of the population blacks are to other races in the us, something around 11-15% I think. So when you read a story about 'girl wears something inappropriate and gets led out in cuffs' there should be a only around a 15% chance or less of that girl being black, yet there were so many of us were thinking it.

Likewise I can understand why I wouldn't associate bad behavior with someone who 'looks like me' on racial terms, but then I should be more aware of obnoxious asian women or indian, and yet, I am not.

If someone says 'serial killer' and thinks 'white male' should I be offended or feel its a racist thing to do? To be fair there have been serial killers of other races, but if I read about a creepy, bodies in the crawl space, doing it for years serial killer, I'm going to be shocked if its NOT a white male doing it.

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Psycho Dad

My first thought when I saw the headline a couple of days ago on cnn.com was that the girl was white. I suspicioned that the girl wanted to display herself in a Paris Hiltonish manner. It was after seeing the video that I made a generalization that she threw a shit fit. And like you, I'm not feeling guilty or apologizing for it. And I still suspect that the shit fit was the cause of the cuffs being brought out.

Maybe these opinions we form when we see things like this are the closest things we have to instinct. I think we base our feelings on the matter on past experiences, but to a degree it is easier or safer than assuming that everyone is like us. Sometimes we are wrong or our opinions or feelings are not on par with another's. Political correctness and the belief that we should be one big, warm and fuzzy group of people hypersensitive to other's above ourselves make some want to forget we are still emotional creatures.

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grumpyolddude

This was the first response to go anywhere near my own initial reaction.
There are serious issues to be addressed concerning raising our young, and this thread gets bogged down with race As for the rest of this crapolla... Cynthetiq's signature says it best.

I wouldn't take the situation to the place tha blahblah454 suggests, (Originally Posted by blahblah454:
"Nice dress. If she were my daughter I would beat her for trying to even wear that out of the house.") but then, I'm rather confident that my daughter wouldn't make that kind of choice.

The school authorities were absolutely right in denying her entrance. The dress code was clearly stated. If the girl had simply left the scene civilly, the police would have never been involved.

As for those who question the police's handling of the situation: Their job, as I see it, was to defuse things before they got out of hand. If, in their estimation, the young lady was irritated to the point that she may have physically resisted being removed from the scene, then they were correct in using the cuffs as a precautionary restraint, as much to protect her as anyone else.

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Psycho Dad

It is far from bogged down. And any discussion concerning racial and cultural differences is going to go farther toward solving those serious issues than ignoring those differences.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Strange Famous

Why are you calling Thomas Hamilton (who was a middle aged man) a "Scottish boy"?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

grumpyolddude

I see your point. But I think the OP was about a young person, an agreed to manner of behavior, and the deliberate flaunting of same. We have made our discussion about the color of her skin, rather than the bad behavior.

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RetroGunslinger

As much as I didn't want to lead the discussion down such a path, I don't think there's any more enlightening discussion to be had about a girl with bad behavior. I think the general consensus is that she shouldn't have dressed as she had, since she had signed a statement saying she would not do so. As for the police, one or two members seem to think they went too far, but I haven't seen any real argument that they weren't doing what was right, assuming she was as argumentative as it would appear. So, the discussion has evolved into something not only more intriguing, but with more depth to it.

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