Polygamy Compound Release
 

How does this make you feel?

The Facts:
This is not just an issue in Texas. Places like this compound still exist in Utah and Arizona. There are also several large Colonies in Mexico.

In 1890, the president of the LDS church called an end to polygamy. Since then, any practicing polygamist has been excommunicated from the LDS church. The FLDS church was founded during this era. At one point, the FLDS had strongholds stretching from southern Canada, through Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, and into Mexico. They regularly smuggled their polygomist leaders from one settlement to the next, over state and federal lines, in an attempt to protect them from the law.

My Opinion:
I am mad and disturbed that people allow this lifestyle to continue. Forced polygamy, as practiced by the FLDS needs to be stopped.
I wonder why it has taken so long for this group to be taken down. I am relieved that the police finally came to the rescue of what I view as prisoners. My cousin, who lives in Utah, and is devout LDS (not FLDS) explained once to me how she would go to extreme lengths to pick up any woman hitchiker, because they were most likely escaping an FLDS compound. She actively supported a couple of organizations that worked to provide women escaping from this life with proper healthcare, counseling, and housing.

I don't like the wording of the question of this thread at all. I am also not in possession of all the facts...

I am going to give my gut feeling first: polygamy is OK. If you can get multiple women willing to marry you, good for you.

Beating people is not OK. Forcing women in to polygamy is not OK. If this practice is still going on you can change my vote to "Should be stopped."

If this is the truth then I have been educated.

What facts would you like? I'll hunt them down for you.

As it stands, you have an article in front of you that indicates there is at least one 16-year old girl who has escaped a frightening situation in which she was married to an older man with multiple wives against her will.

Honestly, I'll get more facts and throw them out there if you'd like them. Perhaps I am wrong to assume others are not as well-versed on this topic.

Plenty of info for me.

Children are not capable of making adult decisions. Period.

It's clear abuse of power, abuse of children, abuse of religion.

Besides, why would they need armed guards if they knew their behavior was legal? If adult women want to be a part of this, that's fine. As long as no prodding was required, they can make their own decisions.

Genuinegirly: My cousin, who lives in Utah, and is devout LDS (not FLDS).


Thank you for stating this sentence. I have family who are deeply faithful to the LDS/Mormon religion but DO NOT practice any of the outrageous customs that the FLDS do. Sometimes when people hear the mere mention of Mormon or Church of Latter Day Saints they think they are all that way.

As for my personal opinion: Polygamy is right in line with human trafficking and slavery. If you choose to live a certain way then that is your right however; these woman rarely choose to live like this.

Remember that "What's your anti-drug?" campaign?

Stories like these are my "What's your anti-god?" response.

Bunch of people using a stretchy concept to justify their perversion. That's a general statement, too. FLDS leaders may like to have a lot of women. LDS leaders certainly like to have a lot of money. Same with evangelists. Ahh hell.. this is a tired subject.

I don't agree with polygamy but I don't think pulling all of those children out will make any real significant difference towards correcting the polygamist mindset instilled in them.

Prosecute those that have obviously broken the law and help those that actually want to leave. Everything else seems to be a waste of effort.

And also, Big Love rocks!

I don't have any issue with polygamy. If people are happy and aren't hurting anyone it's not my place to say if they're right or wrong.

I am, of course, opposed to the idea of sex with minors and forced sex. Those aren't inexcusable and should not be tolerated.

Let's not suggest that these are always one and the same, though. I know of several polygamous relationships that are very happy and healthy. In those cases it seems reasonable to me to allow those people to continue to be happy and to flourish in their collective relationship(s?). Condemning polygamy seems kinda prudish and closed minded. I wonder if polygamy will become the new "gay" in the coming years where polygamous rights are fought for. If that is the case, expect me to fight for what I believe is right, just as in the cases of homosexual rights.

I'm rather concerned that an anonymous non-verified complaint can give federal agents the power to invade your property and take your children from you.

I think such societies do end up almost invariably in statutory rape, and they can be difficult to get away from, but there is a line that seemed to be crossed when just the suspicion is enough for the government to do something like this.

"I am confident that this girl does indeed exist," Meisner said. "I am confident that the allegations that she brought forth are accurate."

She better damn well exist and they better damn well be accurate.

Good point Ustwo. (hell freezing over)

What judge would have signed a warrant where the victim's existence was in question?

Jon Krakauer wrote an excellent expose about the FLDS church in 2003, Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith. (It's irrelevant, but one of my first posts here at TFP was on this same subject. :))

The book has firsthand accounts of life inside these compounds and speaks extensively about Warren Jeffs and his father and predecessor, Rulon, who died at the age of 92, the proud husband of 75 wives and 65 childrens. Why here he is now with two of his, right, you guessed it - wives:

I've taken this picture out because I'm an idiot and I'm not sure at all that those girls were 18. doh.

The book will leave very little doubt as to whether we should be intervening in these groups. Polygamy isn't even the issue. It is the coercion of young girls into these marriages where they are given no choice over their own lives. The physical, sexual and emotional abuse of girls runs rampant through these communities as you might imagine in a society where total patriarchal control of their lives is the standard. They grow up knowing they will have no choices. And the church encourages families (even through intimidation and threats) to completely estrange anyone who leaves the church. It's really an interesting book and highlights a lot of facets of this cult that you might not ordinarily think about.

So again, consensual polygamy is, to me, totally irrelevant to this issue.

The book also goes extensively into how their societies and governance works and it will leave you wondering how the hell this is allowed to go on in this country. And for all you conservatives here, you will especially love the part of the book that discusses the huge burden these families put on the welfare system while they actively dissent and demonize the US government. It's a million laughs. :)

immediately thought of "Survivor" by Chuck Pahluniak

Actually I know a mormon who was a doctor in school and on welfare for his pregnant wife.

He was a democrat too, which is rare for them, but a different topic.

I am talking about the FLDS church in which there are men supporting double digit wives and children and defrauding the government to do so.

Oh, and tax evasion as a religious statement against our demonic government is quite common, too.

You ought to read the book. It's very enlightening.

Thanks, mixedmedia - hit it right on with that statement.

I support anyone who chooses polyandry, polygyny, and other poly lifestyles.

This thread was not started with the intent to bash any of said lifestyles.

I am deeply sorry if I have offended anyone by not stating this at the get-go.

Interestingly from a genetic stand point, these men's lines will live on and perhaps become the dominant genes in the future.

When its all said and done, I will have two children with my gene's unless my wife and I have a change of heart on that, and the one in the picture has 65.

Darwin approves, at least in a reproductive sense.

Thanks for the statement "their form of polygamy." I actually just had this discussion with a dear friend of mine this morning, regarding my relationship. I have two people I love deeply and would marry in a minute, but am not legally allowed to do so. The kicker is, we're all consenting adults, not a group of scared teenagers who are told "Do it or God will punish you!" It makes me sick to my stomach to hear about the girls who live in that situation, and on the flip side of that coin it makes me furious that people hear "polygamy" and think "child abuse" because of people like this.

Thanks, FLDS! :thumbsup:

Another article from CNN today, I've highlighted a few points.


Augi, I think those 401 court affidavits might have some of what you're looking for.

This isn't about polygamy, it's about a castle in the middle of Texas where "religious" people can go to have a harem of brainwashed wives and molest kids. If Warren Jeffs had been there, this would have been Waco II; just look at the design of the place, it's a castle with a wide courtyard and high, narrow windows, exactly where you'd want to be to defend against an attacking army. They allegedly had weapons stockpiled, but everyone is lucky they didn't get used.

99% of the judges would sign said warrant because they would have no culpability in any wrongdoing....because it's better 'safe' than sorry. a result of our wanting the government to take care of us.

I'm not sure where the founding fathers stood on child molestation. In light of their stances on whether nonwhites were people, I'm not sure I want to know. That being said, I don't think the right to express your religious convictions should extend to sexual abuse.

I also don't necessarily have a problem with the government following up on a tip of child sexual abuse.

Perhaps, but this stuff has been going on plain view for a long, long, long time. People have written books about it, made documentaries about it - we've even had tv movies made about it, for pete's sake.

I'm telling you guys, read the book and you'll be asking yourself why it took so long.



One reason why, that I learned from this book was because of a raid that happened in the 1950's that gained a lot of negative attention. Therefore, there has been a hands-off attitude on the behalf of law enforcement.

But I think the nature of the marriages has become much more perverse as they have been more and more isolated and more and more interbred over the succeeding decades.

The right thing has been done here. Finally.

Oh, and everyone's probably aware, but Jon Krakauer is a respected journalist (Into the Wild, Into Thin Air) and not some scandal-mongerer.

Actually if you go back to my original post, I'm of the opinion that these groups are almost always involved in statutory rape.

Its not so much was the right thing done, its was it done for the right reason.

I also think most hippies are pot smokers, so does that mean its ok if someone anonymously says there is a stash of pot at one of the few remaining communes and they do a drug raid based on this anonymous phone call, where they search the entire compound and question everyone about it?

With all the whining these days about the patriot act, I'm surprised so few of the same people who decry that as somehow stepping on the constitution think something like this is ok.

Do I think these people are guilty? Hell ya, bunch of wack jobs in my book, but due process is a price you pay to be free, and if that means you have to actually have a case against the wack jobs thats more than an anonymous phonecall, before you cart everyone off and separate fathers from their children so be it.

I understand this and can agree with it.

And you'll have to pardon me because I have not been following the current story all that closely. Are they telling the news media all the facts that led to the warrant and what they found when they got there?

You're right in that, if it comes out in the days ahead that this warrant was issued based solely on an anonymous phone call, then I will be a hypocrit for thinking it was still the right thing to do and that it could open the door for actions that I would find egregiously improper. Therefore, if indeed the warrant was issued improperly, it would be proper for any prosecutions that may go forward from this raid to be thrown out of court - as regrettable as that would be. But I will not regret the spotlight that is being focused on this group and will hope that the next time they do it right.

You're right, it's a slippery slope politically. I can only hope at this point that we haven't been told all of the facts.

Well that didn't take long...

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8847459

Its hard to have sympathy for these people, and I don't, but I think there needs to be a way of monitoring separatists for illegal activities without trampling on their rights.

I don't know where that happy medium is.

There isn't and there can't be. People either have rights, or they don't. The way things have been sliding down the slope, now all one needs to do is make an anonymous phone call about drugs, guns, child abuse/neglect, or some other socially repugnant issue and tada, an instant SWAT raid on your home. Hooray for freedom, you get to have your door ripped off it's hinges, automatic weapons pointed at the faces of your family members, try on high grade handcuffs, lay on the ground for an hour or more, and all while the police get to ransack every room in your home until they find evidence of any crime. THEN, if nothing is found, you'll get to be released, usually with no apology, and then have to salvage what's left of your personal belongings, pride, and humanity as you try to assuage your families terror of having armed people swarm your home while you tell them they just wanted to 'protect' you. :thumbsup:

Well thats true and not true.

I agree with you for the most part. The difference between these kids and 'normal' kids is that they are never outside of their parents/church influence. If someone is abusing a child in main stream society they are often caught due to a doctor visit, how they act in school, just something they say in passing to a stranger can trigger a red flag. I was required by law to report ANYTHING that looked like abuse or neglect while working a free clinic, and there were a few cases that seemed pretty borderline on that I had to deal with.

Now I have no real issue with the concept of home schooling, or even a religious community, but I would not have a libertarian hissy fit if basic level competency exams were mandated for home schooled children at certain ages to prove they were in fact getting an education and at the same time look for at least overt signs of abuse.

It's not as if the Feds knew nothing about the place. The compound has been under the eye of the feds since they started building it. They have been openly marrying preteens to grown men for decades. Early teenage boys get tossed out of town.

not sure about other states, but TX does require testing for competency in home school environments, and I actually agree that they should be done.
Unless children are not allowed outside at all (I know that in 'compounds' this would be difficult) then some signs of actual abuse should be noticable.

I have a real problem with the FLDS brand of polygamy. These type of communities are rife with abuse and coerced marriage. Small polygamist communities exist all over Utah but nothing is ever done about it. If an adult woman chooses to enter into a polygamist marriage...great, I don't have a problem with that. A 13 or 14 year old girl is not mature enough to make that decision, nor is she mature enough to be having a baby that young. I'm glad this happened and it's about damn time, IMO.

Another update...

Ahh what a life. Start a franchise that keeps producing spunky young brides.