Woman Tortured to Death
 

I read this article and found myself weeping before I finished. Simply can not believe anyone could treat another human being in such an inhumane manner.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080321/...HL6Zcxk10E1vAI

It's hard to feel that people capable of such things are part of the same species as the rest of us. I can understand violence and aggression, but this kind of cruelty seems far far more alien.

Man, I couldnt even finish reading that.

Agreed. I read this earlier and tried to formulate a reply, but this is one of those rare situations where words have failed me completely. I don't even know how to react to this; right now I'm not even feeling outrage so much as stunned incredulity and a deep melancholy. I hate even thinking that anyone is capable of this sort of thing. I just don't know what to say.

TM - why did you post this? I feel awful now.

Nasty, but I think I was expecting even worse like Charlie Manson or something.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens with some regularity to the mentally handicapped, the aged and kids.

I didn't click the link. I mean if a puppy being killed made me go off so much I almost got myself banned, I can't imagine what this could do.

I'll just go on record saying that I tend to agree with Tully, Strange, Mango, Mars and Jazz on most things, so yeah this is almost certainly bad news. I'll also provide some typical psycho-babble and say that the guilty party is quite possibly mentally ill and it's a shame that we don't have trained professionals in school that could recognize early warning signs, diagnose, and treat people who may someday pose a serious threat to society. Not necessarily looking to expand the thread in that direction, just my two cents.

I'm going to go work out now and thankfully not think about any horrible things in the article, which I didn't read.

What can I say, I'm a dick.

How......:no:

It bothered me how the article kept comparing the situation of this woman to prison. Surely, prisoners are treated with more dignity and respect.

I worry for those children, encouraged to participate in crimes so horrific.

It might have been referring to prisons generically. Not all prisons are civil.

Find out what makes them tick. Go deep.

read the begining of the article. just lost my apetite. and normally, I'm always hungry...

thats just horrible!

some people are just sick.

Sadly, I read the article and my personal feeling is they should all face the death penalty for this.

You know, I don't usually support capital punishment. I'm intensely uncomfortable with the idea of the State having the power to kill, in my name. This is especially true considering that high proportion of falsely convicted Death Row inmates in the US, if Amnesty International and The Innocence Project are to be believed.

However, in this case, I think getting a little old-school could be beneficial. Breaking On The Wheel sounds good, or maybe Lingqi. In public. Let the blood and bone and cauterized, detatched flesh spray the crowd. Maybe let the victim's family do the honors, with the option of forgiving and releasing the condemned beforehand, the way Muslim countries do it.

I think the death penalty would be poorly applied here. They should all be institutionalized so they can be treated and studied. What good would they be dead? How could we learn about their behaviour unless professionals can interact with them to know why they did such a thing?

If you want to prevent things like this from happening in the future, if you want to learn about the human mind and what makes us tick (and what makes us do terrible things), then why should they all be executed? There is a lot to learn here: group think, youth thought processes, adult/youth interactions, etc., etc. This is a case for our time. We can learn much about human psychology, and it's all right here.

The death penalty is just sweeping it under the carpet. Many believe suicide is the easy way out for an individual. Isn't the death penalty the easy way out for the state?

I am a social worker for capital punishment, one of the rare few. In my opinion the death penalty is the slow mind fuck of realizing your demise is coming and having to suffer the anxiety of that fateful day. In a way it is mind torture, which is surly less agonizing than what this poor woman was put through.

Maybe I'm the sick one, I don't know but I do know that I think those who show no remorse or regard for human life deserve exactly the same.

(bolded by me)

The only truly 100% effective way to prevent the guilty parties from harming other people is to end their existence. Period. Life in prison does not offer that same guarantee. Escapes happen. Clerical errors happen. Violence against inmates and prison staff happens.

The only thing worth keeping the guilty parties alive to study, is how they would react to having the same thing done to them.

I think we can all agree that an eye for an eye mentality certainly comes to mind here. I also believe it's not wrong of us to THINK about giving what was given in kind, but acting on that thought and not acting on it is what separates us from the animals who commit such heinous acts in the first place.

Personally, I think they should be publicly executed in quick and certain fashion. Death by firing squad for all to see, so everyone knows they paid for their crimes in full, and what can be expected for any further such crimes in the future.

BBs through the eyes. Bullets through the joints. Decapitation.

Studied by doctors? As far as I'm concerned, these creatures aren't human and don't deserve to be treated as such.

So you don't think profiling or other applications of information has any value? You don't see the value of psychological case studies for further understanding? What we know now of psychology, criminology, etc., was learned from study, not executions.

This sounds disingenuous. Is this an emotional response or do you think this would be a benefit? Would you carry out such a study? To be monstrous to the monster?

So one must become a monster to deal with a monster? How is that a benefit to society?

Humane. Dignified. Again, we must become the monster to deal with it?

This is a cop-out. They are human. The suggestion that they aren't is a Romantic ideal. I had hoped by now that we are done dealing with the hangover we've suffered from that period. Can we please move on to something productive? It's the 21st century already. (And doctors have come a long way since hacksaw amputations, leeches, and bloodletting.)

Upon reflection, I have concluded that there is some merit to studying the mind of an animal capable, and apparently willing, of such cruel treatment of another human being for no sane reason imaginable. So I propose you isolate them in a high security mental ward where they have no chance of escape and no interaction with anyone but the medical staff doing the studies, have your studies to your heart's content, THEN shoot them when you're done. They have lost their right to life in my book.

Who gets to decide that? Who makes the decision of which people are deserving of life and which ones aren't? These are human beings. We don't want to think of them as such, because we want to disassociate ourselves from the kind of creature that could do something like this, but like it or not it's what they are. Despicable, contemptible, evil, but human. What makes them more or less deserving of life? Liberty, no. They have proven better than I could have imagined possible that freedom of action is a burden they're not capable of shouldering and this poor woman has paid the price. But to take away their life?

I know they did horrible things. It makes me sick thinking about it. I'm not outraged though. I'm saddened by this, depressed. Both because it forces me to face the knowledge that this is what my fellow man, my species, my people are capable of, and also because of the reaction.

A woman died. She was subjected to horrible, unimaginable suffering. And while we're not the ones who inflicted this on her, the burden of it is ours. These people, there's something wrong with them. Normal, compassionate people don't do things like this. They're broken in some fundamental way. And we can drag them out back and shoot them like a pack of dogs gone feral, or we can acknowledge that we can learn something from this. We can learn how they're broken, learn to recognize it, maybe even learn to fix it. We can take real steps towards preventing this kind of thing from happening again. That's far more important to me than any lust for vengeance.

I was going to trot out the old 'where do we draw the line' argument regarding capital punishment, but frankly I just don't have it in me. Thinking about this is just too much for me. These are my thoughts, make of them what you will.

First of all, I think there are enough of sadistic murderers already incarcerated to keep the "studiers" occupied without adding the guilty parties here to the payroll. Second, what exactly do we know about psychology, criminology, etc, from hundreds of years of study, that benefits, Dorothy Dixon?

It would benefit the guilty parties by teaching them personal responsibility. And maybe they are completely unaware of the fact that torture is pianful. So what better way to learn than first hand experience.

Now I'll turn your question back on you. Would you be willing to carry out your proposed studies........in your home? Is it important enough to you to find the "answers" that you that you would be willing to expose yourself and your family to them and become there caretaker? Because a sanitized clinical study wouldn't be nearly thorough enough. One would actually have to be able to observe the interacting 24/7 much like Jane Goodall did with the animals she studied.

double post

Get back to me when humans have come a long way from barbarism, then we'll talk about being humane. Nothing has changed since thousands of years ago, so why should the punishment methods change?

Humans have and always will be animals. The only thing that separates us (hell, not even all of us) from people of old is a layer of societal mentality that represses our urge to dominate and kill. We just find the outlets in different methods, but the urge is there and always will be.

I would carry out the studies suggested if it were within my expertise to do so, but I don't know why you suggest doing so in my home. It would be of benefit to do so in an environment conducive to such a study.

A sanitized clinical study is what we have to work with; I say work with it. You say torture them. I simply disagree.

Humans are animals, yes. Humans are capable of suffering and causing suffering, yes. But we have changed over the years. If you think life now is like it was even in 1008 A.D., you are probably mistaken. Do you know what it's like living under a monarchy or imperial rule? Are you familiar with the caste system? Feudalism? You shouldn't undermine modern democracy and other social advances. Our genetic makeup might be relatively unchanged, but our social minds have made leaps and bounds. But this was not borne out of repression of basic instincts, it was based on our ability and desire to reason: a need fulfilled of the establishment and stabilization of wider societies. If things were as you say they are, our language would not have grown past the Old and Middle Languages, and we wouldn't understand one another for regional dialects. It would be a much more fragmented world.

While you might see the benefit of publicized drawing and quartering, many contemporary minds view that as unnecessarily and historically barbaric. Most would rather post-Freudian methods or modern incarceration practices.

I agree that a relative urge to dominate and kill remains within us, but I choose not to give up on the progress we have made in spite of it. The fact that we all have this capacity should encourage us to learn more about ourselves, which is why I take the stance I do.

I could not support the hanging of women or children - even for crimes as atrocious as this.

I believe that it should only be lawful to execute by capital punishment an adult male.

Yep, agree. They are animals. We cage animals to study them.

I still believe they should have the choice to donate their bodies for science.

[irony]You could always give the women testosterone therapy and simply wait for the children to come of age.

There's a solution to every problem.[/irony]

Well, maybe it sounds sexist or old fashioned, but its how I feel.

The State sponsored taking of a life is not something to be undertaken lightly. It is very serious.

recreating the disembowling scene in braveheart sounds to me like an appropriate punishment.

[irony]I know, I know....women and children are precious, and sperm is cheap.[/mygod,howdoyouturnthisthingoff?!]

Why focus solely on that?

They should be taken from the courtroom, "stripped naked and dragged through the city at the heels of a horse to the [Alton town square]. [They should be] hanged, drawn and quartered — strangled by hanging but released while still alive, emasculated[/castrated], eviscerated and [their] bowels burnt before them, beheaded, then cut into four parts [each]. [Their] preserved [heads should be] placed on a [pikes] atop [the Clark Bridge by the Mississipi]. It [should later be joined by the heads of everyone else guilty of such crimes in Illinois]. [Their] limbs [should be] displayed, separately, in [Chicago, Aurora, Rockford, and Naperville]."*

[/irony, dammit! /IRONY]

I happened to see the mugshots of the people in question.

Its pretty much what you would expect, sort of the typical cast you would expect out of one of those 'car broke down in the country' horror movies. Kinda 'Squidbillies' come to life.

[non-irony] You're hilarious! Bet you could get a job with The O'Reilly Factory. Also bet he wouldn't get the joke. [/non-irony]

Feel the same. Can't really relate at all. My mind immediately classifies the crimes as acts committed by alien species.

I believe that has, and always should be, left up to society as a whole. You know, that whole "we the people" sort of thing when it comes to deciding what is right for ALL of us who obey the generally accepted rules of being ALLOWED to thrive / survive, in a lawful manner, within this community.

Technically, yes. These .. "human beings" .. have also earned another classification that separates them from the rest of the sane, law-abiding human beings (you know, "normal people") who have to live with these kinds of lunatics in their midsts. We liberal minded folk call them "animals". When an "animal" in our society takes the life of another citizen in our community, we put them down. I'm not suggesting you torture these animals, that would be inhumane and lower our standards, I'm merely stating that I firmly believe in my heart that they should be executed .. immediately.

It has been suggested in this thread that there is a wealth of knowledge to be learned from these animals that could benefit our society's future. Alright, perform your studies, learn what you can in a reasonable amount of time, then kill them, and let the rest of society get on with their sane existence.

Rightfully so. Their very actions clearly demonstrate their differences between the acceptable norm of human behaviour and those of crazed animals who cannot abide by / reside within the accepted boundaries of the law of the land and refrain from inhumane practices on their fellow man.

Human, yes. Deserving of the right to survive amongst the rest of the human population after such heinous acts .. definitely not. They have already proven to what lengths they are willing to go in proving just how inhumane and cruel they can be to an innocent and defenseless, mentally challenged expectant mother. You want me, the general public, to accept anything less than their lives to be extinguished as punishment for their despicable, contemptible, evil acts? You want me to vote for their lives to be spared for the sake of human rights, the very same rights they have demonstrated no regard for? I vote no.

Reread this entire thread and the submitted link that states how they brutally tortured and unceremoniously killed an innocent woman and her unborn child. Not one innocent life, but technically two, taken without remorse or sane reason. I am somewhat surprised you needed this one clarified.

They have proven far more than just that to me, my friend. They have proven a high level of societal deficiency. Low moral integrity. Animalistic tendencies to the highest degree of inhumane proportions. They have proven that they apparently don't know right from wrong. They have proven that the death of an innocent woman and her unborn child is less important to them than their twisted, perverse desires to torture and humiliate her relentlessly.

You should be sickened by this, any decent human being would be, I should hope. I, personally, am outraged that more people aren't coming forward and crying out for their executions.

You are absolutely correct here. What was done to this woman is ... unthinkable. Inexcusable. Unforgivable. And yes, we are the ones left to speak for her, to see that her death is not dismissed, nor excused, nor forgiven. We have to mete out the punishment of those in our society who break the very rules we live by. Torture and murder being list toppers in my book. You're also right in that they are abnormal, broken on a fundamental level. These are not the type of people .. these animals .. that any of us want living in our midsts. That is why we have laws against such acts, and harsh punishment for committing such heinous crimes. The hope is that we never have to dole out a sentence of death for anyone who is willing to commit such wickedness, but we must when the need arises. That is our cross to bear in this and we must be vigilant in carrying out our task. We cannot allow such acts to go unpunished, and anything short of execution, in my book, is simply not punishment enough.

I'm not proposing that we, as a society, lower to the level of the accused in this matter. There is no sane reason why they cannot be executed in the most humane fashion possible, lest it offend your sensitivities and those like you. And I mean you no insult by saying that. It's just a simple matter of differing perspectives in this from where I stand. I believe they should be executed publicly, say by firing squad, so that the rest of society knows right off, this is what you get for torturing and murdering our innocent members of the community. I think that would be far more productive in hindering the spread of the type of behaviour in our society, than holding the animal's hand while we stuff them full of drugs or gases to make them take their eternal dirt nap in a most peaceful nature. Personally, I'd rather they shit themselves in fear at the sound of the bullet being fired at their lunatic skulls, knowing with distinct finality that this is what their evil led them to, but that's just me.

I believe in cases like this one, where there is no "reasonable doubt" that the accused are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, most certainly quite guilty, their execution should be public, it should be today, if not sooner, and it should be referred to as a demonstration of our resolve to put an end to this kind of atrocity in our society. This way, the victim's loved ones do not have to suffer the years upon years of waiting for justice to finally be served, wondering if there is going to be some reprieve for the monster who took their baby away from them, some loophole that gets him released on a legal blunder (technicality), or that the criminal might escape and seek further retribution on his victim's family .. you know .. just for sick, twisted spite and all.

Now I know there are those cases where the "accused" is actually quite innocent and erroneously charged, and I believe there should be extenuating circumstances and procedures to separate those cases from the ones where there is more than enough solid proof of guilt to proceed right to execution, but I'll save that passionate rant for the proper thread.


In closing I will say, you seem like a decent enough person to me. You're in a state of shock and/or dismay over this situation and I honestly feel compassion and remorse for how this has made you think and feel. But this is the society we live in, and we're in this kind of position because monsters like these stated here are not more severely punished for their heinous crimes to begin with. If we executed murderers expediently, and without all the red tape of second guessing our decisions to execute them in the first place, more of these lunatics might get the impression we mean business when we say "thou shalt not kill".

Kahn, what is the difference between one monster, three monsters, or a whole society of monsters? Is it because we make our executions ceremonies? We parade the damned around from court to court and until the final moment when they get their meal.

I cannot recall the exact story but it is fitting here. An entire village (I recall 1000) must kill their lord and they each decide that each of them will take a bite out of him. No single bite was the cause of his death so no single person could have been blamed, and the emperor could not do anything to them all. In modern society we don't have to brush our teeth after the executions.

Yes they don't deserve the life they have... but now they can't live it freely. They should now be required to benefit society in every way they can.

I think you may be confusing the term monster here just a bit. The "monster" is the bad people who take life without justifiable cause or sane rationale, NOT the good people who must find some form of suitable punishment for said heinous crimes.

You propose to me some equally suitable form of punishment such as the current WIDELY accepted form (the death sentence) and I'll rethink my current stand on this atrocity. I can't personally think of anything more fitting. If, however, you wish to suggest that I stomach the notion that these brutal, lunatic MONSTERS be allowed to live out the rest of their natural born lives in captivity under any conditions that do not include the road that leads to their extermination (such as years and years of medical research to answer the question "why did you do it?"), I'm going to have a problem accepting it.

You see, these animals relentlessly tortured (for how long??) and killed an innocent woman and her child. This isn't some sad fairytale in a storybook, nor some dramatic scenario in a TV show or slasher movie. This really happened in our society. Now we must decide whether or not these people are going to be allowed to continue living in our society, in any capacity.

What's even scarier to think about is, if they are not executed within a reasonable measure of time, and instead given the opportunity to continue living, in confinement or otherwise, they will more than likely kill and or torture someone again. It's already been proven that this is their very nature, which we can all agree is extremely abnormal and quite unacceptable. Only this time, it will be a state or government paid medical staff member or prison guard, or maybe even some unsuspecting inmate. It happens all the time, and we know it does, and still we seem to have a problem with removing this cancerous breed of animal from our gene pool, and all because it makes us feel dirty in our deepest secret places.

I don't believe there is much benefit to our society, in this day and age, that can be gained by the life of an animal capable of doing the things done to this woman and her child. If they are allowed to live, they will live each waking moment striving for the opportunity to get free and continue living as they have thus far. Not bettering themselves or anyone else. Not atoning for their crimes. And certainly not making our society better for letting them live.

Violent people want and commit violent acts. Good people want and vote for violent people to be put to death. So the violent people have the will to actually do it while voters just sit back and pay others to do it.

Reading up on prison breakouts, the likelihood of them increases when one is in Belgium. Due to a failure of containment, we are going kill off the violent and sick, instead of improving the methods and structures for containment, correct?

Kahn... this is a dead horse. Am I really going to change your opinion? Are you really going to change mine?

Do you live on the same planet as me? :rolleyes: Are you familiar with the current prison system we have in place in the US? I mean, seriously. This country has countless unpleasant problems with its current prison facilities just filled to the gills with animalistic killers just waiting for the opportunity to kill again. This doesn't even broach the topic of escape, they're killing others within the prisons, and not just other prisoners, but staff members who risk their lives to keep those animals from getting out. And you want to keep putting more of these animals in those prisons still? All those animals who have been sentenced for heinous crimes against their fellow man, who have proven with their criminal acts to be unfit in our society? You want to continue letting them live? Are you serious? :confused:

Are you actually suggesting that we build bigger or better prisons to house, at OUR expense mind you, these same animals who have proven they are DESERVING of the death sentence bestowed upon them in the first place? I am perplexed at the notion that I, as a taxpayer, should pay to house a convicted murderous animal, who has done nothing but prove their unworthiness to be allowed to remain in our society, or be viewed as deserving the right to remain alive, for KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE .... and your argument against the death penalty is the state of the current prison system? :orly:

Uhhhhh ... :no: ... no, I don't see that happening man, but it's been an interesting debate just the same. :thumbsup:

And people wonder why there is so much rampant vigilantism in our society today. :rolleyes:

Maybe if we abolished the prison system completely and just executed without question, people would stop committing crimes. Well, they still wouldn't, but the rate would drop quite significantly. Wouldn't suit the "democratic" nature of this country though.

Yeah! Kill them all, let God sort them out.

Exactly! Sans the statement about god.

Ok, lets just kill them all then. I say we start with the shoplifters. Hell, we do this right and we can do it better then China and the Arabs.

"kill them all, God will know His own...."

I think that might be a bit extreme, not to mention it would probably cause full scale civil war...

I must be callous, I read the story without emotion..

Just another day in the US of A...

Of course. People wouldn't want their right to do crime with a chance of lenient punishment to be taken away.

I am being sarcastic, but think of how much money the country will be saving by eliminating the prison system. Hell, eliminating half the inmates (say, ones in Supermax prisons or the criminally insane) would save a shitton too.

I'd be happy if we just opened the doors and let out everyone whose sole crime was either buying, selling or growing pot. I'd bet you could pay for a huge chunk of universal health care with that move alone.

Indeed. I don't really understand why the US doesn't just legalize and tax it. Hell, they can sell their own and profit. Alcohol is legal, so are coffee and cigarettes. Adding another "social drug" to the pot (heh, pot) wouldn't hurt a bit.

Or just not spend it at all and stop taking it from the tax payers in the first place.

Dunno why the concept of not spending is so hard for people to grasp but then I look at the amount of credit card debt out there.

Maybe it's because my country wasn't founded on the phrase "we the people," but I still don't understand this. Are you suggesting that everybody in the nation get together and take a vote? Clearly the people are divided on issues just like this one.

That's a cop-out. My point was that these aren't animals (and please spare me the biology, it has no place here). These are human beings. You can call them every name, every epithet you can think of, but you can't just arbitrarily decide they're not human.

And again. Does it make it easier to cry for blood if you don't think of it as human blood? I don't understand that attitude at all.

This is not up for debate. Living amongst the rest of the population is not an option anyone is advocating. The disagreement stems from something much more basic, which is the right to survive at all. I cannot condone the taking of a human life. I will agree that in the most dire and immediate circumstances it may be necessary, but I do not agree that it is right. The circumstances here are neither dire nor immediate. The damage has been done. What is there to be gained by any further acts of murder?

I lack neither reading nor comprehension skills. I'm fully aware of the events that transpired as they've been related.

I ask you again; what is there to be gained from this? It certainly does their victim no good.

You're contradicting yourself. Wanting them to "shit themselves in fear," essentially wanting them to live the remainder of thier lives in fear and torment is not taking the same course of action? Do you really believe there's any deterrent for this kind of antisocial sociopathic behaviour?

I believe you misunderstand me. My issue with the death penalty does not stem from the reasonable doubt argument (although that certainly is a practical concern.) Once more for clarity, I cannot condone any course of action that leads to the taking of a human life. Regardless of what they've done, regardless of (to be perfectly crude) how fucked up they are. There is no justification for murder.

You're correct that this has dismayed me greatly, and that I initially was far more emotional about this than is the norm for me. I don't yet know why that is; it's a question I'll need to ask myself at another time. I am feeling calmer now and am thus better able to present my arguments on this matter, but my opinion has not changed. Killing these people doesn't show anyone that "we mean business." The death penalty is not a deterrent to sociopathic behaviour and stating that it is runs counter to our understanding of the psychology behind such behaviour. The idea of deterrence is a justification for the real intent of the death penalty, which is retribution. It is my opinion that this is not a justifiable reason to take a life, particularly when there are much more productive ends for such individuals.

I look at someone who's capable of these sorts of crimes and I see another human being. This woman who was supposedly the ringleader started out the same way you and I did. She had a mother and a father, presumably a family and a childhood home. The question that I'm forced to ask is where did she go wrong that you or I didn't? What made her into what she is? If we can answer that, we may be able to prevent others from following in her footsteps. Killing her, while satisfying on a personal level, ultimately does no good for anyone.

I don't have any credit card debt. But they keep upping my credit limit?

Would still rather fund health care then a lot of the things we're currently borrowing money to fund.

Why not? If you believe that killing a man for a crime is the solution, why do you not believe in killing a woman for the same crime?

I won't call for them to be executed, because to me the death penalty is just state sponsored murder, but I do hope they are locked away forever.

Bingo!

Murder is murder no matter how you lay it out.

Ever heard the phrase, "Two wrongs do not make a right."?

I'm sure your mom gave you that one a few times.

As an aside, an unborn FETUS is not a person. They killed one person. Calling it an "unborn child" is like calling it an "unbuilt car." It's a bunch of fucking parts. Until it's assembled, it's not a car, is it?

Thanks for avoiding this error in the future.

JinnKai

This is another fun issue. As far as I am concerned life is a sexually transmitted disease. I still know that the product of that disease will most likely be a baby.

Without a point: You don't beat on anyone, period (unless they really deserve it, like fucks that try to have sex with unconscious women). This goes doubly for children and pregnant women in my book.

Let me begin this response by stating that I am in no way intending to insult you or slight your views in any offensive manner. We have a very interesting topic being debated, one I'm rather enjoying being party to, and one I will continue to debate until I no longer have the energy to speak or the voice to be heard.

I think it needs to be strongly reiterated that this crime did occur in the US, so it must be dealt with according to the laws of that nation, which have been voted upon and enforced by society as a whole or in some part, quite literally, for centuries. Your inability to understand this concept, or the reasons behind the voted upon laws clearly stems from an entirely different society with their own apparently very different views towards, at the very least, this particular topic at hand.

I agree that there is a struggle in our society with the notion that killing killers is a justifiable response to the atrocity mentioned herein. This is why we have courts with a group of the accused's peers gathered as a whole to decide the penalty for such a crime as a group intended to represent the voice of the people of the community. This is also why we have elected officials who represent the society as a whole with their views on all facets of the legal community to establish what is and what is not acceptable behaviour as a guideline for the entire community to adhere to.

I have to concede your point here. Yes, they are indeed human, and yes my labeling them as an animal or lunatic is a basic emotional response to the atrocity they have committed. This serves as two purposes, however. One, it clearly demonstrates my disdain for their ilk and the evil they bestow in general. Two, it helps to differentiate their kind of "human" from the rest of the gene pool who, at the very least, are appalled by the actions this type of "human" is obviously capable of and willing to do.

Make no mistake about this. I have no reservations about "crying for blood" in this situation. I do not need to dehumanize a murderer to consider him unfit to live. We have rules that we must, as a society, live by. The most important, in my book is, simply put, not torturing or killing another human being. This rule, like any other rule should and does have, it has a penalty attached to it. I believe that if you take the life of a member of the community, your life becomes forfeit by definition of the rule.

This "human" member of our society broke this rule in a most inhumane and unthinkable way. I feel the penalty should not be swayed from and should be enforced to the fullest extent that the law will allow. I realise some states have voted against the death penalty and I'm willing to accept their right to do so. I'm glad to live in a state that enforces the death penalty for convicted murderers who have proven, beyond doubt, they are unfit to remain a part of society as a whole and simply serve no good purpose to the community in any part.

It should also be noted, for a state to enforce the death penalty, there are certain criteria the crime committed must meet in determining the death sentence as a valid penalty for "murder". I won't list them here as they are extensive and derail the topic at hand, but you should understand that this is not something committed to emotionally or without serious consideration and debate. It is the law of the land in many states, and as such, SHOULD be enforced. Please know there are extensive checks and balances utilized in determining this form of punishment and it is not administered lightly.

The fact that I fully support this concept is purely a personal preference and should be judged separately from the matter at hand.

You are correct here. I misspoke when I said something to the effect of "living amongst the rest of the community" or some such. In my defense, it was very late here for me and I was getting a bit lethargic from lack of sleep.

What I MEANT to say was .. I believe they no longer have the right to live .. period. Now I don't mean that to sound so basic and generalized as saying "if you commit murder, you should be put to death". I realise there are circumstances to every crime, including acts of brutality that involve the taking of another human life. I believe that if you kill someone in self defense, there should be some reprieve from the death sentence, as the act of murder in this instance was of a human instinct to survive. I also believe that murder committed in the heat of passion or extreme emotional duress, such as finding a lover cheating and you just snap. I feel there should be SOME kind of leniency here, but not much. There are other example I could list, but I believe you begin to see my point here.

That being said, if you brutally torture someone INNOCENT, and then kill them, or perform acts that summarily result in their death, for no sane justifiably understandable motive other than the pure bliss one such as this breed of "human" seems to get from killing, you have nothing to offer me or my society that I care to extract from you. Your life is forfeit and I'll gladly be the one to pull the trigger or push the plunger that ends your sick, miserable existence.

You must pardon me on this one, as I was attempting to be facetious in the hope of keeping this debate as light and unoffensive as possible. My attempt at humor was not only ill-received, but misplaced as there is no place for humor in this discussion.

In a word ... justice. I realise the victim in this will never see another day and will never know that justice is or is not served in this matter on her behalf. I also believe there aren't any family members who really care enough about the victim to benefit from the outcome of this matter either, and if there are, then I've missed their mention thus far. However, I still remain, as do the rest of my community, many of which who are equally outraged by the heinous crime committed and seek some resolution to this unforgivable act. You may ask me yet again "but why the death sentence" and I can simply reply "because that is the penalty for such a sick and evil crime".

I think you may have misunderstood me here. I don't care how humane a person who is capable of the sick, evil, inhumane act of torture and murder of another human being is treated .. on a personal level. Personally, I'd like to wreak equally unthinkable wicked and evil acts upon the "human" who did this to that poor woman, but I realise in my heart that this would simply put me on their level and make me every bit the monster they are. It is an emotional response that bespeaks my outrage and contempt for the sick bastards who did this and, upon reflection, an unreasonable response.

I also know in my heart that I am better than the "humans" charged with this crime, because I know the right and wrong of this act and am able to restrain myself from committing such heinous acts. Thusly, I have separated myself from their kind of "animal", being an animal myself, but demonstrating I am a superior breed of animal by comparison for demonstrating humane compassion and emotional restraint.

Summarily, I concede that their execution should be as humane and respectful and humanly possible .. we are going to have to live with our actions after all .. but, should be enforced as expediently and decisively as the law will allow.

There are people .. animals .. evil criminals who reside on "death row". Convicted of heinous crimes against humanity and sentenced to death for said acts, rightfully so I believe. These "animals" live far better than some impoverished people guilty of no crime, save being poor. We pay to house these "animals" and provide them with the most posh of environments (considering they're imprisoned and sentenced to death) and amenities most hard working families struggle to attain with sweat and tears, giving them the most humane end to their miserable existence possible. So we are capable of being humane. I think we need to be more diligent in being strict about enforcing the sentence, as we are about being humane to the condemned.

Yes. At least on some level and to some degree, I do. If you stop dragging your feet (society in general, not you specifically) about enforcing the death penalty and prove to convicted murderers that they WILL be put to death for committing so heinous a crime, that EVENTUALLY the message will sink in .. to at least some of these sick bastards, and some is still better than none.

As it is right now, someone commits murder, for whatever motive or rationale, and they know they MIGHT be sentenced to death, depending on if their specific crime fits all the necessary criteria to grant the death penalty, and at worst, may have to be incarcerated for the rest of their natural born lives. Many of these sick individuals don't care about being put in the prison system, because they know they can still survive .. and in many cases, survive perhaps even better than they did out of prison, or at least within an acceptably reasonable manner. Knowing this, they don't care to suffer the punishment for murder, because the payment of their own execution is not enforced enough to scare them away from killing others.

I can. I believe I can detach myself just enough from the emotional attachments I have to the very concept of killing another human being to realise there must be some equally appalling penalty for such an act. I believe in the notion "an eye for an eye" wholeheartedly. I believe if you commit an act against your fellow man, that you should pay an equal price for your act. If you steal something, you should have something taken away from you. If the "something" you stole was the life of another human being, I believe your life should be the price you pay.

I have to strongly disagree with you here. As I said earlier, if you actually execute the sick "animals" who commit these sorts of heinous crimes in an expedient fashion .. EVENTUALLY .. the message "we really do mean business" will become all too clear to the rest of the sick animals in society not yet guilty of such acts, but potentially capable of them, and most certainly to those being executed, as it will most likely be the very last thought that should cross their sick, twisted mind.

You can label the result of enforcing the death penalty as retribution or anything else you like, it matters not to me, I won't discuss the semantics of it here. The fact remains it is a necessary evil that gives us a very strong reply to the act of murdering another member of our community.

As for the "much more productive ends for such individuals" that you mentioned, I have no idea what could possibly be equally punishing to the convicted killer while still being productive to our society in any fashion. This just feels like some half-hearted suggestion made by a less than fully committed resolve. If you cannot condone or rationalize "any course of action that leads to the taking of a human life", then I respectfully suggest you to step aside and leave this matter to those who can, and will, because from where I sit, you offer me no reasonably acceptable solution to changing my current thinking.

By definition, a sociopath is a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. They can either know right from wrong, and simply choose to do wrong regardless, or not know right from wrong and simply do wrong out of ignorance or defect. For me personally, there should be no shades of gray here. You display antisocial tendencies and commit immoral acts .. FOR WHATEVER REASON .. you should still be held accountable for your actions.

I sympathize with you here and am equally saddened to think on how terrible this person's life must have been to compel her to display such tendencies and commit such acts. It sickens me, quite literally, to know that there really are people out there like this, just outside my door perhaps, or around the corner, just waiting to explode like the ticking bomb they literally are. Thinking of the hell they must have had to endure which will eventually lead them to actually committing such brutal acts of violence and escalating them to transform into unthinkably evil monsters is incredibly disturbing, to say the least. I literally pity them, I do. The saddest reality of all is, we may never be able to answer the question of "how or why" could someone do such things.

That being said, in all sincerity, does not excuse the heinous crimes committed against the victim in this story and should be dealt with accordingly. There are countless accounts of abuse victims who have grown to lead absolutely normal, non-abusive lives without so much as raising a finger to their fellow man. Being abused, traumatized, mistreated, and so on and so forth, does not justify violating the most sacred rule in the book .. "thou shalt not kill". I think we can and do agree that this is a very good rule, and should never be violated in any normal circumstance. The act of murder in this instance was certainly not normal and should be dealt with by committed resolve and a certain equally fair response.

This notion is absolutely absurd on many levels and I'm really not interested in debating semantics with such a closed mind. However, there is one point I felt compelled to mention that you clearly have missed. An unbuilt car will never become a human being .. and .. quite literally .. is an object you can stop making at any point. An unborn FETUS .. whether an actual human being or not .. YET .. WILL eventually become a human being whether you will it or not, unless of course you choose to abort the fetus .. which in its own right belongs in an entirely separate thread, NOT this particular discussion.

To make this comparison is as asinine and ridiculous as comparing apples to oranges in a debate about the death penalty and it's ramifications on society as a whole. Please refrain from making random generalized and opinionated comments such as this that do nothing FOR the conversation and take FROM it the appreciation many others may have for reading here.

Kahn,

Having read your reply, I would say that we have reached a fundamental difference of opinion. I am not comfortable with the taking of another human life for any reason, whereas it seems that you are very much so. Further, I believe that there's more to be gained from allowing these people to live (particularly the children, who may not be beyond rehabilitation) whereas you do not. I see no need to reply in detail, as doing so would ultimately just result in circular arguments.

My opinion has been presented as clearly as I can manage. I have nothing further to add.

I respect your position in this topic and your viewpoints are noted and worthy of serious consideration. I am most grateful that you have chosen not to disrespect my views as well, that would have just been rude and I feel you have been anything but. Hopefully, nothing I have said here has insulted your feelings or given you cause to view me offensive or rude.

A passing thought occurred to me, and perhaps this may be where my ability to execute more easily than you stems from. What if the victim in this situation was someone you know .. or worse, someone you love .. would that have any impact on your current thought process in determining the punishment for said crime?

Perhaps this is an unfair question to ask, as you can't possibly know the answer to it unless you are faced with that specific situation. It is however, part of the thought process I experience when coming to the conclusions I have thus far. I view all human life sacred and wonderful, and yet I can condemn the life of a convicted killer regardless of this belief. Confusing, isn't it?

At the very least, this conversation / debate has been an interesting way to spend my day and I thank you for that.

As someone who feels the same as Martian, although I can't truly say what my response would be because I have never lost anyone close to me through anything but natural causes, here is my 2 cents.

Would I want the individual responsible to be punished? Yes of course. Would I wish them nothing but misery for the rest of their natural life? Again yes I would. Would I wish them to be executed for their crimes? No, I refuse to wish that anyone be murdered. Even by the state.

Maybe I just eat too much red meat or watch too much violence on TV, and perhaps I'm no better than the "animal" I say should be put to death for such a violent crime .. who am I to say?

What I do know for a certainty is that people capable of this type of act against their fellow man cannot be changed. They may be altered in some sense of the word, and may even be coerced into convincing others that they'll never do it again, but someone capable of such brutality cannot be reprogrammed to never do it again .... well .... not without something like a lobotomy. :expressionless:

I am admittedly biased on this point as my wife is nearly 25 weeks pregnant right now, but personally I strongly disagree with that sentiment - especially after seeing a squirming stubborn child refuse to show what sex it is during an ultrasound. Always have but that is definitely a topic for another thread.

on the subject of the this thread, I read the first few paragraphs a few days back and could not continue. I have no kind thoughts or feelings for these people .
One of my thoughts about the whole topic was that many more disturbing things are public (and how quickly the news breaks) these days with the 24/7 'instant news' culture we live in. These kind of events have always happened, and there are far too many of these vile f**ktards out there that will do it again.
edit: and I am jaded for the most part, and find any of the 'faces of death' interesting videos to watch.

Reading comments in this and other similar threads have gotten me thinking. More than half the people here are either upset by, disturbed by or cannot continue reading these kinds of articles. I, on the other hand, read it without any sort of emotion short of an occasion "damn". Now, is that me being desensitized by pop culture and movies or is it just the way I perceive things? Same with the puppy video. No strong reaction one way or another aside from an audible comment of "poor animal" which did not carry any emotional follow-up on my part.

Hmmm, just typing out loud.

Carry on.

I think it just means that you're not in denial about our capability to do something like what they've done. Not to say you would do it yourself, just that you are capable of doing it.

Of course, some folks may deny it, but then looking at the type of punishments half you would deal out to them if you had your way makes me think otherwise.

I guess that's a good point and rings true in the way I see this world.

This was one of the first stories (if not the first) that I can recall where I did not finish reading it. Perhaps it has more of a personal sentiment for me because I have worked with the developmentally delayed for the past five or six years, and the fact that my wife is pregnant with yet another blessing.

I personally find it interesting to read about the various creative methods of torture used in the Russian Gulag, by Vlad the Impaler, Nero, and other places/people historically (and have used some that information as a base for the darker areas of my ongoing sci-fi writing), but this is in an entirely different vein for me. :shakehead:
yet another sad example of the total depravity of man and just how base any of our behaviour can be.