WTF is wrong with this country today?
 

Maybe, I'm naive. I used to believe that people were pretty much the same today as they were 100 years ago, just more people which means you'd see more crazies, more deviant behavior and so on. Add that to 24 hour news stations that make people infamous in a mater of minutes... ok sometimes it takes hours for police to release names or the press to get them.

But anymore, I'm not sure. One of he downfalls to the Roman Empire was insanity, the people of Rome for many reasons just started going insane. Is that what is happening to our country today, we are just becoming a nation of narcissists, megalomaniacs, greedy, self serving, easily led by the media peoples?

I look around:

Sports... the NBA has refs on the take, the NFL has coaches taping games illegally (not civil but by NFL laws), the MLB has steroids, the NCAA has fucked up championships, officials gambling and more and more universities screwing the students by having their teams make millions yet it never seems to help keep tuitions down, rather they keep increasing he tuitions. (Oh yeah, the sports are separate, and that money goes into the scholarships and so on.... I find that hard to believe someone in these schools is making a mint and yet, tuitions and housing keep skyrocketing.)

Music and radio.... let's see the top 10 grossing concerts last year were.... TOP CONCERTS
1. Hannah Montana
2. The Police... 80's music
3. Céline Dion... 80's and 90's superstar, more of a Vegas act now
4. Kenny Chesney... the only one on the list to have truly recorded anything "new" in the last 3 years
5. Van Halen.... 80's super band
6. Bruce Springsteen.... been around forever hasn't done anthing good in 15-20 years
7. Jimmy Buffett..... parrotheads... been around since the 70's
8. Bon Jovi...... 80's superband
9. Soul2Soul: Faith Hill & Tim McGraw.... still what late 30's
10. Dave Matthews Band.... has an immense following but again been around for quite awhile

Anyone know where any of today's original stars other than Kenny Chesney ranked? I didn't think so, thought I'd ask.

So new music is pretty much dead in great part to FM radio stations promoting garbage. The music company monopolies manufacture singers for 1 or 2 alums and then they disappear.... (oh yeah, artist vs. record company problems... IE he artist wants paid and the monoplistic company says no... so the band breaks up, maybe has a small following left and tries to sell music on their websites.

So you listen to AM... ok talk radio maybe ok.... except it has all become primarily right winged political talk... even fricking sports talk shows are political and again more focussed on all the scandals plagueing the respective sports.

All this IMHO, is due to the monopoly of Clear Channel, CBS and a couple others owning just about every radio station and finding it cheaper to just syndicate all the programs than have live talent on the air in the city the station is in.

So let's look at television.... mmmm Reality TV.... need I say more. Ok when was the last truly original show on? And again pretty much a TimeWarner, CBS/Viacom, NBC/Universal/Vivendi, Fox/NewsCorp, Disney monopoly with maybe some a couple others owning a channel or 2.

Newspapers, magazines, books...basically publishing itself is owned by a monoploy of Gannet, NewsCorp, Thompson, Disney, TimeWarner.... and they will go with what sells which means very few new writers are discovered and pushed, when was the last great author discovered? Rowlings????? give me a break. But ok who else?

In Nov. we will have 2 candidates that scare the living fuck out of me. Obama/Clinton vs. McCain is not the best selection we could have come up with people..... BUT it is the selection the media wished for. The one they have been building up for the past year or 2. None f them are willing to do anything about the illegal alien problem.... bring in the cheap labor guys.

Speaking of cheap labor, we have companies moving overseas for cheaper labor.... so we can afford the cheaper products.... but the problem here is in the process those companies throw out decent waged employees to make far less money, so they can only afford the imported cheaper labor made goods, so that more companies have to move overseas so that they lay off more good waged people who can only afford..... it's a vicious downward spiral..... WAKE UP.

I won't even discuss how this affects the foreclosures, ok (this is an example... (actually someone I know, a good friend), has not happened to my wife and I yet)... I make $20/hour, my wife makes $17 and we buy a decent house. We can afford the payments easily and we are happy in our house and have a nice disposable income ... then my company lays me off and I have to find a job that pays me $7.50, part time because the company doesn't want to pay benefits but maybe if we tighten up.... then my wife's company closes her office down claiming lack of business (downsizing).... she has to find a job.... she is unemployed for awhile and we fall behind but she finally gets a job... at a temp service making $8.50 an hour, hers is full time but no benefits. So our happy house that was making roughly $76,000 a year now makes roughly.... $30,000....we're fucked. No disposable income, the cheapest generic products out there, sell the cars get rid of the payments and buy cheap used cars, then, if we don't have any major problems (a car/washer/dryer/fridge breakdown, no major health issues, etc.) we maybe able to hold onto the house and believe it will get better. Yeah, right.... then the Fed hikes the rate, our ARM goes up and we an no longer afford our mortgage..... Foreclosure. We look around and we can't even afford a decent apartment anymore because our credit has just become shit.

But then the right winged talk show hosts and the brainwashed Neocons want everyone to believe the above was the family that bought the house's fault not big business or the greed our society has spawned.

Our healthcare is in shambles. We promote it as the best in the world.... (if you have insurance... and if you have an emergency or for some reason you have to go "out of network", then you better have REAL good insurance or a lot of money....

So what is good out there left in our country? The internet and even that Congress and big business want to control. Hell, Yahoo is preparing to be bought out by either Microsoft or NewsCorp.... then Google will be next, then anything else original. Eventually it won't matter what's out there if they don't have the money to advertise the site to get the hits to bring in some advertising to stay running... they're as good as done anyway.

I Love my country, I love he United States, I wore the uniform for her. I just wanted a chance to have a better life than that which my parents had..... I don't see that chance out there and I sure as hell don't see a better future for my child.

The USSR and China never had to fire 1 shot to destroy this country, our own insanity, greed, self righteous, over indulging, gluttonous egos did it to ourselves.

I am just as guilty as everyone else, because 20 years ago when we saw it taking shape and people predicted it..... I was one who ignored and laughed at them. Now, they are in Europe or Australia living a life that our country today can only remember how great it was and dream that it may someday get back there.......

I think this is just a sign that you are getting old and starting to sound like your parents or your grandparents. In other words, I am sure, with little difficulty,you could go find a newspaper column written in the 60s, written by someone over 40, that says much in the same about the world then... and how it was going to hell in a handbasket.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

A note on music... there is a ton of new music out there. In fact there is probably more than ever before. The great leveling force of computers and the Internet has allowed more people to create more music and distribute it to more people than ever before. In fact, I would argue that the do-it-yourself punk attitude is more alive than ever before (only it's being expressed in a multitude of musical forms).

The big difference is that it is not in the hands of corporate music. It is inherently independent and therefore not being heard via mainstream sources such as FM radio. There are a ton of new musicians out on tour as well. They just aren't playing giant venues and charging the kind of fees that will put you on the top ten list.

The playing field is leveling and so are the audiences. Tune into my favourite web radio station, CBC Radio 3 and you will hear a plethora of new bands (from multiple genres) that are touring, creating exciting new music and speaking to an audience that is not a part of what was traditionally called, Mainstream.

As for television... there has *always* been drek on TV. Stop looking at drek and start watching better TV. There has been a renaissance of drama over the past 10 years with programming being produced that is reaching new levels of importance and relevance. I can show you any era and point our that (most likely) 75% of what was being made was crap.

As for "outsourcing", I suggest you get used to it. Corporations are not simply national institutions any long. They are not beholden to anyone but their shareholders. Labour and skills are cheaper abroad. The market will not tolerate needless expense. That said, you should also understand that those jobs have done more good, in terms of developing nations that could otherwise be getting ready to go to war with each other or worse.

One could argue that the main reason India and Pakistan did not go into nuclear war back in the 90s is because of the risk that that war would have meant the loss of India's status as America's back office. If India had gone to war it would have meant a disruption in the services they offer, via the Internet, to hundreds of US business, worth billions of dollars. That business would have gone elsewhere (China, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.) and would not have come back. India pulled back.

I would suggest that China and Taiwan will not go to war for much in the same reason. They are both heavily invested in being part of the supply lines to the US and the West. They cannot break that supply chain without losing out in a huge way.

These same forces are working to bring many of the nations of Asia, that were nothing more than third world dictatorships, into the second and first world. This is just the sort of economic and social change that people point to when they argue that invading a place like Iraq is not the answer... investment is...

I can't help but feel that the US is going through a change. A very important change. I feel, however, that it will come out the other side stronger and leaner... and perhaps very different but also a lot smarter and a much better International partner to all.

Before I try to answer your question, I will look at the good. Everything dies and all empires fall. That is the way of life. But whatever survives is stronger. Mass culture is dead, but the democratization of culture has taken its place. Art and culture do not die with mass production. You just have to dig a little deeper to find it. I think most of the best music, TV, and movies ever made have been in the last 10 years, but most Americans haven't heard of half of it.

Now the executive summary of my answer, in convenient bulleted list form.

• Overextended military fighting in places most people can't find on a map. (didn't that ultimately destroy the Roman Empire?) Our military budget is roughly equal to that of the entire rest of the world combined, and is now largely financed through deficit spending.
• Increasingly undemocratic and poor leadership (also see Roman Empire), which now seems to serve not people but corporations
• Debt—personally and nationally, we just can't control our spending. We want it all (including the weapons) and we're willing to sell our future to get it.
• Globalization—now you have to compete with some guy in India for a job, and we've exported the means of production. MBAs, bankers, and lawyers do not actually produce anything, they just coerce other people into producing what they want. (is that the definition of power or what?) Not that I'm opposed to globalization in principle, but this is just a natural result of the change. Basically, it's a two-way street and we have certainly had the advantage until recently.
• Legal system—this is the most litigious society on earth, usually for the purpose of making money not actually protecting the rights of individuals or promoting innovation
• War on Iraq—No explanation necessary
• War on Terror—Not that we shouldn't try to prevent terrorism, but we're going way overboard with the fearmongering, trampling international law and civil rights while mostly serving government contractors rather than actually stopping terrorists.
• War on Drugs—let's spend hundreds of billions of dollars fighting something most people who want to do are still doing anyway and destroy civil rights in the process. I can't think of a better way to preserve individual rights in a purportedly open democratic society.
• The prison-industrial complex—We have the highest prison population rate of any country. Largely due to the War on Drugs, the basic goal here is to put people we don't like in prison for the longest time possible, but it does nothing to rehabilitate prisoners into productive members of society.
• Religious idiots, who, among other indecencies, obstruct such basic knowledge as science and sexuality
• Loss of spirituality—The big organized religions are anachronisms or plain nuts, the new ones are too newage-hippy or outright illegal (see War on Drugs) for most people, where does the average rational person turn for this need? Money is the new religion but it doesn't serve the same ends.

There is still hope. We could end most of that today with rational thinking. Not that I'm very confident in that happening, but we'll either figure it out or continue to wallow in the bad results.

I agree with this a lot. But, that being said, if words of this type had caused enough people to pause, reflect, and eventually, rebel, then maybe we wouldn't be saying them again today.

I won't bother to speak on the OP (mostly due to it being way too early for me...) but I will say that I've been feeling as if it "can't last" for much longer. Something is bound to give, and I won't be surprised that if in my lifetime, something major will happen to this country.....

I think missed the core of the point I was trying to make and it wasn't that people haven't paused and don't rebel it's that they did. The issue is that older people (heck most people) have issues with change. Change is often seen in light of an imagined, "good old days" where things were "better".

Nostalgia is a bitter mistress. It can soothe you with fond memories but if you hold it too close it can also make you feel old and out of touch.

i think the questions in the op should be split apart: i'll only talk about the culture industry:

i dont think there is any diminuition in the production of new and interesting work in any of the arts.
if you think that's true, it follows from the fact that you are probably looking in the wrong place.
if you want innovative and exciting new work, chances are it's all around you.
turn off classic rawk radio and explore what is happening, what folk are doing. if you dont like what you find, do it yourself.


in music in particular, you'd never know anything about 99/100 of what is new and innovative because--well---where would you hear it?


commercial radio is bullshit and has been bullshit for years.
this is not because it's commercial--it's because, well, its mediocre. risk-free, toothless, repetition entertainment designed to keep you vaguely interested until the advertising comes on.
nothing else.
the radio wasteland is such a shame, it is so suffocating and monotonous: i dont know why folk dont just say fuck you to the lot of it and, say, start lots of low-powered stations. start a little revolution. look at prometheus project's website. they've been after clear channel and the monopoly of the beige that is american radio for a long time:

http://www.prometheusradio.org/

you cant rely on purveyors of advertising to shape your horizons. so make your own. it's easy and its cheap. or start a netradio outlet. it's easier and its cheaper. or learn an instrument and start a band that plays what you like.

but fucking do something: find out what's actually happening around you---the problem is not that there isn't a pile of new work--its that you dont know where it is--so find it.

---maybe there are these tiny informal venues around where you can hear new stuff: check them out.
---organize house concerts if nothing appeals. why not? it's easy. people will come out.
you'll hear something you dont know about. i
t's win=win.

look around. listen around. do something. if you let the commercial wasteland define your tastes, the joke, comrade, is on you.

but perhaps what the real problem with clear channel et al is that they do not feed you what you want to be fed--the problem underneath that is not being fed things, being told what you want--the problem is that you'd rather be fed something else.

that is different...
if that is your issue, i really dont care about it.

I can't really comment on how things used to be, because the halcyon days of the 90's aren't really all that long ago- and i would have a very difficult time claiming with a straight face to miss an era where vanilla ice was a cultural icon.

That being said, things are always changing, and i generally prescribe to the "same shit, different day" policy of dismissiveness. Music has always sucked in its own peculiar way; athletes have always been over-appreciated relative to the actual value of their contributions to society, and a certain portion of them will always cheat; politicians have always been politicians; business has generally always come down firmly on the side of profits when questions of ethics and morality come into play; ninjas have always been awesome; etc.

Spongebob Squarepants.

Pan, the answer you seek is summed up in this simple phrase

'money is the root of all evil'

Those that have alot, want more.
Those that have little, need more.
They will eventually do what they need to do to get money, no matter what it may entail.
If they cannot get what they need by honest means, they will resort to dishonest means, even violent means.
If violent means can't get them money, they will resort to violence against those they feel denied them.

That is what is wrong with the world today. It's not even a rightwing/leftwing issue. Those in power, right or left, have one single thing in common and that is elevating themselves above the little guy, that would be you and I.

I'll pick a few of the topics in the OP since you've got a lot in there.

TV. there's lots of GOOD TV out there. My Tivo shelters me from alot of the crap, becuase like a good responsible person, I look for what's "good" to me, and I watch only that. Now, Skogafoss on the other hand, she's got a broader base of interest in TV. So she sometimes watches things I'm not interested in.

Drama, the big 4 ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX each have some good offerings, yes there's the CSI franchise, the Law & Order franchise, but 24, Alias, Lost, Boston Legal, Grey's Anatomy, Desperate Houswives, Prison Break. Fox has locked in animation offerings with Simpsons (19th Season), King of the Hill (12th Season), Family Guy (7th season), American Dad (4th Season). Comedy, it is always a hit or miss. Everyong is looking for the next Seinfeld, Friends, Cheers, Everybody Loves Raymond. And slowly and quietly they are building their audiences, Two and a Half Men (4th Season), How I Met Your Mother (3rd Season), According to Jim (6th Season)

Game shows are making a resurgence into prime time again, Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, Power of 10, Deal or No Deal, Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader, while the format is "reality" the genre is still game show, American Idol, Dancing With the Stars, So You Think You Can Dance, Survivor, Big Brother, Last Comic Standing.

Children's programming, Nickolodeon, Cartoon Network, Boomerang, Disney Channel, all give kids 24 hour tv choices. Cartooons used to be relegated to the mornings, afternoons, and Saturday morning (all of which programming were designed create a demographic channel to sell advertisements Saatchi and Saathi lead the way on that.)

The envelope is pushed because of new cable offerings like The Sopranos, The Wire, Dexter, Sex and the City.

But now, you don't like any of the NEW offerings? Buy DVDs and watch what you want to watch when you want to watch it. Whole series is available for consumption from WKRP in Cincinatti to the last season Lost.

20 years ago, you'd not even think of these choices and freedom.

The 10 top grossing concerts, that's a misnomer since the person with the disposable money is what is fueling these concerts. Is today's teen going who will pay a face value $200 ticket like they would for The Police? Tickets to see Kanye West/Rhianna are $59 - $109. People pay absurds amounts of money to see Celine Dion, Cher, Bette Midler.

But again, depending on where you live, there are many other choices and alternatives. Many smaller venues are available to see acts in small venues. Yes, we've lost some originals like Tonic and CBGB's here in NYC, but there are still many places to catch acts.

Publishing, the internet leveled the playing field to finding new talent. "Rowling, give me a break?" She's made more than $1B, and that's just HER share, Scholastic and Warner Bros have made alot off her back. Focusing on new column talent, you've got the Motley Fools, Michelle Malik, Huffington, Coulter, these people all are relatively new to the scene.

Radio? Old distribution system. Podcasts are delivering some incredible amounts of diversity. Streaming Radio, also delivering incredible amounts of diversity.

Your credit being shit is your problem. Not mine. Your ARM is your problem, not mine. I didn't tell you to love above your means. First and foremost, having an ARM is just stupid. I have a mortgage on an investment property that I've been hemming and hawing on refinancing. I signed up for a fixed/ARM and I've let it stay as an ARM for the past 3 years. I should have refinanced earlier but that's MY fault not anyone elses. This place happens to be my safety net. When I couldn't afford to buy something in NYC, I bought something in the market I could afford, Las Vegas. I even made sure that if everything went to shit I could still work at a minimum wage job and still make ends meet with food, shelter, and transportation. My collegues? They were all living the high life smoking Cohibas and drinking Grey Goose. What do they have to show for it? Memories of standing in the bathroom pissing it out? Ashes in the ashtray? They money they spent on their lifestyle, I saved and bought a safety net.

Cheap labor, blame the consumer. We like to buy things cheaply. I'm of the opinion that Walmart obfusicated the actual inflation of the 90s to date because prices of goods should have gone up but haven't.

People aren't interested in decreasing their day to day money, so they dip into savings, over extend themselves with credit.

Now wax nostalgic about Australia or Europe all you want. They are just as debt laden. Many Europeans carry debt in excess of $75,000 at the last article I read. EU is creating problems with cheap labor migrating from the poorer countries to the wealthier countries who are claiming the same types of issues.

Talking about better life than your parents, what does that mean? Buying a new home? There are more programs than ever today to help people buy their own home that aren't predatory lending instruments. Buying a car? There are more choices than ever to buy a NEW dependable car below $10,000.

I'm not necessarily going to speak to what kind of music people are enjoying, because I'm not sure that's likely to be a phenomenon of anything more than different tastes. But I would certainly agree that a major ill in our society is the monopolization of the media. Right now we basically get all our news, cultural commentary, and political coverage from six or eight sources. That is not what a free press is supposed to be. It is an unfortunate consequence of campaign finance laws permitting what is essentially legal bribery by special interests, ultra-right wing nutballs filling the positions on the FCC, and the Executive and Legislative being far too interested in playing petty power games and lining their pockets to agree on strengthening our antiquated anti-trust legislation and directing the DOJ to puruse vigorous prosecution of media conglomerates for violating anti-monopoly laws.

It is shocking how, if you go to other countries, their news and political coverage is far more thoughtful and nuanced than ours. Also, it was only after I spent a couple of weeks in Europe, that I realized how saturated our media is with Christian religious rhetoric. Try taking a couple of weeks and counting how many stories you see in newspapers, magazines, and on television that have to do with "religion" (which almost invariably means Christianity) or religious beliefs. Try counting how often that kind of language appears in our political discourse over those couple of weeks. I did this, when I got back from Europe a couple of years ago, and I was sickened, especially when my count went into the triple digits before the first week was up.

I am spending the year living in Israel, The Jewish State. And when I read their major newspapers and magazines, there is far less presentation of Jewish religious rhetoric than there is of Christian religion in the newspapers and magazines in America. There is also a much broader spectrum of coverage of news, society, and politics, than there is in American newspapers and magazines-- despite the fact that Israel has no law providing a free press. I can't help but suppose it might have something to do with the fact that there are independent news sources, with different owners and publishers, and the whole thing isn't conglomeratized. It seems to me that if a country like Israel, which has no laws about free press or monopolies, and which actually is literally in the middle of a war on terrorists (not an abstract excuse for using the military to fund the military-industrial complex, but actual fighting with actual terrorists, right at the country's front door, so to speak) can have free, independent, thoughtful, critical press coverage, there is no excuse why America, which ought to have a leg up with its laws and protections, cannot.

If I'm 24 and I sound like that, does that mean there's something wrong with me?

you sound like billy joel?

he doesn't even LOOK like billy joel...

I am a piano man. :thumbsup:

Anybody remember that old Temptations classic, "Ball of Confusion"

I was going to respond to the OP but then I read your post and figured you said everything I was going to say. Only likely better.

Only thing I'd add is I would have guessed Buffett would have been higher on the concert list. His latest album was 1# on the country charts and 4# on billboards. But what do I know I'm just Tully.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_the_weather_with_you

You make your own world. Fuck all that other shit.

I tell you, I have spent my life gathering things - thoughts, sounds, concepts, images, words, ideals - and I discover new ones almost every day. I really couldn't care less what is happening in mass culture. I take from it what I want and ignore the rest. And having been on the planet for a while, what I notice is...these things pass along and are replaced again and again by newer and shinier products, while the things I love tend to grow and morph and continue to give me joy and inspiration.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

As for concerts, their popularity is a direct response to the segment of the population that is able to buy tickets to them.

In the future could you try not to be so vague and tell us what you really think?

Fuck yeah. :p

There will always be part of the world that need fixing, and as people who don't have their heads up their asses, it's our responsibility to try and fix them otherwise no one will fix them.

I'm probably going to be alive for another 60 years. I will not watch everything go to shit in my lifetime. My kids kids and my decedents will be able to look back and say "Grampa Will took care of his shit. He left the world better for his kids than his parents left for him."

Good for you. Could you start by getting Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears out my news every time they fuck up their lives a little more?

They are out of my news. Stop watching the news. :)

/me didn't mean to get so many of you so excited about a life so mundane...

The real trick to this is effecting the market via a popular blog. Serious stock and investment blogs run hollywood. If whatever evil corporation that owns TMZ suddenly starts losing investors because a big blog talked about how Paris and Britney are going to be unpopular in the next 2 quarters, you'll see the stories disappear.

It'd have to start with a big entertainment blog like http://www.thesuperficial.com/ then move on to a stock blog like www.istockblog.com.

I like the Paris and Brittney stories. It helps me laugh at people who are more fucked up than I am.

Bush isn't enough for ya, eh?

Last time I found Bush humorous was in 2001. Somewhere around the 10th of Sept.

Actually that's not true. I was with him until he started talking about Iraq.

it's on ebay......don't expect me to say anything smart......

Not only are citizens ignorant about essential scientific, civic and cultural knowledge, she said, but they also don’t think it matters.

trick is that i think the book sounds kinda facile.
read on.
yes, it's a book review.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/bo...364&ei=5087%0A

problems of crotchedly generalization aside, it's kinda difficult to deny that us amuricans live in a culture of stupid. entertainment is easy: gathering information and processing it in an autonomous but coherent way is not.

but if you want a one-sentence explanation for much of the handwringing about cultural malaise---which i think obtains for almost everything about mainstream american life (almost--->it must regenerate itself and so cannot enclose itself in this--->whence it's need to act as parasite on the underground):

Not only are citizens ignorant about essential scientific, civic and cultural knowledge, she said, but they also don’t think it matters.

Hey Crompsin, another reason I want to see the world end.

One word... APATHY

Ah, but then why is America still the smartest, richest and toughest nation in the world?

USA! USA! USA! USA!

Crass jingoism is always the solution...

carry on.

Another one lulled into a false sense of security ;)

Waiting for my daughter to get out of school in the afternoons, I very often end up in line behind this one car that is covered with patriotic bumper stickers and one of them says 'Support America. Be an American!!' and it's very annoying 'cause here he is in his '80s-era, gas guzzling American landyacht with bumper stickers plastered all over the back...ya know...telling people to be more American.

Which always reminds me of this video:

(The main song starts at 1:00)

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yeah, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Always has been, always will. I say take it back to King Arthur's days, where every knight sat at a round table, where everyone was equal. Except for the peasants. And christianity was the only religion. And justice came at the point of a sword. I say that for people who want to know and be informed, more information is available then ever before. But many people have always been satisfied with their limited knowledge and their tiny perspective on the world. I know my views have expanded and broadened, even in the past year.

Now come one, be honest, it is a American made car, right?

I love these guys...

"I support the troops!"... "Send my kid, are you kidding?"

"I support the war, anyone who doesn't is un-American and should move to France!"... "Pay for the war? Ah, hell no I want every dollar I earn!"

Guess they're not interested in having their kids fight the war but have no problem having their grand kids pay for it.

Did you enjoy Gomer Pyle, USMC? I kinda get that "we're at war, but idiots can still be funny" vibe from Bush. Cheney is a dead ringer for Sgt. Carter. "PYYYLE!!"

ClearChannel and those guys do suck, but they've made business decisions. There are no "great" bands for teen music and our kids' tastes are so diverse because they are exposed to so much new music on myspace, that the execs and producers don't know where to go. Necessity and the internet have brought a new "cool" into town.

Most teens today think "radio bands" are not cool (FallOut Boy comes to mind). These kids are the first total myspace generation. Each kid has bands that they've "discovered" and push their parents to take them to "shows". For those not familiar, they're clubs that hire (usually) four (myspace) bands that will tour together to play from 8 - 11 pm, one night only, in different cities in a region. These shows are very intimate, maybe 2-300 people can stand, there are no seats. You can touch and hug band members, get autographs, etc.

I've taken my teens to two concerts this year, and we have two more planned in the next month or two. At $15 or less per ticket, it's a fairly inexpensive night out where they can see their favorite bands and meet up with the myspace "friends" that like the same music.

Sometimes, these kids and the shows will make the band, i.e. My Chemical Romance, which started this way. But now the other kids won't listen to them anymore, because now they're a "radio band". Get it? :p

We've all done this as teens; we wanted to be listening to something that made us different. And it is, it's just the same kind of different.

Or: I agree with Charlatan. :D

I can accept the changes in entertainment.... I guess that is just me getting old.

But really come on now, people work hard and try to live the American dream and because they didn't have the right credit they end up in an ARM... then they lose their jobs and rates go up? How is that their fault? And to say "it's just business".

Have we truly become so fucking greedy that we just don't care about others problems as long as we have ours?

I mean we look for cheaper products, so we can buy more, but in the end we ship jobs overseas and the jobs we do keep here pay less and less so then we have to find cheaper goods but that leads to even more jobs being lost and lower wages and so on...... we are facing a downward spiral and all anyone can say is "It's business now, tough shit learn to deal with it...etc".

Then we have candidates, that be honest now, are so inept and have no ideas how to save this country from the downward spiral, that it is sad. Not one of these candidates would have ever gotten this close to the presidency 10,20,30 years ago..... We need a truly great leader to save this country and we get Obama, McCain and Clinton? Wow.

We are at war and yet we buy more and more imports every year. China is our greatest rival and enemy and we are worried that they may cash in their dollars and plummet our economy? How the Hell did we allow them to get that much power over us?

And we won't even talk about how crazy we all seem to be getting.

As much as I want to be optimistic and love this country and believe that we will overcome.... I just can't be that anymore. I see a sad out of control downward spiral and not enough people care enough to stop it.

You know, Grandpa used to say things like that twenty years ago. In fact, he said it several times in a row because he kept forgetting that he'd just had that conversation (btw that was not a joke). I could understand what he was saying then, but I can see it even more clearly now. I think we're getting old, Pan.

You don't have to have take an ARM. No one puts a gun to your head to sign on the dotted line. That's a conscious choice. You could continue to rent and work on your credit. Of course, while that goes on the prices continue to fluctuate, by the time your credit is good, you may or may not be be able to finally purchase something. How is that again MY fault? YOU fucked up your credit. Remember when the teacher said, "This is going to go on your permanent record." Well, there is some place where there is REAL consequence to your bad choices and decisions. A person who has poor credit pays more for things, and thus if they have less dollars earned they waste money on higher interest rates. Again, how is that MY fault? High FICO scores aren't about high wages, they are about good credit

from businessweek.com
You will pay an additional $154,131 <---- Is that really MY problem?


It's never changed.

Everyone cares about themselves FIRST. I know that I do. If you don't, that's great, but when push comes to shove, will you really give your last bite of food to someone else and starve yourself?

No one tells you to carry a huge debt load on your credit cards. Watching any of the shows like Suze Orman where people call in and say things like "I've got $30,000 in credit card debt, but I'd like to know if I can afford to go on this $10,000 European vacation." "WTF?" Is what goes on in my head when I see or hear this kind of irresponsible question and behavior.

People overspend for Christmas and go into debt for the a good portion of the year, is that responsible? Because they want to have a "nice" Christmas. or but Johnny wanted that XBox360 so I had to get it for him. No fuckin' way. You do without, you make sacrifices, you do something else. You don't go into debt to buy things that don't matter.

While I do sympathize over jobs lost, I still maintain that this is the way the world is going and there is little you can do to change the increase in the Globalization of goods and services.

As I see it, the choices are this:

a) restrict or close the borders to trade and services and prices will go up via inflation or the increased costs of manufacturing, etc. Not to mention, the additional benefits that generally come with increased trade - increasingly stable world politics through greater mutual understand, etc.

b) learn to work in the new realities, experience an adjustment in lifestyle and opportunities, etc.

It's interesting, for years many have called for increased foreign aid and support for the third world. Now that some of these nations are stumbling towards self sustaining economies, sometimes at the expense of jobs in the west, those same people are crying foul.

You can't have it both ways.

I agree with this. The world is changing. People in other countries (not American, no, but how much does that really matter?) are reaping the benefits (and the headaches) of opportunities that seemed unthinkable just a generation ago. We are still better off than about 90% of the rest of the world who *wish* they had something as mundane to complain about as the sluggish economy and their credit scores.

Suck it up, I say.

yeah, the curious thing i suppose is that this globalizing capitalism game has been sold to folk as an unqualified good--which probably got taken to mean "good for me" since the Good and "good for me" are synonymous here
(i dont know if that's a particularity or not...i suspect it kinda is and kinda isnt)

but let's not be naive about what globalization means: mostly it means, if you actually look at it, the exportation of new and improved versions of the worst features of american-style mass production-oriented factory-fragments (now suppliers in supply chains) to places with weak labor laws, no unions and a big version of what marx used to call the "industrial reserve army"---the central spaces within which these operations are located are those strange "free trade zones" or tax havens---which makes them free of any meaningful contact with the surrounding economies--they are not in ANY meaningful sense contributing to the "development"--what the fuck does that mean?--of the "third world" (which was where before 1960? o wait, i remember: it was empire--and so this "globalization" thing...why it's neocolonialism..but no no, no-one reads those books anymore)...

you remember the good old days, those halcyon days of neoliberal-inspired debt spirals, forced privatization of infrastructure (including in many cases water) repression of political dissent all in the name of "free markets". of course you do.

the state is dismantled, transfers of wealth erased to the greatest possible extent, markets opened for american agricultural combines to dump the results of pathological overproduction of industrial farm objects--and furhter afield, in the various manufacturing shitholes brought to you by nike or versace or the computer hardware manufacturer of your choice wages are low low low and explotiation is high high high and if Trouble comes, the facility can just move.

go team.

all this for the greater profit of shareholders in this the great milton freidman be-responsible-for-nothing-except-profit world expressed in domestic political terms by the populist right and republican party--you know, that curious combination of absolute priority given to profit on the one hand and wholesale delusion about what that might mean for the working joe--now more likely the "service industry joe" in the united states.

there are other things happening as well--the same logic has been applied to more skilled work, and NOW suddenly globalizing capitalism is a bit more scary--but it is STILL in neoliberal-land an unqualified good and trying to oppose it is like being king lear...

let's try to be realistic about this folks--even though it's hard to say anything coherent about much of anything in these little boxes---stock has been trading transnationally since 1970 or so. Since 1970 then the ownership of capitalist firms has no longer been specific to nation-states. Since the 1980s and accelerating through the 1990s, you had a huge extension of just-in-time system inspired remodelling of manufacturing and the fragments of the process--"outsourced"--followed in general terms the pattern set by ownership.

in the united states, the hostility toward unions and the fact that many many people were chumped into buying the ideology of "free markets" is a condition of possibility for this kind of outcome--it is a condition of possibility to the extent that it is about the political consent that was required.

so it seemed to me that for 40 years alot of americans had their collective head up a collective ass about what was happening around you: now you pull it out, look around can't understand what you see because you refused to look beforehand and you cry foul.

presumably like most folk you supported the illusion of free markets and the concomitant lie about the greatest good for the greatest number because you thought that meant everything would be hunky dory for you---americans are like that in a way--it's all one great big lake woebegon, where everybody is above average.


as if this is not disturbing enough for nationalists, the bush administration has been a very significant accelerant in the american loss of power in financial markets. another transnational affair. we haven't really felt the effect of this one yet--but they're coming.

we are about to arrive the new third world.
we hope you've enjoyed your flight.
you booked the ticket, you slept for most of the ride, you misread the brochures.
but as you're about to find out, this is a cheap destination because, despite the photos and tourist copy, it sucks here. and there's no way out.

Yes, I don't mean to imply that globalization is an altruistic endeavor, but it is certainly changing the lives of many people the world over - some for worse, some for better. I realize that exporting our way of life takes with it much of the things that I dislike, even abhor sometimes, about our values - cog-in-the-machine-ism, soulless consumerism, industrial sprawl, etc., etc., but there's no denying that giving people work in many places has enabled them to more easily accomplish basic tasks, like eating regularly. If I put myself in their place, I'd think that the concerns I've expressed above were pompous - the concerns of people who have not walked in my shoes.

But it is kind of delightful that those who have touted the unfettered glory of free market capitalism have found that their enthusiasm has borders - nationalistic pride - while the corporations, mega-corporations, industrial monoliths and their like recognize no such borders. They'll make the money wherever they can find it, whether it benefits Americans or not.

well, it's more complicated than all that, methinks--in that they're expressions of the largely appalling dynamics of neocolonialism (of course there are folk who benefit, there are economic elites, often the products of this same process): but for alot of folk, these dynamics disappear behind a reality shaped by them--so in already miserable conditions, working in a factory for a tiny amount of money might be better than nothing---but if you read or hear what alot of these folk say about the day-to-day that these gigs make available to them, it's kinda difficult to swallow that "this is better than.." thing.

bottom line is that these firms are so completely, utterly irresponsible that it kinda defies the imagination. what assures that they will stay irresponsible is that they can pack up shop and leave if their margins get hit by most anything. there is, apparently, always a shittier place and always more desperate people to exploit. we of course wear the jersies they make, the shoes they make, drive the cars that contain the components of components that they assemble somewhere way down the supply chain that feeds the supply chain that feeds the supply chain. we have no real contact with or understanding of these conditions.

factor in that the same debt spiral that enabled the leveraging of things like "free-trade zones" also forced may governments into structural adjustment programs, which forced eliminations in a host of social services that were supposed to amerliorate the already shitty situations created for these folk by neo-colonialism---and in many areas by colonialism before that--and, well, it seems that for alot of the world's population, the reality that our socio-economic realities directly or indirectly sit atop of is so unbelievably shitty that it's almost not clear whether it's better to know about it or not.

it's probably better to know, somehow--but not if you're not in a position to do something to change things. just knowing and sitting with it---it's kinda horrifying. i'm serious about this: i sometimes wonder if it is damaging to know too much about this sort of thing without being able to do something with the information.


so that even if areas of the united states are sliding inch by inch into a new third world...folk in alot of areas in the south are sliding into the uncharted dimension of a fourth world--especially in sub-saharan africa.

sometimes the world is *so* ugly--sometimes it's necessary to sit and watch the birds outside. even in the crappiest of places, the same idea holds. there is solace, somehow.

I can't say that I have a whole lot more to add to that, but what cynical way to look at the world. There are so many cliches that can be thrown around..... The Liberal Media controls the world...Big government is tearing this country apart.... too many more to list.

While I agree with the OP I feel that money is the root of all these things. A necessary evil.

Or some of us go to school later in life, get fed the "financial aid" BS and after graduation, can't find a job and get stuck with 10's of thousands of school debt.....get the ARM because the school debt has swallowed us whole and then can barely make the mortgage....these weren't bad decisions, just bad results because those that control the money don't want to give it up without a fight.
.Being caught up in exactly that, it's hard to see it as "just business" but what else is it? The spouse lost what was thought to be a very secure job with a huge cosmetics manufacturer only to be told after 16.5 years that it's "just business,buhbye" as they move to Costa Rica or some such place.
This nation is becoming a nation of services, no longer interested in the pride of the American-made label because it's become too expensive to support those who make slapping that label on the box possible. It is a cycle of greed, but it's not the American worker who comes out of it unscathed. CEO's discovered the power of vested interest, took their wallets and ran outta town.
Jack Roush, a NASCAR car owner, ranted last year about allowing Toyota into Cup racing because it wasn't an American carmaker. Ironically, the badge, Camry, is the only fully-made American car in NASCAR. Chevy, Ford and Dodge all have most of their parts made off-shore.
AMEN! This election year is pitiful. Simply pitiful. There's two candidates arguing their "experience" and there's less than 20 years of that experience between them. Since when is being married to a president "experience"? I'm actually scared of whatever the results in November will be and I've been voting for 30 years. Did you know that if Hillary got elected, by the end of that first term we'd have had a quarter century of Bush/Clinton "leadership"? *me shudders
Nixon probably thought that by opening the trade with China, it would cause the downfall of their communism. He was wrong. In the meantime the afore-mentioned CEOs liked their growing bank accounts and couldn't care less about the politics of it all. Greed has no social conscience.
People care, but the power is not in laymen's hands. As you mentioned, look what we have running for president. Look who is controlling the money, the war machine, the nation's resources. It's not you, not me and not our neighbors. The millions of us are controlled by the few of them. Know how, if you go to a go-go bar, wave a 10 dollar bill, the dancer will come to you, wiggle her ass and get your $10? We're expected to wiggle while the ones holding everything call the shots. Example: I just got our gas and electric bill-$1200, part of which is from being past due. Can I pay it all? Nope. Can I tell them to shove it and I'll go elsewhere? Nope. I gotta wiggle....and I'm too busy wiggling to help anyone else or even come up with how to help anyone else.
We care, Pan, at least most of us. But we're all going down the same spiral and grabbing onto whatever we can to at least slow the fall. There are those who, like CYN, feel it's NMP and they're probably right. But when things get so askew that every newscast starts with what's happening with our economy, when people are forced to make choices between going out to dinner or paying a bill, the effects spread to everyone, whether they care or not.
Every decade for as long as I can remember, we've been listening to the doomsayers proclaim this country near a recession, in a recession, heading towards a depression, etc. It's still never gotten as bad as 1929 and I doubt it will.Doesn't make it any less scary for those of us walking the edge, but I have to believe that not every tunnel is endless.

Or one goes to the Dr. one day and hear a string of words put together that they've never heard before. Two years later their bank account is near empty and three out of every four calls are from companies, mainly hospitals and doctors, are looking for "their" money. The other call is from some fool thinking you have money to buy something they're selling. I was lucky I had insurance and a business that continued to earn income even in my absence. Still wasn't enough. Insurance companies, it turns out, love to deny things. You know like medical care. Could have sworn when I bought it it was called medical insurance. Fortunately an arbitrator agreed with me.


No shit! I drove down to southern Mexico last summer. Eleven days in my Ford truck. I never once worried about finding a part. Must have pasted 15 very large Ford plants on the trip. I can also almost guaranty you any Wranger jeans you buy are being made down here.

Nafta was suppose to benefit everyone, at least to some degree. Well try buying an imported item down here. I just went in search of a digital camera to replace one that went tits up. I looked on-line and thought I'd buy a Nikon. Amazon had it for around $750 with the lens I wanted. Down here at Costco? $1500, most of the increase is the national sales tax. I glanced at the laptops and the one I bought right before leaving for about $1200 was $2300.

I know people who fly to Florida to replace their laptops, it's cheaper.



Yep, seems we're left looking at the lesser of three evils, which I'm told is still evil.

No some people will always want more. They're members of the "never is enough" club. And they don't give a shit if you starve.


Really since it became necessary, for whatever reason, for families to need two incomes the tunnel end never seems to appear, IMHO.

(Sung to: "We Are The Champions" by Queen)


I've paid my dues

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../mayflower.jpg

Time after time

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...n/stampact.jpg

I've done my sentence

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...own/mexico.jpg

But committed no crime

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...n/osimpson.jpg

And bad mistakes

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...erclown/06.jpg

I've made a few

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...wn/lynndie.jpg

I've had my share of sand kicked in my face

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rclown/wtc.jpg

But I've come through

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...racleonice.jpg

We are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...psurrender.jpg

My friends

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...own/Israel.jpg

And we'll keep on fighting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...hroomcloud.jpg

To the end

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...wn/sherman.jpg

We are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...apollo11-1.jpg

We are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...lown/flag2.gif

No time for losers

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...hsurrender.jpg

'Cause we are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ictorykiss.jpg

of the World

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...n/mostfree.jpg

What?

continued:
 

I've taken my bows

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...youamerica.jpg

And my curtain calls

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...onFarewell.jpg

You brought me fame

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...n/crazyjap.jpg

and fortune

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...n/liberace.jpg

And everything that goes with it

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...lagburning.jpg

I thank you all

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...-yeahright.gif

But it's been no bed of roses

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ivilrights.jpg

No pleasure cruise

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...elesscoder.jpg

I consider it a challenge before
The whole human race

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...whitesonly.jpg

And I ain't gonna lose

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...clown/icbm.jpg

We are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Armstrong6.jpg

My friends

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...clown/7602.jpg

And we'll keep on fighting
Till the end

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4..._of_saigon.jpg

We are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...-kobayashi.jpg

We are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...lown/tw410.jpg

No time for losers

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rclown/LA2.jpg

'Cause we are the champions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...own/saddam.jpg

of the World

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...wn/hacksaw.jpg

Jesus fucking christ powerclown. Ugh.

PowerClown, while I used to agree with all that, it ain't so anymore.

Our sports are corrupt, our entertainers are screwed up in the head and these people make more in a lifetime than teachers, cops, people who truly better society will make in 50 lifetimes.

Life isn't fair, true, but we have such gaps between the haves and have nots that it is pathetic and truly dangerous. We have people who have worked hard all their lives and because of medical, ARMS, student loans, outsourcing, temp services and so on, they lose it all. And the saddest part is the people who are next to lose keep saying, "well those who have lost made poor decisions...it's all their fault... blah blah blah".

Meanwhile, the CEO's keep making more in one day than 90% of their workers combined will in 1 year. They have care only about more and more. Now we have to ask why.

Why are these CEO's stockpiling their monies? Why are these men building fortresses for homes? Why do they feel the need to buy private islands, own 100's of acres and have armed guards? Because they know eventually the workers will revolt.

In order to keep from a revolution, we need to make sure people make barely enough to live so they can't afford to care enough to revolt, prevent them from organizing by making them all hate each other (racisms, partisanship, paranoia, etc) and feed them pablum news items... did you hear the latest on Britney, Bengelina, Clemens, etc... while issues such as the government and waterboarding, the Patriot Act, the war... etc become little blurb news items that no one pays attention to.

Except for a few sports items and the capture of Hussein.... what picture there represents what's best about the country in the last 25 years?

A space program that is in shambles and soon will have no program to send men up for at minimum 10 years while they build the "new" ships.

Industries that have left communities and states near bankruptcy as hey ship jobs overseas?

A government no longer by the people, for the people but controlled by corporate/foreign/ whack job extremist lobbyists?

We have had enough. We the people need to get right what is wrong and find those who will make it happen and cast out those who say "nothing is wrong, the people losing everything... it''s their own damn faults not ours, not big business, not governments.....

meanwhile:

for every person losing a job that tax money is lost.... who do you think makes up the loss?

as people lose more and more and people get paid less and less.... what do you think their kids see?

crime increases as economies falter, drug use increases, discontent, violence and so on all keep increasing.

Those who say nothing is wrong are far far removed from the streets and the communities where the discontent is growing. First it hits the "bad" areas, but eventually and that time is approaching very fast where these people decide to start going after the haves....(hence he fortress homes, the homes overseas, the 100's of acres with armed guards that are small militaries).

The time is coming fast... you can feel it, smell it, see it and know it deep down. And the people who keep saying, "it's not my problem... it's all theirs..." who have bought into the propaganda from the very wealthy and believe that nothing will ever happen to them because they are smart..... will be the ones the rich men they protected throw to the wolves first. And when those protectionists are gone.... the rich will acquiesce and make concessions to restore the peace.

It happens in every revolution and every uprising... the Romans formed European royal families and the Holy Roman Catholic Church after the troops they had built from conquered city states failed, the British sent Hessians over and surrendered when the Hessians from Germany stopped coming to their aid, the French nobles that controlled Louis were in Prague and other parts of Europe before the revolution because they saw it coming, same with the Romanov family from Russia, the USSR communists just changed parties and said "ok, freedoms" and so on and so on.

Those in power and with the money, do not give it up until those they fool into believing that they too will have power, lose.

Pessimistic? Perhaps. But the time is coming soon, again we all can feel something big is going to happen..... the question is what are you willing to do to stop it NOW before it gets that far?

Then again..... PowerClown.... it could just be we all lack Ghoul Power and the magic of Froggy.

Least you got it, I thought someone put the wrong mushrooms on his salad last night. Also got many of the lyrics wrong. I mean come on it's "Bohemian Rhapsody." It was in "Waynes World," it's a classic, get it right.


I pretty much agree with you on all points. Except I think the fat cats are building bigger houses and more stuff to show off to other fat cats, again with the "never is enough" club. They're not worried about any revolt, the US population has been beaten down so long they'll accept anything at this point. I heard a congress women from some upper mid west state bragging about the workers in her district. She said (something like) "We're really proud of our work ethic up here, most people are working two job and some even three! And she said that like it was a good thing. Hey dumb ass- people are working two and three jobs because your economy SUCKS ASS!

People are too busy feeding their families to revolt against anything or any one.

Interesting that the song was written and sung by Britons...

Just saying.

What...you don't like Queen? They're British too, right. It was bad at the end of Carter's presidency too, and look how things improved after 8 years of The Gipper.

i suppose that anyone can say just anything on a messageboard--but this is just dissociative. that cant be a happyplace. well, i suppose it can if you dont know its dissociative.

WAKE UP.

I love Queen. I hate threadjacks. This is the father of all threadjacks.

I don't think PC was a threadjack.

Says exactly why he posted them here. And he has a very legitimate point, it has looked bad in this country in the past and we have always come through stronger. It's optimism I wish I still had, to be honest.

No, those pics show me that we should be looking at them going, "we DID that and WE can do better NOW."

Unfortunately, the pessimists in all of us and the first reactions are "threadjack" and that is part of the problem. We have been conditioned to look at inspirational things and say "that's the past". It may well be, the problems above are very real and we need a great leader to help us recover from first though.

Once we rebuild and get back to sanity (if it is possible.. but again we need a ruly great leader that inspires, McCain/Obama/Clinton are not exactly inspirational) we will accomplish all those and more. I just hope it is soon. I don't want to leave a fucked up nation that is borderline third world with no hope to me son and someday grandchildren. I want a country for them as great as the country that I, my parents and grandparents grew up in.

there are structural problems that we need to address--or at least face--the implications of choices that are now part of the collective history that shapes the realities we move through. addressing these problems really isn't a matter of attitude.

personally, my optimism about the states resides entirely in the possibility that we can, collectively, make fundamental changes in the system that we work within. i think it is, in fact, possible that we can make this a different, better place on a more rational and sustainable basis than it now is.

take for example the ridiculous levels of state spending that is pushed into the military. i put up a thread about this last night in politics because i happened to find a couple articles that spoke directly to this problem and which use recent data to make the case---the american system is proving to be about as flexible as the soviet system was--absurd levels of resources have gone into "defense" systems (the soviet correlate was heavy industry and military sectors) to the neglect of civilian-oriented activities, infrastructure, education, etc. this model has been wrapped up in others--the delusional system of "free markets" for example--the consequences of which lay behind every last point in the op, and every last point that has followed---they fit together in that military expenditures and war was taken as a mechanism to stabilize the economy in general (this is one argument--i think the picture is more complicated, but hey, this is a messageboard and complexity is an affliction). this is coming unravelled and the problems you complain about are symptoms.

this is not the end of the world.
there are alternatives which are possible--if we face the reality we are dealing with. if we don't--welcome to the new third world. but i don't think we are collectively past a point of no return. but to face that reality and do begin maybe doing something about it requires work and that work requires--i think--a basically different political context--one in which information about problems is as important as information that enables you or me or anyone else to "feel good" and by feeling good to pretend that everything is basically hunky dory--it is irresponsible to retreat into this position at a point where things need to change, the basic priorities we have been working within for 60 years have to change, the model is finished, it is over--but not everything is over--the model has simply run its course.

i personally do not care about patriotism and the circle-jerk that is its core--but i do care that a more humane system, a more sustainable system is possible and that the same levels of effort and ingenuity that went into fashioning the current model could be expended making a different, better one.

the world as it currently is is an ugly ugly place in many ways--but it doesn't have to be that way. change is not automatic. change is political--politics is information, debate, deliberation. there is no god that will take care of us--we are not a city on a hill--nothing is accomplished by self-congratulation or pining for a previous moment when self-congratulation was easier.

we have to look.
we have to wake up and look.
we have to figure out how to act--even if it's in a small context and affects small things--the make a different SYSTEM---a variant of what is, but not the same as what is.

there are reasons to be optimistic.
there are reasons not to be.
much depends on how you see the choices, whether you see them as being addressed or not.

right now, most of what i see in american politics is avoidance.
that can go on--and the shit will hit the fan--and then we'll all be boo hoo something bad happened where we you daddy why didnt you think for us so that we could be safe. or we could collectively grow the fuck up, stop pretending that we are the world and start thinking about how to make things otherwise.

take money out of the ridiculous military-industrial contractor-orld and spend it on rebuilding infrastructure, set up microcredit systems that enable new types of economic and social diversity to unfold, invest state funds in supporting civilian oriented economic possibilities--provide universal health care, change the way public education is funded away from local property taxes to flat funding across states. rebuild infrastructure, change the transportation model away from our near-exclusive reliance on automobiles.

why the hell not? the united states spends more on "defense" against imaginary enemies than the rest of the world put together. and that's just one sector.


there are lots of possibilities--try to look forward.
the past is gone.
no amount of lamentation will change that.
the past is gone, over, dead as a doornail and every minute it falls further and further away. there is no going back.


but we are alive--and that is a lovely thing--and we should look and move forward because there really is no other rational choice.

what improved?

powerclown, if Ronald Reagan was not a "product" of the activity and intent displayed below, (please tell me the date when the "process", and the "playas"...the wealthy scions of society who controlled the media...."changed", and I will withdraw my comments...) WTF was Reagan, then?

If I, as you do, found my own POV to be so closely in synch with the wealthiest, conservative white men who call the shots in the good ole USA, i wouldn't be posting confirmation of it on an internet discussion forum..... I'd be too concerned about triggering suspicion that I was incapable of thinking anything that was not influenced by huge amounts of investment of those who require many to think the way you do, if they hope to overcome their lack of a natural constituency, each election day.

Out of many things, he gave millions of Americans reason to be optimistic again. Like what Kennedy did for America in the 60s. Would you consider that improvement?

Nope. "We Are the Champions." Only lyric he got wrong was "And I never lose", not 'we ain't gonna lose".

are you serious?

between ronnie raygunz and GB I, this country was seriously headed for the economic toilet. i defer to Host for the particulars...

where were you in the 70's and early 80s?

Well wipe the egg from my face. Knew the lyric was off but had the song all wrong. Perhaps I should check my salad mushrooms?

I was dicking around at the time, much like Carter. Reagan's tax cuts and regulatory reforms led to some of the greatest economic times this country has ever known. He set into motion events that created 17 million new jobs, and cut black unemployment in half. Pretty impressive in my book.

powerclown, is it "improvement"....the result of Reagan persuading so many to engage in "politics of avoidance"? His message was that a disasterous war was a "noble cause", and that "free markets" should be permitted to feed us "cheap oil", until we abandoned all of Carter's alternative energy initiatives and investment, and until the entire fledgling solar energy industry was bought up and curtailed by big oil, itself. The lesson that could have been learned from the war in Vietnam, was "avoided", and here we are today, trapped in Iraq and in Afghanistan, all of our ground forces, and even our National Guard.

The US is totally dependent on foreign oil and "enjoys" twin $700 billion plus annual debt increases in trade and national debt. Oil hit $103 per bbl, just this week.

Yeah, "Ronnie" made us "feel good", because he told us not to worry about oil or imperialistic foreign poilicy, and we listened. The rich ole boy WASP oligarchy that paid to produce "Ronnie" and to persuade you to think politically and socially, in lockstep with the way they think, must be awfully proud of the way their plan has worked out. They are wealthier than ever before, but we're ?????


From post #14 <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108864">Vietnam:Reagan's "Noble War", The Left forced the US to fight with one hand tied,Or?</a> thread:

We can step back in time to Kennedy and his sending more than just a patrolling "police action" to Vietnam....by the time Johnson took over, we were so far into the pit, he couldn't see his way out....

Remember the "gas crisis" of about 1978-78? Wasn't Reagan. Carter.
In 1981, during Reagan's first full year, interest rates went up
in a bid to stop the "great inflation of the 60's and 70's". The recession that followed was dubbed the worst since the Great Depression, but was shortlived; within one year, the US experienced a "robust expansion".
Source

Every election year, we go through an "economic crisis". It's fear generated by the money traders but we blame it on whomever holds office. Of course, the president of time isn't totally blameless, but neither is he wholly responsible. But it's so much easier to blame one guy than memorize the names of all those who truly are responsible.

ngdawg, I am glad that you are posting regulalry here. But I don't read the same "stuff" you do, I guess.....

From Kennedy's last two news conferences:




Kennedy did not live to give another news conference because he died in Dallas, eight days later....

What did you like best about the "Reagan economic miracle", was it the huge increase in debt triggered by deep tax cuts and simultaneous increases in military spending? We still haven't paid back the $3-1/2 trillion, and the interest paid to service that debt has long since eclipsed any benefit from the "expansion" it helped to drive. It took more than 80 years to accumulated a national debt just under $1 trillion. Reagan racked up a quick $1-1/2 trillion and his successor, Bush, almost $2 trillion more.....

Yes, the national debt, just under $1 trillion when Reagan's first annual federal budget year began, only increased 4-1/2 times, by the time we were rid of 12 years of Reagan/Bush voodoo fiscal discipline.

In the year preceding the first Clinton managed federal budget, the years ending 9/30/93, the national debt had increased $390 billion in just 12 months.

At the end of the 7th Clinton managed budget year, on 9/30/00, the national debt increased just $18 billion in the previous 12 months, and unemployment was at it's lowest percentage level, ever.

Isn't it easier to "ramp up" job growth when you are increasing the national debt by $350 billion per year, on average over 12 years, than when you are reducing it, to an average of just $160 billion per year, over the subsequent seven year period?

Whre in those Kennedy interviews does he state that he increased the "police action" in Vietnam from 500 US troops to 16,000?

These are probably Kennedy's last public words on the subject, in an answer to a reporter during his final news conference, on 11/14/63:

Now what is it that you are trying to do with this? The man was suddenly killed. Before he died, he state his intent for the direction of troop levels in Vietnam, as I documented in the quotes from his last two news conferences, in my last post.

If he had not been killed, and had done the opposite as far as troop levels in Vietnam, of wha the said he planned to do, I could see where you are trying to take your srgument. That is not how things went. He did not live to do anything beyond what he said he planned to do.

What influences your apparently unwavering opinion on this? Is it the interpretation of others? Who are they?

I don't have an unwaivering opinion of this. It's a simple fact-Kennedy increased the troops presence in Vietnam from 500 to 16,000. It matters not what he "said" he'd do because he was killed.
How many of us get judged by what we say we're going to do? I'm thinking...nobody but politicians.

If I have any opinion at all it's that we as Americans need to stop sugarcoating things and making people saints. The 'Good Old Days" weren't that good, they're just old. This thread is about that, more or less. For every sentiment, there's a reality and for every reality, there's an alternate version.
Kennedy was martyred-he made some major blunders during his short term; only by being assassinated was his position elevated to that of regal US saint.

This is the vast reason nothing gets done and we continue to spiral downward.

PowerClown is entitled to his opinion on Reagan, as is everyone else.

But we get all caught up in pointing fingers and saying Bush, Reagan, Carter, Kennedy, Clinton.... and then we argue to defend our opinion of the past.

Meanwhile, we continue this spiral downward and no one comes up with any solutions. Just finger pointing and blaming everyone else that doesn't agree with us.

Stop the fucking insanity and let's work for solutions. Let's work together and find out how to stop the spiral, instead of arguing where it started and who did what when.

The finger pointing and blame game doesn't change anything, won't change the past, won't change someone's opinion, won't stop the downward spiral.

Hey Zeus Frickin Crisps........ let's start looking for answers and working together to accomplish a better future and fuck the past, we ain't never going to change it. We can learn from the past but only if we stop the finger pointing and negativity and start looking at what did work.

It's like addiction recovery, if you focus on the reason why you drank/drugged/whatever and not on how you can make a better future, you will forever be locked into relapsing. Find what works in your recovery focus on it, build off of it and realize that you can have a better life because you don't live in the past facing nothing but negativity and guilt.

I believe we are addicted to the negativity and downward spiral because a lot of people just don't want to change, they would rather finger point and blame everyone that doesn't agree with them, than to see they may have to sacrifice, compromise and put forth effort..... it's easier to just keep blaming and finger pointing and wallowing in pity as we decline further and further into the addiction than to face the truth and work our way out.

Must this country truly hit rock bottom before we realize this? In the stages of addiction, we, as a country, aren't even in the precontemplative stage in our addiction to the negativity, we're wallowing in the active/denial/blame stage.

I guess the vast majority would rather stay there than recognize the problem and move forward.

Sorry, pan. It isn't the way that it works. I've shown you that, if you read it and considered it.

There is no way to "come together" when the influential force working on those furthest away from your POV is getting what it is paying for.

Humor me for a sec....it's 1934 and one out of five workers in sunny Cali-forn-eye-A is out of work, and everyone else is struggling with reduced pay, hours, or both.

A familiar face comes along, a man known to have exposed and forced the government and industry to clean up the meatpacking industry, years before. He gets your ear, and your neighbors, and he offers solutions that seem to make sense.

The newspaper owners disagree, and so do the Hollywood studio heads. They know that there is an underlying concern that, based on anecdotal obeservation and pride in the climate and the place, many residents already believe that there is a growing influx of out of state workers and their families, streaming into the state seeking work or just food and shelter.

The studios start making and circulating visual "aids", represented as current photos or newsreels (and the newspapers, too....) depicting "bums" packing railroad freight cars, riding the rails into their state and jumping off to slip into their communities, breeding crime and competing for scarce jobs and county welfare.

The newspapers incessantly remind everyone that the candidate is a socialist which is the same as a comminist and is on record refusing to embrace the sanctity of marriage.

You believe in unity, and you avoid letting your opinion be shaped to where it is nearly indistinguishable from the owner of that newspaper or movie studio's take on things.

Others don't avoid that, pan. If you compromise with them, unite with them, you're doing what the people who pay to have people think and vote just like they do, have paid to influence them to vote for, and taken you part of the way with them.

They won't compromise pan, they never have. So, how and where can you?

We're spending ten times as much as the closest military rival, and an amount equal to all of the rest of the world combined, on our military. I think it starts there....what is the middle way on that issue? Which candidate, besides Ron Paul, has even mentioned a middle way?

What is the middle way on judicial appointments, to the supreme court for example, or on gay rights, or on abortion? Do we make it illegal on odd days?

Can we all agree that the purpose of the voting enforcement section of the DOJ is to oppose restrictive state laws....like new ones requiring official state issued photo ID's?

Maybe it''s just me, pan, but if it's good for General Dynamics or Haliburton, Ruppert Murdoch, Exxon Mobil, Merck, or Council for National Policy, chances are, whatever it is, it ain't so good for me or my family,

If it means no new restrictions on trial lawyers, planned parenthood, union labor organizers, or people who don't believe religion has a role to play in government or in public shcools, chances are I'll be supportive of it....this spirit of unity.

I don't disagree with a word you said.
I will however, say it's futile at best. Look at the millions of people of voting age in this country and look what we're given to choose from: 3 people. THREE! And not one is addressing the negatives in a way that would have us nod and give an emphatic "Yes!"
I touched on it before, but...we as a nation have the habit of blaming one person for the woes and it doesn't work that way. There's an entire machine at work and too many of us are tiny cogs. We don't vote for who equals our visions, we vote for the least evil of the choices given. That just sucks. Where is anyone who doesn't have some huge money bag going to get their voice heard so that those of us who want the choice can take it?
You or I or even Host can't run for president because we're "average Americans". Hell, who here could even run for mayor?
We can join groups, start groups, oppose groups, but for whatever reasons, we either don't or we do and give up.
*sigh* We do what we can with the tools we are given......

Yes. Even then, after trying to fix the problems of today, we're going to run into the problems of tomorrow. It's kind of been that way since, you know, forever.

I agree that the United States is not doing so well in some areas. Its recent military endeavours are questionable at best and if anyone honestly expects positive results from them, well, they'll be disappointed. The conflict in Iraq will never be "won" and I don't think it was ever meant to be.

Same goes for the War on Terror.

And the War on Drugs.

And so on.

Moving right along. Entertainment. Not to be a dick, but the whole John Lennon thing suggests that you might not be trying very hard to find new, exciting music. It's definitely out there. Finding new music is easier than its ever been, thanks to the internet. Myspace and Wikipedia surfing are very useful for this. Looking into local projects is also, of course, a good idea.

And really, what do you expect from TV? The fact that TV is shit should not be news to you. A lot of my friends say things similar to what you've said, then sit down and watch Reality Show X because "OMG IT'S BETTER THAN MOST OF THAT CRAP ON TV, ITS AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE." No, it's not. If you have your own little "exception to the rule", maybe consider the possibility that you aren't as far removed from the consumer horde as you might like to think. We should call that "Lennon Syndrome."

Then the news. I wish we could take a hint from how they did it back in The Day. You know, that time when those in charge of distributing information didn't exploit their position of power. A time when facts were delivered to people and people made up their own minds. A time when simple people weren't distracted by sensational stories about meaningless non-issues. When was that, again?

I'd like to know if you have any specific ideas about how to improve things. Recognizing a problem is the first step to fixing it but I get the feeling that things won't get any better until they get a lot worse. Sadly, electing a Democrat to the White House probably won't do a hell of a lot of good. If anything, it might make things worse. But we won't get into that here.

Even if massive changes were put forward today, I'm not sure it would be enough. You're in a pretty deep hole and a lot of people seem content to keep digging. You've made it through a revolution, a civil war, two world wars, a crippling depression and more. So we'll see. My lifetime should be an interesting one.