are old "historic" cemeteries a waste of space?
 

went to a council meeting last night in town, there was a discussion about a woman who wanted to buy up a piece of an old cemetery that had a tree in it and her yard blah blah blah. people didn't want to because the cemetery had graves of founders of the town, even though they were unmarked and no one knew exactly where they were. the cemetery is all filled up and no one can use it anymore, no new entrants. it got me thinking and brought me to the point of this thread.....

do you think cemeteries are a waste of space? i like parks and open fields and i abhor over development, but if a cemetery is all filled up with graves that are 100 or more years old, and the families of the people are no longer around, should you keep it? if so, why? i would at least keep it a cemetery and bury new people in it, but to have a few acres of land that no one can touch as a memorial to people that no one knows, for "historical records" sake...i just don't know. perhaps i am young and part of the "disposable" mindset, i don't know. i wonder what others think....

I think cemeteries are a waste of land now, but historical ones(old ones) are cool. I have said "Put me in a mausoleum" and would do the same for family members(something about cremation turns me off...well, death turns me off, but it's our one guarantee).
On the other hand, without cemeteries, where would I go for some fun time?:lol:

I'll suppose the two mindsets:

- Fuck them, they're dead, nobody can remember who is there, land is valuable, etc.
- Preserve the dead because they were important 100 years ago, stop trying to build a McDonalds on every square foot, etc.

...

I don't believe in the hocus pocus of putting bodies in the ground for Jeebus.

I guess the best question is:

Can we keep burying everybody and make the planet one huge landfill of caskets and headstones?

How long is long enough for a graveyard?

Wow, what a pain in the ass debate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...q/cemetery.jpg

Look at all the space used up by the cemeteries takes up in Queens NY. It is a considerable amount of space. I'm not familiar with anyone buried at any of these cemetaries, and in fact I lived mear the Mt. Olivet Cemetery in Middle Village for a short time. It's an awful amount of space that is being used up by dead people, who pay no taxes on that property.

just pointing these things out...

George Carlin says that cemeteries and golf courses are the two biggest wastes of land in this country.

Cemeteries are a waste of space directly but I do think they serve a purpose.

I can't pass a big cometary without getting introspective. Looking at the rows and rows makes me realize just how short a time we have before thats all we are good for as well.

I also have a sort of respect for my ancestors/elders. These are the guys who built the city you are in now, they died there, their families put them there to stay. Now things in that area are more built up and land is 'valued' more so they should be moved for a starbucks and a row of brownstones?

Obviously there comes a point where you have to worry about space but I wouldn't call a cometary completely worthless.

This is a tough one with no real answer.


I will make this point tho.

Père Lachaise Cemetery has all these people interred there:

Nadar (Gaspard-Félix Tournachon) , a French photographer, caricaturist, journalist, novelist and balloonist.
Gérard de Nerval — French poet.
Michel Ney — marshal of the French army who fought in the French Revolutionary War and the Napoleonic Wars.
Louis Nicolas Davout — Napoleon's undefeated "Iron Marshal."
Victor Noir — journalist killed by Pierre Napoleon Bonaparte in a dispute over a duel with Paschal Grousset. The tomb, designed by Jules Dalou is notable for the realistic portrayal of the dead Noir, and for the fact that he appears to be at least partially sexually aroused, his large penis pushing his part-unbuttoned fly open. In consequence, Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, and father of neoimpressionism.
Simone Signoret — Academy-award winning French actress.
William Sidney Smith, British admiral of whom Napoleon Bonaparte said, "That man made me miss my destiny".
Gerda Taro — (real name Gerda Pohorylles; 1911 - Spain 1937) was a German war photographer the great love of Robert Capa, also one of the iconographers of the Spanish Civil War. Tomb monument by Alberto Giacometti.
Isaac Titsingh — Dutch surgeon, scholar, VOC trader, ambassador to Qing China and Tokugawa Japan
Alice B. Toklas — American author, partner of Gertrude Stein, Toklas's name and information is etched on the other side of Stein's gravestone in the same sparse style and font. As they were inseparable in life, so too are they in death.
Louis Verneuil — French playwright.
Marie, Countess Walewski — Napoleon's mistress, credited for persuading Napoleon to take important pro-Polish decisions during the Napoleonic Wars. Only her heart is entombed here; her other remains were returned to her native Poland.
Eduard Wiiralt — Estonian artist
Oscar Wilde — Irish novelist, poet and playwright. By tradition, Wilde's admirers kiss the art-deco monument while wearing lipstick.
Richard Wright — African-American author, wrote Native Son and other American classics.
Dominique Vivant, Baron de Denon — French artist, writer, diplomat and archaeologist. Located close to Frederick Chopin's grave.
Nestor Makhno — an anarcho-communist Ukrainian revolutionary
Leo VI Lusignian- last king of Cilician Armenia.
Karel Appel — Dutch painter.


Heres my second point, every cemetary has someone interred there who is as important to someone as the people interred at Père Lachaise are to a lot of people.
I agree with Ustwo tho, cemetaries are a great symbol of the evanescence of life, sometimes I find that frightening, sometimes I find that comforting. When I need to be frightened its nice to walk through and realize that a lot of the crap I am pining away for will ultimately just be left behind. But when I need to be comforted its nice to walk through and look at the headstones, wonder who the people were, wonder how they lived their lives and smile because someone cared about them enough that the though of not being able to go there and visit with them was just unbearable. So they went through the trouble of creating a special place where there is a connection between the living and the dearly departed. Sometimes when I get depressed thats enough right there to lift me out of it.

So if we could find out a way to tax the dead it would be ok then? *snicker*

Interesting food for thought, but theres no real answer I'm afraid. All anyone can do is judge by their own yardstick.

Whatever happened to the saying "Respect the dead"?

I don't believe in wasting the space for my leftovers, and all of the people I know agree. But I don't agree with disturbing historic cemeteries unless there is a pressing need, as may be true for New Orleans' low lying areas.

Taking the OP to the extreme, would anyone allow the least disruption to the Arlington cemetery?

We need to remember, and respect, where we came from.

-Will

GAME OVER.

I don't think that includes the long-since-decimated remains of human beings.

They're not people. Sure, respect the dead, but those are empty vessels, not people. Some may have different religious viewpoints on such things that tie their eternal "soul" (or what have you) to the physical remains... but as far as I'm concerned, it's a husk.

I think we should relocate some cemeteries' contents to areas where the land won't be missed nearly as much, and put a real premium on future lot allocations. The fact of the matter is, we cannot bury everyone, indefinitely. We're going to literally start running out of room soon if we don't start thinking of ways to handle the situation.

As for me, cremation all the way.

I'm not sure how it works in other places but there are 2 different ways I've seen cemetaries work here. The first is when you buy the plot the maintenence fees, property tax, utilities, etc. are included. The other way is in addition to the plot price there is a yearly maintenance fee that is paid by someone or automatic deduction from a bank account for as long as there's someone to pay the bill or funds in the account. Afterwards I guess the load is spread across the remaining "paying customers"?

Both ways there's an organization (I guess it's kind of like a homeowner's association) that invests excess funds and manages the whole deal for a particular cemetary.

The only ones here that don't seem to follow this are the ones attached to churches who are responsible for them and the veteran's cemetaries. I think there are a few state ones maintained as historic places too.

You throw rubbish into landfill sites, then cover them up...
You throw dead people into holes, then cover them up...
Coincidence? I think not.
Cremation is the way to go.
Dig up all the stiffs and burn them, then turn the land into a nature reserve.

I wonder why people think of cemetaries where famous people are buried (or that commemorate great events) are more important than regular cemetaries.

You'll never hear anyone suggesting Westminster Abbey or Arlington be paved over! Why not? They're just a bunch of corpses. Hell, in the case of Westminster or other ancient European cemetaries, they're not even that anymore, they've long since turned to dust in many cases.

No, I see no reason to wreck cemetaries - OK, don't start up any new ones and have people who die future forward be cremated, but cemetaries are cool. Peaceful, they prompt one to think and to remember.

France had a similar issue a couple centuries ago. The result is a large series of tunnels chock full of the bones of thousands upon thousands of people. If you wanna know which one is Unca Johnny, you're SOL.

At any rate, there is a two word answer.....

Soylent Green.

Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!!!

I wanna live in a cometary forever, as stardust.

Religion causes some of us to do some very strange things.

...Not really harmful, but very strange.

Maybe someday the more decorative tombstones will be used as cryptic lawn ornaments. And theirs ghosts won't be displeased.

Maybe after a certain number of years they should be turned over to Archeologists; like in Egypt.

Also, I wonder how hard it is to get zoning for a new cemetary? I imagine it's pretty difficult given competition from more profitible development opportunities, but then the Boomers up next so...

Ahh...a fellow taphophile. :D

You forgot Jim Morrison for god's sake!

I enjoy old cemeteries. I find that the older the better. The headstones are generally very artful and it's interesting to see the dates. Whenever on a road trip, I have to stop at the old cemeteries and take a walk. I find them peaceful.

Now the newer cemeteries with the flat headstones are a waste of space, imo. Well, except for family and friends that want to pay their respect. But if you're going to take up a plot of land, at least offer a statue or an interesting headstone.

I try to imagine their lives. It's fun to look for clues in the surrounding family headstones.

The only thing that they're good for is ease of property maintenance. No flat headstone for me, thank you. I've been a pain in the ass alive, and I'll be a pain in the ass dead. Someone is damn well going to be mowing around me for the next couple of hundred years, at least. :D I fully intend to haunt whoever puts a flat headstone over me. ;)

I think cost is the issue with more elaborate headstones, for the average schmuck.

Corpses are corpses, no matter where they're buried.

Fuck 'em.

EDIT: Not in the literal sense.

We have been building over cemeteries for centuries.

While I believe most current cemeteries should be preserved for the sake of urban and suburban greenspace, I think there is good reason for us all to consider our plans regarding our own death. Continuing to take up the kind of space that existing cemeteries take up isn't sustainable.

That said, I live in an area with a lot of really cool pioneer cemeteries, filled with names anyone who studied the Oregon Trail would know (or anyone who played the game!). I'd like to see them preserved, as many of them are beautiful greenspaces, and of historical value.

My favorite cemetery in Oregon is the Old Scotch Church cemetery, off of Old Scotch Church Rd. n. of Hillsboro, Oregon. If you ever get a chance to visit it, do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Scotch_Church

why must we have cemeteries...why can't we bury old Aunt Edna in the back yard?

Next to the outhouse....

Which is kinda what they did back in the olden days, although maybe not next to an outhouse.
Here in NJ, on US 1 south, is a single grave said to be of a maiden who was buried where she'd watch the river awaiting her fiance's return....It's surrounded by the parking lot of a movie complex; previously there was a flea market there (apparently it was all a farm at one time) and the grave was not allowed to be moved or harmed in any way when the complex took over.
It's kinda creepy that there's a single grave at the edge of a parking lot...
There is also an undisturbed family plot in the Holmdel Arts Center, just off to the side of the Vietnam Memorial Center there and still another off to the side of a local industrial park that won't be disturbed.
NJ is weird....

Uh...ok ;)

I used to think cremation was the thing to do but with my current job I think we should just toss them in a landfill that has gas-to-energy system. Why use fuel to burn them when we can let them decompose to methane gas and then we use the gas to make electricity?

Choices for what to do with the dead have often come down to environment.

Back in the Iron Age for example, in parts of Britain and Europe that had been deforested for agriculture, only people who were high up in society could afford a cremation, as it takes a lot of wood to consume a body completely. Many corpses would be either buried or left out in the open for the elements to claim. Their bones might later be used in ritual.

they're historical at least, and it's not cool to go messing around with decomposing bodies.

Keep the old ones, everyone else should probably be cremated.

There is a cemetary in my home town with witches and the like buried in it. One of the grave stones is coffin shaped and lies on the ground, probably to make sure they wouldn't rise again. Just for good measure they also bolted the ston to the ground using metal straps.

New graves just don't seem to be that funky.

I think I'd rather see cemetaries than developed land with more goddamned tract homes or condos or strip malls on it, 'cause we all know that's what would happen to the land otherwise.

I like the way that you think. :thumbsup:

Hear hear.

My dad lives near one of the oldest cemetaries in Utah, and when I lived with him I would often take walks in the cemetary and ponder over the stones. I enjoyed those walks immensely.

I love visiting older cemetaries, and I'd hate to see them go. As for me personally, I want to be cremated, but I since I'll be dead, I really don't care what my family does with my remains.