Esquire Article: I Think You're Fat
http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?x
The writer and the man he interviews, psychotherapist Brad Blanton, call it Radical Honesty. It's a rehash of just telling people the truth, however brutal it may be. While it may seem like a refreshing idea to be bluntly honest with everybody you come across in all situations, is it really the right way to do things? One can see how easily Radical Honesty can be misconstrued as being an asshole, or worse assholes hiding behind Radical Honesty. Being direct in the advice you give? Sure, be straightforward. Just blurting your mind even at the risk of offending others around you? Not always the appropriate thing to do, methinks. Quote:
|
Awesome. "Fuck You" IS positive communication... if you're an asshole.
|
Good in concept, horrible in practice.
|
Great, so now there's another excuse to be rude.
|
Hahaha... excuses? I think society is looking for excuses to be polite.
Me-me-me strikes again. |
How about being radically honest and admit that there's nothing to gain but smug self-gratification in calling someone fat or any other rude comment that only serves to make you feel better than someone else.
|
Man, I was gonna post this a few weeks ago but never got around to it.
I think it's actually pretty interesting, though moreso as an exercise than a way of life. Being radically honest for a period of time can open the doorway into realizing it's ok to say what you're thinking more often than you think. Quote:
If you haven't actually read the article before responding, please do so. Because, as misguided as this concept may or may not be, it is not about simply being rude, and that is explicitly pointed out later in the article. |
Be honest, but be sincere and not just mean.
|
Honestly?
I'm pissed off because my $60 wireless mouse has a shitton of lag and it's wasting my precious time. I leave it alone for like 10 minutes and I have to either wait 3 minutes for it to work again or I have to unplug it and then plug it in and lose it's ability to use side scrolling and special buttons. It's bad enough my fucking Apple mighty mouse was junk, now Logitech sucks too? Who's dick do I have to suck to get a decent mouse? I don't see rudeness there. It's honest. Yes, I curse without my filters on. And I complain. It's a part of being human. But it's not rude. It's often rude to lie, in fact. When in the article the author tells little 5 year old Allison that the bug is dead, he was being honest with her about something that children should be aware of, in my opinion (and my opinion is often right). The fact that she ran off to complain just shows that her parents don't really know what they're doing. If you're old enough to understand the concept of life you should understand death. Even if you're a theist, which I suspect her parents are. Yep, I'm condescending without my filter, too, but rude? Banton, on the other hand, is just a prick. He's laughing at the times when he says "shit" like he's the 8 year old son of a drunk. He's inconsistent with his own bullshit, and it's apparent that this whole thing is about being allowed to be rude. He needs to take a seminar on how he's an idiot and he's screwing up a good idea. And how he's an alcoholic, and I'm sure very few people he meets respect him at all. I know I don't and I've only read an account of him. I would have approached this thing completely from a different standpoint. What use is there in Radical Honesty? REAL FUCKING CHANGE. That's right, you're honest so you can self examine better and learn where you need honest improvement. If you find you curse too much, maybe it's time to admit that cursing not only makes you sound stupid, but it serves no purpose. Time to stop cursing not only to everyone else, but to yourself. If you find that when you're being radically honest you treat women like shit, well then it's time for you to fix that. You know that women don't deserve to be treated like shit, obviously, so you teach yourself to be honestly respectful. That's the bottom line. This is a tool for self examination and self betterment. |
I remember turning 21 and coming to NYC and sitting with my ball busting friends. They are brutally honest as all the ball busting isn't any good if we're just making things up, it has to be truthful. It taught me to be moreso.
I used to be just a nice guy, not so much any longer. I tend to say things how I see them. Quote:
|
as for telling people they're fat, it needs to be done. Obesity is higher than ever due to a number of reasons and i can't help but feel that the "political correctness" movement and all the daytime tv specials on "fat people have feelings too" have tried to make us tiptoe around the issue.
sorry, I don't believe in catering to the ego of other people if they are my friends or not. I wish more people would call me out for being fat or other people in thier lives for it. (it means I would have been more inclined to think about what I put in my body if someone had called me fat recently) its a variable that people have control over, and if you let them know that they are slacking, then they might feel the need to do something about it. It's their body! their health! they need to take care of it, not have people lie and me like "oooh noo you aren't fat at all! you look good!" its bullshit and I've always hated people who are "polite" and slather the conversations in fake smiles. and people who call other people fat have entitlement to feeling better about themselves because they just told the truth instead of being "polite" which is another social convention of "acceptable lying" maybe its just that my pet peeve is dishonesty. I really can't handle people who lie. this is a funny article to me because I've always been kicking this concept around in my head as "the way to be" and yes, it saves so much time to cut the shit. |
There's a difference between honesty and just pointing out uncomfortable things just to be an asshole... but if it's the truth, where's the beef?
Just because people don't want to own up to things and live a psychologically protected life devoid of confrontation doesn't make the observations less true. So the question becomes: Is it rude to be honest? Only if the person with whom you're speaking isn't comfortable with honesty. Etiquette, as we know it, is based on lies and deception. I'm not sure why that doesn't bother more people. Now, I will keep things to myself if they don't need to be said- but if I feel like saying something, I'm going to say it. Like if someone is wearing something really stupid, I won't say anything- unless I feel like their outfit embarrasses me by association. Like once, a friend of a friend (who I didn't know) showed up dressed like Neo when we met up with him downtown. I said, "hey Neo, can you take off the Matrix jacket," (calling it a "jacket" pissed him off, which wasn't intentional) "because no one is going to be firing any slow-motion bullets at you tonight." (PS this was a few months ago, not like back when the movie was out and popular or anything) It was embarrassing. He looked ludicrous. I've gone through a mild goth phase (more just the clothing, never the piercings or blood play or makeup), and when I dressed that way, I was going to a club of that style. If I went to a trendy club dressed goth, I'd have looked stupid, and vice-versa. I didn't say it just to jab him, I said it because there were implications for his mode of dress. And while my friends and I aren't hanging out downtown "to look cool", there's still a certain level of, "could you please learn to dress yourself so you don't look like you just wandered out of a cosplay convention?" Why should anyone hold their tongue for the sake of someone's feelings when they themselves have to suffer? |
..
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
You know it was funny. As I was writing my above post, I kept thinking to myself that unfiltered, I'm not dissimilar to Analog or Ustwo, only with a hard liberal twist. I wonder if we would all end up fitting into that archetype if we turned off our filters, and I also wonder if, even though both of them take a lot of shit for being so harsh, maybe they're on to something. Now it occurs to me that if I were to adopt a comparative style to analog, I'd probably be banned (which raises other questions).
Analog, what do you think about your own personal philosophy when it comes to harsh truths verses being polite and respectful? I mean I'm not a moderator, and I'm not trying to pass judgment, but I'm sure you must be aware that there is the occasional line walking by many members, even on occasion me. Is it bad because it's close to breaking the rules, or is it good because you're being honest? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Being honest is telling things as they are, but not necessarily the name calling bits, which I get exactly from that article. Yes, the name calling has it's place because the person again was posturing, Boss is a dick, Editor is a dick. How is that expressing honest communication? I'd also add that the "I may be banned because I say this..." is similar posturing. |
When it comes to etiquette, there's what folks in the military call tact. Going by the dictionary, it's defined as, "a keen sense of what to say or do to avoid giving offense; skill in dealing with difficult or delicate situations." More basically, it's the art of getting your point across to somebody who has more stripes than you without losing your own stripes. Radical honest lacks tact and to me, seems designed to piss people off just for the sake of it. How productive can that really be?
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Plus, one thing I was glad that the author of the article carried away from Blanton's ideas was the idea to be honest to children. Telling white lies to kids is terrible. I always inform the parents I sit for that if a child asks me a question, I will not lie. I may tell the child to ask their mom or dad for an answer instead of me, but if a child asks me about death, or where farts come from, or why people don't like President Bush, I'm not going to insult their intelligence by lying to them. That philosophy actually works in my favor as a childcare worker, and makes me popular with parents and children alike. My nickname from my former family was "Smart Lindsay" because the kids knew if they asked me a question, I had a straight (and usually thoughtful) answer for them. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But I can tell you that when I was, my "style" was not always preferred. Lots of people walk the line... the difference is not whether or not you believe you're always on the "right" side of the line, but how others perceive where you are in relation to that line. That's the way it must be, though... we need others to show us where the line really is, because... be it ego, or being "too close"... we can't always see what we're doing by ourselves. I don't think of my posting as disrespectful- just because a person doesn't want to hear the truth, doesn't automatically make it disrespectful. Also, "respect" is not always a black and white issue. Take a person who makes many threads to complain about something terrible, and takes no one's advice, ever, and continues to wonder why they're in a bad situation. At some point, someone has to step in and give some tough love- brutal honesty that's most likely not respectful, but definitely much-needed. It might be disrespectful out of context, but there always comes a time when pleasantries need to be tossed to the wind. Many people see a "grace period" between when the person starts complaining and when it's finally ok to tell someone to knock it the hell off, quit doing what they're doing, and move on- in very definitive, not-so-rosey terms. I, however, go for "tough love" (brutal honesty) as soon as I feel that person is not getting the message. If I swoop in to give someone my REAL $0.02, and others haven't yet given up making the point in a nicer way, then it's perceived as harsh. I am not harsh on purpose. I just tell "the truth"- as I see it- and that's it. When people don't want to hear the truth, it's perceived as harsh. I accept that it's possible to be seen as harsh, but I know that i'm doing right for myself by remaining truthful. I've had some people tell me that I don't have a monopoly on "the truth", but here's the thing: everyone owns the truth. For every person, the truth is theirs. Just like with opinions, everyone has their version of reality. If you don't agree with my take on something, I welcome a conversation about it- but "the truth" will always be true to me, as your version of "the truth" will always be true to you. :) |
To be honest, he lost me when he said that Vanilla Coke was a bad idea.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
can't be quoted enough imho. There are some good sides to this way of living, but the bad outweigh it by a LOT. |
Yes, well said, mixedmedia. Honesty in and of itself isn't of much value. What you say should have a purpose, and one should always realize the power of words.
|
If friends told me I looked fat instead of just hearing it from the bullies in middle and high school, I probably would have thought about it more seriously than if people always told me "no, you're not fat, you carry your weight well," and estimated my weight at 50 pounds under what it is. I'm 70 pounds overweight now and have to work hard to lose weight soon because my blood sugar is tending to get too high and i don't want to end up diabetic.
|
I fully endorse this product and or service.
Really. While I've never been into 'radical honesty', I'm far more likely to tell the truth than most people. This of course makes me an asshole at times, but I've learned to not care all that much. The only person I'm truly radically honest with is my wife which is why we have perhaps the strongest marriage I know of. It started the first month we met and has continued since. That first month had one of the hallmark holidays in it and I knew she was expecting something from her new boyfriend for this made up holiday. Well I got her some candy and when I gave it to her I told her something like 'I got this because I knew you were expecting something for this made up holiday but its the last time.' I kept that promise and never have done anything for any of the Hallmark holidays, nor has she for me. Likewise when she did the first 'does this make me look fat?' question, I told her yes because it did. She did the expected stereotypical girlfriend thing but when I explained that, unlike her friends, I was the only one who was going to be honest about it, she came to her senses and now when she askes me how this or that looks she knows when I say it looks good it does. Then years later when she WAS getting fat, I told her that too. I know this is the horror of horrors to some women out there, but fuck it, if you are fat you are fat. I've know at least one marriage that was bjorked because the husband couldn't tell his wife he was no longer attracted to her phyically and I'll be damned if I can't tell the truth to my wife. Now the wife has become a gym rat, and while my telling her she got fat had little to do with it, real exercise motivation comes from within, shes comfortable with my assessments. Just so you don't think this is a one way mean Mr. Ustwo, she does the same for me, and when my love handles get to big, she lets me know. Personally I'd love a day where everyone were forced to be radically honest, some people really need it. If you don't know you have a problem, and no one has the guts to tell you, how do you know to change? |
Quote:
|
Maybe this was in the article and I missed it, but is it appropriate to tell the truth without being prompted by another to do so? What I mean is, according to Mr Blanton, should you tell your wife she's fat, even if she doesn't ask? There are a few examples in the article where this is done, but where do you draw the line? Should you delve into lengthy rants about people you're speaking with? If I were absolutely honest and brought forward everything I think about people every time I speak with them, I wouldn't have time for anything else.
|
Golden Rule - GO!
|
Quote:
|
I'd assume the sledgehammer-to-the-face conversation approach works well with perfect strangers.
Maybe not so much for people who provide you with a paycheck or sexual benefits. Best friends? Might work for a while, but sometimes we want to be lied to for the comfort factor. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
And perhaps bullshit is the necessary lubricant in our pussy-feelings-Dr.-Phil society. Bullshit makes money. And we all know that money replaced god a long time ago. ... I could almost go out on a branch and say that said bullshit aura prevents fat / ugly / awkward people from committing suicide... but I'll just drop that. ... Darwinian Diatribe: The Guide to Smashing the Candy Coating of Feelings in Others |
Quote:
1. I don't want sunshine blown up my ass, but I also couldn't care less what the guy changing the oil in my car thinks of my appearance. I don't respect his opinion of my appearance and it isn't relevant to the social interaction. His honest assessment of the state of the oil in my car is relevant. I appreciate honest assessments from individuals, but only those domains that are relevant to the social interaction. 2. I don't think that we are conditioned to be deceptive. I also don't think that deception arises out of a desire to shelter our egos (as though all people want to be deceived). I do think that people are often unable to distinguish between honesty and deception. |
Quote:
There are certainly situations and relationships where you should be comfortable with being radically honest, but I can't imagine those situations include me opening my coffee order with a "dear god, aren't you a fat one" directed at the overweight barrista behind the counter or relationships...like say...with my boss, where "radical honesty" would probably be met with "radical reconsideration of my job status." I was brought up to believe that social politeness and such were the grease that kept the gears of society churning away. To be socially superficial is an idea I'm perfectly happy with as it saves me a phenomenal amount of "work" without making me out to be a complete and total asshole. |
If ya don't like being called fat, lose some weight. I'm tired of being nice to society. Yeah sure I'll keep saying you are just big boned while you suffer from heart disease.
|
The problem with radical honesty is that it doesn't do shit for the person.
You're ugly. You're fat. You're XY. What's it do for them? Nothing, except feel worse about something they probably feel bad about already. "Brutal honesty" should only happen when you're offering constructive criticism - where you're actually giving them a suggestion on how to CHANGE said offensive condition. Otherwise, you're just being a smug asshole calling people names. |
I like that a lot of people are boiling down this whole idea into calling people fat, when the guy's intention is constructive and his whole mission is creating communication.
Nowhere in the article, or in the posts that support it, has anyone said they simply want to tell people they're fat. A lot of you are trying to condense this whole idea down into a sound bite, "you're fat", which does not at all represent what the guy in the article was preaching. The whole point of Blanton's idea is that constant, unrestrained honesty opens communication. No one in support of "brutal honesty" has said they just blurt out whatever random thing enters their mind, simply for the sake of saying it. I think some of you are getting carried away with your torch-and-pitch-fork-mob anger. There's a big difference between... "you're dressed like an idiot" vs. "The way you've dressed yourself is ludicrous and I'm embarrassed to be here with you." The first is what many of you seem to be stuck on as an idea- the second is what this thread is actually discussing. The second opens communication. You're expressing your discomfort and its source, in order to be open and to share, rather than bottle up, that which bothers you. And then there's everyone's favorite: "You're fat" vs. "I resent how fat you are, because it makes me uncomfortable." Again, many of you are boiling down statement 2, which is the whole idea of the "brutal honesty", into statement 1, which IS just being an asshole when out of context. The only time it would be IN context is if someone says, "am I fat?" and you simply answer yes, "you're fat"- and then that's not being an asshole, or unleashing your opinion on another just feel better about yourself, they asked and you responded honestly and without deception. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
It's really presumptuous and, yeah, rude to assume that anyone needs your criticism or approval for the way they choose to dress. And I can think of very few instances where the words 'I think you're fat' can be used in a constructive way. Do you suppose people who are fat have failed to notice that they are fat? Do you supppose they are under the impression that it is healthy to be fat? I appreciate that the motivation behind the theory purported in this article is deeper than the notion of 'saying everything that pops into your head.' But, the way I've seen the theory explained here pretty much looks like an attempt to validate being a narcissistic prick who mistakes their notions for honesty. ooh, pardon my brutal honesty there...:p |
I think that his (Blanton's) whole mission is to drink makers mark and sell his book - another addition to the watered down psychology found in the self-help industry. I searched for empirical investigations of his methods using a number of research databases. I found none. I doubt that his actually improve anything. I still don't see how deception of others is necessarily bad for you. Nor do I see how radical honesty necessarily "contribute[s] to other people" as he suggests. How is this not a rehash of "Honesty is the best policy" with some personal anecdotes?
As I said in prior posts, I see no problem with radical honesty in particular contexts. I do agree with Analog, that there is a difference between saying "You're fat" vs. "I resent how fat you are, because it makes me uncomfortable." though I expect that the outcomes of such statements might be the same. I also think that the motives for using radical honesty as described by Blanton might themselves be self-deceptive. I think that a world populated with people who are always radically honest is a fantasy (and wouldn't necessarily be a better world). I also think that he might sell more books if his concept was "super xtreme radical honesty" rather than "radical honesty". |
Quote:
Telling someone what you are feeling with honesty is being assertive. Asserting your own needs and desires into the fold without compromising the relationship. Being an asshole tends to compromise relationships. Why bite your tongue? why withhold your opinion. This is part of what this place is supposed to be, to be honest yet still respectful. IMO some of the discussion in this very thread is just the means and mechanism as to how TFP has lost some of it's edge. In fact it's very much a part of why the Abiline paradox is what it is: Quote:
|
Quote:
The place were we pretend everything is ok, and the person with the bad body oder or awful perfume is never told that they cause gaging? If a habit or action of yours is really annoying people but they are to 'nice' to say, you never change that behavior. I'm all for it. |
Quote:
I've always been told I was too blunt. Am I really? Things are how they are and while some instances may work better with tact, it has always served me well to be blunt and honest. If my wife asks me if her dress makes her look fat.. and it does.. then I tell her yes. She laughs and wears it if she wants to.. she doesn't need my approval for how she looks, she just likes to ask. For people who constantly need approval for their actions they would be much better off taking this sort of stance with themselves first and foremost before they tried to employ it with other people. This isn't just about fat or not, it's about everything you do. "Damn, I did a shitty job at work today" vs, "I'm just tired" or "I'm jaded, I need a vacation" I'd be very interested in seeing how things worked out in society if more people were brutally honest with themselves and with others. I know I prefer it that way. |
Quote:
I think that people should be as honest as they want, but as evidenced in this thread, there will likely be negative consequences depending on the context. Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Now I don't advocate for coddling or lying. I suppose I adhere to a version of the old 'if you can't say something nice' adage. For example, I have a daughter who is fat. Not morbidly obese, but fat. I try to encourage her to eat better and take an interest in her health. She doesn't. I tell her the clothing that I think is most flattering on her, but she wears whatever the hell she wants to wear. And I leave it at that. She knows she is fat and she doesn't need that fact to be pointed out to her anymore than an amputee needs to be told they don't have legs. oh, and the idea of telling someone that their fatness makes you uncomfortable is serving no greater purpose than airing notions you have in your own head that are your own responsibility to deal with. Not the fat person's sitting next to you. |
Radical Honesty must be for entertainment value, like doing your best imitation of Simon Colwell or chef Gordon Ramsay. It has to be, there's just no other way I can justify using it. I went back and read the article again.
Quote:
|
Quote:
There's also a little bit of dishonesty in emulating the author's shock and awe style. I'm honest in my own way without being disrespectful and using language that is if ill repute. |
Quote:
The thing is, that there are too many people who don't think they are fat, or lazy or ignorant. If the subject comes up then I'll say what I want to say. What's the difference in me saying "I think you could lose weight" vs "I think you're fat"? It says the same thing. If the person takes offense towards it, then that's their own problem. People have become too PC and defensive when it comes to their problems and lives and it's created too many problems. As I said, people should take a more honest and blunt approach towards <i>themselves</i> first.. then if it needs to be directed towards others..then so be it. I've never said that a person being fat makes me uncomfortable.. they are fat.. it's their problem.. not mine. I'm just saying if they ask me if they are fat I will tell them they are. An employee asks me what I think of an idea.. I tell them honestly. Alot more seems to get done that way.. whether they call me an asshole or not.. the point was made and the results came. |
If someone told me that they were uncomfortable being seen with me because of something completely superficial, and that person didn't happen to sign my paychecks, i'd tell them to fuck off. If you don't want to be seen with me you can go be seen elsewhere. That would be me being brutally honest. It's one thing to acknowledge the fact that i look like a douchebag, because looking like a douchebag is often at least partly my goal in dressing and/or shaving the way that i do. However, I don't really feel the need to be friends, or really even associate, with people who are so shallow and insecure as to feel so embarrassed by the fact that i look like a douchebag that they don't want to publicly associate with me. Dressing like a douchebag is a nice way to screen those types of people out of my life.
I'm all for honesty when it serves a purpose, and i recognized that the simple fact that i am not really all that representative of the vast majority of people means the situations where i employ honesty might differ from others. That being said, when the actions or appearances of people around me make me uncomfortable, provided the discomfort isn't acute, before i assume that my discomfort is righteous i like to take a moment and question whether my being uncomfortable is the result of me being petty, or the result of something more substantial. If my discomfort is the result of pettiness on my part, than it is my problem, and you don't need to hear about my problem. If my discomfort is the result of something more substantial, than i would probably let you know. |
If someone asks me a direct question, I answer it with complete DIPLOMATIC honesty. If they ask if they look fat (and no one ever has, including my wife), I would tell them that what they were wearing wasn't their most flattering outfit, if it were true. If they didn't look fat, I'd simply tell them "no".
I've made enough money with that philosophy that I'm embarrassed to assign a rough amount. If someone asks me what I think about something, I'll always give them the truth and try to spare their feelings. If all you young ruffians want to live by the rule of constant brutal honest, I'd encourage you never to get into any career anywhere close to sales since you'd be an absolute failure. |
Quote:
Are you suggesting we take the lowest road possible with all people because some people have illusory perceptions about themselves and the image they portray? And for the record, I have never met a fat person who didn't know they were fat. I've met fat people who are comfortable with their image and don't care what other people think, but none who are under the impression that they are anything but fat. And I'm not talking about people who are 20-30pounds 'overweight,' I'm talking about people who are, indeed, fat. And are you suggesting that the only reason someone would be averse to being called fat, especially in public, is because they are not honest with themselves and their fatness? I call bullshit. It is because they are human and everyone experiences some level of distress at having their flaws and weaknesses paraded around by others - it makes them feel separate and estranged, even if just for a moment. You know, empathy is good. We have it for a reason. Quote:
Thinking about this more and more, for me, I think it's coming down to a common theory of mine about 'the cult of self' that seems to be so popular today. And in this instance it can be found in the idea that all of these thoughts and notions and perceptions and snap judgements that are constantly circulating in our heads are always important and meaningful. They're just not. Most of it is just useless bullshit and isn't deserving of the importance we place on it or the energy that is expended to push it out of our mouths. That's what this is coming down to for me. |
I'm a bit like this. To spare someone's feeling, i'll be nice and tell a lie but when i know the person, i'll be as honest as I can while still being friends with them. That's how I want my friends to be with me!
|
Some people are getting very charged up over the idea of telling the truth; it's kind of funny.
I disagree. It's ok though, because my opinion of "brutal honesty" doesn't require anyone's approval on that point. It was just an analogy to help explain the main point, which is that there are many ways to say anything, but the way it's taken by the listener is motivated by your phrasing. Kind of like saying, "those pants aren't very flattering" vs "those pants don't look good on you". They both get across the point that you don't like it and it doesn't look good on the person, but the former is more likely to spare the feelings of the listener. The point of the "brutal honesty" is that you say whichever it is that occurs to you to say. So if you think "those pants don't look good on you", you say THAT instead of re-translating it into something you deem more palatable. I'm sorry it's not being explained in a way that you can understand. Maybe it'd be easier to ask open-ended questions rather than make closed-ended statements of judgment, like calling people narcissistic assholes. You don't indicate a willingness to communicate with us, you indicate a feeling of moral, ethical, or social superiority because you are of the differing opinion that it is more moral, ethical, or socially responsible to filter everything you say. That's fine, but you leave no room for others' opinions, which is what turns conversations into arguments. I dislike that your differing opinion seems to give you a sense of entitlement to call other people narcissistic assholes, just for disagreeing on what you, yourself, called saying the same thing, using "different words". You either aren't seeing the difference in nuance, or don't want to concede that they are, indeed, saying two different things to the listener. The message received may be the same, but the perception of the tone in the message is driven entirely by those "different words"- and the tone can mean everything when the listener is deciding whether or not to be offended/hurt, as in: Your ass is too big for those pants. vs Those pants aren't very flattering. [analog note: this post was messed up due to an accidental mod edit instead of quote, so it's a little out of context and maybe random at times, because things I originally quoted are missing. Oh well, most of you have already read it by now anyway, probably.] |
jazz, don't think all young ruffians favor this radical honesty hoo ha. yeah, it's funny, teehee, but ultimately it doesn't accomplish anything more than the classic method of giving your opinion with tact and consideration.
mm, actually, not done. i apologize in advance if this makes no sense whatsoever, stream of conciousness thing that i'm just getting out there. some people (too lazy to quote) have said that radical honesty is good because people are too concerned with being polite, that it opens communication. in the article he states that it is liberating. ok, that's cool and everything...but why is it liberating? why is it the honesty that is being considered here, and not the peoples' outlooks involved. seriously. like what, are they perfect? what if i'm being "radically honest" when i say that anyone who feels they can dispense their opinions so freely regardless of consequence is selfish and values their own opinion a little too much. why is everyone so critical and judgmental of everyone else? why is there the NEED to say shit like that? you know? why is it necessary. |
Quote:
|
Or even, have just "done the polite thing" for so long that they don't know any differently.
It is no different than breaking out of the mold and doing something differently to spark growth and evolution. |
Quote:
But if someone randomly crosses my path and I dislike some aspect of them, who the hell appointed me as their personal trainer/coach? Since when is it my task to not only judge everyone around me (which is human nature), but to *pronounce* my judgments publicly (which is just plain rude and arrogant, in my "opinion," which I am voicing because this is a public discussion forum)? Sorry, but no one has a corner on "truth." If someone wants your OPINION on truth, fine. They can ask for it, or bring it up in conversation, or post about it on TFP, etc. If not, then fuck off and keep your thoughts to yourself. |
Quote:
Manners are social lubricants. They allow us to tolerate one another with a minimum of friction. I'd wager a substantial amount of money that if someone here practiced "radical honesty" on all their friends, within a year they wouldn't have many friends left. |
I think the discussion here is taking this "radical honesty" to an extreme. I could be wrong, but I don't think the idea is that one should simply run their mouth all the time, any time. However, the idea of "radical honesty" also seems to be that, when faced with being honest or being less so, one should be honest, and fully.
What works for a magazine - an eye-grabbing title such as "I Think You're Fat" - doesn't seem to work as well on discussion forums (surprise, surprise). I think the title has significantly distracted this discussion from the actual content of the article (not to mention that the title, based on what is written in the article, is in no way what "radical honesty" is about). Now, I'm not really for or against this idea of "radical honesty," but I sure find it interesting. What was only briefly touched on in the article - but what I think is of core importance to this discussion - is how this honesty is supposed to be phrased. It is not supposed to be the first wording that comes to mind. The phrasing is supposed to be something that encourages communication, as opposed to simply the statement of opinion. For example, the story in the article where the author tells his friend "I resent you for not inviting me to your wedding (and this is why)." There's a huge difference between saying that and "You should have invited me to your wedding, jerk." It seems to me that discussion here started out quite cynical and hasn't gotten past that. I think there's a lot more to this than simply focusing on people who are looking for excuses to be assholes and run their mouth. Indeed, I think the difference (and the fact the difference has not been recognized in this thread) is seen in the two different phrases which have been used here: "radical honesty" vs "brutal honesty." I don't think, based on the little information available in the article, that they are even remotely the same thing. "Brutal honesty" is, in fact, what I think is being discussed most in this thread, while this concept of "radical honesty" is only being treated as a tangential subject. |
Granted. If that is the case, I don't think radical honesty is being peddled in this thread.
I think the notion of radical honesty should also encompass being honest with yourself and knowing when you needn't open your mouth for the sake of anyone's growth or benefit. |
Quote:
some of it is parodied by Chopper telling people to harden the fuck up. I'm with SM, the arguments of this thread isn't about the gotcha moments of seeing and understanding the middle ground of opening communication but seeing the "I'm fat" or "You're an asshole" extremes and settling into it there. Again, I think that's the part of the edge that has been lost. |
To me this is where radical honesty would come into play and where it wouldn't.
For example. You have an extremely overweight co-worker. Radical honesty wouldn't 'demand' you say: 'I think you are grossly fat.' You have an extremely overweight co-worker who complains women only want to be friends. Radical honesty would be to say: 'Well you might have a chance if you lost 100 pounds and moved out of your parents house.' |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
It doesn't do anyone any good to sit with the "key" information and hold it. Everything that individual opines to just say something like,"You've just not met the right one," is disingenuine. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Lots of people didn't ever learn to use the "I feel..." statements. It just never dawned on them or was not any socialization to learn it. So what seems like common sense, isn't necessarily so common. |
Quote:
I do think being completely honest in the opening is the best way to get your point across. Some people need to be hit by verbal 2*4's now and then to get the point. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
You are 100% correct in that some people would get all defensive and not listen when directly confronted. The question is why? Is it inherent or is it a learned behavior? I think much of it is learned. We as a society are not used to people speaking the whole truth. We expect to be cajoled, and coddled. We 'protest' offensive behavior by rolling our eyes, barely audible grunts, quick stares. Sure that mother might be letter her kid run all over the restaurant screaming, but no one says anything to her, they just give the 'vibe'. We are told if you don't' have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. This is what stifles growth and communication, but we get so offended if someone dares break what is practically a societal taboo of non-confrontation that we don't' know how to deal with it. So lets take an imaginary person that would require you to beat around the bush for a good length of time to get to the real point of 'the reason no one likes to hang out with you is you have bad body oder'. Maybe coming out in telling him he stinks and needs to shower more isn't going to work, but what if everyone said that who was avoiding him? Would he ignore everyone? What if people were used to honesty? This is really an academic exercise, it would take years for a society to switch over to something like this and I can't foresee it happening. I do think it would be a nicer way to live though. |
I understand and agree with you. Up to a point.
I don't see any difference other than spirit in the comments 'you have bad body odor' and 'you stink.' I think if everyone told him the former rather than the latter he would get the point just as effectively and without the mean-spirited jab that serves to invalidate him because he happens to have body odor. Being that it is, indeed, an academic exercise I think a concept like radical honesty should only be implemented in a thoughtful way. Not in a dishonest or passive-aggressive way, but in a way that is meant to be productive and compassionate. I grieve for the lack of compassion that is being imported in with this idea. Very much. |
Quote:
Quote:
Big Rock Candy Mountain click to show |
:lol: I love that song.
|
Quote:
But there comes a time when another person is using you (yes, they are using you) to sound-off on their wants and woes that there's a perfectly legitimate reason to give them some input back. Yes, they may just have wanted a sympathetic ear- and if it happened once or twice, that's what it would be. But people like that are not likely to just say that once or twice, it's a common thread for them. By the time you've heard the same complaint 100 times, I believe any reasonable human being is deserving of weighing in, if only to make their relentless complaining stop. |
*I just realized that I totally fucked-up and edited analog's post #56 instead of quoting it and there's really nothing I can do about it now but apologize to analog, put my dunce cap on and go sit facing the corner.*
I'm sorry, analog. |
Hey, nobody's perfect. Especially Analog. :)
|
Dude, I did that within about 10 seconds of becoming a mod. The buttons really should be farther apart.
|
well, I've done this once before...to shakran.
In that instance he was able to re-post it...don't think that's a possibility this time. :( |
Quote:
Quote:
|
on the esquire piece...
most of what i would have said mm has already said, so i'll just add something from my own experience. when i weighed around 500 lbs, my mother would sometimes try this "radical honesty" shit on me. it would consist of sentences like: "i have had to start therapy in order to help me deal with your weight" and "you used to be a good looking young man--now just look at you." and "i am ashamed to be seen in public with you." and--my favorite--she started clipping articles and photos from newspapers concerning fat people who died and send them to me. the best was a photo of a piano crate containing the earthly remains of a 900 lb guy being lowered into a grave. that one i kept tacked to my refrigerator for a long time after i got it. there really is no way to confuse this kind of "radical honesty" with anything that could possibly be useful for the addresee--i can tell you without any hesitation that all this "radical honesty" did was make maintaining a relationship with her even more difficult than it already was---it was not helpful, it did not inspire any action, it had no bearing on the changes i later implemented that resulted in starting to loose weight. and had it come from anyone else, there would have been no question of maintaining a relationship, in the way that there often is not after you punch someone in the face. because let's be a little honest with ourselves here: such statements are about nothing but the narcissism of the speaker. it is not as though your particular views about questions of body image are strict reproductions of some social norm. and no-one appoints a social norm police. there isnt any norm police. you are not the norm police. and chances are that no-one gives a fuck what you find attractive or not attractive in others. and it is not as though i was able to forget that i weighed 500 lbs--hell, if there was a day when i felt too removed from it, all i needed to do was turn at the wrong time as i was walking by a building or--if i really wanted to know--i could go to a clothing store and try to find something that actually fit. reminders of american body fascism are everywhere all the time, and you have to be blind to not see them (actually that's only sort of true--you have to conform to the requirements as to body type or--and this is far more difficult and something i never managed--be comfortable with yourself and your body weight/type to not see them) at any rate, one thing tht "radical honesty" would enable you to do is to hunt down those folk who might actually be comfortable with themselves and their body type and get yourselves into needless pointless fights with them. that's great idea. i dont suppose dr blanton could have sold a book on radical cloddishness, but that's what he is adocating. "be free--let your inner clod express itself." |
Interesting post, rb, and congratulations on becoming healthier. You're right in that the radical honesty you described above is more about self than the addressed, but I don't know if that's the whole thing. After reading the article I did find that I might coddle people a bit too much. If someone asks my honest opinion, I wouldn't be out of line for giving it to them. Unsolicited, no, but solicited, yes. If someone were overweight and asked my opinion of their health, I wouldn't be doing them any favors by coddling them, and obesity is a disease, of course. I would never dream of going as far as using passive aggressive language towards someone, though. That's not honesty, as honesty would in my mind include necessity. If something isn't necessary to say, then saying it isn't honest to the need to say it (I really hope that makes as much sense to everyone else).
I suspect that Dr. Blanton is punched in the face a lot. |
Quote:
Irregardless, I see that you were able to fix it. Wish I could remember what I wrote, lol. |
So what did motivate you rb?
|
ustwo:
it's kinda complicated to explain here (as most personal life things are when you arent sure about how to present them in this format, you know?)...since you're in chicago and since there's a side of me that's long been curious about meeting you, if you like sometime i'll explain it over a beer. but in writing, here, the ultra-shorthand version my life exploded. i decided to stop drinking alcohol with the athletic committment that i had been. i changed my diet entirely, eliminating all processed foods. when i left the bay area, i got rid of my 98, my ultimate homeboy car. all i set out to do was change things around about how i was living because i was bored with much of it and unhappy about all of it. a couple years later, i started riding a bike, mostly because i met a bunch of folk who rode in philly and it seemed preferable to public transport. and i just kept doing that. i never "went on a diet" or "started an exercise regimen" so now it seems like the weightloss was a huge unintended consequence of other actions. if i had "gone on a diet" or "started exercising" i wouldn't have managed it. |
I remember when this came out in print a few months ago. A good read but it's not exactly going to be my new religion.
|
Cool article, but it doesn't have a "real life" application.
Why? Not everyone is going to react the same way. There is absolutely no reason to start being brutally honest unless everyone is going to take it the same way. If we could "wipe the slate clean," start new with the way society is today, I definitely think we should go with the brutally honest system. But in today's world, it just wouldn't work. It would literally get people killed. Your coworker says, "hey, do you like my new hair?" "no, it looked much better before. In fact, it makes you look down right unattractive right now." The end. You never speak to that coworker again. They might even take it to their boss. You just can't go and do shit like this. It's a fantastic idea if everyone had a level head and could take it without going apeshit. I can see many good relationships that are built on white lies unraveling. Not everything that is built on white lies is bad. |
I just got done watching a TED talk by AJ Jacobs about his book The Year Living Biblically - a friend of mine is reading it, so I though I'd watch. That's how I found the link for this article. I searched TFP because I figured someone was talking about it, and look, quite a few someones have. And I'm happy I took the time to read the whole thing.
I'm not sure being radically honest is an excuse for being rude. There are ways to be direct and honest without being rude. Granted, I am still learning, I have little of the thing called 'tact.' And I agree with Crompsin's point that society is looking for reasons to be polite. The whole movement towards being politically correct is the first thing to come to mind. Nor do I think that being honest is self-gratification. When Jacobs told the old man his poetry was good, who was hurt? The old man is going to send that to people, share, and when someone tells him the truth, how is he going to feel? I see no problem with telling someone they are fat, if they asked. Now, I'm not just going to run around saying rude shit to people, but if you ask my opinion, it's my duty to tell you. Not to make me feel better, but to give you an honest answer. I didn't think on the situation as deeply as Willravel, but what he says makes sense, honestly, with YOURSELF, will lead to better you. But I also think it'll make it easier for you to be honest with others without being rude or condescending. I grow up in the household where honesty was not discussed, it was expected. If someone smelled bad, you told them. If you didn't like what they were doing, you said something. If you felt some type of way about something and didn't say something, it was your fault. People I meet (and am friends with) say that I am blunt, of topic, and often rude, but they know that I am saying what I understand to be the truth and that my goal is not to hurt anyone. And when I am honest with them, they return the favor, I have very few friendships, but the ones I have are built on true communication. These very same people say that I should "think more' before I speak. I change topics instead of saying I'm bored, I talk about sex something like every 8 minutes, and I speak what's on my mind, and don't when there's nothing there. What I found interesting was A.J.'s willingness to be honest in some situations, but not all. I can't help but wonder how we are taught, so quietly, when to join in the social convention of "white lies?" And if it's all born from our desire to be "liked" by those around us. Because, while I am honesty, it's only about 89%* of the time. The other 11%* is ruled by the desire to follow social convention. I agree with Sapiens. Not only is it easiest for me when talking to a family member or friend, but how much worth is there in telling a acquaintance or stranger? People I could care less about get about 9% of the lies I tell. Crompsin, when my best friends or sisters are looking for comfort lies, they don't call me. But I do agree that we are conditioned to be deceptive. QuasiMondo - I wonder if truth is nothing but an opinion, a point of view, in the realm of everyday life. It's not like we have 100s of studies that we can carry around with us and use as proof to back up our understanding of truth. But if we can keep our minds open and can listen to what someone else labels their truth, we open ourselves up to changing our understanding of the topic, no matter what it might be. The truth is not unchanging. Baraka, our words do have power, and everything should have a purpose, but what type of power do lies have? And can that power outweigh the purpose? Analog, I appreciate your post (#40) because you saw what I did, and that's what I try to do. Not always I am I given the opportunity to make it to "statement 2' but when I do a pretty good conversation usually follows. I think there is a difference between your examples. 'Your's dressed like an idiot' calls the other person out and makes them feel some type of way. While 'The way you've dressed yourself is ludicrous and I'm embarrassed to be here with you' focuses on the speaker and allows the other person a change to understand where you are coming from. It also allows for a conversation that is born from yelling. Ustwo, (post 45) LOL, that is the world we are living in. Maybe that's why Blanton wrote his book. Mixedmedia - "Most of it is just useless bullshit and isn't deserving of the importance we place on it or the energy that is expended to push it out of our mouths." That's how I feel about lies, in all sizes, and beating around the bush. It's too much energy. If I ask you how I did, don't waste time on the "compliment sandwich;" I am grateful for the things I did 'well" but I need to know what you think can be done better, I'm asking for a reason. If we are discussing something, I want to know what you really think, not what you think I want to hear, or you agreeing with me because it's easy. These are some of the things I were I think brutal, radical, blunt honesty needs to be practiced. After this, I might have been sold. I'm going to find a copy of his book Radical Honesty. While I might agree to give up my 11%* of lies, I'm sure I'll learn something. *numbers were made up of the top of my head, and are as close to the truth as I can see. **excuse me for not quoting people, but i'm lazy. |
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:39 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project