Work-obsessed
 

I was prompted to write this after reading Cavi Mike’s thread about money here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=123904.

What is our obsession with work? I hear people who brag about working 50, 60, 70, even 80 hours a week. They brag not because they’re proud, they brag because they’re trying to one-up someone else who is talking about a difficult job. We tie our identities into what we do for a living. We say things like, “I’m a technician” or, “I’m an accountant” or, “I’m a salesperson”. Our definitions of who we are are what we do. When we meet a new person, we invariably ask, “So, what do you do for a living?” We are consumed by our jobs and our careers. We put up with behaviors from our co-workers and superiors that we would never tolerate from friends and use the excuse, “Well, they pay my salary,” to justify our subjugation, yet grumble every moment we have away from the workplace, engaging in the afore-mentioned “Oh, yeah, well where I work…” game with our friends and families. We view others who don’t work as much as us with a certain level of disdain and those who don’t work at all with a level of contempt on par with our contempt for thieves.

We carry our cell phones and on our time off are expected to take calls from work to discuss work. We receive emails from work on our time off and are expected to respond to those emails on our time off. We say, “Well, I’m a salaried employee so I guess they can expect this from me.” We martyr ourselves to our jobs in the hopes that someone will recognize us for our unflagging devotion to our work, yet that recognition never comes. Still, we continue to sacrifice in the hopes that one day….

Taking time off for illness or recuperation is viewed as a weakness. If we become ill ourselves, we fear losing our jobs so we continue to work even at the risk of infecting others or worsening our own condition. When a family member is seriously ill or dying, we feel guilty for leaving work behind to be with them and return to our jobs 2 days after losing a spouse and are expected to do our jobs as if nothing has happened. No one wants to see or feel your grief at the risk of making them uncomfortable.

We expect stores to be open on holidays so if we forget an item, we can make that quick trip to the store. We seem to forget that someone will have to give up that holiday so we can buy the cranberry sauce we forgot. Why did we forget the cranberry sauce? We were so consumed with work we forgot to get it on the way home from work. We have no empathy for the employee working at the store on these holidays yet would be furious if asked to give up the same holiday for our boss.

We suffer from stresses, anxieties, rages, depressions and myriad other illnesses and conditions. We figure the best way to deal with this is to immerse ourselves in our work, never wondering if our obsession with overworking ourselves might be the cause.



Why? Why don't we learn to relax a little?

mmm I was one of those people that lived for work...

I'm finding working for myself to be far more enjoyable these days, instead of working for someone else. I was definitely tired of working with walking pneumonia, bhronchitis, and being on call 24-7-365. I make less than 1/3 now than what I did working like that, but I'm a hell of a lot better both physically and mentally than I was then. That is worth doing this for, even if money is insanely tight. More time with my daughter, now that in itself, is priceless beyond measure.

While I'm a workaholic, I do a pretty good job of seperating things. When I go home.. I'm home. I don't answer any calls from clients or assoicates unless they leave a panicked voicemail.

I think the main reason we identify with our work and money is because that's all we see in media. Status, money and power make the "elite" who they are. People all want to be secure and elite in some sense and this is just a natural progression.

The other main issue is that corporations have lost any responsibility to the human factor and we combat that with making sure we aren't on the cutting block by taking time off or getting sick. I say.. the company will always put money over the person.. so the person should take a step back from his/her loyalty to that company and.. chill the fuck out.

Taking work seriously is like buying cheap toilet paper:

Sure... you can do it, but it only puts you closer to grasping shit.

Materialism is the new religion. The corporation is the new Church complete with hierarchical power structures. As with most religions, people are incredibly motivated by it and think anyone who doesn't believe in it should. The richest are glorified, government exists to serve them. Used to be we called them robber barons and passed laws against their consolidation of power, now we just want to be like them. And as the competition for money gets ever more intense, the people who don't want to have any part of it end up getting dragged along because we still have to pay for stuff to survive.

(destroys an Ikea for n0nsensical)

I think I'm the antithesis of workaholic. I'm sort of j/k... but sometimes I think "where have I failed" since I have a 9-5 "job" that I mostly forget about when I get home, never take calls or emails unless I'm actually in my office, but I get paid fairly/well above average considering my experience/age and I enjoy the technical/professional challenges when I'm doing my work and I get a lot of positive reinforcement about how well I do the "job"; now I'm VP of Engineering and my primary motivation is how to have more time for my wife & kids and get more involved in fishing and racing my car.

We have a friend in Chicago who works very long hours. He called us on a Friday night once at 10:30pm to tell us that he wouldn't be able to make it to a dinner we had planned because he was working. He didn't leave his office until after 1 and then even went in on Saturday at 10 am. We would watch movies, and he would read emails on his blackberry, then respond to them. He would then sometimes leave at 9 at night to go back to work to respond to a phone call. We asked him once how in the hell he did this and he said, "They pay me a hell of a lot of money to be available at all times." He then later admitted that he never got to enjoy the money he made because he was always at work. He joked that he'd have a hell of a retirement though but would then say that he probably wouldn't live to enjoy it because of work stress.

This used to be part of the American Dream. Now, it's becoming an increasingly unreachable pipe dream. Not because it's not doable, but because people refuse to take a cut in pay to realize it.

Years ago, I was an Network admin at a brokerage firm on wall street and got paid an obscene amount of money... this was before the days of blackberries/cheap cell phones etc - I had a pager that went off frequently... I worked 20 hours a day 7 days a week - -networks weren't running - brokers would hemmorage cash and that was never a good thing for anyone... I worked sick - there were days where I would take a car service home, have themw ait while I took a shower and got dressed and went back to work (this was the days when suits and heels were expected out of everyone, even IT) It was a tough gig and I loved the energy, loved the money though I think most of it went to rent because god knows I don't have it now.

I left that job for reasons I don't remember and make considerably less but still am on call 24 hours a day - and get called at all hours... I've had plans cancelled because of a work crisis and vacations rescheduled because of projects... theoretically it's just a computer it's important to those using it and the equipment is more important than the person running it.

This is gonna sound pathetic but it's a realization i've had over the past few years - i have my career - that's about it... I'm not fond of my family and they don't like me all that much - my career is who and what I am... so I don't mind giving it all i can... I don't get back what I give sometimes - though i get a paycheck so that's something... but I've given lots elsewhere and dont' get back there either... I like what I do for a living so i'm ok with that...

The only time I had that kind of crazy-ass work schedule was when I was a high school teacher (and was NOT getting paid enough to be working so much overtime, not that they called it that anyway). There was just no choice. The work had to get done, lessons planned, papers graded, committees attended. Even at my most efficient pace, I still slept 4-5 hours a night and had no social life. I did it for a couple of years and it worked because I was a single, but after that I said this was not the kind of life I wanted. Ever.

Off I went to grad school, where I have been more or less grateful for the perpetual student lifestyle for the last 4 years. :) I don't make much money at all, but it pays the bills and I'm not in debt, and I have the time I want to be with my husband, and eventually, our children. And for that I'm quite happy. When I'm done, I'll look for a 40 hour a week job, less if possible, because I really do strongly dislike working (even if I enjoy the job). I find no identity in what I do to pay the bills... quite the opposite. I hope that never changes, for me.

I have to say, though, that this attitude of competing over how many hours you worked, how few vacation days you took, etc etc... seems rather American in many ways. In Europe, at least here in Iceland, the government REQUIRES 24 days minimum vacation (24!!), and after some years, many people get up to 7 weeks vacation a year. All paid. Not to mention the 9 months' shared parental leave after a child is born. Quality of life is different here... people like their work, but they're not living to work. They live for those 7 weeks off each year they get to vacation, relax, and shut off the phone and e-mail. So that's one bene to living in this place. Too bad America can't see things the same way...

I don't work like that anymore.

After 9/11 I stopped that kind of madness. It wasn't an over night thing, but I slowly transferred my duties and did what I was supposed to do which was manage people and their tasks.

Once I got laid off it even made it easier to not start it up again at the next company. It doesn't mean that I don't work hard. Shit I get more accomplished in the 8 hours I am working than others who fuck around doing what have you chatting, surfing, personal phone calls.

No, I get my work done and then I stop. It doesnt' mean that I don't work until late hours from time to time. It is due to deadlines and getting into a groove or muse that requires me to continue to ride it out.

It will be there tomorrow. There will also be more work that crops up over night. I'll meet up with it when I'm ready.

This is unfortunately the situation I find myself in at the moment. I'm an employee in a company that is extremely performance-oriented. What this means is that if you don't make the sacrifices, put in the (unpaid) overtime and break your back trying to satisfy the client, you won't be recognized at all. Those who choose to do only the necessary and try to fly below the radar are seen as "dead wood", or "not adding any value". Utter bullshit if you ask me.

I hate the situation I'm in. I'm not getting paid enough money for the work I put in, and it pisses me off everyday. Guys who do less work and are responsible for less are getting the same paycheck I am. And how do I rectify that? By working even harder and studying while I'm working full-time in order to be seen as a "performer".

Someone once asked me: Do you want to retire working for someone else?

My then knee-jerk reaction was to say no, I want to be my own boss. Be independent and what not. But now I'm not so sure. It'll take some more thought I guess.

A year ago, I finally quit the job I hated beyond measure because I had been hired as a nanny somewhere else. I wasn't sure how I was going to make out financially, but I decided just to do it, as I was completely miserable, working almost 40 hours a week and a totally bizarre schedule with no routine. Best thing I ever did.

Jumping ship and becoming a nanny opened a huge door for me--now I am more or less self-employed. I now have "clients". I make as much money as I made at my horrible job, but I now have control over my routine and schedule, plus I get to do a job I truly enjoy, and still have time for school. I work enough to pay my bills and have some left over. Just enough :)

I'm not interested in working myself to the bone, or working at a job I hate. It tore me up, and wasn't worth it. I worked at a drug and alcohol rehab, yet I found myself compelled to drink when I came home because my work situation was so horrible and stressful (horrible coworkers, horrible supervisors). This is much better.

My dad used to be a workaholic (high school principal) when I was younger, but I think it was mostly because his best friends were also his work buddies. As he's gotten older and moved on to different jobs, he started spending a lot more time at home and a lot less time volunteering to work ball games or be on committees. And good luck trying to get ahold of him in July if you want to talk about something work-related; unless it's an emergency, he is indisposed. He's a pretty good example of how to juggle work and home life; if it's an emergency, he'll respond, but he does not check his email at home and he only occasionally does work outside of his office. Of course, by now he's earned it, haha.

Everyone I know in network admin/engineering has left or is actively trying to leave.

You need to ask yourself one thing:

Out of all the money the company makes and distributes to its executives and other cushy jobs (such as software engineers like me, etc), why don't they just hire a night shift network admin? Or try any number of solutions that would allow you to lead a normal life?

Simple: they don't care about you. Get out while you still can! I helped one of my NE friends get into development and he seems to be much happier.

I can't comment on this right now because I have to get ready to go to work. Let me think on this and get back to you when I can.

I can't relax because the moment I do relax is the moment somebody's ready to take my job. My job is important because it's my sole source of income. My income is important because it's how I maintain my standard of living. My standard of living is important because it's what makes me happy.

The reality is that all a person has in this life is their career. You're not going to be recognized as being a good person, but you'll be recognized if you're one helluva investment banker.

I view work as slavery out of necessity.

The movie "The Matrix" was a good metaphor.
We're all living/breathing batteries for these corporations, they use us up, we go home, we recharge, they use us up some more, repeat ad nauseum.

Money is the tie that binds.

it's open source slavery, we're allowed to seek a new headmaster at our own "free will" but the thing that never changes is that we're required to have these headmasters unless we want to lose access to things like stability, showers, a place to sleep, your car, the gas that goes in your car, your "social network"--Cell Phones, Internet, and so on. It all runs on money.

to quote fight club, the things you own wind up owning you. You have this sense of pride to maintain, a standard of living, and as it climbs, you jump through the hoops to make it happen. a trailer park, an apartment, a rental house, a mortgaged house, a mansion, a complex.

I personally don't like being associated with my job, these job titles are faceless, no personality. The person you see as a cashier at wal-mart will be known as "a cashier at wal-mart" in your mind, the human interaction is forced and minimal. You take your stuff without knowing thier name, who they are, or what they'd rather be doing instead of helping you get checked out.


i dunno, I too, have to go check in with my overlord/headmaster soon. To earn more money, to give it away again.

We "purchase" money with our mortality, we purchase our chains with our money.

I think you need to spend time around some different people, if this is really how you think...

Famous people are famous for their careers, and not really for anything else. I don't know what kind of different people you have in mind.

Why does one need to be famous?

Since you and I never met when you were here, I cannot claim to be this guy. But we sound a lot alike. I am constantly available to my clients. It is the norm. The very structure of my business dictates that I be available should someone need something last minute. I would be embarrassed to admit how much I make.

That said, I am sure that many people notice how often I am on TFP. And that I travel extensively. I often read threads while on the phone with clients. I find ways to enjoy life. I saw Max's first real steps and have been to about 75% of his doctor's appointments in his entire 19-month life. I made phone calls in the delivery room the day he was born.

Appearances are of singular importance. The appearance of working harder than your competetion means that you do - whether it's true or not. A few well-timed phone calls and emails give the appearance that I am constantly working. Most of my friends believe it's true, but there are downsides. I am at the office 11 hours a day, if I'm in town. I haven't had a real vacation since my honeymoon. Then again, I'm going to Napa on Monday with my wife for 3 days for a company outing that doesn't count as vacation, but we're staying at a resort and hanging out the entire time. Work will be done, but fun will be had.

Smoke and mirrors are wonderful things.

These are all amazing replies and stories being shared here.

What I'm getting is: A lot of you are either deciding that you'd rather spend your time doing something you really enjoy even if it's for less money or you saying that you find ways to make the time you spend at work more enjoyable.

Do you think this is mostly indicative of the kind of person who would be a member on TFP or do you think the paradigm for all of us is starting to change? With our constant connectivity, I envision a time when all of us are on the clock at all times, though not necessarily spending 9 hours a day in an office.

Oddly, most of the replies here are from what we might call white-collar workers. I wonder if the same is true for the blue-collar workers....

Because attention is craved. And so is admiration, and all of the fringe benefits that come along with it.

Okay, I'll bite. By who?

By people who have become famous, and by those who have seen what fame brings them.

If people didn't want to become famous, Hollywood wouldn't be what it is, no?

Haha, no, Hollywood wouldn't be the disaster that it is. Fame and fortune do not correlate with happiness.

But it brings forth that image of happiness and the good life. Beautiful women, endless parties, fast cars, big houses on hills, paparazzi (if you can tolerate them). That image is so powerful that when we find out that a successful actor like Owen Wilson tried to commit suicide, we're befuddled at what he could be so depressed about. Everybody knows Hollywood is a sham, but they'll flock to it like moths to bug zappers.

just look at the ghetto kids that think they are gonna be the next 50cent or old dirty bastard

I spent 20 years of my life as a 12 hour/day, 6 days/week, self-employed person. Then, I got a bit burnt out on what my specialty was, and we were tired of living in the big city, so we sold the house, sold the business and moved to a quieter life.

So far, I'm finding that 40 hours/week is pretty much a snap. I enjoy the time just being able to sit on the porch and enjoy the quiet or tinker in the garage. The only catch is that I'm not making nearly as much as I did for myself. I do however, now have insurance that I'm not paying an arm and a leg for, and I have enough free time to do work on the side.

If I get the job I'm aiming for, I'll probably drop down to part time where I'm at and take the new job at the same time. It'll be a bitch working them both, but unfortunately we need the income badly. But, it won't be forever, so I'll just adjust my mindset to get through it.

because people want the payment of their mortality to mean something.

here lies XYZ, he paid more than you to get here. Be like him.

A long time ago I decided that I wasn't work in a field that didn't require me to work insane hours. So I decided to be in the restaurant industry.

I made a fuckin' mistake.


I found myself going to work on my day off to work so I didn't have as much to do when I actually had to be there. I've dealt with the most retarded employees you could imagine. Never become a restaurant manager. EVER!!!. Seven ten hour days in a row. And then you still have people calling you when you aren't actually at work. It's just food. You wouldn't think it was that much work. Get some people to cook it. Get a second group of people to hand to the people that wanted it. Take their money. Kick 'em out. Yeah, fuck that shit.




I still love my job though.

Okay, I wasn't being clear. I know why a lot of average people seek fame and attention. What I am trying to get at is why *you* seek fame. Is it for the same reason?

And if so, what I was saying is that it might do you some good to hang out with people who don't give a shit about fame. Because living to be famous, in my mind, is pretty damn worthless. But that's just my opinion.

Plenty of people are recognized for "doing good," not just their "career" and how much money they have. And even if they're not recognized, why does it matter? We're all dust, in the end. Why not become well-known for something that will last and help people, instead of just accumulating wealth and dying with a bunch of toys?

Back in high school when I'd hear all sorts of wisdom like "love what you do," and "make your passion into your job," I figured.... fine. Sounds easy. I'll get a degree in music. I was too young to really understand what it meant to love your work.

Music as a career is a funny thing when you're making the transition from something you were talented at, as many are, to something you have to find a job and eventually make a career in. Not a lot of students understand this and, as with other fields, many dropout and I've certainly lost touch with many of my peers as I reach the end of my twenties. There are some people who, when I look around me, I know won't be in music in 5 years. Constant discouragement is something we all have to face because there are just too many of us.

This is why it's important to put in the time, but I don't see throwing yourself into a music career as "workaholism." The fruits we're after aren't for the most part monetary. The vast majority are looking for something else. For some, it's to play often enough and with the "right people," because they just love to play. For some, it's to tour around the world, and for some it's because they want to discover what is possible.

So, you see, there are some fields where there is a very noble humanistic goal behind the increase of work hours. Certainly in arts, sciences, humanities.

That's quite the paradox, Abaya. How can somebody have long lasting recognition without being famous?

It's not that I spend every waking moment chasing fame. I simply understand that the type of recognition that survives long after you're dead and gone depends on your career and what you did with it, not you as the person you are. The only other way one becomes famous without using their careers to acquire that fame is to become a criminal, but then it's not fame it's just notoriety. It's how this society works. Any recognition you get outside of that is simply the 15-minute variety the late Andy Warhol used to speak of.

That's not what I meant, QuasiMondo. What I meant was that one can have recognition without using one's career as a means of achieving that. For me personally, a career pays the bills... sure, would be nice to have a semi-enjoyable career, but the point of my life is to get off work and relax, go hiking, practice my photography, help people out, go on vacation, do nothing, sleep. I find no solace or identity in work, nor do I ever want or hope to achieve fame through it. It's something I have to do, but definitely not something I particularly want to do.

Now, for explanation's sake (because these things will probably never happen! lol, but I can try), let's say that while I'm developing my photography hobby, I get recognition for my portfolio of pictures. Or let's say I'm doing volunteer work and get an award or something, for contributing X number of hours, or making a real difference in the community. Maybe I climb X number of mountains on X continent and there's a newspaper article about that, etc.

I'm just citing examples of "fame" without anything related to work/career. If anything, that's the kind of "fame" I'm interested in... something resulting from what I'm doing in my free time, not getting paid to do (in fact, probably having to pay to *do* it). These are really basic examples, but you get the idea. The less I work (beyond a minimum level of income, to allow me to do these things on the side), the more I can do cool stuff like that... not for the fame (though fine if it happens), but because I love to do it, and that's the sole reason for doing anything in life... other than work.

A few folks are lucky enough to love what they do for a living... I hope I can join them, someday, but I'm not holding my breath. I learned a long time ago that I'm not easily satisfied by anything, and I get bored quickly. I'll be one of those 7-10 career changes in my life people, which is fine for me. My achievement lies elsewhere. :)

good bearing and outlook on the ideas.

I used to love what I do, I got paid to work on sytems and networks I could never afford doing something that I really loved. Somewhere something shifted in the company and soon that turned into actual deliverables, numbers, and statistics. It eventually lost its luster and eventually became a job, which eventually turned into a career.

Peer review noteriety is best abaya. I agree with that. Whatever those circles are be it community you live in, volunteer organization, career/trade organization.

some people get more caught up into it all and it becomes their focus.

I'm definitely not into the page six variety of it all.

Funny that you say this, Cyn, because one of the major reasons I do not want to go into academia is that they turned peer-review notoriety into an evil, evil thing. Due to the publish or perish mentality, academics are forced to gain "fame" (a.k.a tenure) through publishing a certain number of peer-reviewed journal articles every year, presenting at conferences, etc... and if they don't make the cut, they don't get tenure, and they have to move to another university (if they can get re-hired). The cycle is endless... one big fat Sisyphean clusterfuck, if you ask me, at least until you finally succeed in getting tenure. Not my idea of fun, and that's why I am not going to make academia my career. It's one thing to get notoriety while you're doing what you love, but to be *forced* to get it, in order to do the thing you love... no way, man. Not my kind of living. As you say, though, some people get completely sucked into that, and they usually turn into the shittiest professors who are the most out of touch with reality (I've known a few).

Hell, massage therapy is the next potential career I can imagine tackling. ;) I have a whole bunch of careers I'd like to try in this lifetime... as I said, I get bored quickly. :D

Your career is your public face. Without it, you're just...anonymous.

Unless that's what you prefer.

so people who aren't in the workforce are anonymous?

I had a conversation recently with the wife of a colleague who's now a stay at home mom - and in her head she knows that the mom thing is important but she does feel rather anonymous without her career...

People do feel that way - doesn't make it true but it's how some people feel

I don't look directly at homeless people if I can help it.

/remembers he's married to a stay-at-home mom and calls the florist

Only if you make it that way. I don't see it that way at all... hence my examples of gaining notoriety for non-work related activities. What did you think of those?

Additionally, is there anything really wrong with being anonymous? The opposite of that would be an attention whore, so given a choice, I suppose I'd take anonymous. :) But as I said, I don't think life is about work vs. anonymity. All my identity (public and private) exists outside of my work, so I don't feel anonymous in any way... I just don't need my career to give my life validity.

Besides, what happens if you depend on your work for your self-image and sense of worth? It owns you. Everything must be sacrificed to the worship of that which will give you validity and recognition. Time, relationships, hobbies, even your sense of self. Hence why JJ began this thread, I believe. I'm not interested in being owned by anything, frankly, let alone a job.

Sorry to be frank, but that's your problem, not the homeless person's.

I can agree with that. Feelings are always valid. But that doesn't make them healthy or good. Once again, I think that's what JJ is trying to get at, here.

ayap i get that part of how you feel inside, but I guess that's what I'm curious about, what is your opinion of someone that isn't in the workforce or career? (not you mal but in general to the convo.)

Well, my opinion is that they're human... a person, after all. Someone with their own history and issues and life story to tell. I don't see much difference between sitting down with a homeless person to hear about how they ended up in that place, and sitting down with a CEO (if she or he has the time to pay you any attention) and asking about his life story. And I can almost guarantee you I'd be more interested in the homeless person's. ;)

One thing I forgot to cite in my examples of notoriety-without-a-career: blogging. YouTube. The internets in general. As long as you can afford an internet connection (or you can find a place where it's free, like a library), you can become far more famous than most successful business people ever do. I think we're all well aware of that. :)

always the sociologist :P Rúsínan í pylsuendanum!

(that's the raisin at the end of the weiner! for you non-icelanders)

To be equally frank, my problem actually is that you don't get my joke.

To be serious, people have always been remembered by what they have accomplished in life. The easiest way to do that work, whatever that may be. Some people are remember for siring someone who did something in their career, but let's face it: historical figures are generally remembered for what they did, whether it was President, king, inventor, executioner or salesman. Your career is generally the mark on the world that you can control. You can't control what your children will do, and they make their own marks.

Someone's been reading Iceland Review, eh? :) BTW, how does that make me a "sociologist?" :) (I'm supposed to be an anthropologist, anyway... not that I put much stock in that title.) Is it "sociological" to see people as... well, people?

I've been work obsessed for so long... it's such a part of who I am - I am my career... that I have a tough time understanding people who don't feel that way... I really don't get it- and perhaps it's because they're not doing something they enjoy or what...

There's a quote from a television show about alcoholism - where the character, who was an alcoholic, mused that he didn't understand how people could leave half a glass of wine on the table, or how they couldn't not finish an entire bottle of scotch, basically drink until you were drunk... I tend to feel that way - except not with booze but with work... I don't understand how people can leave with work still to be done... and not enjoy it...

What sign was there that it was a joke?... :confused: I consider most things serious until proven humorous, at least in writing. :) (emoticons help)
I'm not thinking of children at all. I'm thinking... why is your career the only thing that you can "control," in terms of making a mark? Is your job description going on your tombstone?

In my case, I feel a great deal of control about other things making a mark, far more than my career. Photography, writing, my desire to volunteer, learning languages, traveling, being an activist, etc. My career controls *me*, if there's any controlling going on. I am a slave to that paycheck, since those hours I am supposed to be working, are not being spent on all the other things that I would rather be doing.

Why is it so difficult to accept that identity does not *have* to be tied to one's career, and that it is in fact often unhealthy to live that way... as JJ pointed out in the OP?

No, for me, it's because I enjoy too many things to be tied down to one activity for X hours a week, X weeks a year, X years of my life. It's like a prison sentence, to me. If my life plays out the way I imagine (haha), I'll be changing jobs/careers every 5-10 years, if not more often, because there are just so many things I want to do, to try, to master... and then to move on to the next new thing. That's what I truly *enjoy* doing... and that's why I have no identity in any one job. Too limiting.

It's for the same reason that there are five countries and language between me and ktspktsp, and why I enjoy the idea of living in many different places, our kids speaking multiple languages, etc. Living in one place for my whole life, speaking one language, being with someone from my own culture... for me personally, I would go out of my mind with boredom. The world is too big, life is too short, to put all my identity in one basket. But maybe that's just me. ;)

I think they're great topics for eulogies and obituraries, and that's really about it, unless any one of those activities becomes something you do full-time.

There's nothing wrong with it, but it's going to be seen in the same light as somebody who doesn't want a girlfriend or get married and start a family. It seems shallow, but it is what it is

I'm not going to feel sad for them over it because I think it's a fair trade-off. In the end, if they didn't feel that their sacrifice was worth it to achieve and maintain the lifestyle granted by your career, they'd be reconsidering their career options.

Figuratively speaking, it is.

How is that any different from work notoriety? You die, your 40 years spent with the company are mentioned, you get a gold star in your obituary... then what? How many people are *really* remembered for their jobs, in the end? Other than maybe Albert Einstein and some famous scientists... but most of us are a lot more anonymous to the world than we'd like to think, outside of our fields.
Huh? How is not wanting to be an attention whore the same as not wanting to be married and have a family? The logic doesn't flow with me, here...
Now this, I can agree with. I don't necessarily feel sad for those people... they ought to have known what they were getting into, and I hope it made them happy. The only thing I dislike is when people do lead lives like that, and bitch about it all the time, or get to the end of their life and regret all they didn't do because they spent so much time on their career. I have no time for that kind of bullshit. They should have reconsidered their career "options" (life priorities, really) a long time ago. You only get one life, after all.

Figuratively speaking... where? Hell, if it did go on your tombstone, I'd understand the whole notion a lot better. But most people get a little paragraph in the local newspaper, that's about it. Maybe something bigger if you were an American president, or CEO of some big company, or particularly if you did something unethical and then killed yourself later (drama always goes down well in the history books). Otherwise, we're all dust, out in the recycling with yesterday's paper.

Then why do we ask kids "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

And to backtrack...
We're obviously talking different things here. I'm talking about not wanting to have a career that defines who you are in society, not necessarily be famous.

I dunno... it's fuckin' annoying, if you ask me, and I hope I never bug my children with that question. I also hate the grown-up equivalent, "Whaddaya gonna do when you graduate?" (I got it with my high school diploma, BA, MA, and now my PhD.) "Why do you care?!" People like to make polite conversation, that's about the only reason I can think of.

When I am dead I will be dead - I really dont care if I am remembered or not - i'll be dead so what's it to me?

What matters is what happens when I'm here - I know that my work obsession has made the work lives around me better because of my efforts... so while that's a success..

there's a poem that's attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson (that he really didn't write)

To laugh often and much;
To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children;
To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends;
To appreciate beauty;
To find the best in others;
To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch
or a redeemed social condition;
To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived;
This is to have succeeded.

Most every single one of those things - except for the garden patch or healthy child - I can apply to my work life - so that would mean my life was a success - because I have worked...

Everyone is different... doesnt make their choices wrong... or right...

Mal, I can agree with that. If your work life is the actual means by which you do make a lasting difference in people's lives, then by all means, I can see why you enjoy it so much... nothing hard to understand about that. (I'll still remember you more for those 60 miles you walked in 3 days for a good cause, though... that was freaking awesome.) :thumbsup:

lasting difference in people's lives? not so much... but most people are about instant gratification... I can fix an immediate problem and let them continue to do their job and go on about their lives.

I can justify anything - yeahI don't have a problem :D

What was that Huey Lewis song about nothing we do today will matter a 100 years from now?

I vote for that.

What about complacency?

at a remove, the op question has an obvious answer--people are this way because they are taught to be this way. whether you view the effects of this as submission or not is a political matter. whether or not you allow yourself to be sucked into variants on "work obsession" follows from political positions: if you understand the capitalist mode of work organization to be problematic, then you will probably struggle in your own life to not allow it to become how you operate; if you dont, then there's no problem and you'll do what seems to follow for you.

for myself--i can do the academic thing because i shifted around how i work. i like to make stuff. i find aspects of my academic training and interests are important catalysts for that making of stuff. for a long time, i identified very closely with a particular view of being-academic that i found debilitating and which resembled what abaya wrote above---but i figured out that for me other relations are possible and set about building them. so at this point, i see academic work as a day gig--neither better nor worse nor even particularly different from any other. what it is *not* is a space of non-alienated production. for a long time, i thought it was. i was wrong. much of my personal difficulty in reconciling myself to this curious way of life followed from my difficulty in reconciling what i thought it was and what it is.
at this point, i see an academic gig as one that pays the bills, gives me access to resources to plunder, enables teaching (which i kinda like doing)--but mostly which enables me to buy and steal time. protecting my time becomes a priority then. time is what enables other types of production to unfold. whether the outputs please others or not is not my concern--i do the stuff i do because i find the doing to be engaging.

insofar as any day gig is concerned, you only give away what you want to give away at one level or another: no-one actually gives a shit, so the problems and responsibilities are yours. sometimes i think that folk map relations to parents from the viewpoint of children into their careers and look to their day jobs for validation in ways that i find incomprehensible--but which it makes no sense to disapprove of really because they are simply not my choices, they do not correspond to my frame of reference--and because i dont have to live with the consequences and so my inability to understand them doesnt really matter.

i used to wonder what normal is like.
then i figured out that there is no normal.
people go looking for it, but it isnt there. it isnt anywhere. it doesnt exist.

dammit! ANTHROpologist. that's what i meant.... I knew you were one of thos ologist, but not a geologist!

and that was one of the funniest articles I've read from them in a while.

Once again, roachboy has summarized the essence of what I've been blathering about for two pages. It's part of your culture, folks. Culture = an set of beliefs and behaviors that are passed down from person to person in a non-genetic manner. Work ethic is one of these things. People aren't born wanting to earn their identity through their work.
rb, you and I discussed this before... but if I ever did end up in a job related to my PhD (academia, research, what have you), I'd hope that's all it was... a day job. I'm all about the "other relations" aspect, external to the day job. I think academia (just like plenty of other corporations) would like to have its members believe that there ARE no other relations, that the day job = life, and that's unfortunate.

I like where this thread is going. There are so many questions I could ask based upon the responses thus far. I want to focus on just one or two, though.

For those people who accept that their work defines them, I wonder: what defined you before you began your career? What defined you as a child? How do you expect to define yourself after you retire?

To an extent, I agree with maleficent when she says that once she's dead, she won't care if she's remembered. In that I agree with it, I believe in making the most of the life I have. While I enjoy my work, I have to admit that if I was wealthy enough to do whatever I wanted, I don't honestly know if this is what I'd do. Which brings me to my question.

If you were wealthy enough that you didn't have to work anymore, would you? Would you continue with the career you have now or would you choose something different? Please be honest.

Before I had a career, I was defined as a "student"
When I retire, I will be defined as a "retired [insert career]"

If I had enough wealth that I didn't have to work, I'd still work in my career. I enjoy what I do, even if I don't like the job sometimes.

Heh... what defined/defines/will define me before/now/in the future, is "me." Me being a person, who I am, period. I don't see why I would want to be defined as anything else, no offense to others.

I work with a group of hard-working people. Recently, a single mom decided to have another child. She took two months of disability, had a c-section paid for by the state just because she wanted to, and filed for assistance from the state for single mothers with children. She won't marry the father, because that would cut down on welfare. He currently collects disability, but is not hindered in any way from riding his bicycle around all day.

To top it off, she brags to her former co-workers how they have plenty of money now.

Does that make anyone else feel that working hard is pointless? Or at least unfair?

I guess I would ask: How does that make you feel? The tone I'm getting from your post is that what she is doing bothers you.

i had my first job where i paid social security at 15 but paying jobs as a babysitter since I was 11 or 12- and got recognized for a strong work ethic often... work has always defined me for the most part... but before that - being a hard worker in school, in sports, in anything I did - i was defined by whatever I did -I have it 100 percent...

I'll be carried out of the officein a pine box, retirement will be defined by a death...

My only question: isn't it possible to be a hard worker without that work defining who you are? To put in your 110% to whichever job/activity/sport for the time that it requires, and then go home and chill, be "yourself," and let go of work for the day? I've seen it done, and I try hard to approximate this in my own life, so I know it's not impossible. In fact, I would daresay that it's an ideal to strive for.

Creating a boundary between one's work and one's self seems elemental, just as it's important to have boundaries between one's self and one's spouse, or one's children, or anything else we invest so much time and energy in during our lives. Preserving our core being. Isn't that key to healthy living, to not depending so much on one particular thing or person for who we are?... because then we are left vulnerable to losing our entire sense of self, when one of those pillars gets yanked out from under us.