On Negativity and Complaining
 

I have an assistant that has a very negative outlook on life and it has got me to wondering about the nature of negativity and complaining.

There have been times in my life where I have taken the pessimistic approach and seen the negative in everything. In retrospect it's a suck-ass way to live. The problem with being negative is that it has a snowballing effect... thinking negatively encourages you to see the negative in everything and so you see the negative in most things. It's a vicious that is almost impossible to escape.

In listening to her, I realized that I shared a lot of the same opinions as she does but I haven't fallen into the trap of negativity. I have puzzled about why this is the case. The only thing I have managed to come up with is that I don't try to personalize things. I take something negative and recognize it for what it is an obstacle to getting on with it.

In other words, I recognize what is negative and grapple with it head on. Rather than sit and complain about something, I find out what it is about the issue is and work to fix it.

In most cases, this takes the form of ignoring what others are doing while trying to set an example of the right or better way of doing something.

For me, the key is recognizing that change doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes it takes time for the worm to turn. Having patience. Taking a long view. Not internalizing other's negativity. And most importantly striving to make the things you care about better by actively being part of the solution. Complaining and finger pointing is a waste of time and energy. No?


I am still thinking about this...

What are your methods of dealing with the issue of negativity?

I've noticed that some people complain in a business and school environment to fit in. I f**king hate that. Obviously sometimes school and work can be a chore, but you're there for a damn reason and you've got to stay focused.

As for people who are truly negative, they can be a drain on my positivity. I'm generally a pretty positive, optimistic type of person, but I don't pull from a bottomless pit. I have limits, and when I'm around people who are serial negatives I can run dry. When I run dry it's a Jeckyl/Hyde situation. I become especially introverted, quiet, impatient, and even reclusive. It's frustrating to say the least because none of those traits are productive or enjoyable.

Ignoring can work for a bit, but really unless I either leave or deal with it there are going to be problems. Confrontation is important, so long as you don't make it out to be accusatory. I would just simply make a remark after a negative sentiment to bring to their attention that their outlook may be somewhat negative.

I'm not sure how I deal with it in that I'm not really cognizant of how I deal with it. The way I see negative situations is that they are transitory and will only last a short time. However, I will sometimes be negative just for the sake of being negative, because, in all honesty, people who are always happy and positive annoy me. On further reflection, though, I think it's more that I tend to be contrary than negative. Also, I'm a big believer in the notion that a situation presents itself differently to each observer, depending on their point of view and their outlook. I try not to be negative in my outlook. It doesn't always work, but I try.

My posts here? They tend to verge on being contrary.

I figure I have only one life and I don't intend on spending it using a lot of my energy on the negative. Why others prefer to focus on the negative is a mystery to me. I wish I could recall where it came from, but I was watching a movie once and a brother was talking to his sister. He was annoyed with her perpetual negativity. Finally, he had had enough and he said to her, "What's so difficult about deciding to be in a good mood and then being in it?"

Really, I believe it's that simple.

Negativity is an easy thing to fall into and it's something that I've been dealing with for awhile. People seem to relate better to negative outlooks rather than positive. I notice that if I have a good day the conversations are very short, but if I have a bad day the conversation lasts longer. If someone says they are feeling great, there is inevitably that wow, really? This reminded me of a journal entry I did earlier this year. Most people said that they weren't as interested reading about good days. I don't understand why, but I guess it's boring.

Negativity is contagious and can spread faster that a flu. Some people are more susceptible than others, but it can take its toll on many people.

It does take time to get positive outlook on things. I would prefer to be happy for myself and if it catches on then great. If not, it's not my problem. Being negative and unhappy is very unhealthy. The typical, "What are you so happy about?" comments are generally heard when I'm positive in a generally negative environment. Misery likes company. However, a smile is also contagious too.

Complaining is a waste of time, but most people would be lost without it. That's how life goes I suppose.

Interesting concept in being "contrary". I think I struggle with the fact that I often see being positive all the time as tantamount to accepting Kool-Aid from Jim Jones...

I try to have a healthy level of skepticism. The problem for me is when that skepticism slides into negativity.

Being contrary for the sake of it sounds like you like to be a shit disturber (though I am sure you could argue it is more of being from the Socratic school of pain in the ass).

I'm the gal you want to have around when you are faced with a situation where negativity abounds. I seem to be able to drag everyone around me kicking and screaming with me back above the positive threshold.

myself on the other hand. my personal negativity is a massive all encompassing soul sucking black hole.

but hey, i can keep it to myself and not wrench the light out of the surrounding cosmos!

*grin*

I had to learn a simple exercise to counteract my overwhelming pessimism: "What are ya gonna do about it?" Whether the answer is one of action or nothing, it made me realize that complaining was a waste of brain that could better be used elsewhere.
If she complains to you about something, try asking her that a couple of times....
Everyone's aware that life can suck-but it can be fantastic too. I had to be reminded a few times before I could grasp that. Now I embrace it.

Is there something cathartic in complaining? Is there joy in kvetching? What do people hope for when they complain?

Do they want someone to share their issue?
Do they want to get a "higher power" or someone else to solve their issue?
Do they just want to gripe?

What do you think? Is complaining a force for positive change or is negative? Can it be both?

I'm a fairly negative person - life has pretty much taken me there... (yes I know negative negative)

laziness right now has me staying negative -it's effort to be postive.. and see the postive in things... and if I actually do start to beleive good things, well too often it leads to disappointment because there's always a fall.

if you stay at the bottom and something good happens, well it's a bonus - when you have no expectationsof good - and something good happens on a rare instance - then well - yay...

I live with one foot in the monstrously two-faced world of performance art. The basic rule here is "don't get caught liking something everyone else hates, or your credibility will be forever shot." Therefore, in order to avoid potential embarrassment, everybody pretty much trashes everything - UNLESS you're talking TO the actual performer. Then, you glow and gush.

I'll never forget the raised eyebrows and cutted eyes Grancey and I received years ago because we were plebian enough to actually visit Graceland AND have a good time there. UGH! How pedestrian....

None of you would believe it, but I'm actually a very agreeable and likeable guy - I just have my nuclear moments. So there are times when I fit in the performance world and times I don't want to.

I have a friend every other sentence seems to be about something negative in her life. Sometimes I want to shake her to see if that will turn the switch in her brain from negative to positive. I think if someone is a sensitive person (maybe hypersensitive) it's easier to fall into the negativity trap. Except for those precious moments that make it all worthwhile life sucks most of the time. Some people have thicker skin than others.

I try to embrace the negative, and then let it go. When it comes back I do it again....eventually it becomes smaller and smaller until I don't feel it anymore.

If you don't feel it, it does not exist.

this is all probably terribly particular---->

a little story: when i was about to leave france after 2 years of research for the behemoth i now refer to as my dissertation, i ha to return some papers to an older couple who were involved deeply in the revolutionary marxist group i was writing about. they took me to lunch, in part in order to tell me something as it turned out.

during the lunch, one of them looked at me and said :you have to be careful about the way in which you take this political work seriously. you have to remember that you must live in this world too. you have to let yourself enjoy things.

this from folk who had been involved in revolutionary politics for 50 years, across a period that saw the political universe within which they had operated simply dissolve.

i cant say that this instantly changed anything, but i have thought about this story alot over the years and it has had a big effect.

it seems that the distinction between being critical and being bitter lay in curiousity about the world---which is linked to the idea that what you see is a variant on what is possible and not the whole of what is possible. you can see political work as making new possibilities. this is quite different from seeing the same activity as limited to pointing out the myriad ways in which the existing order sucks, is wrong, wastes people and their lives and so forth.

the former gives you space to explore: the latter doesnt. the former enables you to value exploring that space and thereby to get yourself out of living in your head: the latter doesnt. it seems to me that you have to understand that you create your world as you move through it, that being alive is a creative act. you have to be able to imagine something else. it almost doesnt matter what enables you to do that. but something has to. creative work,a hobby, something that engages you. bitterness comes from boredom and boredom comes from a lack of curiousity, even about yourself and what you can do when you stop allowing yourself to be wholly defined situationally. and you have to, sooner or later. otherwise you suffocate.

if you pull down around you everything that you see in the world that is shitty and decide at one level or another that what is shitty defines everything you can imagine, then of course you'll become bitter and shut up in yourself. you'll perform your alienation all the time. that's more or less all you'll do. you'll confuse it with something Important. you'll learn to enjoy it. it'll become what you do. you can confuse the reactions of others to your performance of alienation with confirmation of your superior moral position. your righteousness makes them uncomfortable--that kind of thing.

to my mind, all that's an illusion: but it an be a powerful one because it is mostly about the same thing radical political work is ultimately about--rationalizing your alienation (in amore existentialist sense than a marxist one).

it is easy to forget that people need hope, and all the more easy if you do not allow yourself to have any. being able to hope for something more or different or better isnt some pollyanna copout--its a reason to continue. and if you do critical work, it is easy to forget that what you produce is not so much an outline of a shitty world, but a demonstration of its arbitrariness--behind which lay the idea that if this world is arbitrary then it could be otherwise. if you forget that, you're fucked.

it's easy to be bitter. it's easy.

i dont really have any advice. for me, this problem obviously slots into another one, and i dont have a way to split them apart, so i just say it.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

I am sometimes (maybe even often) a cynic, a skeptic and a purveyor of dissent. I occupy myself at times with the abundance of atrocity and injustice that takes place in the world. My own life has had it's share of disheartening and heart-breaking events. Still, somehow, I have managed to keep, overall (occasional outbursts of petulance and frustration aside) a pretty positive outlook on life. When something is beautiful or fascinating to me, it is incredibly beautiful and fascinating to me. And vice versa.

As a result, I tend not to 'sweat the small stuff.' And people who do. Constantly. In my office. Drive me crazy.

Of course, now I'm complaining. :lol:

This was something my father uses. Whenever someone complains about something, he'll listen to the complaint, then say, "That's great. What are you going to do about it?"

As frustrating as it is to hear, him saying that helped me come to terms with my own negativity, and, like you, I learned that if I couldn't do anything about it, to just let it go.

I'm not exactly sure where it comes from. Apparently I've been like this for quite some time because others around me have noticed it since I was a teenager. Hmm...maybe I just never grew up? I think it stems from this morbid fear I have of being seen as ordinary.

I think there is a difference between complaining and venting. At least, I hope so... I try very hard to appreciate small things that are good. Like the bus. In fact, my whole theory on how to deal with my negativity can be related to catching the bus.

There is a bus that goes down the main blvd, and if it is there, I take it. If it is not there, I walk the 10 blocks to the subway. If it's raining and crappy, I can be grumpy that the bus isn't there, and may even bitch to Q that "dammit, I had to walk all that way in the rain and now I'm soaked!". But it doesn't change anything. I just feel better with the minute of sympathy I got from him... and I still took care of things and walked.

But when the bus IS there, I make a mental note - thank goodness! It's here! It's 97 degrees out, and what a nice thing that the bus was here! Maybe I'll even have time to get coffee...

I feel that this way, I am keeping karma on my side. :p

When the subway is there, I am happy and think of what an easy commute I had. It affects my whole day. When it is delayed and crowded, and people suck, I try very hard to ignore it all and just read my book. I try not to stew on how crappy the commute is that day, instead I focus elsewhere.

In fact, that sort of "compartmentalization" is really how I survive a remarkably busy life. Deal with it when you can and if you can't, put it aside until later.

Venting is nice for me ....sometimes, you just have to say "jesus christ on a pogo stick, THIS SUCKS!!!". You're not expecting any solutions or anything, just that the other person will say "Yeah, it does. You're not crazy. Your perceptions are solid."

As for just looking at things negatively, well, I only really do that to myself. Rather than see the pretty face my friend commented on, I see the zits and the bags and the messy hair. THAT'S where my true negativity comes in. And since I am lazy and I can't really think of when I'll be able to schedule time to work on it anyway... I will be in this state for a while. This unhappy with self state, this inability to see good things in the mirror state. If you know of a good way to kick this forever, let me know. But the only weapon I have is the one I told lurkette one day - sometimes, you have to compare yourself favorably. No, I'm not happy with my shape. But look at that person, they've got 80lbs on you, it could be a lot worse. It's not nice. But I only think it. And just to give myself perspective on the fact that it's not really that bad, no matter how much I might feel like it is.

Wow, that was a lot longer than I meant it to be.

Y'know, I could use a serious dose of this "what are you gonna do about it?" stuff." I have had a nasty negative streak going for a while now... sometimes I think it's related to mild depression, sometimes I think I've just evolved into an overly bitter, critical person. It's particularly strong towards most of my family members, both immediate and extended (not my husband, though), and I feel like it really owns me sometimes. I just can't shake my horrible attitude towards some people... in my mind, they always seem to deserve it, even though I know they don't. I wish I could be a more compassionate towards those particular people in my life.

I agree.

As soon as I read this I thought of my grandma. That woman never has a positive thing to say...ever. If she says something positive, it's bookended by negative. I don't know why she's like that or if she even realizes that she does it. I think she is in the thinking of misery loves company and she just likes to gripe.

I think that some people complain to get people on their side. They feel that they are justified in being negative if other people are on board. Power in numbers type thing.

I think complaining can be the beginning of a solution. The place I work for started because 2 teachers were bitching about the system. They were sick of working conditions. After many negative talks, they asked the golden question: Ok, we're unhappy, what are we going to do about it? There solution was to open the first charter school in Arizona. After several years, their solution is thriving and honestly the most positive school I've ever worked for in the past 8 years.

I've done nothing but bitch and complain for pretty much the past 3 years. Once I figured out what the problem(s) was/were, I asked myself the question: Ok, what am I going to do about it? I realized that a change of scenery was what I needed. I was forcing myself into situations that I hated. So, I moved and got a better job and everything is more positive because of that.

Then there are the people, like my Nana, that will complain until their dying day. Those people I try to stay away from if at all possible. I had a friend in college that carried a dark cloud with her everywhere she went. She was exhausting to talk to because of all the negative energy. I cut her off when I realized there was no way to change her point of view. I don't know why people are like that except that they are happier when they're miserable. What a sad way to live.

What we mostly miss is that fundamentally our speaking creates. We think that when we speak we're describing something that happened in the past, but we're actually creating both the present and the future of that thing. And we'll do anything we have to do in order to be right about our negative assessment of that thing.

The future lives in your mouth. It would be wise to pay close attention to what comes out of it.

My observation of people who are chronic complainers (such as your grandma Shesus, perhaps, I could be totally off base) is that they are also fearful. The things they complain about are dangerous, uncomfortable, risky, inconvenient, disquieting, confusing, out to get them or in any other way threatening to their own perception of 'safe.'

If you keep complaining your face will stick like that.


or some such business...

Interesting take. I've known people like this, but I don't think this is my grandma. She actually puts herself in situations so she can complain about them. She focuses on people who are failing in life so she can complain about them, almost in a martyr fashion. She has balied my uncle and cousin out of legal problems for so long she is broke and can barely pay her bills anymore. She has health issues that she complains about to anyone who will listen. When I call her, within 2 minutes she's complaining about her health, the Reds (she's a huge fan of their maybe because they haven't won in a long time), my parents, my grandpa, or about me (she wanted a grandson and yea after 29 years she's still disappointed).

I honestly think she is one of those people who just enjoys griping. Like the old people that sit in their rocking chairs and bitch about everything while yelling at kids. That's just who she is and always has been.

A Staind song came up on my Pandora earlier and it made me think again of this thread. I think it summarizes my answer to the Charlatan's "how do you deal with it" question:

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Doh, I hate to say it, but this sounds almost like my Mom. I mean, I love her and I love spending time with her, but some of the things you describe here sound like her, too.

by all means it's better to be happy if possible - but its a lot easier for those who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

what do most people know about boiling a kettle for a bath?

The happiest people I know are poorer than shit. It's all they've got.

It's the lower-middle suburbanites who seem to be negative about everything. They've got just enough money to see what they wish it could be like.

If anything, I think happiness is inversely proportional to wealth.

Oh no...seriously. I can't let this one go. I'm so tired of woe is me the world dealt me a shitty hand.

No one is dealt a perfect hand, you make what you can out of it. If you are convinced that you're life is shit, that's what you're going to have. You need to pick yourself up by the bootstraps and do something about the situation.

I know it's tough and sometimes it looks like there is no way out. There is always a way out. There is always something out there. You just have to have the motivation and the creativity to get there.

We've lived in places where the ceiling would fall on us while we slept. This was after we moved upstairs because the ceiling tiles were better than the shit that would land on the bathroom floor everytime the people upstairs flushed their toilet. We had to pray that we wouldn't get stung by wasps that lived in the living room. Later, we lived in one of the most expensive cities and didn't get paid for 3 months and had no savings. Somehow we made it through and it wasn't because we sat around feeling sorry for ourselves. I've never taken anyone's offer for money or help.

Get over yourself. You are choosing to be miserable if you live with those thoughts.

**If you are making a point, this is in no way directed at you=strangefamous, this is you=woe is me my life sucks bull's balls and I can't do anything about it. If that is you, then yea, ask yourself: What are you going to do about it?

When i'm in a negative spell, it's generally a defense mechanism. If everything already tends towards shittiness, then i can lower my expectations, avoid emotional commitments, and, then, i get to feel all vindicated when bad things happen. It seems more a byproduct of depression than anything else

My current m.o. is one of skeptical optimism, but it's easy right now; life is good.

Though I won't call myself a lower middle-class suburbanite, I feel like this sometimes. I often have to remind myself (or mandy has to do it for me) that money does not necessarily bring or guarantee you happiness.

The only thing I need to stay positive is to remind myself that I could be a lot worse off than I am right now. Positive thinking is something I'm working on - apparently it breeds more positive actions and events. We'll see.

While this may be off-topic a bit, I feel I need to respond. If I was in a situation where I had no means to help myself and someone offered their help - sincerely - then I'd have no problem accepting. It might come down to personal pride, but I think it just as important to be humble enough to accept the help of others. Just make sure to thank them profusely.

I dont mean any offence, but Americans dont understand class - by which I mean social class. It doesnt exist in America. By all means there are a lot of lessons in life I could learn, but I dont think anyone from North America can tell me what being working class feels like.

Perhaps Americans don't understand how a class system works in the same way as you do in the UK - but don't fool yourself to think that there is no class system here. And somehow I'm pretty sure that class doesn't necessarily denote a universal outlook on life no matter where you live. I just don't buy that.

And I come from a family that has both very rich and very poor people in it. And the very rich members seem every bit as miserable (if not more) as the rest of us, lol.

There is very much a class system at work in the United States. I had the great fortune of being born into the middle class, but I have worked jobs that put me into contact with those of other classes, and it was quite a shock to 20-year-old me to find out just how poor some people are. It was also a shock to me to discover that poverty and happiness do not necessarily correlate, for some of these people were quite happy with their lives and content.

Me, I've got thousands of dollars in student loan debt, but I'm happy as a clam. I'm unemployed at the moment (sort of), and the only thing I own worth anything is my car. Materially, I have squat. What I have might not be much to some people, but that's okay to me. You gotta make do with what you have, sometimes, until you can do something else. Some people aren't ever going to be happy with their lives, and that's their problem. Like JJ said--What are you going to do about it? People get bogged down in their negativity because they're afraid to change.

I tend to tune out other people's negativity. It's not worth getting my panties in a twist over something so pointless. Negativity, in my mind, is just a waste of time.

However, I do like to bitch once in a while. But in that case, I call my mom, bitch a bit, and get it out of my system. Then it's done. Like pulling off a Band-Aid.

of course people in America can be poor. I dont deny that many people have grown up in worse conditions than me... but poverty (even in its harshest elements) is NOT the same thing as class.

Being poor is a condition, and one that may be very unpleasant, but class is who you ARE. In America, who you are is never determined by where you are from.

Well, I understand your point, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that who you are is never determined by where you are from. True, in America there is more latitude to escape the lower classes if you are able to. But who you are is absolutely determined by where you are.

I deal with most negativity by ignoring it. Unless for some reason I cannot, then I complain right along with the best of them.

Works for me.

What are you going to do about it?

I like that. I suppose, without putting a name to it, this is what I've doing. I don't think that it is going to solve your problems but it does give a different outlook on the issue when you are being active about a solution rather than wallowing in a situation.

Which suggests that even being born into a certain station in life can be overcome. It's just the degree to which you are willing struggle to make it happen that will bring about that change. I know that sounds optimistic but know that I am not saying that you will get out of a negative situation just that taking an active role changes your perception of the event.

Change has to be desired. The first few times that question was posed were met with "I don't know", or "I can't do it", feeding the negativity. As Roachboy said, it is easy. It's comfortable and it sucks people in.....for a second. Then they run like hell, exasperated and you're left with more negativity. I was lucky-I had friends much more tenacious than I that knew how to deliver swift metaphorical ass kicks.
Like Shesus' grandmother, I had one who did nothing but complain and lament. She had a horrible life growing up, but she had her own family and still lamented and worried and complained-she was so stuck in her youth's despair, she couldn't dig her way out right up to her death.
It's ok to bitch, to vent about one's lot in life, but along with that, some thanks should top it off and "What am I gonna do about it" should take over. People overcome poverty, disability, addictions, adversity not by complaining incessantly, but by doing something about it.
More people would know about such adversities than the other way around. Here, in one week, two very famous and stinkingly wealthy women died. One was a giving philanthropist and socialite whom many adored; the other, a bitch extraordinaire. Class does not make 'class'. Wealth does not equal happiness; I daresay it would feed cynicism and mistrust.
And any time I hear someone declare their current misery is because of their lousy childhood, I'm tempted to call bullshit. If you don't like something, fix it and get over it.

Healer, I have gotten burned by taking what I thought were gifts because they were disguised as graduation gifts, birthday or Christmas gifts. Nope, they weren't and this is why I don't accept other's people help or at least financial help. Those items were held over my head for power trips and guilt trips. This happened too many times when I was first starting out and since then I would rather make it on my own than have to owe something to someone else. My mom is asking me now what I want for Christmas and I'm telling her camping equipment because I don't think she could use that for anything of power. She might be able to though, but I know that I can't tell her nothing because she'll still get me something. But that's off topic, I just wanted to explain to you why I don't accept financial help from others.

Maybe, I don't understand the class system that they have in the UK. I haven't been there so I can't comment on that. However, I do know that there are definite classes here too. I've been flat broke and I've been well-to-do. In either situation I chose how I reacted to them. I could be positive or negative. Negativity doesn't help anything and in fact makes the situation worse.

And I still ask the million dollar question: What are you going to do about it? Either find a way to escape your situation -or- change your outlook. But you are CHOOSING to be negative no one is holding a gun to your head.

I have known a couple of people in my life that are beyond negative and they were and are both big drains on my mental energy. I quit hanging out with the one girl, but the other lady is the manager at my apartment building and I do the cleaning here, so I am unfortunately stuck interacting with her. The first girl, Tina, whined about everything and I did everything I could to make things easier for her. Say everything was bad and the last thing she wanted to do is her dishes, I would do them for her so she had one last thing to worry about, it was never enough. She liked the attention she got from having so many negative things going on in her life. My apartment manager, Kim, is worse. She has many issues, is a Jehova witness-alcoholic, but that is beyond the point. You ask her how she is, and it's always "terrible", I have a migrane, this that the other and everything under the sun is wrong. It drives me nuts. Both of these women are in my opinion sick. They like the attention negativity brings. I believe that most people who are on the negative side are not like this though, they are the severe side of the spectrum.

I tend to be on the pessimistic side, but I like to consider myself realistic. That being said, I am a generally happy person who has the capability of seeing the positive side of things when the positive side is realistic. Sometimes as JustJess mentioned, we need to vent, and then we move on and make the changes necessary to over come the negativity. I do believe that once one falls into the cycle of extreme negativity is extremely difficult to get out of it. I dunno, it's a big drain on my energy when I'm too negative and when those around me are too negative, especially when they have borderline personality disorders as I think the gals I mentioned in the first paragraph have. People who are the extreme opposite get on my nerves as well. Those nothing is ever wrong, the world is fantastic, smile all the time people tend to annoy me. Balance is key I suppose.

I tend to be a pretty positive person in general, and I don't think I do much "complaining", but I definitely do my fair share of pointing out when I find things disagreeable. I think "complaining" is more akin to expressing fault in something without any suggestion as to how it can be fixed, or in a way that suggests you don't care to improve the situation, just weigh in with your negative opinion.

I don't disagree with this in some cases. But to be a fair, a lot of traits such as negativity and positivity are not choices. Brain chemistry lends to these thinking patterns just as much as environment and willpower in many cases. Not everyone can just make themselves think positively.

I think, perhaps, you've taken it a few inches too far. Certainly brain chemistry allows for deviation from the norm, but I wouldn't say that 'some people cannot make themselves think positively' (implied by not everyone can). It makes much harder, yes, but not physically (or emotionally) impossible. I know of no "disorder" - even bipolar disorder and "clinical" depression which makes happy thought impossible.

I didn't say that happy thoughts were impossible for some people. What I meant is that some people cannot say to themselves, 'I'm just not going to worry about that' and do it. In cases of bipolar disorder and clinical depression pharmaceuticals are most often prescribed to correct these chemical imbalances in the brain. They don't do it through willpower alone.

Erm, not a discussion to get into with Jinn. :)

pffft. everyone is entitled to their opinion. :)

Interesting replies from everyone.

I can agree that there are a few people that are chemically imbalanced but I really think (despite the upswing in prescriptions for prozac and xanax, etc) that they are in the vast minority.

By and large most who just complain are people who are saying that they don't want to solve the problem.

Saying, "I don't have enough time" really just means that you aren't willing to make something a priority over something else.

Saying, "I don't have enough money" is just saying you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to earn that money...

Saying, "I don't don't like the way someone does something" means you aren't willing to do it right and set a better example.

Complaining is easy. Rolling up your sleeves and tackling the problem is hard.

there is this naive perkiness concerning class here, the kind of thing that confuses the possibility that you have of getting into a car and driving from one spatial expression of social class in the states to another with class mobility. its a version of the stuff that garrison keilor makes fun of whe he introduces lake woebegone, the place where "everyone is above average"....it doesnt say much of anything about class from an analytic viewpoint, but says a whole lot about how class is staged ideologically in the states.

ideologically in the marxist sense of the term, the crudest marxist sense, the one that means "false consciousness".

on the other hand, it is i suppose possible to live entirely within that ideology. if it wasnt, it'd just collapse.

so when i see these "whaddya going to do?" memes, i kinda laugh.
if you need them to maintain a certain optimism, then go for it i guess.

on the other hand, when i think about making stuff as a device to maintain curiousity about the world, i am engaging in an act of sublimation (freudian term. warning will robinson) as well. and while at the political level, i can say that i prefer one form of sublimation to another and can present a raft of arguments to back it up, emotionally i am not sure which one is better really. or even if the question of which is better makes any sense.

basically, i think strange famous is right above.

but this is not an actual conversation about class as a category: its about maintaining a distance on what you find around you that you think wrong or abhorrent so that you dont make what you think or say self-defeating because you become a vacuum, a tedious element in the great "everything sucks school," mister or ms buzzkill, the drag at every event.

This interests me. I wonder, since we don't hear about it in the way we hear about the negativity: are there people whose brain chemistry won't allow them to think negative thoughts? Are there some people who are unable to experience anger or sadness due to brain chemistry?

Well, I am not sure about anger and sadness, but I know there are people who unable to feel empathically. I would guess yes. I would say the manic side of bi-polar disorder might come pretty close to that...

And just to clarify, I am not suggesting that there are people who feel just one emotion their entire lives. Just that there are people who not fully in control of how their brain processes the chemicals that engender emotional responses. I think this is fairly established information that I can find if need be.

Not being from the UK, I can't fully appreciate how class can effect a way of life... that said, I didn't grow up in the Canadian middle class. I grew up on the "wrong side of the tracks". My Mom and Dad would be working class by just about every definition there is and yet, I have managed to get out of it, mostly by not realizing I was in that situation. It isn't part of how I define myself.

I wonder how it would have been to be raised always having my station in life imposed upon me (thing working class or lower caste positions in life). Would it truly make a difference to have someone continually putting you in your place?

I have trouble imagining settling for less that what I want in life (but then what I want isn't really all that material).

hehe, one of my faults is this. I think that if I can do it anyone can and this is something that drives a lot of people up the wall. I don't view myself as anyone special or with superhuman traits. I'm just a person that has problems and works to get them fixed or improved.

I was diagnosed with depression 5 years ago. I was the most negative person in the world. I wouldn't even get out of bed for awhile. I realized that what I was doing was destructive to my marriage, my career, and myself. With some support from JJ, I got into therapy and fought against meds. I did give in and get on them for about 9 months just to clear my head to be able to deal with the issues.

Point of the story: I was choosing to let circumstances from the past, present, and future to make me feel depressed. Once I realized that everyone has issues and problems, good times and bad times, I was able to choose to look at the positive things and after some hard work and a couple of years, I got better. So it is a choice and even with depression, it was still a choice. I still chose to be depressed in Chicago. I am choosing to be happy here. Could I have been more positive in Chicago?...yep, but it was the harder choice and it took a lot of energy for me to be that way.

Now that was me and that's when I say I drive people crazy and I'm a bit over the top judgmental. I'm working on this, I'm constantly working on improving myself. But I guess I still sometimes lose patience easily when I know that I've done it and have seen other people close to me do it. But I'm not naive enough to realize that there are some people worse off and that do have mental illnesses that need medical attention. However, if that's the case then get medical help But then there is the whole medical care that costs an arm and a leg even if you have insurance. Then those that don't have insurance....it is a huge problem. I don't know.

However, mental illnesses weren't the OP. It was just about negativity and complaining of 'normal' people. I still believe that is a choice. Some people don't like challenges or things that are hard to do and slip into the easy choice.

I agree. There are many people who just fall into the habit of complaining for various reasons, when they could choose to do otherwise.

But, you know what? As long as they are not standing in my office, I don't give a damn. :lol:

I certainly agree. It's just that Jinn made a whole thread about his opinion of depression a while back (I'm not sure if you were around then, can't remember how far back it was) and a lot of us argued about the whole brain chemistry vs. bootstraps-pulling-up idea... and it wore everyone out. At least, it wore me out. :lol:

it's really quite difficult to disentangle what is chemically driven from what is caused by other things. sometimes i think that there is no necessary distinction, that what amounts to a distinction is generated by effects: if you cant function, then there is a problem and while a diagnosis might be in a way arbitrary, at the same time it doesnt really matter if the results of it (that is the treatment, the therapy) enables you to function better (or at all).

i know alot of folk who have been at one point or another driven to the point of having to get help like this, and my understanding of the treatments is that it is often the act of going through the therapy itself that really helps.
i am very susipicious of the hmo-style substitution of chemicals for therapy simply because it is more cost-effective. i think that is wrong.

but it seems to me that there is a hard distinction between "being negative" and chemically driven depression, and that distinction centers on general functionality. and that is not really for other people to judge. i might find x or y to be a serious drag to be around, but that doesnt equal a diagnosis.

Hell, it wore me out and I didn't even respond to that thread.

For the record and for the continuity of this discussion, I do believe that people are pre-disposed to depression and circumstances can cause a person to suffer from it, much like someone can be predisposed to alcoholism, but doesn't necessarily mean that alcohol will become a problem for them. I believe that people with a pre-disposition for depression are much more susceptible to negative influences. The only problem is that I have no evidence to back this up, have no training whatsoever, and only have my opinion to go on.

On the other hand, people like shesus' grandmother, who isn't clinically depressed but always seems to find the negative in every situation, are the people who drain me to the point of insanity.

I don't have time to backread this whole thread right now, but I saw the topic and it reminded me of an article I saw the other day on one of my favorite websites, lifehack.com, called "How to Stop Complaining", written by Steve Pavlina.

Here is the direct link to the article --

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...p-complaining/

I really dont want to come across as insulting and I hope I am not. You may have a word that means class to you, and that means class in the context of your life - by all means. When I say clas. you DO NOT know what I mean, you DO NOT know what it feels like. There is no class in America. There is stratification, and wealth that is passed through family lines of course... there is some racism, some snobbishness, and all the rest of it... but the street that I grew up in; the working mans club my grandfather drank in, my father drank in, I drank in; the mothers we all had... these things are impossible in America.

Strange Famous - So tell us how it is. You hold this as some major mystery - I could also argue that you, not being from the US, may not have a true appreciation for how things are here, and if it IS actually possible that we are able to commiserate and relate more closely than you might think.

I would be curious to see what other folks residing in the UK could chime in on this issue and give their insight.

SF read post #51 where I say much the same thing.

That said, what is to stop you from leaving the UK for somewhere else? I know it's difficult but it isn't impossible.

SF read post #51 where I say much the same thing.

That said, what is to stop you from leaving the UK for somewhere else? I know it's difficult but it isn't impossible.

To me, if you don't like the situation what are you going to do to change it? This can take many forms from working (actively rather than just talking about it) to bring about communism to moving to another place where your accent and position of birth is irrelevant.

I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier, but I have a little something to add to the discussion about negative thinking patterns and choice.

I have an 8-year-old who can be exasperatingly negative and fatalistic. Her father, whom she hasn't been around at all for almost three years now was also exasperatingly negative and fatalistic (he has since been diagnosed with having bi-polar disorder). His mother, one sister and at least one aunt that I know of are also exasperatingly negative and fatalistic. Now knowing what I have told you here, can anyone say with absolute assuredness that my eight-year-old daughter is making a choice to be negative? I know. I deal with it every day and I say that NO it isn't.

We shouldn't be so quick to judge people because they have to struggle with what comes (relatively) easily to us. Every day I am trying to coach my daughter into not defaulting to the negative. For some people it just doesn't work that way.

And why should it? Why all this stress on being upbeat and positive?

When you really think about, what we might consider 'negative' thinking has spawned some of the most compelling works of art and literature in the history of mankind. Maybe we're supposed to be this way. Different and all.

Just some random thoughts...

mm... I don't disagree that negativity has spawned some amazing works of art. But in spite of a negative point of view the artists still managed to create something.

I suppose what I am reacting to is more a tendency to simply point out the negative alone. Wallowing in negativity is good for a time, it puts life in perspective. But to simply wallow seems to be rather self-indulgent (chemical imbalance aside).

to be clear, I don't want to live in a world of stepford wives (and people). Negativity has it's place.

well if you're going to make something that is an absolute black hole you cant actually be IN that place---you have to know it, understand it and how it works----but you cant be IN it or you wont make anything.

i am not sure i buy the romantic suffering artiste thing.
something like notes from the underground has alot of playfulness in its language. it describes a particular existential space but isnt of it.

much closer to that space would probably be one of those diaries understood as copying experience in the sense of just repeating it, not opening it up to anyone, just saying stuff like "today everything sucked again" or "today everything sucked again" or "today everything sucked again." that indicates that the writer is not thinking that there could possibly be a reader, and if there were to be one, that reader would probably suck anyway so why bother?

I'm not trying to romanticize it. Just pointing out that a certain amount of 'dark thinking' has spawned a lot of material that has informed and touched us in ways that we can't imagine living without. At least I can't.

Philosophy is all about balance.

mm:

romanticism more. the suffering beautiful soul. young werther. tht kind of thing.
i didnt mean you were romanticising the dark side.

Unfortunately, the way brain chemistry works, the opposite of the conditions that cause depression do not cause extreme or unabated happiness, they cause other very bad things. In short, what generally causes depression, neurochemically, is a lowered amount of serotonin (that's a vast oversimplification, but moving along...).

On the other side of the coin, higher than normal levels of serotonin do not just produce euphoria, they begin to cause many very bad physiological changes. For example: The drug ecstasy, while it may temporarily cause a sort of euphoria, causes many bad reactions, like the infamous high body temperature, increased heart rate and blood pressure, sweating, etc. In lower amounts, the effects are still widespread but the emotional spectrum doesn't shorten towards the positive... you can still have negative thoughts or reactions. The worst part is, the negative reactions you DO have will be severe, and most likely appear as anger, rather than sadness.

Increased levels of serotonin actually induce a very bad, and potentially fatal condition called serotonin toxicity. From wiki, since it's easier to quote than write it all from scratch:

Areas in [these things] are me replacing the medical terms with lay terms, just for those who might not know the medical terms.

So yeah... while drugs like LSD (acid), mushrooms, and Ecstasy cause an increased level of serotonin in the brain, hence the generally positive "trip", being at even somewhat higher than normal levels of serotonin for any length of time begins to cause muscle tremors/spasms, and increased blood pressure and heart rate. So really, any levels high enough to make a person "high" or artificially happy, would also be causing many problems all throughout the body that would eventually be a big problem for your health.

Also, increased levels of serotonin over a period of time can "burn out" the areas of the brain that manufacture it, causing a person who doesn't die from constantly high levels of serotonin eventually end up clinically depressed because they can no longer make serotonin at even normal levels. This is the "burnout" associated with people becoming "emotionally void" or depressed after frequent use of elicit drugs like ecstasy, mushrooms, and LSD.

In short, there's really no "happy medium" where the serotonin levels are higher than normal to produce some happiness/euphoria but without causing any damaging effects elsewhere in the body. There is certainly the ability for a person to live with serotonin levels slightly higher than others do, but it might only cause a propensity for positive thinking. Increasing the likelihood of positive thought and happiness isn't the same thing as blocking/lowering the incidence of negative thought and sadness. It just means that, given any situation, they're more likely to respond in a positive way than a person with lower serotonin levels.

/way too much information, but maybe it was helpful to someone, including Jinnkai who thinks most depression is caused by a person's inability to just "suck it up". ;)

I think mm was confused because of the lack of a capital letter...small r and big R and all that, though we should know by now not to expect any capitalization from you, dear roachie.

young werther...showing off, are we? :p

There is opportunity for enrichment in the UK, maybe one day I will be rich, but I will always be working class. I don't mean to be anything else.

Wait a moment. Did I just read numerous complaints by you about being working class and how horrible it is and how you can't be happy if you're working class (because this thread is about negativity after all) and now you're saying you have no intention of be anything but working class?

Then what the hell are you complaining about?

This is what we're talking about in this thread. Not who's rich or poor. Money means nothing when it comes to happiness.

of course working people can be happy. Class is an economic reality - and it is true to say that as long as their is a master class and an exploited class: that the people will always be unfree... but the alienation from labour does not have to mean personal unhappiness. Class is also a social reality, which is what I am talking about here. And no, it doesnt mean that every working person has to always be unhappy - but it makes you more fatalistic for sure.

But like Eugene G Debs said "wherever there is a working class I shall be in it"

Again, I have to ask: what the hell does class warfare or class exploitation have to do with negativity and complaining? Where does this fit in? I'm starting to think that you're just simply attempting to inject some Marxism into any thread you can.

if you think about it jj, the linkage is pretty simple: if you see class as a mode of domination in an "objective" sense (think a map of the existing order that plots distribution of wealth, say), it's obvious that there would be a subjective flipside to it.

you can occupy a class position that can be defined analytically as dominated and still not internalize the idea that you are dominated.

if you internalize it subjectively, you are fucked--you would allow bourgeois ideology, which is geared around your exclusion in a sense--to define you. so you'd see yourself and what is possible only in terms of exclusion.

to translate it into the popsych language of this thread, you'd be all about "negativity" because that's most of what telling yourself that you are dominated and seeing yourself only in those terms will lead you to.

there is a way in which revolutionary politics can be seen as a project about reversing the sense of being-dominated, realigning the subjective state with the objective situation by enabling people to see domination as arbitrary. this is necessary if you are even dreaming about enabling folk to act politically. a group of people who really believe that the political and economic orders they live under are rational or necessary, and who find themselves dominated or excluded within that order will so no alternative to it. they'll see their position as justified. no possibility of acting. none at all.


i use the "pop-psych" terminology to differentiate "negativity" in this thread from the negative in a hegelian sense. which matters if you know anything about marx.

and i dont like the objective/subjective split--it's arbitrary.
but this isnt a particularly technical conversation, so the split functions.

it seems pretty straightforward.
i dont see what you're objecting to. if the problem is the use of old-school marxian categories, we can certainly have a---um---discussion about that--maybe here, maybe not.

for what it's worth, i dont really operate with these categories in this old-school sense. but that's another matter entirely.

Time is all we have until we run out of it. Valuing the time and feeling pleasure in it might be impossible for some, but for many it is a willful choice to be a victim.

My current boss - as of last Friday....was so negative and depressing every minute of every working hour - I finally told her to take my job and shove it.

It felt really great to say that to her and she acted so surprised. Hehehe...Instant Karma is something to delight in. That's one example of what constant negativity will get you.

And I was making her 40-50 hours a week so much easier for her. She was able to take off 3 days each week to work from home while I ran the HR department. Tisk, tisk.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying time off and no worries.

One of the better COs I had in the Navy pretty much told everyone that if they had a complaint, not to come to him unless they had a proposed solution. If they violated that suggestion, and didn't have said proposed solution, he pretty much told them to GTFO.

I adopted his method. In the civilian world, you have to tone down the language, but I just don't waste a lot of time with the complainers. I've even had a couple of the worst ones finally admit, after wasting a great deal of my time, that they just LIKE complaining.

They're going to have to do it with someone else, though. Sooner or later, I get rid of the ones who are poison.