Girl's feet severed at Six Flags in Kentucky - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Xazy · 06-22-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Officials at a Louisville amusement park say both of a teenage girl's legs were severed above the ankle while on a thrill ride at the park.

Six Flags Kentucky Kingdom spokeswoman Wendy Goldberg says the accident happened around 4:45 p.m. Thursday on the Superman Tower of Power.

The girl's name and hometown have not been released because she is a minor.

A broken cable could be seen sticking out from the side of the tower.

Chris Williams, who witnessed the event, told CBS affiliate WLKY that riders saw the cable break as it got to the top on the right-hand side.

Treva Smith said it snapped again as the ride descended.

"The people on the ride just came and hit the ground," Smith said.

Next, Williams said he saw the teen maimed.

"As the ride came down, the wire swung left, struck the young lady on the back side of my children," Williams said.

Williams' daughter had traded seats with the 13-year-old, and was sitting on the other side of the ride.

Smith told WLKY she raced to the ride to find members of her group who had been on it.

"When I got up there, the lady, she was just sitting there and she didn’t have no legs," Smith said. "She didn’t have no legs at all. She was just calm, probably in shock from everything."

Goldberg says it's unclear at what point during the ride the 13-year-old girl was injured. She was taken to University Hospital. There was no word on her condition.

"My son’s over there tripping out man," Williams said. "You want to come to a park and feel safe you know. We’ve got season passes. We’re not coming back for sure."

The ride lifts passengers 177 feet straight up, then drops 154 feet, reaching a speed of 54 miles per hour according to the park's Web site. It opened in 1995, then known as "the Hellevator," reports the Louisville Courier-Journal.

The ride has been shut down indefinitely while park officials investigate what caused the accident. The rest of the park remained open.

It is amazing to hear these stories I know it is a freak accident but it still places that hint of fear.

The_Jazz · 06-22-2007, 07:07 AM

Amusement park ride manufacturers are a decent sized portion of the insurance deals that I see. There aren't that many out there, and most of them have had an incident like this. I think that we're going to find out that this was caused by either poor maintenance or operator error. It's also possible that she did something stupid, although that doesn't sound like a real possibility given that this is a leg injury. If it were a hand or arm, it was most likely caused by her putting it somewhere it wasn't supposed to be. Like I said, there's only a low chance that will prove to be the cause, but it's a chance.

Although I'm sure she'd rather have her legs, she's most likely looking at around $4M ($2M for each leg) in settlements. The risk manager of the park, and his insurance carriers, probably just got out the checkbook. They don't want this to go to court.

Cynthetiq · 06-22-2007, 07:13 AM

as an avid roller coaster rider, I keep abreast of these kinds of accidents more like a running tab in my head. The last one I specifically know of was a death at Magic Mountain in Valencia CA and Skogafoss and I happened to be there. An operator crossed the tracks where she should not have and was struck and killed. We still haven't rode that coaster for one reason or another.

There isn't any real way of finding out what the accident rates are since they aren't published or aggregated. Of course a website steps up and puts it together.

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/accidents/list.cfm

warrrreagl · 06-22-2007, 07:18 AM

I feel rotten for her and I'm sure I'd be devastated if it was someone I knew personally, but the quote that got me the most was this one:

Quote:

"You want to come to a park and feel safe you know. We’ve got season passes."

Don't ever, ever, ever be so stupid as to feel safe at any place that sells thrills.

(I realize it wasn't the unfortunate girl's family member speaking this, but I'm offering this as support for general advice to everyone. The world is not a video game and you don't get to hit RESET if you get fucked. Keep your wits about you. Never assume you are safe anywhere.)

Mister Coaster · 06-22-2007, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

Don't ever, ever, ever be so stupid as to feel safe at any place that sells thrills.

Theme/amusement parks sell thrills, that have the illusion of danger. To my knowledge, this is the first accident of this magnitude of a tower/drop ride made by S&S Power. There are dozens (hundreds?) of these rides operating around the world, delivering millions of safe rides every year. This is a freak accident, and a knee-jerk reaction of saying "everything is dangerous" is simply unfounded. These parks are not in the business of intentionally hurting or killing their guests, that's obvious. Safety inspections happen daily, and whatever the cause of this freak accident was, it was most likely not forseeable.

I do feel bad for this poor girl, as it was plainly not her fault.

The_Jazz · 06-22-2007, 08:20 AM

Mister Coaster, I think that warrrreagl means that everything is dangerous, not just amusement parks. Like crossing the street. Or riding in a car.

I don't have any direct knowledge of S&S Power's loss history, but as a class of business thrill rides as a whole experience about 2 fatalities and 10 major injuries a year.

Interestingly enough, a reinsurance friend of mine called since I last posted, and he's working on roller coaster manufacturer that he and I wrote together and lost a couple of years ago. We discussed this occurrence, and that's where the numbers above came from.

Cynthetiq · 06-22-2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Mister Coaster, I think that warrrreagl means that everything is dangerous, not just amusement parks. Like crossing the street. Or riding in a car.

I don't have any direct knowledge of S&S Power's loss history, but as a class of business thrill rides as a whole experience about 2 fatalities and 10 major injuries a year.

Interestingly enough, a reinsurance friend of mine called since I last posted, and he's working on roller coaster manufacturer that he and I wrote together and lost a couple of years ago. We discussed this occurrence, and that's where the numbers above came from.

what is considered major injuries?

The_Jazz · 06-22-2007, 08:49 AM

Loss of limb generally speaking but the insurance definition also includes closed head injury, paralysis, persistant coma or organ failure.

pan6467 · 06-22-2007, 09:50 AM

While this is tragic and heart-wrenching, shit happens at these places. They are however, very safe. If I could I would be at Cedar Point and Kings Island 24/7.... you just have to be alert, aware and know that accidents happen, they are called accidents for a reason. If they were planned, they would be called planned events.

BTW, I think this is the death knell for 6 Flags however, I think they needed heavy attendance this year and it won't happen now. I think we'll see the long awaited merger/buyout from Cedar Fair.

So if you are a stock person, take advantage, buy up shares of Cedar Fair (FUN) and 6 Flags (SIX). It's going to happen because 6 Flags have been losing their asses for sometime and the day they buy 40% interest in Dick Clark Productions they have one of the worst tragedies in their company's history? They are done.

Cedar Fair bought up all the Paramount/CBS/Viacom parks and did so cheaply last year, in part to help with CBS/Viacom to afford the merger, even though this was just a drop in the bucket and they are still debt riddled.

Overall, gruesome heartlessness aside, the big winner will be Six Flag investors, who hold until Cedar Fair buys them out and Cedar Fair as another competitor bites the big one and drops out leaving only 3 others, Disney, Universal and Busch. And I see Busch getting out soon.

Ourcrazymodern? · 06-22-2007, 10:42 PM

...gruesome heartlessness aside? LOL.

warrrreagl · 06-23-2007, 10:06 PM

Mister Coaster, thank you for your reply. You raised some very interesting points, but I think I just need to find a better way to state my observation. The Jazz was correct that I wasn’t addressing historical park safety or ride construction quality or any of those specific issues. My comment had more to do with a broad observation about what I perceive to be a growing trend among Americans in our reaction to the human condition in relation to general safety.

When I read the eyewitness’ quote, I saw two different meanings within the context. On one level, the quote was addressing the shock and horror of what they had just seen with their own eyes. On another level, they seemed to be expressing disbelief that an amusement park ride in this day and age could be unsafe. And it was this second part that I had been attempting to tackle with my original post. I got the feeling they were living under the dangerous illusion that perils and hazards had somehow been regulated out of American life. Since I see this reaction more and more frequently, I am disturbed by this mentality.

I saw the same types of reactionary quotes last week after those unfortunate people in Tennessee were killed by a dragster that lost control and plunged into the crowd lining the roadway. To paraphrase, they seemed to be saying, “Why weren’t we more protected? Why weren’t there more regulations, codes, and standards to protect us from such a deadly situation?”

Contrarily, my decidedly unsympathetic reaction was, “If you were so concerned about safety, why were you standing on the shoulder of the road to watch a drag race? And how can you have the nerve to act surprised when someone got hurt?”

Grancey and I are at the beach this weekend, and I see the same reaction dangerously permeate the most mundane aspects of life. For example, there is a unified flagpole warning system up and down the beach, and we see family after family ignore the red flags. They all seem to say, “Nothing can happen to us. This is a state-owned beach, for crying out loud. They wouldn’t let people swim here if it were dangerous.” Or coming home from the movie theater tonight we kept dodging groups of people who would casually walk across the US Highway to get to their cars, oblivious to the fact that if it’s night then I can’t see them because of the oncoming traffic’s headlights. And when I would pass by them after swerving they would glare at me as if saying, “Watch it – we had the right of way.” I guess they’d rather be dead and technically correct rather than alive and safe.

Life itself is dangerous. Over-regulation of safety issues seems to be producing a generation of Americans who don’t think about taking responsibility for their own safety – they just wait for government regulations to do their thinking for them. And when people stop thinking about safety because they think they’re safe, they get hurt in a big way.

This position of mine has nothing to do with the girl who lost her feet. But as I said, I was addressing the eyewitness’ comments about her accident and not the accident itself.

Mister Coaster · 06-24-2007, 07:02 AM

Lets face it, personal responsibility went out the window a long time ago here in the US. Thank lawyers/frivioulous lawsuits for that. Sometimes, no matter how many safety regulations are in place, or how careful someone is, you are just that one in a million "wrong place at the wrong time" person.

Going back to the theme park issue, I have been on several coasters where riders have been killed. In fact I plan on riding the Raven at Holiday World in the very same seat where a dumbass lady removed her seatbelt and was ejected. I'll have the seatbelt well in place, thankyouverymuch. People should feel safe at amusement parks, as long as they follow the rules. I guess it boils down to "shit happens." Personally, I'm not changing my lifestyle because of one person's worst case censerio coming to life.

pan6467 · 06-24-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

...gruesome heartlessness aside? LOL.

What can I say I was a stockbroker once upon a lifetime ago and welllllllll sometimes it slips out.

I truly feel for the girl but it was a freak accident. How many people have ridden those types of rides and not gotten hurt? How many have ridden that particular ride and never gotten hurt? I have a feeling the odds are astronomical. Doesn't make it any less traumatic, sure, but it doesn't mean that those rides are evil and need torn down either.

tenniels · 06-24-2007, 09:30 PM

warrrreagl, I really agree with what you wrote. People seem to think things just aren't dangerous anymore, someone should be protecting us at all times.

As for the original subject, I feel really bad for the girl, but have to agree that it is just a freak accident. Still sucks for her though.

Charlatan · 06-25-2007, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Lets face it, personal responsibility went out the window a long time ago here in the US.

my favourite example of this is a plastic bag with the words: This Bag is Not A Toy.

No shit.

The only reason it is there is because people cannot or will not take responsibility. They would rather sue the manufacturer than admit that they left their child alone to play with a plastic bag (let's face it, the words on the bag are not intended for the child as they aren't likely to be able to read it).

Cynthetiq · 06-25-2007, 05:22 AM

yeah well there's still some hope for personal responsibility...

a NY fireman's family is saying his death 'IT WAS JUST A TRAGIC ACCIDENT'

Quote:

"It was just a tragic accident," older brother David said of Daniel's fall from the roof of 83 Meserole St. in Williamsburg on Thursday. "Nobody is to blame."

Younger brother Matt, who is expected to join the next class in the FDNY Academy this summer, echoed that sentiment.

"I agree completely," he said. "It doesn't matter, all of that. He was doing his job.

"It's a firefighter's job to go in, whether the building was legal or illegal. The outcome is still the same."

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

my favourite example of this is a plastic bag with the words: This Bag is Not A Toy.

No shit.

The only reason it is there is because people cannot or will not take responsibility. They would rather sue the manufacturer than admit that they left their child alone to play with a plastic bag (let's face it, the words on the bag are not intended for the child as they aren't likely to be able to read it).

Et tu, Charlatan? Et tu?

As the parent of a toddler, let me tell you that EVERYTHING is a toy. The current favorite is an empty pallet box (18" x 24" x 4"). He sit in it. He stands on it. He carries it around.

From the perspective of someone who writes liability insurance day in and day out and specializes in Product Liability (which is really what we're talking about here), let me say that you people are morons. By "you people" I mean the general public. Seriously, some of you amaze us by the fact that manage to remember to draw breathe.

Do you know why warnings show up on products? Because there was someone who did that, sued and won.

I understand why the civil courts exist, and I think that generally they do a good job. When someone is injured, either physically or financially, they deserve compensation. For arguement's sake, let's assume that this poor girl did nothing other than get on the ride (which is probably pretty close to the truth). She went up with her feet attached and came down without them. What weird notion of personal responsibility dictates that she doesn't deserve compensation for having her legs severed? At best, she's going to walk with a severe limp for the rest of her life. Either the park or the manufacturer messed up pretty badly, and they need to pay as a consequence. Actually, their insurance carrier will shoulder the majority of the burden.

Personal responsibility is fine and dandy, but corporate responsibility is harder to come by. Doing the right thing for customers who are injured is often very unpopular with shareholders since it cuts into the bottom line. If you are a manufacturer (or importer) you need to exercise due care with your product by knowing who the likely users are and what they're going to do with the product.

All the red Thomas the Tank Engine toys are currently being recalled because the Chinese manufacturer used a lead-based paint. As a parent of a child who is obsessed with trains and Thomas (in that order), it bothers me that the importer didn't bother with a very simple test to detect the lead. Someone else did it. If my child has lead poisoning because he's chewed on the toys, am I abdicating my personal responsibility by asking for compensation from the importer since they're the ones who poisoned my child in the first place?

Lady Sage · 06-25-2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Doesn't make it any less traumatic, sure, but it doesn't mean that those rides are evil and need torn down either.

Ahhhh but what if the ride is posessed like Christine the car?

(Pardon my poor attempt to interject some semblance of humor.)

Mister Coaster · 06-25-2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

For arguement's sake, let's assume that this poor girl did nothing other than get on the ride (which is probably pretty close to the truth). She went up with her feet attached and came down without them. What weird notion of personal responsibility dictates that she doesn't deserve compensation for having her legs severed?

I agree 100% with THIS CASE. She deserves compensation for this, BIG TIME.

I was talking about personal responsibility for accidents that ARE the fault of the dumbass that gets hurt/maimed/killed. Like the woman who deliberitely unfastened her seatbelt on the Raven and was ejected, or the kid on Big Thunder Mountain who exited the train while it was still in motion and got his feet crushed.

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 07:06 AM

MC - I agree that the two examples that you used share in the blame for their own injuries. However, designing rides that keep the riders locked in until the ride has stopped moving isn't that difficult. Do you know if either of these cases resulting in a large payout, though? When we see cases like this in my world, they generally have some expense payments attached with little or nothing paid. My favorite recent claim is a guy that was shot completely through a wood chipper. He was standing on the loading deck while it was being towed down a road kicking brush into it. The instruction manual clearly states not to do any of those things. He was completely chipped. The manufacturer spent about $5,000 getting themselves dismissed, but the guy's workers compensation kicked in a few hundred thousand dollars since that line of coverage doesn't differentiate liability.

warrrreagl · 06-25-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

From the perspective of someone who writes liability insurance day in and day out and specializes in Product Liability (which is really what we're talking about here), let me say that you people are morons. By "you people" I mean the general public. Seriously, some of you amaze us by the fact that manage to remember to draw breathe.

Now you definitely have my attention, Mr. Jazz. Here's a question that I heard asked once and I've never seen a satisfactory answer. What should a proper instruction sheet and warning label for a hammer contain in order to absolve the manufacturer from liability? Nothing fancy, just the plain old, garden-variety hammer. Pound nails with one end and pull them out with the other.

Cynthetiq · 06-25-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

Now you definitely have my attention, Mr. Jazz. Here's a question that I heard asked once and I've never seen a satisfactory answer. What should a proper instruction sheet and warning label for a hammer contain in order to absolve the manufacturer from liability? Nothing fancy, just the plain old, garden-variety hammer. Pound nails with one end and pull them out with the other.

Not for use with screws.

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

Now you definitely have my attention, Mr. Jazz. Here's a question that I heard asked once and I've never seen a satisfactory answer. What should a proper instruction sheet and warning label for a hammer contain in order to absolve the manufacturer from liability? Nothing fancy, just the plain old, garden-variety hammer. Pound nails with one end and pull them out with the other.

Let's assume for the moment that we're not talking about the head flying off and striking someone else (which I've seen before). That would be a defective product and open the manufacturer to potentially successful suits.

A warning label would not necessarily be needed. When we're talking about common products that most people would reasonably have an understanding of (yes Cyn, like screwdrivers), you don't need warning labels.

The instructions, if they existed, should state the best way to drive nails and the common mistakes that users make. Speaking generally of products, you need to figure out what the average drunken idiot is going to do wrong and tell them not to.

warrrreagl, the problem with your example is that the tool isn't complicated enough to really warrant labels or instructions. A better one would be socket wrenches, and you might actually need a warning not to use it as a hammer.

Charlatan · 06-25-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Et tu, Charlatan? Et tu?

Personal responsibility is fine and dandy, but corporate responsibility is harder to come by. Doing the right thing for customers who are injured is often very unpopular with shareholders since it cuts into the bottom line. If you are a manufacturer (or importer) you need to exercise due care with your product by knowing who the likely users are and what they're going to do with the product.

All the red Thomas the Tank Engine toys are currently being recalled because the Chinese manufacturer used a lead-based paint. As a parent of a child who is obsessed with trains and Thomas (in that order), it bothers me that the importer didn't bother with a very simple test to detect the lead. Someone else did it. If my child has lead poisoning because he's chewed on the toys, am I abdicating my personal responsibility by asking for compensation from the importer since they're the ones who poisoned my child in the first place?

I completely agree that there needs to be strong corporate responsibility. No question that a manufacturer using lead-based paints, or an item that malfunctions in course of its proper use (i.e. does not meet regulated safety standards) needs to fix their problem.

I recognize that kids like to play with boxes and packing detritus. I also recognize that someone likely sued the manufacturer (and the packing company and the retailer, etc.) because their kids suffocated while playing with a plastic bag.

My point is, we all know that a plastic bag is not a toy. It's means of conveyance. Most of us know that to put a plastic bag over your head is not a smart thing to do. The fact that someone's child played with a plastic bag and died is tragic but it is hardly the manufacturer's fault.

Finally I recognize that we live in litigious times. Corporations are open to all kinds of lawsuits (both meaningful and frivolous). They must print 'THIS IS NOT A TOY" to cover their as, just in case.

What I am saying is there is a big difference between making a Thomas with lead paint and making a plastic bag.

(Do grocery bags carry this warning? Can someone check please?)

edit: how is a plastic bag more complicated than a hammer?

ShaniFaye · 06-25-2007, 09:35 AM

I am sitting here with a plastic grocery store sack that I brought my lunch in...it says

Warning: to avoid danger of suffocation, please keep this plastic bag away from babies and children

Cynthetiq · 06-25-2007, 09:39 AM

well not only do we live in litigious times but also terrorist times. One cannot use an object for what it is not specifically labeled. I know that this was created initially for chemicals and cleaners.

Sears will not replace a broken Craftsman screwdriver that the handle was broken because you used it to hammer a screwdriver instead of using a chisel.

Charlatan · 06-25-2007, 09:57 AM

You are certainly allowed to use a screwdriver as a hammer if you wish. I just don't think Sears should replace it if it is damaged due to a use other than its intended purpose.

Mister Coaster · 06-25-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

MC - I agree that the two examples that you used share in the blame for their own injuries. However, designing rides that keep the riders locked in until the ride has stopped moving isn't that difficult. Do you know if either of these cases resulting in a large payout, though?

The Raven one - I don't think so. Disneyland, yes. In fact the Disneyland one prompted the mother to launch a movement to crack down on safety at parks.

The thing about restraints is... yeah, I suppose you could put in a 5-point racing harness that is computer locked with a double-redundancy failsafe. But is that necessary on something like Big Thunder? It's not particulary tall, not particularly fast, nor particularly jerky. It is still a roller coaster, though, and its restraints will keep a rider in their seats, as long as they are not TRYING to get out. Realistically, just about anyone can wiggle their way out of almost any restraint, if they really were trying.

What about rides that are not "thrill rides" at all, like Its A Small World? It has no restraint nor height minimum at all. Couldn't someone just get up, fall in the water and drown? It all comes back to personal responsibility, you don't get up/out of a moving ride vehicle, regardless of wether or not its moving fast.

MOST accidents at amusement parks are the result of rider misconduct or the ride operator not following designated operating procedure.

Cynthetiq · 06-25-2007, 10:11 AM

Ironically I played HitMan: Blood Money demo yesterday and it starts off with some Ferris Wheel collapsing because of disrepair and the park owner being negligent or something like that. It's the training level.

Man hires hitman to rub out the guy and show him picture of dead son from that accident as he dies.

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 10:25 AM

Mr. Coaster - I think you've kind of negated a portion of your arguement. If the Raven incident was rider error and didn't produce any big payout (as you seem to think), then how's that an example of your point? It seems to me to just be an example of the creation (and demise) of the better idiot.

If there was a payout at Disney (who's notoriously fantastic at risk management and lost-loss control), I imagine that there was some sort of negligent contribution on Disney's part. Either the ride malfunctioned or the operator screwed up. I know for a fact that Disney self-insures the first $1M of their general liability coverage (this is a GL claim) because it's in their annual report. That means that Disney wrote the check for at least that amount, and I don't remember reading about a judgement against them, although it's entirely possible that it happened and I missed it. If I have time tonight, I'm going to see what else I can find out about this case and report back.

Juries don't have a hard time recognizing who's an idiot and who's not. What they do have a problem with is feeling sorry for someone who's life was changed in a horrible way and will never be the same.

Mister Coaster · 06-25-2007, 10:36 AM

I'll sum up my major points and call it a day...

1. Rides are "safe" when all proper procedures are followed.
2. If someone deviated form the proper procedures and were hurt as a result of their own actions or neglect, they should not have the right to seek compensation.
3. If someone deviated form the proper procedures and were hurt as a result of someone else's actions or neglect, they should have the right to seek compensation.
4. If someone is hurt as a result of a malfunction, forseeable or not, they should have the right to seek compensation.

What has actually happened in the past (for or against a plaintiff) is irrelavent. I'm stating my opinions on how I think things should be. In general, amusement accidents (even ones that result in nobody being hurt) make for a big media feeding frenzy, and are blown way out of porportion.

See you in line?

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 10:56 AM

Oh, you'll definitely see me in line. I was told Saturday that I'll be the one taking the kids to Great America in Gurnee, which is fine by me.

I'll close this by saying that life is rarely as simple as your four points above and that a series of small missteps by a bunch of people can end up in a very bad day for one person. It is rare that one person is the only one to blame for an incident. Other people almost certainly contributed, knowingly or not.

spindles · 06-25-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I am sitting here with a plastic grocery store sack that I brought my lunch in...it says

Warning: to avoid danger of suffocation, please keep this plastic bag away from babies and children

There is no such warning on Australian grocery bags - and quite frankly I'm appalled that there would be any need to print one on their either.

shakran · 06-25-2007, 06:13 PM

What's all this crap about personal responsibility? We're talking about a cable that snapped when the ride had already started. If you can figure out how you'd have gotten out of that one as a passenger, please by all means do speak up.

What I see here is a poorly designed or tested ride. The cables should have sensors on them that engage the emergency brakes when they snap. Clearly they either didn't have them, or they didn't work. It's not the rider's fault at all.

Psycho Dad · 06-25-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

What should a proper instruction sheet and warning label for a hammer contain in order to absolve the manufacturer from liability?

Hammers often do have warning labels recommending the use of eye protection. Not that such a label is worth a fart in a whirlwind, but they're there.

SaltPork · 06-25-2007, 07:48 PM

by all accounts, that girl is two feet shorter....I know, I'm going to hell.

The_Jazz · 06-26-2007, 10:16 AM

I just got back from a lunch with an underwriter who does several of the device manufacturers for me. He pointed me to this website:

http://www.rideaccidents.com/

Pretty interesting.

Cynthetiq · 06-26-2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I just got back from a lunch with an underwriter who does several of the device manufacturers for me. He pointed me to this website:

http://www.rideaccidents.com/

Pretty interesting.

THANK YOU!!!! I have been looking for this for months...

I found it once when that employee died at Magic Mountain in 2004 and then forgot all about it.

It also paints a great picture as to what seems to be at fault for the most part... people, either the rider or the operator.

The_Jazz · 06-26-2007, 10:34 AM

Cyn - and anyone else for that matter - when it comes to this kind of stuff, you should think of me as a resource. I've got stuff like this all over the place. I have links that can tell you the results of the last 3 inspections of your grandmother's nursing home and ones that give you the safety records of every trucking company in the US. If you are looking for something like this, I might have it. If I don't, I probably know someone who does.

Interestingly enough 2 of my accounts are on the page that I linked to.

Also, I think that this is great proof to my theory that all people are morons from time to time and that our only hope of advancement as a species is to increase the intervals between the moron moments.

snowy · 06-26-2007, 11:48 AM

My teeth were paid for by the carnival. No joke.

Shortly after my 5th birthday, I was taken to a small carnival of rides at a Fourth of July celebration. My friend, age 13, and my mother were both with me, and my friend offered to take me on the bumper cars. We got on, and she tried to belt me up. The belt was a loop that fit around one's torso to hold one in the car. We only got the belt as far as my neck before the ride began. The ride operator hadn't bothered to check that everyone was belted properly, and our car ran straight into the barrier. My head jerked forward and I landed teeth-first on the dash. Blood everywhere, all the ride operator does is stop the ride, pick me up, and hand me over to my mother--nothing more. My mom had to rush me to the emergency room as they thought I might have crushed my trachea--I was having trouble breathing. Luckily, my injuries only amounted to two teeth that had to be pulled because they hadn't been knocked out completely, one tooth that had to be removed because it died due to the damage to the neighboring teeth, and a bruised (not crushed) trachea.

The company, Rainier Shows, refused to reimburse my father the copayments for my medical and dental bills. So, naturally, my father went to his attorney, the attorney wrote a very nice letter, and the company ended up having to pay more to settle than they would have if they had just paid for my copayments. The money mostly went for further reconstructive surgery on my mouth to make sure that my teeth grew in straight despite the damage done to my mouth.

I still have a very nice smile. Thank you, Rainier Shows.

06-22-2007, 07:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Amusement park ride manufacturers are a decent sized portion of the insurance deals that I see. There aren't that many out there, and most of them have had an incident like this. I think that we're going to find out that this was caused by either poor maintenance or operator error. It's also possible that she did something stupid, although that doesn't sound like a real possibility given that this is a leg injury. If it were a hand or arm, it was most likely caused by her putting it somewhere it wasn't supposed to be. Like I said, there's only a low chance that will prove to be the cause, but it's a chance. Although I'm sure she'd rather have her legs, she's most likely looking at around $4M ($2M for each leg) in settlements. The risk manager of the park, and his insurance carriers, probably just got out the checkbook. They don't want this to go to court. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-22-2007, 07:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	as an avid roller coaster rider, I keep abreast of these kinds of accidents more like a running tab in my head. The last one I specifically know of was a death at Magic Mountain in Valencia CA and Skogafoss and I happened to be there. An operator crossed the tracks where she should not have and was struck and killed. We still haven't rode that coaster for one reason or another. There isn't any real way of finding out what the accident rates are since they aren't published or aggregated. Of course a website steps up and puts it together. http://www.themeparkinsider.com/accidents/list.cfm __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-22-2007, 08:20 AM	#6 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Mister Coaster, I think that warrrreagl means that everything is dangerous, not just amusement parks. Like crossing the street. Or riding in a car. I don't have any direct knowledge of S&S Power's loss history, but as a class of business thrill rides as a whole experience about 2 fatalities and 10 major injuries a year. Interestingly enough, a reinsurance friend of mine called since I last posted, and he's working on roller coaster manufacturer that he and I wrote together and lost a couple of years ago. We discussed this occurrence, and that's where the numbers above came from. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-22-2007, 08:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Loss of limb generally speaking but the insurance definition also includes closed head injury, paralysis, persistant coma or organ failure. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-22-2007, 09:50 AM	#9 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	While this is tragic and heart-wrenching, shit happens at these places. They are however, very safe. If I could I would be at Cedar Point and Kings Island 24/7.... you just have to be alert, aware and know that accidents happen, they are called accidents for a reason. If they were planned, they would be called planned events. BTW, I think this is the death knell for 6 Flags however, I think they needed heavy attendance this year and it won't happen now. I think we'll see the long awaited merger/buyout from Cedar Fair. So if you are a stock person, take advantage, buy up shares of Cedar Fair (FUN) and 6 Flags (SIX). It's going to happen because 6 Flags have been losing their asses for sometime and the day they buy 40% interest in Dick Clark Productions they have one of the worst tragedies in their company's history? They are done. Cedar Fair bought up all the Paramount/CBS/Viacom parks and did so cheaply last year, in part to help with CBS/Viacom to afford the merger, even though this was just a drop in the bucket and they are still debt riddled. Overall, gruesome heartlessness aside, the big winner will be Six Flag investors, who hold until Cedar Fair buys them out and Cedar Fair as another competitor bites the big one and drops out leaving only 3 others, Disney, Universal and Busch. And I see Busch getting out soon. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 06-22-2007 at 09:53 AM..

06-22-2007, 10:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	...gruesome heartlessness aside? LOL. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

06-23-2007, 10:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Mister Coaster, thank you for your reply. You raised some very interesting points, but I think I just need to find a better way to state my observation. The Jazz was correct that I wasn’t addressing historical park safety or ride construction quality or any of those specific issues. My comment had more to do with a broad observation about what I perceive to be a growing trend among Americans in our reaction to the human condition in relation to general safety. When I read the eyewitness’ quote, I saw two different meanings within the context. On one level, the quote was addressing the shock and horror of what they had just seen with their own eyes. On another level, they seemed to be expressing disbelief that an amusement park ride in this day and age could be unsafe. And it was this second part that I had been attempting to tackle with my original post. I got the feeling they were living under the dangerous illusion that perils and hazards had somehow been regulated out of American life. Since I see this reaction more and more frequently, I am disturbed by this mentality. I saw the same types of reactionary quotes last week after those unfortunate people in Tennessee were killed by a dragster that lost control and plunged into the crowd lining the roadway. To paraphrase, they seemed to be saying, “Why weren’t we more protected? Why weren’t there more regulations, codes, and standards to protect us from such a deadly situation?” Contrarily, my decidedly unsympathetic reaction was, “If you were so concerned about safety, why were you standing on the shoulder of the road to watch a drag race? And how can you have the nerve to act surprised when someone got hurt?” Grancey and I are at the beach this weekend, and I see the same reaction dangerously permeate the most mundane aspects of life. For example, there is a unified flagpole warning system up and down the beach, and we see family after family ignore the red flags. They all seem to say, “Nothing can happen to us. This is a state-owned beach, for crying out loud. They wouldn’t let people swim here if it were dangerous.” Or coming home from the movie theater tonight we kept dodging groups of people who would casually walk across the US Highway to get to their cars, oblivious to the fact that if it’s night then I can’t see them because of the oncoming traffic’s headlights. And when I would pass by them after swerving they would glare at me as if saying, “Watch it – we had the right of way.” I guess they’d rather be dead and technically correct rather than alive and safe. Life itself is dangerous. Over-regulation of safety issues seems to be producing a generation of Americans who don’t think about taking responsibility for their own safety – they just wait for government regulations to do their thinking for them. And when people stop thinking about safety because they think they’re safe, they get hurt in a big way. This position of mine has nothing to do with the girl who lost her feet. But as I said, I was addressing the eyewitness’ comments about her accident and not the accident itself. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

06-24-2007, 07:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Lets face it, personal responsibility went out the window a long time ago here in the US. Thank lawyers/frivioulous lawsuits for that. Sometimes, no matter how many safety regulations are in place, or how careful someone is, you are just that one in a million "wrong place at the wrong time" person. Going back to the theme park issue, I have been on several coasters where riders have been killed. In fact I plan on riding the Raven at Holiday World in the very same seat where a dumbass lady removed her seatbelt and was ejected. I'll have the seatbelt well in place, thankyouverymuch. People should feel safe at amusement parks, as long as they follow the rules. I guess it boils down to "shit happens." Personally, I'm not changing my lifestyle because of one person's worst case censerio coming to life. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

06-24-2007, 09:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
tenniels Insane Location: Oh Canada!!	warrrreagl, I really agree with what you wrote. People seem to think things just aren't dangerous anymore, someone should be protecting us at all times. As for the original subject, I feel really bad for the girl, but have to agree that it is just a freak accident. Still sucks for her though. __________________ I like things. And stuff. But I prefer to have things over stuff.

06-25-2007, 07:06 AM	#20 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	MC - I agree that the two examples that you used share in the blame for their own injuries. However, designing rides that keep the riders locked in until the ride has stopped moving isn't that difficult. Do you know if either of these cases resulting in a large payout, though? When we see cases like this in my world, they generally have some expense payments attached with little or nothing paid. My favorite recent claim is a guy that was shot completely through a wood chipper. He was standing on the loading deck while it was being towed down a road kicking brush into it. The instruction manual clearly states not to do any of those things. He was completely chipped. The manufacturer spent about $5,000 getting themselves dismissed, but the guy's workers compensation kicked in a few hundred thousand dollars since that line of coverage doesn't differentiate liability. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-25-2007, 09:35 AM	#25 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I am sitting here with a plastic grocery store sack that I brought my lunch in...it says Warning: to avoid danger of suffocation, please keep this plastic bag away from babies and children __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-25-2007, 09:39 AM	#26 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	well not only do we live in litigious times but also terrorist times. One cannot use an object for what it is not specifically labeled. I know that this was created initially for chemicals and cleaners. Sears will not replace a broken Craftsman screwdriver that the handle was broken because you used it to hammer a screwdriver instead of using a chisel. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-25-2007, 09:57 AM	#27 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	You are certainly allowed to use a screwdriver as a hammer if you wish. I just don't think Sears should replace it if it is damaged due to a use other than its intended purpose. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-25-2007, 10:11 AM	#29 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Ironically I played HitMan: Blood Money demo yesterday and it starts off with some Ferris Wheel collapsing because of disrepair and the park owner being negligent or something like that. It's the training level. Man hires hitman to rub out the guy and show him picture of dead son from that accident as he dies. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-25-2007, 10:25 AM	#30 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Mr. Coaster - I think you've kind of negated a portion of your arguement. If the Raven incident was rider error and didn't produce any big payout (as you seem to think), then how's that an example of your point? It seems to me to just be an example of the creation (and demise) of the better idiot. If there was a payout at Disney (who's notoriously fantastic at risk management and lost-loss control), I imagine that there was some sort of negligent contribution on Disney's part. Either the ride malfunctioned or the operator screwed up. I know for a fact that Disney self-insures the first $1M of their general liability coverage (this is a GL claim) because it's in their annual report. That means that Disney wrote the check for at least that amount, and I don't remember reading about a judgement against them, although it's entirely possible that it happened and I missed it. If I have time tonight, I'm going to see what else I can find out about this case and report back. Juries don't have a hard time recognizing who's an idiot and who's not. What they do have a problem with is feeling sorry for someone who's life was changed in a horrible way and will never be the same. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-25-2007, 10:36 AM	#31 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	I'll sum up my major points and call it a day... 1. Rides are "safe" when all proper procedures are followed. 2. If someone deviated form the proper procedures and were hurt as a result of their own actions or neglect, they should not have the right to seek compensation. 3. If someone deviated form the proper procedures and were hurt as a result of someone else's actions or neglect, they should have the right to seek compensation. 4. If someone is hurt as a result of a malfunction, forseeable or not, they should have the right to seek compensation. What has actually happened in the past (for or against a plaintiff) is irrelavent. I'm stating my opinions on how I think things should be. In general, amusement accidents (even ones that result in nobody being hurt) make for a big media feeding frenzy, and are blown way out of porportion. See you in line? __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

06-25-2007, 10:56 AM	#32 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Oh, you'll definitely see me in line. I was told Saturday that I'll be the one taking the kids to Great America in Gurnee, which is fine by me. I'll close this by saying that life is rarely as simple as your four points above and that a series of small missteps by a bunch of people can end up in a very bad day for one person. It is rare that one person is the only one to blame for an incident. Other people almost certainly contributed, knowingly or not. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-25-2007, 06:13 PM	#34 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	What's all this crap about personal responsibility? We're talking about a cable that snapped when the ride had already started. If you can figure out how you'd have gotten out of that one as a passenger, please by all means do speak up. What I see here is a poorly designed or tested ride. The cables should have sensors on them that engage the emergency brakes when they snap. Clearly they either didn't have them, or they didn't work. It's not the rider's fault at all.

06-25-2007, 07:48 PM	#36 (permalink)
SaltPork Everything's better with bacon Location: In your local grocer's freezer.	by all accounts, that girl is two feet shorter....I know, I'm going to hell. __________________ It was like that when I got here....I swear.

06-26-2007, 10:16 AM	#37 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I just got back from a lunch with an underwriter who does several of the device manufacturers for me. He pointed me to this website: http://www.rideaccidents.com/ Pretty interesting. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-26-2007, 10:34 AM	#39 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Cyn - and anyone else for that matter - when it comes to this kind of stuff, you should think of me as a resource. I've got stuff like this all over the place. I have links that can tell you the results of the last 3 inspections of your grandmother's nursing home and ones that give you the safety records of every trucking company in the US. If you are looking for something like this, I might have it. If I don't, I probably know someone who does. Interestingly enough 2 of my accounts are on the page that I linked to. Also, I think that this is great proof to my theory that all people are morons from time to time and that our only hope of advancement as a species is to increase the intervals between the moron moments. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-26-2007, 11:48 AM	#40 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	My teeth were paid for by the carnival. No joke. Shortly after my 5th birthday, I was taken to a small carnival of rides at a Fourth of July celebration. My friend, age 13, and my mother were both with me, and my friend offered to take me on the bumper cars. We got on, and she tried to belt me up. The belt was a loop that fit around one's torso to hold one in the car. We only got the belt as far as my neck before the ride began. The ride operator hadn't bothered to check that everyone was belted properly, and our car ran straight into the barrier. My head jerked forward and I landed teeth-first on the dash. Blood everywhere, all the ride operator does is stop the ride, pick me up, and hand me over to my mother--nothing more. My mom had to rush me to the emergency room as they thought I might have crushed my trachea--I was having trouble breathing. Luckily, my injuries only amounted to two teeth that had to be pulled because they hadn't been knocked out completely, one tooth that had to be removed because it died due to the damage to the neighboring teeth, and a bruised (not crushed) trachea. The company, Rainier Shows, refused to reimburse my father the copayments for my medical and dental bills. So, naturally, my father went to his attorney, the attorney wrote a very nice letter, and the company ended up having to pay more to settle than they would have if they had just paid for my copayments. The money mostly went for further reconstructive surgery on my mouth to make sure that my teeth grew in straight despite the damage done to my mouth. I still have a very nice smile. Thank you, Rainier Shows. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau