Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - The Public vs. Private Internet... or should I join Facebook

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The Public vs. Private Internet... or should I join Facebook

For those who don't peruse the threads in Nonsense, Onesnowyowl has started a thread letting people know that she has started a Global TFP group on Facebook.

I read this post by Fresnelly and thought it was worthy of a greater discussion than being relegated to wilds of Nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresnelly

I'm actually a bit torn about joing the group in a fully public forum. I'm certainly not "ashamed" of being in the TFP, but Facebook represents a different community to me. It's my real life friends and family, co-workers and colleagues and my gut says to keep them separate from here.

Here is where I can be a bit playfull and naughty. There is a place to keep updated with old friends.

I'm not totally opposed to melding these two worlds and I'd be happy to add any of you to my Friend list in an instant, but the group invite is still sitting in my message board. Any thoughts?

I admit that I have been troubled by exactly the same conundrum. Facebook is a very much a different approach to the Internet. Unlike most discussion boards, people do not create an Internet persona, rather they use their real names and face and interact with friends, family and business colleagues.

I am not so sure that I wish to share my TFP life with those people. I am still thinking about this and have also left the invite to the TFP group untouched as of yet.

I am honestly curious of what others think as well. I am not looking for a conversation about facebook, per se, rather this tension between the public and private (or the various layers of our constructed personae if you will).

How do you feel about this issue?

Charlatan, I assume your concern is about your family or IRL colleagues finding you here, not about TFPers finding you on facebook, right?

I have TFP listed as an interest in my profile, and I've mentioned it (even in the context of meeting people from the internet) to my familiy. I guess I figure that the people I'd be uncomfortable about wouldn't really bother to find the place, sign up, and stick around long enough to figure out who I was... Then again, the only things here that are more or different from what I say in real life are parts of my journal entries. So I guess I have less at stake than a lot of others.

This doesn't really have much to do with my internet persona being different from my "real" self. But I think that's because I'm a relatively private person. If there is something that I don't want to share, I don't share it with anyone. I don't really do separate "layers" for different groups of people that much.

I can completely understand it. I look up on TFP as a kind of an inner sanctum, where I am what I am with no apologies or explainations. I actually got to a point where I regretted inviting some people, because, well, I realized I could be freer here with those bonds interfering.

It also made me realize I should stop hiding some of these aspect of my personality, if they didn't like it, they can leave!

But in other areas of my life I am something of an authority figure, and I would be loathe to lose that persona, that presentation to the appropriate people in my life.

To be honest, I know nothing of Facebook. Have not yet had the time to investigate it. But I do think this is an interesting conundrum.

I have never actually looked into facebook, but will do so now. If only to see how the two might mesh.

Yeah......I joined....seems harmless enough. Truth be told, if someone has enough interest in you, to want to know more.....they can.

Facebook or not.

ubertuber: yes, that's right.

it is the "real life" people finding me here rather than the other way around (real life is a weird term, it makes the assumption that TFP is not part of my real life).

My biggest concern is that my business colleagues or potential (or current) employers may stumble on this place and all the things I have admitted to here. There is a big difference between what is appropriate in a place like the TFP and what is appropriate in other aspects of my life.

Context is everything and sites like facebook bring those contexts together and create a weird tension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

If it worries you, change a few letters in your name....we still know who you are, and a search engine is fooled.

I did.

And herein lies one of my great challenges with TFP.

I'm most definitely not ashamed of any post or thread that I've been involved in. The vast majority are completely innocuous and would never offend anyone who knows me IRL. I haven't been particularly careful about hiding who I am, and my internet personality matches the real me close enough that I don't think there's any difference. I know that there are others that create a separate identity, but I have neither the time nor inclination to do so. If you tried to find me, I think I've left enough clues to track me down with relative ease.

That said, I don't particularly want the intrusion of my friends and coworkers. I like the ability to vent about someone or something without any repercussions in my personal life. I was thinking today that I need to do a quick journal entry to complain about someone making me take a quota share on something when they should be giving me full limits (yes, I know I'm a nerd and talking shop, but that's my point). I spend time at TFP because I can take off the salesman hat a dozen times a day and just be me. Tomorrow, I'm on the road all day, and it will remain on all day while I'm visiting clients, but I doubt it.

This is a sanctuary for me where I can be more intellectual and think through the minute details of what's in front of my rather than have to filter it to make it more palatable for someone else.

In short, have fun on Facebook; I won't be joining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

And that's the part that concerns me as well.

If I were to join Facebook it would be unrelated to TFP.

Think of this, there are many stories of people who's naked pictures got out and that's from here that is supposed to have been a private forum. Now, you have admissions of thoughts, those thoughts could be different than what potential employers want out of a potential employee.

It has happened already and will only get worse as HR people and HR services dig up people online.

And I don't get the point of enjoining other forums out there from MySpace to Facebook. If you want everyone in your circle to be here, then invite them already. So far of the 4 people that I've invited only 2 remain.

enjoy and have fun there.

That's an interesting point of view that I hadn't really considered before. I'm so new to the whole facebook experience, and so far have only had good experiences with it. I've never considered the implications of being in a tfp group on facebook and whether it would lead my employer back to this place. Aside from a nude photo or two, and let me be frank here, on ships, we could singlehandedly keep the pornography industry alive!

So far, I'm not too worried about the implications.

A great many of the people I have friended on Facebook who I know through TFP are people I would say I know something about in real life as well--meaning I know where they live, what they do, etc--and vice-versa. A lot of people on here know my name and where I live, and I have the choice on Facebook to limit how much they can or cannot see. I have no issue with what they can see, provided they don't mind seeing pictures of me piss-ass drunk.

I guess for me there is very little difference between the public/private me but I am still protective of the private me. I am fairly open yet guarded even online--for instance, Facebook is the only place you will ever be able to find a remotely inappropriate picture of myself associated with my real name, and even then it's not publicly viewable--just as it wouldn't be here, either.

Given that there are tons of privacy features on Facebook, I find it easy to share there, just as I find it easy to share here, and Facebook becomes a natural bridge between "onesnowyowl" and my "real" persona.

I Google myself on a regular basis to see what pops up--and nothing that connects my real name to onesnowyowl ever comes up. I also keep an eye on things that ARE related to my actual persona--though truth be told, I'm one of many with my name and my connection to where I live.

why would i want to be associated with this facebook thing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

You may not be worried about the implications, people post things here, then later on askt eh mods to take them down a year or two later...

here's an NYTimes article from last year.

Quote:

June 11, 2006
For Some, Online Persona Undermines a Résumé
By ALAN FINDER
link
When a small consulting company in Chicago was looking to hire a summer intern this month, the company's president went online to check on a promising candidate who had just graduated from the University of Illinois.

At Facebook, a popular social networking site, the executive found the candidate's Web page with this description of his interests: "smokin' blunts" (cigars hollowed out and stuffed with marijuana), shooting people and obsessive sex, all described in vivid slang.

It did not matter that the student was clearly posturing. He was done.

"A lot of it makes me think, what kind of judgment does this person have?" said the company's president, Brad Karsh. "Why are you allowing this to be viewed publicly, effectively, or semipublicly?"

Many companies that recruit on college campuses have been using search engines like Google and Yahoo to conduct background checks on seniors looking for their first job. But now, college career counselors and other experts say, some recruiters are looking up applicants on social networking sites like Facebook, MySpace, Xanga and Friendster, where college students often post risqué or teasing photographs and provocative comments about drinking, recreational drug use and sexual exploits in what some mistakenly believe is relative privacy.

When viewed by corporate recruiters or admissions officials at graduate and professional schools, such pages can make students look immature and unprofessional, at best.

"It's a growing phenomenon," said Michael Sciola, director of the career resource center at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Conn. "There are lots of employers that Google. Now they've taken the next step."

At New York University, recruiters from about 30 companies told career counselors that they were looking at the sites, said Trudy G. Steinfeld, executive director of the center for career development.

"The term they've used over and over is red flags," Ms. Steinfeld said. "Is there something about their lifestyle that we might find questionable or that we might find goes against the core values of our corporation?"

Facebook and MySpace are only two years old but have attracted millions of avid young participants, who mingle online by sharing biographical and other information, often intended to show how funny, cool or outrageous they are.

On MySpace and similar sites, personal pages are generally available to anyone who registers, with few restrictions on who can register. Facebook, though, has separate requirements for different categories of users; college students must have a college e-mail address to register. Personal pages on Facebook are restricted to friends and others on the user's campus, leading many students to assume that they are relatively private.

But companies can gain access to the information in several ways. Employees who are recent graduates often retain their college e-mail addresses, which enables them to see pages. Sometimes, too, companies ask college students working as interns to perform online background checks, said Patricia Rose, the director of career services at the University of Pennsylvania.

Concerns have already been raised about these and other Internet sites, including their potential misuse by stalkers and students exposing their own misbehavior, for example by posting photographs of hazing by college sports teams. Add to the list of unintended consequences the new hurdles for the job search.

Ana Homayoun runs Green Ivy Educational Consulting, a small firm that tutors and teaches organizational skills to high school students in the San Francisco area. Ms. Homayoun visited Duke University this spring for an alumni weekend and while there planned to interview a promising job applicant.

Curious about the candidate, Ms. Homayoun went to her page on Facebook. She found explicit photographs and commentary about the student's sexual escapades, drinking and pot smoking, including testimonials from friends. Among the pictures were shots of the young woman passed out after drinking.

"I was just shocked by the amount of stuff that she was willing to publicly display," Ms. Homayoun said. "When I saw that, I thought, 'O.K., so much for that.' "

Ms. Rose said a recruiter had told her he rejected an applicant after searching the name of the student, a chemical engineering major, on Google. Among the things the recruiter found, she said, was this remark: "I like to blow things up."

Occasionally students find evidence online that may explain why a job search is foundering. Tien Nguyen, a senior at the University of California, Los Angeles, signed up for interviews on campus with corporate recruiters, beginning last fall, but he was seldom invited.

A friend suggested in February that Mr. Nguyen research himself on Google. He found a link to a satirical essay, titled "Lying Your Way to the Top," that he had published last summer on a Web site for college students. He asked that the essay be removed. Soon, he began to be invited to job interviews, and he has now received several offers.

"I never really considered that employers would do something like that," he said. "I thought they would just look at your résumé and grades."

Jennifer Floren is chief executive of Experience Inc., which provides online information about jobs and employers to students at 3,800 universities. "This is really the first time that we've seen that stage of life captured in a kind of time capsule and in a public way," Ms. Floren said. "It has its place, but it's moving from a fraternity or sorority living room. It's now in a public arena."

Some companies, including Enterprise Rent-a-Car, Ernst & Young and Osram Sylvania, said they did not use the Internet to check on college job applicants.

"I'd rather not see that part of them," said Maureen Crawford Hentz, manager of talent acquisition at Osram Sylvania. "I don't think it's related to their bona fide occupational qualifications."

More than a half-dozen major corporations, including Morgan Stanley, Dell, Pfizer, L'Oréal and Goldman Sachs, turned down or did not respond to requests for interviews.

But other companies, particularly those involved in the digital world like Microsoft and Métier, a small software company in Washington, D.C., said researching students through social networking sites was now fairly typical. "It's becoming very much a common tool," said Warren Ashton, group marketing manager at Microsoft. "For the first time ever, you suddenly have very public information about almost any candidate."

At Microsoft, Mr. Ashton said, recruiters are given broad latitude over how to work, and there is no formal policy about using the Internet to research applicants. "There are certain recruiters and certain companies that are probably more in tune with the new technologies than others are," he said.

Microsoft and Osram Sylvania have also begun to use networking sites in a different way, participating openly in online communities to get out their company's messages and to identify talented job candidates.

Students may not know when they have been passed up for an interview or a job offer because of something a recruiter saw on the Internet. But more than a dozen college career counselors said recruiters had been telling them since last fall about incidents in which students' online writing or photographs had raised serious questions about their judgment, eliminating them as job candidates.

Some college career executives are skeptical that many employers routinely check applicants online. "My observation is that it's more fiction than fact," said Tom Devlin, director of the career center at the University of California, Berkeley.

At a conference in late May, Mr. Devlin said, he asked 40 employers if they researched students online and every one said no.

Many career counselors have been urging students to review their pages on Facebook and other sites with fresh eyes, removing photographs or text that may be inappropriate to show to their grandmother or potential employers. Counselors are also encouraging students to apply settings on Facebook that can significantly limit access to their pages.

Melanie Deitch, director of marketing at Facebook, said students should take advantage of the site's privacy settings and be smart about what they post. But students may not be following the advice.

"I think students have the view that Facebook is their space and that the adult world doesn't know about it," said Mark W. Smith, assistant vice chancellor and director of the career center at Washington University in St. Louis. "But the adult world is starting to come in."

I actually read that article before. Again, I'm not too worried about my facebook profile leading potential employers back to here. While it is true that many of my fellow student at university have facebook profiles like they describe in that article, mine is pretty tame.

However, I just discovered a rather interesting (or scary) side effect of facebook. I was browsing my network and recognized many women from dating sites. In some cases, aside from their real names, there was personally identifiable pictures - I recognized neighbourhoods and in some cases houses in the backgrounds.

shit, i feel awkward enough having "tfp" as a friend on myspace. i don't really keep anything i'm embarrassed of on my myspace page; frankly, i never use it. i don't think i've really admitted anything i'd be worried about, persay, on tfp. i am who i am who i am. that said, i can imagine certain employers, particularly older conservative employers, being a little thrown by the overall culture of the tfp. i've thought about it before, but frankly given what i do and the fact that i don't use my real name on myspace or tfp, i'm not that worried about it. i've given my real name to certain tfp members, but in general - i'd personally not want to have that crossing of facets of my life. mostly a control issue. i enjoy this space because i get opinions from a vast array of people who are completely disparate from my "real life" existence, and yet who i frequently feel strangely close to. i don't know that i'd necessarily want anyone from my "real life" creeping in here. some of them, yes. tfp is almost like a particular kind of intellectual filter; there are many tfp'ers i'd love to meet in "real life," but i don't know that i'd be as interested in many people i interact with in "real life" necessarily crossing over into tfp. i like this because its a different perspective.

I don't want any of my other friends to know I've joined TFP, I prefer to keep my IRL and online lives far apart, thank you very much.

It's an interesting dilemma. I don't think I've crafted different personas online and offline, and I've probably left enough clues here and there that a TFPer might be able to track me down if they really felt like it; that doesn't particularly bother me. But a direct and transparent link between the real and the virtual would disorient me a little. The separateness of this online life is something I have taken for granted, even if I can't logically justify it (i.e. there's nothing in here that I would particularly want to keep from people I know well in real life, and vice versa). It's just a gut reaction against the casual mixing of the two.

Even though they have nearly-identical personalities, I've thought of hiredgun and real-hiredgun as two separate persons for so long that its bizarre to imagine merging them. I can't really explain it beyond that. Maybe a psychologist in here can figure out why I feel this way ;).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laugh-O-Matic

I don't want any of my other friends to know I've joined TFP, I prefer to keep my IRL and online lives far apart, thank you very much.

Bingo! I "do" have freinds I can trust, but it's nice being able to obtain unbiased opinions from others who have nothing to gain from it.

I don't have different online "personae," but there are certainly things I may say or discuss here that I would prefer some people I know in person not read. The fact is, there are things I'd rather not deal with my friends - or, worse yet, employers - knowing about me. This is not out of shame, but simply a recognition that not everyone needs to know everything about me. As such, I'm happy to add people as friends on facebook, but I won't be joining any TFP groups.

When I first joined TFP 5 years ago, the internet didn't seem like the public place it is now. Friendster hadn't even started yet, let alone MySpace or Facebook. I didn't think twice when using the same username that I use for everything else on the internet and which my friends know me by online. If I were to sign up today, I would use a different username to help distance some things I discuss here from people who may know me in real life. In fact, I've been wrestling with the thought of creating an alternate online ID for some time now. Doing a Google search of my real name yields nothing of concern, but anyone who knows my standard online handle can easily trace me here, and they don't even need to register to read some things I'd rather they don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

My situation exactly. I wish I hadn't used the same username, I really do.

Oh, in passing, is anyone on Orkut?

Google's networking site.

A little story: When I signed up here, I used a name that would be recognizable to a very few-it's a play on an old site name I had. I liked TFP so much, I put a link to it on that site.
I went on a 4 day trip and while I was gone, the spouse went to that site and, finding the link to here, clicked on it. It didn't take him much thought to figure out who I was and read everything I posted, including my lament about my marriage and my not-so-good confessions about fooling around behind his back.
Nope, ain't joining anything that even has the remotest possibility of having me be found again. I don't know who is in Facebook. I enjoy TFP, but it has to be a separate thing.

I'm not ashamed of anything I do or say at TFP, but that doesn't mean I want just anyone who happens to meet me to know about it. Here, I can express all the facets of my personality where it is not practical nor prudent to do so in my interactions out in the "real world." I'm happy to keep them separate and am thankful that TFP affords me the opportunity to do so. Why mess with a good thing?

I thought joining the tfp facebook group was fun at first but then, why come here if everyone is there? so i left the group. anyone still wanting to add me on their friends list can do so but i'd rather not. PM me here instead if you want to talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

why would i want to be associated with this facebook thing?

Agreed. I find this forum to be a sufficient means of communication. I don't want to have to go to multiple places in order to find out about my TFP buddies.

And I also reflect all of Charlatan's concerns: while the "me" who is here is not made up, it has many components that I am not ready to share with others. Thus, this is the only place that I am Redlemon.

Well, crap. Now you've all made me a little more nervous. I left the group... but dammit, I am keeping the friends. (Frankly, this is all Charlatan's fault, anyhow.)

I do prefer to keep TFP for myself... I know it's selfish. I just like having a place to be safe. It's not like I haven't made some cross-connections, or that I've ever posted nude or anything... it's that I could if I wanted to. I am completely myself here, and anywhere that I have representations of me. But this is more of myself than usual.

I have both myspace and facebook (never use facebook though).

I have 1 person from TFP on my myspace and thats it, and she doesn't mix the two there. It's a different level on anonymity for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I had a similar thing happen a couple years ago. I let a guy I had recently started dating know about TFP, and how involved I was with it (all my friends are quite used to "On TFP we were talking about..."), and he got on the site (no problem with that) and then proceeded to read some very revealing journal entries I had made, including one about him (a debate whether or not to keep my fuckbuddy while dating this guy...oops).

Needless to say...we kind of drifted apart after that.

My current SO still hasn't joined TFP, won't join TFP, has no desire to join TFP, yet will accompany to any TFP meetup I ask him to. He generally likes the people here, but respects that this is my private Internet space. And I love that about him.

Personally, I joined TFP as a private refuge, taking advantage of the anonymity of the Intertubes. I have a profile on facebook and have absolutely no interest in sharing the two. It's kinda interesting to me that I can be completely open and honest in view of random people on the Internet, yet wouldn't really open up like this in front of my closest friends. I'd be kinda freaked out if my friends knew about the kinda stuff I'm willing to share about here (yes, I just joined, but want to participate in discussions ranging from sex to sports to TV, etc.).

This has been a very helpful thread. I was feeling a bit guilty for avoiding joining but it has clarified my thoughts.

I've decided not to join the Facebook TFP for two basic reasons:

1.) TFP exists here already in full form and the duplication is unecessary for me.
2.) Employers and Clients just wouldn't understand.

Hmm now you have me thinking. I didn't joing the myspace group for the same reasons. I love TFP and have admitted things here that my family doesn't know about me. My husband knows yes, not the rest of my family.

I just joined facebook however when someone mentioned it in chat the other day. I have the choice to not add or tell my family I have one. Only added some close friends who know me very well so far. And a couple I haven't heard from in years and if they stumble here and read things I've said and don't like it, oh well. I think for now I will stay in the tfp facebook group.

After being gone off tfp for awhile and coming back I decided it was about time I really got to know some of the members. How is it that I've been here so long and truly hadn't talked to anyone or put myself out there to make good friends. This will be a test for me. /ramble

I'm on facebook and it really doesn't have the same interactive element as tfp, it just looks more like a popularity contest.