..
 

..

If you're an atheist, they're all "crazy," and all cults, religions, or just belief groups, depending on how you define the term.

Christianity is just as much a "cult" as Scientology, to me, but I find very little meaning in the words themselves.

two characters

It's a business.

Most organized religions are run like a "business".

I tend to ascribe the idea that cults are just a "religion" that isn't mainstream. Given the popularity and spread of Scientology I'd say it's inching towards legitimacy.

I've always taken cult to mean an extreme kind of religion, marked by stuff like massive insulation from the nonbelieving world and a reverence for church leader(s) as though they were infallible or close to it. Perhaps 'cult' could be the name for the extreme end of a continuum; a religion's closer to being a cult as it acquires more authoritarian, xenophobic, and brainwashing characteristics.

So by that distinction, I'd say that your average Catholic church has a few cultish tendencies but not many, Scientology a few more, certain fundy groups a few more still, and then ranking highest up in kool-aid units per follower would be groups like Heaven's Gate. Definitely a lot of room for debate here, and I could be a bit off on those estimates, but I think there's some significant differences between your local unitarian religious group and the Children of God cult.

Scientology is science fiction manufactured into a scam. It's neither religion or cult. At least most other religions are based in fantasy instead of science fiction. Speaking of which, why do they always play fantasy on the Sci Fi channel?

Nah, it's a cult, and therefore became a religion for some people.
Science fiction has always been fantasy, except where it's been realized.

:eek: you don't want fantasies making sense, after all:thumbsup:

the difference between a cult and a religion is attendance.

Here's a thought... Paul took the Cult of Christ, a Jewish cult, and made it palatable to Gentiles at large. He spent the rest of his life profiting from his efforts. His letters are, after, instructions to his followers on how to best carry on and spread the Good News.

Mohammed's cult isn't all that far removed.

Catholicism was a Big money maker at it height. Big.

How will people view Scientology in a couple Millenia? Who will be the Martin Luther of Scientology?

..

We don't want our fantasies making sense, after all.

two characters

The difference is the same as the difference between The Lord of the Rings and Starwars. One is fantasy, one is science fiction.

This thread inspired me to re-watch that South Park episode about Scientology.

That is one hilarious fucking episode.

...And people deny there being a distinct anti-Scientologist air to TFP.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D :D

..

You are right about parts of the Bible being "historical". It is firm belief, by many, that the first five books of the OT are historical that is fantasy. It is the loaves and fishes, raising the dead and resurrection that are difficult to believe.

Time and a concerted effort to indoctrinate (sorry, evangelize) has led to large numbers of humanity believing the stories of the Bible to be real (maybe not all stories but many of them).

My question is, given enough time and enough effort, what will humanity think of a cult like Scientology in two millenia?

..

L Ron once said if you really wanted to make money you should start up a religion.

Then he started a religion... and made a load of money... started believing his own lies... when mad with power... thought the CIA and the IRS were out to get him and set sea on a big boat forever so that they couldn't get him.

To advance in scientology you have to buy the deeper secrets. As these secrets are revealed its like bad science fiction from a bad science fiction novelist. Aliens n stuff. Its a lot like a pyramid scheme except its religious secrets you sell not goods.

Is a con truly a religion? Is it simply a matter of scale?

Hubbard probably loved everyone.
It's like a function... .

I wouldn't say he profited from it unless being arrested, beaten, thrown in prison, and executed is profiting.

..

=)

Definitely a religion. A very unique religion, but a religion nonetheless.

What is a religion and what is a cult depends on your point of view.
I am torn between the two premises:

Most religions are fantasy.
Most religions have a grain of truth in them.

To me Scientology seems to fit more the first premise but I'll try and keep an open mind.

I believe that Scientology is a religion based mostly on making money , but in the general audience it's considered a cult for many reasons. Everyone knows that you have to spend lots of money to become a Scientologist and I find it suspect that someone has to pay to raise in rank in a religion.

There's also a general light of distrust. Something about Scientology doesn't sound right to most people. Here's my personal experience:

I live very near the Scientology world capital (Clearwater, Florida) and I once had to perform there at THE Scientology hotel for a wedding (with my quartet). Everyone walks around in a long sleeve white shirt and tie and black slacks...

The hotel has security everywhere and we couldn't even get into the hotel without the bride-to-be coming outside to convince the security that we were supposed to be there. It was all very surreal and we didn't feel comfortable at all.
________________________

The way I see it, if I become a Christian, I buy a Bible and donate a couple bucks at church on Sundays. If I become a Scientologist, I spend hundreds in books and videos, and I have to actively attempt to rise in rank by doing so. For these reasons I place Scientology at the bottom of list of religions I respect.

Many fantasies have a grain of truth in them. If scientology has a truckload, does that make it any less fantastic? (w/o the positive connotations of the adjective)

:shakehead:

Indeed.

Why is it, I wonder, that some "religions" seem to be fair game...while others are decidedly off limits? Sacred cows, as it were.
Most, I suspect, find Scientology much to fantastical to be taken seriously, much less believed. Yet...there are those of us that find...well, shall we just say more "mainstream" religions, to be fantastical as well. Yet the non-believers, of the mainstream religions are criticized for being intollerent. And, to a certain degree, I suppose that we are.

There are enough believers and non-believers here to provide for some interesting and fair, if not sometimes heated, discussion and debate. I think, however, that were I a Scientologist, I would most definately be keeping my head down. Much as I did as an atheist, not so very long ago.

What I'm trying to say here is that don't you find it extremely hypocritical to accuse others of being intollerent of your own beliefs, while pointing fingers and laughing at anothers? No matter how assinine those beliefs may seem.

Glass houses, much?

I believe our species has an inherent need to develop and sometimes believe in reasons for (our) existence. Being undecided does not sit well with the majority of us. Scientology just seems to be harder to accept than most but that is probably because I am used to the stories behind many of the other major religions.

Undecided existence hasn't bothered me a bit. What bothers me is that we seem to need to imagine things outside what we can perceive. Even given that nature writes its most beautiful poems for the microscope and the telescope (yeah, ...) and that many of us have looked through neither, we feel an inherent need to imagine what we cannot imagine? Scientology at least acknowledges that it was made up relatively recently.

You mean like Muslims are maniacal suicide bombers but Christians aren't because they don't die with their bombs??

Scientologists are no more loopy than the self-delusional dupes who believe “millions” of presumably thoroughly mongrelized Egypto-Hebrews couldn’t navigate across the Negev Desert, (not much bigger than Connecticut) even though their God provided a fiery navigational aid for them to follow! :crazy:

Some Eagle Scout Moses turned out to be! :rolleyes:

(To be a suicide bomber you must die with your bomb)

Will no one stand up for Scientology?

I believe this to ring the most true. Cults are religions that not that many people "follow" and religions are simply cults that have grown large enough to get people to finally say, alright, you're valid...

so I think the question in itself is a rather pointless one...

According to the government (of the US), to qualify for tax exempt status and be recognized as a church you have to give most of your money back to the public, or put it towards the advancement of science, religion, education, etc.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html

So I guess my main question is, being as all these self enrichment classes you take from the scientologists, which cost unbelievably large sums of money, are obviously generating an assload of revenue for the church of scientology, what are they doing with it to be recognized as a church and be tax exempt? well, check this out...

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/nytimes.html

a crock, if you ask me. These bullshit strong-arm tactics that major corporations use in pissing matches with the government, (while having mixed emotions on the whole deal, being as I love to see the Gov take one, but I hate seeing fake arsed religions get any of my money) generally really piss me off. I can tell I'm not the only one:

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/stopscientology

but, being as the church and the gov are all buddy buddy now, I think I'll just go have a beer, or 10.

Where is Greenpeace when they are needed? Save the Suicide Bomber - buy Muslim Minute Men some sophisticated armaments! :sad:


G'day Bill. Are adherents of Biblical religions required to post commonsense corroborating evidence with their incredible claims made on TFP?

In the interest of an equal playing field, I’d certainly hope so.

I for one am fucking infuriated when they claim, with nothing but their Bible as substantiation,” that evil folk like me are going to burn forever, because my genuine belief - in a genial German Shepherd-headed Anubis in the sky - differs from their demonstrably bizarre beliefs. :expressionless:

Just to throw something out there... how different are Mormons from Scientology...? Now, on a side note, I've read most of Hubbard's sci-fi books - actually I didn't mind them - but the funny thing is I never once signed up for anything related to Scientology but for the longest time (and periodically still) I receive Scientology related propaganda in the mail. It's like they've got me pegged by the ISBN numbers via the bookstores or something. heh. Anyway, Scientology smells a lot like his science fiction novels and the cult like mystery reminds me of Nazism... I put two and two together and I say it was crafted out of Hubbard's mind... probably as a joke that went too far, knowing human nature. Hah! I think you only need 20 people to form a religion anyway. I'm thinking of starting one but I haven't written my sci-fi book yet. Zing! Okay, I'll stop now. I guess it's like Amway but Amway doesn't give back so they don't qualify as a religion.

So, that's my two cents, anyone know where I can get one of those rocket equipped DC8s? I told my new email buddy that'd I'd give him a ride back in time if he quits spamming everyone. Meh, everyone's so needy.

Lo and behold!

Longstanding, attendance, definition, financial backing? It seems to make no difference, overall.

I admire the civitas dei, but people built them. Can anybody direct me to the nearest house of scientology? (Another rhetorical question as they're in the phone book!)

Scientology is a dangerous cult that brainwashes its members and abuses them, sometimes to the point of death, and has polices allowing enemies of the church to be killed without repercussions. An individual's rank within the church is determined by how much money they have paid for church services and the highest level can be reached with a total expenditure of just over $360,000. There is nothing about the Church of Scientology that can be considered respectable or harmless, it is a dangerous organization.

Just for fun,

Scientology: The evil galactic lord Xenu gathered up the overpopulation of the galaxy with the help of psychiatrists by calling them in for a tax inspection. They are paralyzed with an injection of glycerin and alcohol and flown to Teegeack (earth) where they are placed around the bases of volcanoes in what is now Hawaii and the volcanoes are detonated with atomic weapons. For his crimes, Xenu is put in a mountain prison inside a force field powered by a battery that will never run out of power.


Fantastic Four issue 158: (short version) Xemu, the evil overlord of the Fifth Dimension, commits mass murder against his subjects and is eventually imprisoned in force field inside a mountain to prevent his escape.
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2058/xemujl7.jpg

"killed without repercussions"? Damnit, somebody's knocking at the door and I don't have $360,000! What am I gonna do?

Exactly the same could be said about Christianity and it's two cousin cults. :crazy:

Well, not exactly. They weren't publishing comic books then, sir.

..

Except that comic books weren't around.

..

Sir! I got caught with my pants down around the comic book thingy. Having paid particular attention to all the red letters, there's very little there that a sheep couldn't figure out...

..

At the slaughterhouse I toured long ago, they had a goat trained to lead the sheep up a number of stories to where they would be killed. The goat knew to go quickly through a different door, or so the story went...
Ah, hell, take it as you will! I'm guessing something else is going on.

Can you guess the goat's "name"?

OK, they just plain scare me..
 

I'm not a religious person at all - personally, I believe religion was always just a control method to keep the masses in line with what those in power at the time wanted.
It seems more lives have been lost "in the name of (someone's) god" thoughout history than about any other reason.

So I, personally, find pretty much any religion as somewhat dangerous in some way or another. However, I will never look down on somone's personal beliefs.
You are you, and if it works for ya...

My philosophy is to let people believe what they will, as long as they don't try to impose their values on others (me).
I personally follow my own moral code. Do what you will, but cause no harm. It works for me.

My wife is Catholic, and years ago I agreed to let her raise the children that way, but no way would I ever convert. Fortunately, she is also enlightened enough to agree to let them choose their own path later in life if they so desire.

Now, back on topic : I read the whole unauthorized biography of Hubbard.
He seemed to be a habitual liar who ultimately started believing in his own BS.

Their church seems to be very insular, controlling, and opposed to free will.
You have to buy your way up the ladder.
The whole back story is freaking nuts.
They're quick to oppose any who speak out against them.
Of them all , however, these guys seem to bother me the most.
Sounds like elements of both a cult and a religion to me.

...wow.. I must have had too much coffee this morning...

Oh my god, you sound like you're sane! Thank you for being "here"!

I cannot say this is entire untrue, but I will defend the fact that some religions accept donations while others require it. The third pillar of Islam states that one must give alms, usually with money or possessions. A man I once knew a long time ago was of a small Protestant sect and was required to donate 10% of his income monthly. I remember him vividly because he had to sell his beautiful Mustang GT to meet this donation requirement, which I thought was a shame.

However, during my childhood as a Catholic I was never required to give anything. I did, but I was never required to.

Religions/cults/whatevers like Scientology require you to spend large sums of money in order to gain wisdom or rise within the church's hierarchy. Audit sessions in the church of scientology can cost $200 per session, and if patrons don't have that money, it isn't forgiven, but they are given loans they must pay back. It has ruin many lives and put many people bankrupt. It's plain wrong in my eyes as the wise would never charge to reveal their knowledge. Socrates never did it, Siddhartha Gautama never did it, never has a wise person throughout history ever required people to pay for knowledge.

We're infected with alien souls killed by the evil lord Xenu? Fine, believe what you want, but coercing people for their money is downright dirty.

All cults are religions, not all religions are cults. And essentially non-conformance to popular belief is what slides certain religions into the cult category.

If the membership of said cult increased in popularity enough to become the majority of a population, then it would magically leaves the cult category and become a mainstream religion. Like what happened to Christianity as it spread in the early days. And what appears to be happening to Mormonism now. And could see it happening to Scientology in the future. Though it would have to have a "poor man's" edition available. It seems to be a rather expensive religion to get into, though I haven't actually price checked.

Check out this, if you have like, an hour and 8 minute and 53 seconds to spare, or so...


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...76767287&hl=en

also

http://www.stopscientology.com

*Ain't got the time* Lessee if we can make anything else up and pretend it amounts to a universal truth! The donors must be capitalists hoping for salvation. What goes around comes around, if you hope hard enough.

..

If getting into heaven costs anything it wasn't worth the price of admission.

All orginized religion is a cult. Crazy myths people follow blindly because they need something to believe in. No matter how its done or why. Its whats been brainwashed into you at some point or another. From birth with a popular religion or when your depressed lonely or bored with most cults. You believe in something you wouldnt normaly believe in.

If people want to have faith in a god thats all fine and good but dont do it because of what other people tell you. Do it because of what you know to be true yourself. If there is some all powerful god then it most likely understands you better then you can understand it. So why even try. if it was that important to god that you believe in it then it would of givin you some sort of proof and reason to do so.

[QUOTE=Mr_E]

So I, personally, find pretty much any religion as somewhat dangerous in some way or another.

() seems to be very insular, controlling, and opposed to free will.
You have to buy your way up the ladder.
The whole back story is freaking nuts.
They're quick to oppose any who speak out against them.
Sounds like elements of both a cult and a religion to me.

QUOTE]

Will anybody guess what this reminds me of?

Apologies, Mr_E, but it fit so good.

I will venture that Mr_E meant to generalize most religions and/or cults
in the simplest and most frequenly hit-upon points of foundation,
but I know what you are getting at BUGEYES, because, in America and the political world abroad,
it would be this religion that is scrutinized upon most.

......And for those of you who still might not know what OCM is alluding to,
it's the pre-dominant religion in the area of the Middle-East
where the war in Iraq is still being fought;
Islam, am I right, ourcrazymodern?

Okay, my take on this is that Scientology is originally a sci-fi take on existing religions. Almost step by step, the "beliefs" of Scientology have some shades of Buddhist beliefs. When I read the summary at the top of the thread, I immediately thought that Scientology is nothing more than a rip-off and corruption of Buddhism. It sounds cool, but it should not be taken seriously.

Actually I was thinking about USAmerican capitalism, Jetstream. It seems as cultish as anything else does to me.

:shy:OHHH, ourcrazymodern?

That would seem to make more sense. Sorry.

/Back to the issue at hand

L. Ron Hubbard wanted to help people (?) and make a little "money" at the same time. Understanding isn't that important, if belief will do. Then, give money! Would anybody like a little Kool-ade, now?

I have to agree with what Dawkins wrote in his book

Really, Scientology is not that far fetch from the stories of the bible, we are just more condition to accept the silliness of one and not the other cause more people believe it. Im sure if the numbers were flipped and Scientology had a billion members and Christianity had as many members as Scientology has today, the name of this thread would be, "Is Christianity a religion or a cult"

..

I don't know... 7 days... plagues... burning bushes... sounds pretty close.

..

What is an open mind? These stories are all very strange. Comic books have nothing on the bible since it has most of them in it. Even the scientologists seem to be praising our species, when they can. All religions are cults.

well... I suppose I was just giving you shit for the sake of shit-giving...
maybe if all my sarcastic quips weren't taken so literally y'all'd get a higher level of enlightenment from them.

(p.s. Claiming one crock of shit to be tastier than another doesn't excuse the fact that you're eating shit in the first place. I also guess the stories aren't all that strange, more along the lines of boring and stupid.)

Yes, but some years before he did all this, Paul was not a well-read science fiction writer who was known for saying "the best way to get rich is to invent a religion."

I have a little good news from St. Paul: Hope springs eternal.

..

Here I sit hoping you'll rephrase that. Please?

I think it's pretty meaningless to debate whether Scientology is a religion or cult. Essentially, most of us who aren't Scientologists consider it a cult, while most of them almost surely think of it as a religion. Apparently some people think that the mainstream religions are equally stupid, but I would like to point out that in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc, you don't have to buy your way through tiers to achieve salvation. I guess some people think that if they donate enough money to the church, it will get them into heaven, but I don't think this is true. Credibility with the church- any church- isn't necessarily credibility with God.

Uh-oh!

Stick around, Brightwater.:thumbsup:

Scientology is neither a cult nor religion. It is a cusine.



At the end of the night; it's just food...

cuisine...sorry