Well, Roach, the TV thing only came up cause we were discussing a documentary broadcast on TV (in the OP). Seems reasonable and sensible to watch the thing we're discussing. But I am with you, I don't even possess a TV either so I haven't seen the documentary yet.

Your second point is very salient and interesting. It is illustrative of the wide and diverse Christian community in general. But again, as such, it would only be a problem for some Christians, not all.

if by some, you mean those who understand Christian doctrine, then yeah, I'd agree with you.

but it seems that a lot of people don't really care or know about the history of this religion or the actual doctrines of their denomination. the only people who shouldn't have a problem with this, as roachboy correctly asserted, would be gnostic.

there are deep philosophical and theological complications with the loss of a bodily ascension or married jesus with child. or even the loss of immaculate conception...it doesn't simply boil down to I choose to believe and anything that crops up and problematizes my belief will just be accepted and explained away...

but I don't think very many church authorities are going to punish people too hard these days, lest they lose a fair share of lukewarm attendees. in the olden days they'd just burn em. which is where the ole poor gnostics went. luckily we have aprocryphal writings to read for leisure and further perspectives of the times other than mere canon.

it's a shame, in my opinion, that so many believers lack a nuts and bolts understanding of their religion. I suppose that comment can be taken as one of those famed anti-christian sentiments on the board...but the question remains, if you don't know the underpinnings of what you believe, what do you believe?

Actually no smooth, I would definitely have to agree with you. Your post raises a very good point.

I must admit, although I consider myself to be devout, I think I may fall into that category of not "understanding my religion" enough. Or maybe I'm Gnostic then. Either way, it wouldn't hurt to do a little more studying on my part.

Smooth, I don't think your comment is considered "anti-Christian" at all, not sure where you would get that idea. It is very well-thought out and nicely articulated. In fact, I find much of this thread to be enjoyable, civil, and engaging. We might have to open up another thread to explore "interpreting anti-Christian sentiments" (or something like that).

mitochondria

hmmm....as to this documentary itself, haven't seen it, but it sounds like it could perhaps be something like the findings in roswell. people will fit this into their existing worldview; believers will not find it convincing, skeptics may cite it as another piece of the puzzle as to how jesus is a myth based on a regular joe who may have been a rebel rabbi.

as to the disconnect between the actual doctrine of various flavors of faith and the understanding that any particular believer or sect of the faith may have; well, i don't see any resolution to that one. seems that all groups based on some sort of organized set of doctrine have these sorts of issues; i don't think that we'll see any movement en masse to have significant portions of society become scholars any time soon. i don't think that most people's faith works that way; its a worldview based on some loosely agreed upon tenants that are shared throughout the community. given the social and philosophical functions it seems to take on, i just don't think its really that crucial for most people. whether it should be or not would seem to be a function of personality as much as anything.

They should maybe compair the "Jesus" DNA from the tomb to the "Jesus" DNA on the shroud of turin. If they dont match then one or both is a fake. This does have some problems tho because by now the shroud is so contaminated by other people's DNA that any tests probably wouldn't work.

I thought Jesus spent much time denying his divinity and that he wasn't elevated until Constantine, centuries later, decided the slaves were getting out of control? Control of the population requires controlling their thinking.

there are many scriptures where Jesus outright claims his divinity

Please, ShaniFaye, name for me a few so I can find them!

This reminds me of Life of Brian. But I agree with Shani that the Scriptures show Jesus talk about his divinity.

Please name one. I asked for three, but I'll settle for one...:surprised: :confused: :shakehead:

I've been racking my brain for one, as I did extensive Bible study in school. I know I have read the Bible, OT and NT from cover to cover.

I've been looking through some of the online Bible quotations and I can't find anything stating that Jesus stated that he is God. He only responds and the only on time that I recall is:

Matthew 26:62-64

Hmmm. I must say I am a bit stumped myself. Nothing comes to mind at the moment. A lot of innuendo though but no direct, "I am God" quotes. There are some "son of God" ones though.

Maybe some other well read biblical scholar's can come up with some.

Ok...

In John 8:54-59, Jesus makes perhaps his most obvious claim to be God:

"Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

Reference it back to God's statement Ex. 3:13-14

"Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

There is also "if you knew me then you would know my father"

"If I honor myself, my honor is nothing." Operative words, which go far towards nowhere, yet express much. The humility Jesus expressed might enlighten.
Why hasn't anybody in this thread cried out about the sanctity of graves?

I like Simcha Jacobovici’s previous series the Naked Archaeologist, and think it is an interesting TV show.

I liked Simcha Jacobovici’s previous series the Naked Archaeologist, and think it is an interesting TV show. I've been watching it on the History Channel, well the History International... whatever it is.

:lol: ...and it was a lot handier.

I just thought I might post my Professors thoughts on this matter

Feb. 28, 2007 -- Frank K. Flinn, Ph.D., adjunct professor of religious studies, provides insight on the controversy surrounding a new Discovery Channel documentary, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, which airs March 4. Flinn, a consultant in forensic theology, is an expert on religion and the law, including issues related to the separation of church and state, government funding of faith-based social program and the display of religious symbols in schools, courtrooms and other public places.

Jesus Family Tomb

By Frank K. Flinn

On March 04, 2007, the Discovery Channel will air a program "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" made by Simcha Jocobivici and James Cameron, the maker of the film "Titanic." A companion volume of the same name by Jocobivici and Dr. Charles Pellegrino has just been released by HarperCollins

In 1980 Israeli archeologists Shimon Gibson, Yosef Gat Amos Kloner examined a tomb in the Talpiyot district of Jerusalem where construction for new housing was underway. Archeologists have noted some 900 such tomb sites in this area of Jerusalem. Upon entering the tomb, the archeologists discovered ten ossuaries in six niches and three skulls on the floor of the main room. In 1st century Palestine it was customary to bury a person of some means wrapped in linen and spices, let the flesh decay, and then, a year or more later, place the bones in a stone ossuary, which literally means "bone-box." After this hasty excavation the bones were buried by Orthodox rabbis following Jewish ritual law. Fragments of the bones, however, remained in the boxes that were not washed out. The ossuaries were then stored in a warehouse of the Israeli Antiquities Authority.

Meanwhile in 2002 another inscribed ossuary appeared on the antiquities market in Jersusalem. Oded Golan, a Tel Aviv engineer, claimed he bought the box from Arab dealers and had not noted the Aramaic inscription on the side: "Yaakob bar Yosef ahiw de Yeshua" ("James, son of Joseph, the brother of Jesus"). The reaction in the scholarly world was explosive. Inscriptionist André Lemaire of the Sorbonne said that the box could well have belonged to James the Apostle. After much argument back and forth, scholars at the Geological Survey of Israel, while not tying the inscription to Jesus' family, concluded that the script fits the time period between 20-70 CE and that the patina throughout shows no later marks of forgery. New Testament scholar James Tabor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has argued that this ossuary came from what he calls the Talpiyot "Jesus Family Dynasty Tomb" in his controversial book "The Jesus Dynasty" (2006).

As noted above, six of the Talpiyot boxes have side inscriptions. There is some argument about the preservation and interpretation of the scripts, but Tabor, Simcha Jocobivici and James Cameron, the makers of the film "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" (to be shown on Discovery Channel March 04, 2007), say the box inscriptions should be read as follows:

1. Yeshua bar Yehosef - 'Jesus son of Joseph' (speaks for itself)

2. Maria - the Latin for the normal 'Miriam' or Mary (mother or sister of Jesus?)

3. Yose - alternate form of 'Joseph' ( Matthew 13:54 lists 4 brothers of Jesus—James, Joses, Simon, Judas—and unnamed and unnumbered sisters)

4. Yehuda bar Yeshua—'Judah son of Jesus' (some claim this refers to Jesus of Nazareth's son)

5. Mariamne e mara—'Miriamne the master' (some say Mary of Magdala's real name was Miriamne; mara is the same term as Maranatha "Come, oh Lord [mara]" in 1 Corinthians 16:22 )

6. Matya—'Matthew' or 'Matthias' (possibly a husband of one of the women in an unmarked ossuary)

Mitochondrial DNA tests on the bone fragments in the Yeshua and Miriamne ossuaries show that they were not related. Shortly after the initial discovery and the 1990's one of the original ten ossuaries went missing. Tabor and others are claiming that this is the much disputed James ossuary.

One of the chief arguments posed by Kloner and others that this set of names cannot be identified with the family of Jesus is that all of the names were common as water in the 1^st century. That is true, but Tabor and the filmmakers have elicited the support of statisticians to argue the likelihood that this set of names would match the names in the New Testament is extremely small. Tabor illustrates by saying that the approximate population of Jerusalem at the time of Jesus was 50,000. If you could get all into the local hippodrome, and started asking, would all those whose name is Jesus please stand, 2,796 would rise. Then if you asked, would all those who father is also named Joseph remain standing, 351 would be left. If you ask all those also who mother's name is Mary, 173 would remain. Add the brother's name Jose, and only 23 would be left. Add the name James, and you are down to one.

University of Toronto mathematician Andrey Feuerverger calculated that the odds that the tomb does not belong to the Jesus of the Gospels is1/600. Tabor's mathematician gives the startling odds that out of 42,723,672 families, the Talpiyot combination of names would occur only once. The general public needs to be a little wary of statistical calculations. They never give you the absolute truth but only an approximation of the truth. And Tabor is quick to admit that many of the associations in his book are "speculative." Still, it is important to point out that these numbers do not depend so much on the frequency of a particular name but on the occurrence of the /cluster/ of names, and here the numbers are telling.

The Talpiyot tomb findings are a serious challenge to traditional Christian denominations. Catholics have held as a matter of doctrine that Mary was a virgin when she conceived and that she remained a virgin. The phase "brothers and sisters," they argue must be taken in a "wide" sense of "friends and followers." Many traditional Protestants beg to differ with Catholics on this score. Most claim that Jesus was never married, but scholars of 1st century Judaism now argue that one had to be married to preach in the synagogue, and that is something Jesus did on many occasions (Luke 4:16). The single implication of the Talpiyot findings that strikes traditional Christianity at its root is that, if indeed this is Jesus of Nazareth's ossuary and bone fragments, then Jesus was not raised from the dead. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 13-14: "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

Is there no way out of the dilemma for the believing Christian? Do Christians, if they accept these harsh historical facts, have to give up all belief in resurrection. I believe they do not. In the Epistle to the Romans Chapter 4, where Paul talks about the physical condition of Abraham and Sarah, he does not say that they were infertile or barren, as many translations have it, but that they were "dead" in the womb and the loins. When Isaac was born, they experienced a resurrection of the flesh in the most literal sense of the term. Likewise, when the Prodigal Son returned to his grieving father, the father said to his resentful brother, "For this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found." I call this the resurrection of everydayness. The philosopher Hegel spoke of the "divine Man" whose particular death is transfigured into "the universality of the Spirit who dwells in His community, dies in it every day, and daily is resurrected." This sense of living "resurrectionally" seems to have escaped many segments of Christianity.

The recent discoveries about 1st century Palestinian Judaism have forced many Christians to rediscover the Teaching of Jesus rather than to place all emphasis on the later teaching about Jesus.

Many devout Christians are speaking up loudly saying the Talpiyot Tomb story is another hoax, like "The Da Vinci Code." To them I give a word of caution: Dan Brown wrote fiction that had everso fragile filaments to the truth, but ossuaries are ossuaries, names are names and bones are bones. I choose to remain interested but joyfully skeptical about all the new discoveries.

Preaching is like drooling-

WITNESS:

my daughter's dog had a seizure the other day.