The Moderator Mission
 

(In a message written to the moderators of this site, I have laid out my expectations for them as we continue forth from our "State of the TFP" discussion. I've decided that this is relevant for sharing and the users of this site will also learn what is expected of them. This holds everyone accountable for their role in making this site what it is and their role in shaping it as we move forward.)


Dear TFP staff,

I've taken it upon myself to talk with as many members and past members as I could over the last few days and I have a good idea of where we are and where we need to be. Honestly, where we are is irrelevant. Where we need to be is what it has always been, but I feel the need to reiterate it to provide a clear example on how to better take care of the board. At the risk of sounding righteous, I want you all to know how serious I am about what this forum is.

The essence of the TFP is free speech without fear of discrimination. This means that we must harbor OPINIONS, no matter how different or counter-establishment they are. We must enforce MATURE conversation and understanding. Polarization, right/wrong, left/right, and disrespect will have no place here. All that matters is expression, sharing, and respect.

Your position is not any easy one any more. I hope you all understand how the site has worked in the past, so that you can contrast it to the policies I am about to lay out. The efforts involved will yield an incredible product, and not only a heap of respect from myself, but from the thousands of users who are and will be browsing this website.

The foremost point in all of this is the issue of free speech. Learning to recognize an opportunity for discussion is key to your task. Shutting down a conversation will now be a last resort when all possible hopes of salvaging mature discourse have failed. I hope not too many threads will end in lockdown, because what we do during the course of a discussion has a great deal of influence on how it ends up.

Members exhibiting polarizing and directed aggressions will be counseled. As we approach an election year, there will be all too many exchanges about political parties and what is wrong with them. It is our job to shape these threads to become more enlightening to all readers. Assaults on blathering personalities will become discussions on their impacts. Mockeries of inane policies will become insights on their meanings and conjectures on the freedoms they affect.

There are other forums on the internet devoted to bare-knuckled opinion brawling. We can be different. While many users simply desire a soapbox and an audience to dispense their rhetoric to, we must have them accept the views of others. No user will be right, correct, justified, or certified with his or her knowledge of any issue. The result is that EVERYTHING is up for debate and discussion. The product is growth. The trend is evolution.

Your responsibility as a moderator is difficult because the most basic human motivation is the need to be right. It involves interaction, listening, and diplomacy. It involves the same correspondence I have had with many users recently; calling them into chat, email exchanges, and instant messaging. It is a full-contact position and it's very important.

I've heard a lot recently about the TFP being "just an internet site." These comments are good to take into heart when people are at eachothers' throats or when you want to distance yourself from the events that are transpiring. However, we have to realize that we have a mission and we have to realize that our cause is very relevant. If we let our guard drop regarding the pride of the TFP, then we might as well let ourselves get assimilated by the other, more active and more populated communities on the net.

It's hard to be of a different mind in today's world. It's hard to be yourself. We have to be champions of our future; to evolve where others resist.

This is the Tilted Forum Project. Welcome.

Good ideas, but I think you're in for trouble in the politics board. You cannot expect someone who is firmly against abortion to understand or respect someone who is for it. You cannot expect someone who is gung-ho for the war in Iraq to have his opinion accepted by someone who is against it. It's simply not going to happen.

I think that if these ideas are strictly enforced, especially on the politics forum, we'll end up with a bad example of a discussion tournament from the high school speech team. Most of the conversation will be spent with platitudes such as "I respect and admire your opinion that X subject is black. Let's try to see how we can make that work with this guy's opinion that it is white." Such discussion is disingenuous because it is inherently false. Republicans do not respect the opinions of a democrat who disagrees with them and vice versa, and you know what? That's ok. Why force people to have to pretend and sugarcoat what they say when that isn't reality? I think you should enforce an underlying respect for the *person* without worrying so much about respect for all of their ideas. Where I come from, we're not so bloody sensitive that we'll go running home crying if someone tells us "sorry, but you're dead wrong here."

All it takes is....Three Little Words:


" In My Opinion"

and a bit of maturity

In my opinion, you're an idiot for thinking that it's that simple...

Okay, so it lacked maturity but I think it still demonstrates my point...

Unfortunately, I think Halx's suggestions are neither possible nor desirable. They're laudable goals but as shakran has suggested, there are many topics (many of which will be the more interesting ones on this forum) are intensely important to the participants and they're going to debate their positions vehemently.

For instance, I hope I demonstrated (with playful glib which I hope is obvious) above that the mere words "in my opinion" is simply not enough. People feel that if their opinion is attacked then they're attacked and that position is not entirely unwarranted.

"I think drugs should be legalized."
"You're an idiot"

This is obvously unacceptable. However, how about attacking their position instead?

"I think drugs should be legalized."
"Anyone who thinks that drugs should be legalized is an idiot and here's why..."

Again, it's pretty transparent that someone is calling someone else an idiot. But if you feel that a position is foolish then the person who holds that position is going to feel that you're calling them foolish... mostly because you are! But that's the nature of disagreement. People are going to take some of these opposing positions personally, especially if the position is personal to them.

I think people should just grow up and not take other people's opposition so hard. Grow a "thicker skin," as it were. Personally, I think there should be less debates and more communication in an attempt to actually understand the other side but I've learned that I can't convince everyone (or even most people) to take this route. They'd rather be dead than red... I mean, wrong. They'd rather be dead than wrong so they must debate their side so that they can, at least, be plausibly "right." A foolish notion if I've ever heard one but... can I tell them that? I don't want to offend anyone....

My favourite example (and maybe I'm starting to ramble here) is if you're talking about yourself in an unfavourable light. Maybe a lot of people don't know this about me (even though I've brought it up a couple of times) but I'm a staunch defender of pedaphilic rights. Pedaphiles are not bad people and are totally villified in our society. Yet, I'm pretty sure that if anyone wanted to talk about their pedaphilic inclinations or even anything involving them that people will judge him harshly using, at least, the "non-insult" insults that I alluded to, above. Seriously, let me bring up how pedaphilia is legal and watch all the "slippery slope" arguments get thrown on the screen...

plus the fact that "in my opinion" does not apply to many arguments.

"In my opinion the Iraq war was started on false pretenses" not only is not true (it WAS started on false pretenses. Opinions have nothing to do with it. We don't say "In my opinion the sky is blue" because it IS blue. Opinion on sky color is irrelevant) but it destroys the strength of an argument.

In the above example, the false pretenses alegation is a FACT. Now, i should have to back up my claims when I say something is fact, but I should not have to turn that real fact into fake opinion.

I think "in my opinion" is redundant... of course it's your opinion, that's why you wrote it.

My only complaint during all of the "What is wrong with TFP" and "new forum" and "Let's get back to the goal" is the utter lack of disrespect some people are able to get away with when they direct it at someone that has an unpopular or "unenlightened" opinion. Either there are rules for how we interact, or there aren't. There should not be a double standard depending on if you are skewing towards a harmonizing, togetherness, open, happy enlightened viewpoint or not. That is absolute bullshit.

For what it's worth, I'm firmly against abortion but I do respect and (imho) understand the various pro-choice positions. That's my self-analysis, anyway.

I probably have - and show - a little less respect, though, for the obviously flawed, just plain bad arguments that exist on both sides of the debate.

A valid complaint. Thing is, as much as we try to avoid this, you guys need to remember that mods are people too. Sometimes something might not stick out to us upon first look, for whatever reason, but reporting the post can make us say "you know what, yeah, that's not acceptable."

If you see something that you think is in violation of the rules, please report the post. Reported posts go to ALL the mods, so it's much less likely for someone to get away with something due to a bias unintentionally clouding a mod's judgment.

The worst that happens if you report a post is that none of the mods think it requires action. It doesn't make you look bad, we don't get upset that we get the e-mails or anything like that. So don't hesitate to do it if you think something should be done.

A forum is the sum of its users, not of its mods and admins. This forum would be a very difficult one to mod as Hal (et al) wants to keep it as open and inviting as possible without it falling into a flamefest of immaturity. Depending on mods & admins to use their best judgement over having a clear set of rules places too much responsibility on the mods & admins. It also brings into play the many differing point of views that the mods & admins have. However, putting a set of rules in place can result in killing off the openness & discussion that is the ultimate goal of the forum.

An interesting task. You kids have fun with ya, ya'ear?

Feel free to ignore this post or tell me I'm full of it. I've been absent from TFP for quite some time now, coming back only when receiving Hal's email.

first, i thought the moderators mission was to recover 'tablet of the monkey king'.

second, it is possible, as we all know the tablet is located in the valley of fire past the jungle of despair... oh wait... wrong topic.

but seriously it can be done, if you read the back and forth between i and willravel in the 9/11 conspiracy thread, we never once called each other names, we still respect each other, we may have never gotten much of anywhere, but we did not resort to childish name calling.

Look, for a while the mods got a little out of control. I totally agree with that but these 'what's wrong' 'how do we save it' 'mods are teh evil' threads are getting really tedious. If people spent half of the time they spend on bitching about how things should be and instead posted something new there would be no problems.

It's going to take a bit of thick-skin growing, and a bit of respect for others, whether one agrees with their position on anything (politic included) or not.

I don't understand why folks feel free or more free to emotionally bludgeon others in the politics forum, but it's not acceptable there or anywhere else.

And a person's opinions are rarely changed by someone calling them a dumbass. But folks are more likely to listen to different viewpoints on an issue (and maybe even change their minds) if treated with respect, and the interaction is not just an excuse to roll in emotional vomit. I don't often see folks working to be persuasive in explaining their PoV, I see a lot of prideful, stiff-necked, self-indulgent posturing, trying to shout down others or filibuster the damn threads.

So I guess folks can either use the politics forum to lovingly and verbosely illustrate their preconceived and unchangeable positions, OR they can actually *Communicate* with others, get other's input and opinions and viewpoints and interpretations and share their own, to grow in understanding (if nothing else, in seeing how others see the same issues), and *gasp* evolve.

What happens if you don't respect the person or their position?

arguing ideas i think is acceptable -but belittling a person for having those ideas is not...

there's no reason to make any argument personal... and if people don't like their ideas being disagreed with - well no sulking - either do a better job articulating your point - or agree to disagree and move on - (my new favorite saying is the best part of beating your head against a brick wall - is stopping)

You use the back button.

What if I don't respect the Back button?

I'm pretty sure I heard it muttering pejoratives about my mother a couple of days ago.

::beats up carno's back button::

it'll be only say nice things about your momma from now on :D your sister, is another story :D

i think people really do know how to behave - imagine the person you are arguing with is sitting across from you - forum anonynimity tends to make people bolder thna they really are and they will say things they wouldn't say in real life. the person being debated with is a real person - just like you...

Uhh, to get back to the OP here, I don't think that's what you generally call a mission statement. It's sort of more like an email reminder, and it's not the most concise and usable document I've ever seen. Would you mind getting workshopped on it, Hal?

Here's my thought:

Google "mission statement" and use one of those resources to come up with a more effective (read: concise) statement. I am fully aware that this is not a business, nor does anybody around here own any 'shares' of the TFP. That said, certain widely used or "mainstream" things are widely used for a reason. I sometimes get the impression that too much pride in how the way we do things around here is different from the "mainstream" causes situations where we stubbornly do things a way that could use improvement. Most of the time, it is admirable that this is a different place; others, it can be frustrating. I don't think it would hurt to put together a real mission statement, and maybe even explore something along the lines of a strategic plan for how to implement it. (I don't think a full official strategic plan would be necessary though.)

Here are some examples of mission statements that work:

NOAA:

On the less technical (and verbose) side, there is also NPCA's:

Finally, there is Google's (also very concise):

--

I just get the idea that you're going more for effective than original with this particular endeavor, and maybe your approach should reflect that more.

You approach them with maturity, and debate their points.

Alot of you seem to think that what our leader is asking for is unreasonable. The point that should be taken is that we should try anyway. Does it make sense to give up on an idea simply because it is difficult? The struggle to reach reaps its own rewards. Likewise, cowering away does nothing. Which would you rather contribute to our community?

I think you all forget that this is how things used to be. And it worked fine.

Have you heard that saying, Never wrestle with a pig; you'll both get muddy, but the pig likes it?

I don't think anybody around here who has brought up this point is one to "cower" in one of those situations. I have witnessed a lot of members argue like brick walls and sit in the shade of the "use the back button" rule like pigs in the mud. If you want to call that debate, go ahead and stay deluded. The point some others have made about this in other threads is that it's getting tiring having to choose between leaving a discussion that might otherwise be engaging or wrestling with a pig.

I propose that my statement makes discussions more engaging.

Mal, it's a good point, but I don't think most people can live by this rule here. You said it yourself... being on a forum in and of itself lends itself to making online interaction very different from real-life interaction (especially for those who live online and have few social skills as a result). I'm not saying that everyone is like this, or that anyone *has* to be like this... but it's hard to get away from in this kind of setting. If only we all had individual webcams and live shots of everyone sitting there typing away behind their monitors, able to talk to each other through mics... maybe we'd treat each other differently then, lol. WoW meets TFP? :D

You nerd you.

I think, for my part, abaya has a point: it's always easier to treat those members you know with respect than those you don't. Meaning, those who have their pictures up or have shared some other piece of themselves besides their opinion on a given issue are more easily pictured as part of a bigger world--not just the narrow one of their opinion.

I know, right now, replying to abaya's post--I'm imagining her at her computer. Let's hope that it stops there ;)

I for one refuse to move into my parent's basement. My wife would resent it, the kid would most likely try to take dryer rides and the 1000 mile one way commute would drive me batshit crazy. :no:

How hard is it to ask people to be polite? That's the kernel of truth that I find at the center of this argument. And do we really need 4 threads going on that at the same time?

Is this in response to my suggestion for a more concise mission statement? I'm not sure if I should be shaking my head at an attempt to mock my suggestion, offering more suggestions to a person who just didn't quite get it, or assuming it's just a non sequitor.

A precise statement would direct TFP in the direction that Halx alone would like to see it go. By being somewhat vague, it is up for interpretation by individual members and potentially taking TFP in a direction that is just as desireable but not originally envisioned.

And yes, I know my spelling sucks.

There is something that I have wanted to say for a long time to those that are critical of the Politics forum that have rarely, if ever, participated there in the last year. I believe it is relevant to Hal's OP.

Politics earned it's vile reputation with the poor behavior of mods and members (myself included) a long time ago. In the last year or so, it is rare to see that type of behavior or to see a topic locked. I give full credit to the current mods that guide that forum and the many members that prefer respectful discourse. Mockery and disrepect for the person rather than the opinion is virtually gone.

In short, the Politics forum is one of the great successes of TFP and it is long overdue that we recognize it for what it is today, not what it was a year ago.

::jumps off soapbox, slips and falls::

SC: The second paragraph is my "mission statement" - everything else is intended to outline the specifics. My comment was simply to state that I think people are blowing it off because they don't see the value of it.

What I see in the community now is a love for carnal response. You think of something and post it without thought. Take Chimera's proposal for example. Instead of considering his views, the posters tear down his personality. This is not responsible posting.

I don't disagree with that statement but there are some posters who have such strong personalilties and rub some people the wrong way with said personality that it becomes very difficult to separate the person from the idea. And it's my personal belief that they want it that way.

There's one in particular who comes to mind - who would saiy the sky was blue and the politics crew would argue to the death that the sky was not blue no matter how their point was backed up)

This just reminds me of what shesus said in chat, about the little kids. The slapper is always the one to get punished when they finally lose it, despite the amount of unobserved provocation from the slapped. I appreciate that you are addressing that thread as if I wasn't one of those people tearing down his personality, but everyone knows I was, and I am not going to back down from what I said or agree that what I said should be poo-pooed.

I didn't say what I did about tecoyah/chimera because I had a funny idea and posted it without thinking. It wasn't a 'carnal' response. Maybe I could have said it in a more boring way, but the point would have been the same. If I was giving in to the desire to slap and not 'posting responsibly,' then it was because I've watching the same person contribute time after time without "responsible thinking" first.

Of course, I know what your response to me will be, you've already responded here: (LINK)

What you're describing as "social frustration" is certainly frustration, but not of the social variety. It is frustration with irresponsibile thinking. I don't think there's anything wrong with conflict if it means taking people to task when they are unwilling to stand behind their own ideas with rational discourse.

Argue the topic, not the person.

Your response is irrelevant to the topic I was discussing. It side-steps the issue, and inadequately addresses my concerns, at best.

You already said you knew how I was going to respond, so I didn't bother typing it out. My suggested solution is that you take what you know about a poster OUT of the equation when you comment on a post.

Hal, with all due respect, that's just never going to happen unless all posts are completely anonymous, which would seem to me to defeat the purpose of this board. What you're asking SC is to forget people that she know IRL and those she's gotten to know strictly through electronic means. While it might seem like a fantastic idea, no one here operates in a vacuum, and personal history is one of those constant influences that is impossible to eradicate unless you remove the personalities that are conflicting. Sorry, I just forget what I know about people. I'll subsitute my earlier suggestion of civility and stick by that.

Jazz, all I'm asking is that a post be judged on the merits of its content. I think it is a crucial step in growing as a community. I think we're too obsessed with personalities at the moment and we are forgetting that 1) people change, mature, grow, and adjust, and 2) even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

A person should not allow his/her knowledge of a poster dictate a response based solely on that knowledge. People have a way of surprising you when you least expect it.

it's actually be interesting to see what happened ifthe posts were anonymous - or at least hidden and see if that makes a differnce - granted some people have very specific writing styles but it'd be intriguing ...

Wait... I'm supposed to do what now?

Your response is STILL irrelevant to the topic I was discussing and side-steps the issue, not even attempting to address my concerns. Plus, you have just demonstrated that you yourself cannot do what you are suggesting that everyone else do, which is to take what you know about me out of the equation when you comment on a post. I linked that other response and then added a further point, which you haven't even acknowledged, let alone rebutted or supported. It appears that you haven't considered it at all.

The issue I brought up is that you are mixing up social friction and frustration with irresponsible posts. (I am using your own terminology to make this clearer.) Irresponsible posts are not the ones where we let our thoughts or emotions show too clearly (isn't that sort of what we want around here anyway?) - irresponsible posts are the ones where the poster does not have the courage or desire to take responsibility for what they said. Perhaps if we were allowed to call out irresponsible posts as we should be able to, I wouldn't have felt the need to respond to tecoyah/chimera's thread about participation by questioning his character. However, it's hard to have any thought when reading that thread but, 'Look who's talking!'

If you can think of a reasonable way to allow for this sort of idea to be expressed (because I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea), I will happily abandon my aggressive stance in this thread, go back into that thread and even apologize to him for bringing something up in the wrong venue. Until that day comes, this will likely continue to happen.

OK, I can live with that.

I think it's important to try to evaluate posts on their own merit as much as possible. Sure, sometimes it's hard, but it's not impossible.

It can be annoying when folks are having a thread about the merits of various brands of peanut butter, and someone suddenly pops off with, "of course you'd like *Skippy*, you gun-loving, first amendment-hating dork..." or something like.

Not at all saying you (SC) are doing that, or have done it. Certainly others have though, and I exaggerate for effect.

I certainly have issues with at least one regular poster here. But I don't let myself hold grudges as it were, and to address the topic at hand.

I'd like to make it clear that I am not talking about the Tec/Chim thing...that is not a typical situation. :|

SC, I view irresponsible posts as bandwagon responses, knee-jerk criticisms, and diversions from a topic. If you can think of a reasonable way to respond to a post that you feel is a little too pompous that displays your maturity and intelligence, I want to see it. I don't know if I'm even addressing your concerns, but all I can do is seek new ways to say the same thing at this point. I think the social game has too much sway on topics. In today's society, it is more important to be popular than to be right. Why is that? Why can't we be different?

For the most part I don’t post long responses unless I have something really fuckin’ important to say. Like now.


You fucking people drive me nuts. You know that?


Every single on of you overestimate the common TFP user. Along with yourself. Just because you or anyone else on here has the basic knowledge how the internet works and has a pretty good schooling background doesn’t mean you know all there is to know about everything. Don’t get me wrong. I’m very impressed with slightly more than half of what you all say about how society works and how it should work and politics and what’s wrong with each and every other member here. Believe me. If I was to compile all the posts here into a book about society… we would all be sent away for a very long time. I’m not saying you all are dumb. I know that all of you have your little corner of the world that you rule over and in that world you know all. And trust me… I have my little corner too. But unlike most people here I know when it’s time for me to voice my opinion and when it’s time for me to retreat back to my little corner and watch the egos fight over pretty much nothing. And yes, I’m normally the first one to jump into a pissing contest and after a few beers I’ll piss for hours. But I only jump in after I’ve found something useful to say. I’m not just talking to here the sound of my own keyboard.

Next time you think you’re having a great discussion with one of the members here; you should stop and ask yourself, “Do I even have the foggiest fuckin’ clue what I’m talking about or better yet what the fuck does the other person think they know?” And yes, I understand we’re trying to base our responses on the posts themselves and not the member posting it but some times that doesn’t work. See, I’m known for being full of shit. So why would you trust anything comes out of my head? And I’m not saying you shouldn’t. Just don’t be so quick to respond. Sit back. Think about it. No one here is smarter than you. You have absolutely nothing to prove. You’re just having a conversation. You might be right or the other person might be right. But really, at the end of the day does it matter? Are we all here to solve world hunger, cure AIDS, or figure out why Bush always smiles when talking about war? No. We’re not. We can talk about those things but nothing is really ever gonna come of it other than entertainment.


I can think of a few other people besides me that just wanna hang out with good people and relax. Sure every once in a while I’m gonna throw down on a heated topic but for the most part I’m just gonna sit back and watch you all make pretty much fools of yourself trying to be the first one everyone else agrees with. I’m so proud. You got a bunch of people that spend most of their time on the internet to agree with you on something. Talk to your family. Play with your kids. Have a conversation with a random person. Get them to see where you’re coming from. Make a real human connection. After you do all that on a regular basis then you can talk to the rest of us what it’s like to a fucking human. Cause until then you are nothing but a robot. And thus will be treated that way.

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

It goes along with the rest of my post.

I don't get it... are you claiming that everyone who argues on the internet has no life and is a robot?

For the most part... yes.

WK - first of all, thanks for an entertaining post. Given that you rarely seem to take anything seriously, it was fun to read just for the entertainment value.

And if I can read between the lines a little, I think that's a very good point. All of this - TFP, the internet, the Web - is self-created entertainment. Why have I been hanging around TFP all day when I could have been working the deals on my desk today? Because frankly this is much more entertaining that prematurely pestering some underwriter about something that he's probably not going to be interested in anyway. There aren't any fires today, so I've spent a good portion of today screwing around here because it's much more interesting than rehashing loss history on a gravel hauler/asphalt contractor in North Dakota (which actually is the next thing in my pile). The only reason any of us are here is to be entertained by whatever threads interest us. Sometimes we learn something along the way, but that's almost always an accidental byproduct of the entertainment.

Yippie... You understood. Thank you.

A real what?
.....:hearts:.....

There's also a bend toward 'carnal assumption'-taking what words are in front of you and not bothering to comprehend what is being said, followed by 'carnal response'.
I've seen this in every single forum I've ever been part of: simply put, people read text with their own inflections and accented words. A simple 'Why should I...?' could be read 3 different ways and taken at least two different ways-either a legitimate question of 'how come' or personal affront.
I'd add to Chimera's 3 and add another 3-"I don't understand". And if you still have difficulties with someone's post or how you're reading it, there's this feature called 'private message'.... ;)
We're all adults(or pretending to be to get in here); we should be able to have a level of discussion without going the 'poopyhead' route.
Type, read it, read it again, edit and if it looks too poopyheaded, if that's not how you yourself would want to be addressed, close the window....

Misunderstanding seems to be taken very personally on the boards. Opinions as well. There is no need to call anyone a fool for not sharing a point of view. Insinuating faults that hold no pertinence in a discussion serve only to hinder the forum. It adds nothing save for acting as a detterent to those who wish to join the debate. Keep this in mind.

I know its an obvious reasoning, but I feel it should be said every once in awhile.

LOL. This robot can live with that. It's odd that it would never occur to the self-proclaimed king of the world that some might find entertainment in serious debate. Luckily for me, at least, my postings don't require any level of pride from you.

Heyzuess! This place takes itself waaaaaay too seriously...

I appreciate your non-reactionary response to my criticism. You are getting warmer and colder at the same time.

Hal, even though I know you are trying to look at the quality of this post and not rely on what you know about me... of the choice between being right and being popular, you know which I would choose just as well as I do. Of course, I would prefer being right only because I prefer to be the best person I can be and to grow when at all possible. I would prefer being wrong to being popular, too. Popularity holds little value for me. You said everything above as if you were trying to get me off of my irrelevant topic and onto this important one, but this is the topic I have been getting at all along.

Anybody who has read at least a handful of my posts or some of my journals has probably come to expect that I put a lot of thought into what I write and generally stay pretty level-headed. This has not changed about me, and yet the nature of my posts has obviously changed of late. Why is this? Because we are talking about why there aren't as many interested (or interesting) people on the TFP as there used to be. I have heard the reasoning of seasons and waves of interest. There are down times and up. I understand this and my participation changes like this as well. But there is another reason why in the last several months (aside from transitional times such as when I was relocating or out of town) I have not felt the desire to participate here as much. That is because there seems to be a somewhat pervasive desire for popularity rather than one for expressing our ideas honestly, no matter who agrees. It is a social pressure, and I don't think it affects everyone, but it does affect enough people to make a difference. When I refer to 'hens' and how the TFP is becoming a 'henhouse' in the other thread, this is what I mean.

It is starting to feel like it is only okay for men to display the full range of personalities around here, and when a woman sticks her head out too far, some [passive]aggressive hens come and peck at her. I was also going to point out that roosters sometimes join in, too, specifically thinking of when Ch'i said "Such hostility, Supple Cow!" But now that I look for the post where he said it, I see that he has edited that part out. Thanks for leaving that part out, Ch'i. Maybe this place won't be overrun by henhouse antics after all.

Why is it when an attempt at a serious opinion (King) is stated that everyone either shuts down and snaps back or proceeds to turn it in to a joke? thats a sign of not listening or really giving a damn.

And in regards to arguing, whatever happened to asking questions to get a better answer? We are a product of our experiences and perhaps sharing them (along with our personality, sorry Hal) will produce a better understanding of the person AND their beliefs. So what if they are wrong in their thinking? Actually, scratch that, the only way most people are wrong in their thinking is if someone else tells them that (excluding law breaking and math, and even those can be overturned in magnificent ways).

it seems one of our most important needs in our existance has broken down... The need to communicate and be heard. Everyone wants to talk, no one wants to listen and god forbid no one wants to be wrong. This also undermines the ability to learn. If we all happen to be so educated (and i know quite a few are) how have we lost our ability to question and think out of the box? Thats just simply implies we are all digressing, fan-fucking-tastic.

I could be wrong, but what happened to agree to disagreeing and trying to get something out of it? No more name calling, arguing for arguing's sake (dont we deal with enough of that bullshit in real life) and whatever vindictive stuff thats been going on here.

Just fucking play nice already.

Are we supposed to give a damn about every single post on the TFP? There are many posts that seemingly get ignored.

oh i know many get ignored. if youre new and/or dont have an avatar, youre bottom of the totem pole. But maintaining such mentality is why this place gets labeled as "elitist"

That's not what I meant. There are many posts by members with avatars that never get direct responses, and that has nothing to do with elitism.

Also, many people gave their serious opinions in this thread, so I'm not sure why you seem to think only World's King had one. In any case, a couple people did make serious replies to World's King's post, so your gripe holds no water.

Have you looked down the back of the sofa? :paranoid:

To be honest, I prefer it that way.

People who take themselves seriously are more interesting than people who just fuck around. If I wanted random nonesense posted I could just watch a bunch of monkeys typing at a typewriter...

How do you distinguish "shutting down" (although I think you might mean "shoots down") or "snapping back" and disagreement?

Maye times have changed but, for the longest time, I didn't have an avatar and I felt that people took my posts seriously. In some forums, I think I was rather well respected...

I think avatars were enabled for everyone now, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I present my first (second) post in 11 months to bring you this:

Exhibit A: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=42001

Exhibit B: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=95407

In Exhibit A, I was given a warning from a moderator for being an antagonistic asshole. S/He may not have used those words exactly -but this is somewhat close to the idea. Okay, so no more posty in politics...

Exhibit B; my "paranoid" belief was openly made fun of by other members where the rules explicitly say : "Don't mock, call names, or ridicule". When I started complaining ie hitting the "triangle-!" button -I was warned by a Moderator not to do that ie. -I was wasting their time. So I left.

I have always understood that the TFP is not my bandwidth. There are things that I liked about coming here. But this lopsided popularity contest with the moderators -is not one of them.

I'm not sure if this new rule has changed anything or not. I don't even know if it is a "new rule". Things sure have changed for me since I left. I'd love to discuss our fucked up thoughts with everyone. I just don't know if I'm welcome here.

The mods have taken a lot of heat over everything from being a clique to overmoderating to undermoderating to playing favorites to being above the rules. And we've been taking it pretty well - people need a chance to vent and get their feelings heard. However, I'm not playing this particular game with you - and I'm not going to let this be a one-sided mud-slinging contest. Since you brought this up, I went back and counted at least 8 PMs from 3 different mods engaging you and your 5 reported posts on this matter. All were discussed and debated among the moderating team. That's is hardly a popularity contest or summary dismissal. You know what? You don't always get every desire granted - we just didn't agree with your interpretation of events. There never was anything more or less to that.

Sounds like your being fair to everyone. except:

So what exactly is it about me that makes you take exception?

Astro:

It's because I think that in other cases we have shared in the blame but in this one I don't think that is the case. It's the fact this is a general thread and you are using it to bring up an inaccurate account of a personal gripe (that I feel is completely unjustified) combined with the general tendency I see for mods to be hamstrung by our attempts to be respectful of people's privacy and not post details of incidents. However, you've brought this up, and I felt that your portrayal of events was unfair, inaccurate, and unreasonable. I feel that you were treated extremely reasonably by a very patient staff, of which I was a member. I have no desire to let the "code of silence" allow you to distort that history.

That's about fairness to me and the other mods. It goes both ways. As it goes, this is a threadjack in a thread that deserves to continue on in the vein it was written. I'll let you have the last word if you like. If you want to discuss things in the open, you're welcome to make a different thread. For what it's worth, I'm not at all hostile to your return, just to getting dumped on unfairly.

Uhm....I don't see anything swinging atcha there, Astro....and in the vein of the OP, I don't see anything resembling favortism or any leanings by the mods that participated. I'd say that,except for Pan's exceptional scriptwriting, that was a more innocuous exchange than many.
/end participation of threadjack

It's really swell that I get the last word and all -but I've never been about getting the last word. It's always been about a discussion. "Getting the last word" belies having a discussion.

In fact, my little post was NOT a threadjack IT IS TOUCHING UPON THE SUBJECT AT HAND. Certain people *Ahem* are so sensitive when I say anything that they take only the parts that they want to see. My post above, was not only about Exhibit B.

I also brought up Exhibit A.

Exhibit B is presented because it's about moderating others who violate the rules "against me". I don't care as much about exhibit B -as exhibit A. I can live with a bias in favor of expression -if I also have the right to expression.

Now this doesn't mean that I'm going to go straight to the Paranoia forum and tell people to put on their tinfoil hats (which others are allowed to do if I am the poster) -but within the context of a discussion I should be able to tell a person that they are being unreasonable -without some Moderator sending me a warning.

This is my point. I hope I am clear now.

so wait.. why are we living in the past?? I thought the whole point of evolution was to just move forward. Constantly bringing up the past doesn't do much good when things have been changed and the push forward is already in place.

That's a disheartening statement coming from a Super Moderator. Did you read the whole thread? I think it is a pretty good context for letting people bring up past events that don't sit well during this time of change... especially when Hal asks for feedback. It's one thing to chime in and disagree with the claims being made, but another to dismiss people entirely and cite the reason as "the push forward is already in place." From your position of authority on this board, that comes off as just a fancy way of saying, "drop it, or else."

I just wanted to address this, even though some people around here seem to think I'm just being crazy, indiscernible or simply that I'm beating a dead horse. I personally think it is important not to let this get brushed under the rug.

Sultana, your first suggestion is generally a valid one, but it just emphasizes Hal's point over again... and the deficiencies of such an attitude. Suppose I were to take issue with something you said and I told you, 'You just need to try to think a little more like a dancer, Sultana. I think that would help you understand better.' I would be suggesting that you don't know/do something you already do. If I didn't know that you were a dancer, maybe it wouldn't bug you as much, but wouldn't you be a little irritated hearing that from somebody who should know that by now? To take the focus off of Sultana now...

I have not been arguing that posts shouldn't be evaluated on their own merit; in fact, my protestations are to argue exactly the opposite - that posts should be evaluated for their merit. But to what end? To form an opinion about that person and his/her contributions. I think anybody who denies that is fooling himself. Think of why your friends and loved ones are your friends and loved ones... isn't it the same reason? Because they have given you many reasons over time (countless events) to trust and love them. In Hal's version, we ignore what we know about a person and each post is an island... but then we are challenged to judge a post's merit. This is truly a conundrum. How can we be take a good reputation as motivation to post in a respectable fashion if we are at the same time eschewing the notion of a reputation?

That said, I think the real disagreement with me is that some people perceived my actions as picking on someone. It never had anything to do with evaluating a post based on its merit.

I wasn't dismissing people entirely; and if I wanted to say "drop it, or else" I would have said just that. I'm sick of all the complaining and bitching about this happened to me and that happened a while back. Big fucking deal. Seriously.

The fact remains that the mods are finding new and better ways of better interaction with users and that Hal is back and things are moving forward. This thread does nothing but remind me of board meetings where all the middle managers complain because the executives aren't doing anything, yet the executives have given the middle managers power to make decisions and move the company forward. The board is progressing and everyone has been given the power to help with forward push. Yet all I continue to see is bickering about.. what exactly?? To be perfectly honest and blunt. I don't see much wrong with this place except people are putting their energies into the wrong areas. Instead of typing out that long post saying you disagree with everything how about do something constructive and help with the forward progress? (note this isn't directed directly to you Supple)

So go ahead call a spade a spade.. just make sure you call it right in case your bluff gets called out.

Mm, indeed. Using evolution or change as a reason to dwell on past mistakes does get tedious. Bring up the mistakes, yes, as a way to learn, but at some point it's beating a dead horse.

I have my own reason for having left the TFP in the past, but as I don't have any suggestion on how to fix that mistake, I'll keep it to myself. Besides, it's been discussed already. The fact that the PTBs recognize that change is/was needed is plenty enough to bring me back into the fold, for what it's worth.

Supple_Cow... I have to ask you a question. Did you read my post? And if you did, what did you think of it?

I only ask this because I get the feeling you don't really have stance on any of this and are just picking easy things to argue against.

(Sigh.) That's your opinion, and it's been disproved repeatedly. And yet you still call it fact.

Besides, his message is directed to the MODERATORS. Ending the existing practice of terminating threads prematurely would be a welcome change.

As far as I know, that has died down for all but the most egregious offenders - for months now...

The simple answer is that there are not enough restrained British moderators. :D

...with horns and forked tongue. :D

And glowing minds and loins.