Hal,

First, in terms of any commentary of ownership/donations/etc. I've never really thought about "ownership" in terms of financial ownership, nor do I think its really a question. You pay the bills, you put in the organization to support the board - essentially, you run the place, it's your house. In terms of conceptual ownership, I think snowy sums up my basic feelings, and I doubt very seriously that you'd take any distinction with her point - developing a sense of community, and thus a certain feeling of communal ownership seems to be something you've been pushing since I've been on the boards.

In terms of direction, it seems to me that a useful question is whether a pure "discussion" board will ever be an entity which substantially drives up more traffic over a sustained period of time. I personally feel that if tfp is going to become a powerhouse, and if its not going to be a centrally themed board...the question I keep returning it is whether or not tfp can be a content-based resource board across a diverse set of genres, and whether tfp can compete with established boards that already serve this purpose. The function I see where tfp could be unique in this regards is the ability to facilitate cross-genre interaction and cross-germination of concepts and interactions. It seems to me that we have a diverse set of members, many of whom have specialization in their knowledge sets. Would it be possible to give members a certain amount of conceptual ownership over some subsets of the board, where they could post personalized content which might serve as a resource. For instance, I know that we've got fly, divagirl, quadro and many more who have specialized knowledge of music theory, recording equipment, musical instrumentation, and the like. What if they had a section, perhaps similar to the journals, but not really for "blogging" in the community - but where they could post tightly-controlled resources on instruments, home recording equipment and techniques, reviews, etc. Perhaps solicit content from experts in the field, etc - that would enable other members to record, play, learn etc. That type of content might appeal to others across the net, and serve to drive them to tfp. The same could be said for roach in philosophy/economics, maybe dc_dux in politics, etc. I don't know if we have members with a critical mass of knowledge and drive to make such a thing reality, but I just don't see how "drive up traffic" can be a primary goal. That seems secondary to me. The first goal seems to be a necessary "what role can tfp fill that would naturally drive up traffic." I simply don't see how tfp can function as it currently does, and at the same time drive up traffic. I think the current membership pretty much fits what tfp currently does, and has to come to this state naturally. I think in the hay-day of tfp, there was more creativity / content-generation - in terms of original photography, and in particular in terms of creative exhibitionism / member sharing / critique of content. I just don't see that happening as much these days.

pigglet, a sculptor does not start with a tiny stone that grows into a statue, he starts with a large block and whittles it down. That is the purpose of traffic in the "1% rule" that a previous poster commented on earlier. You need to cycle users through your system for it to appeal to them in the first place. Creating a specialized system for only a couple of users to interact in would be a waste of energy. I'm not saying your idea is bad.. I actually like it a lot. However I disagree on the order of events. I believe you must have traffic before you can expand. I roll my eyes when I visit a site with 50 forums and only a couple users.

I believe it all comes down to how much traffic you have.

Although guilty of it myself, I still don’t understand why people make the claim that the Internet is not real life. There is no better mirror as to what happens in real life than what happens on TFP. A community of people trying to figure out how to coincide with as little conflict as possible. Making laws. Creating some sort of law enforcement… You get the point. Pioneers. Which is a really lame thing to call us. But it’s true.

To me this place is real life. I’ve seen just as many boobs, assholes, fights, really hot women, morons, idiots, bad poetry, news about Paris Hilton, and whatever else you can think of here as I do in every other part of my life. T o me, the ones that say that things work differently here as they do ‘in real life’ are the ones that have created this alter-ego for themselves here. Which is why nothing works. As soon as you separate yourself into differently personalities for reaction to different places and people than you will start to fight within yourself. And that shows. I’m the same person here as I am with my friends, family, pets, strangers… everyone. It helps keep me grounded. I can’t justify acting different. Saying things I wouldn’t normally say. Being more mean… sad… happy… I’m just me.


So, if you’re unhappy with how this place has turned out you should no further than yourself. You helped build it. Some of us have been here for almost the entire time. I know I’ve been here way longer than I remember. I’ve made great friends and will continue to talk to them long after this place dies. I’ve fell in love, learned how to hate someone I’ve never met, considered flying to another country just to meet someone for the first time, had strangers stay at my house, gotten laid, shown most of the world my penis, and many other things in my time here. And I know that all of it has helped keep this place going. So if you wanna help keep this place going all you have to do is…


You know already. Just do it.


(And I'm talking to all of you here... )

King, just wanted to say that you are right on, man. :thumbsup: I agree with every word you said.

The state of TFP is the sum total of every single one of us.
If we want change we need to change ourselves.

The "old days" were just the result of the people who populated the board.

Some of us are still here and you know what? It'still very very good here.
We have some fantastic members who contribute much of their lives, consciousness, and creativity - that makes it worthwhile...for me at least.

Wishing our best,
Art

as ART said, ""It's still very good here."

^^
Thirded

Just because there's some things that need to be ironed out, doesn't mean that the TFP needs to come to a standstill. :)

Fourthded...ded

My donation is important, as far as I'm concerned. I'm poor. I can't afford to send as much as I'd like, and sometimes none at all, but I like to know my money is being used (which I'm sure it is) and used effectively. I guess one of the things I was getting at is that I would like to see more transparency with the donation process--meaning more accountability about where my donation goes. If it goes to buying Hal Mountain Dew so he can stay up all night and fix something when TFP goes haywire, that's fine. But I would like to know a little bit about how our money is spent (perhaps just the big picture, not the little tiny Mountain Dew oriented picture) because to me, sending money to the TFP IS an investment--an investment in keeping this place around.

"joint the fight" was funny.

Why would a community fight with itself?
It takes a village to raise a child, I've heard.

What's so opaque about a monthly hosting bill?

I suppose I would like to know how much the hosting bill is monthly (I'm sure this figure has been posted somewhere, but I haven't seen it lately), what percentage of that is paid by donors, any other costs incurred by the TFP, what the personal cost is to you each month, etc. Information like this might actually encourage people to donate more often.

You're not the trusting type, are you? I'm not a numbers machine, nor am I an accountant. All I have is a separate bank account that gets auto-deducted. When the balance reaches $0, I feel inclined to ask for donations. Why don't I just give you the login to my online banking account so you can keep track of the numbers for me.

Wow Hal, that actually sounds a little defensive. I don't think the idea ever occurred to me, but I guess snowy has a point. Depending on whether you want the donations to be seen as a "donation to pay the bills" or a "voluntary fee to secure future access" I think she has reasonable positions.

agreed....... dammit you ppl post fast! i take the time to read this and theres already 3-5 more posts.. i was agreeing that this was still a great place even if theres a little problem with a few members.

All over, reasonable. Justifiable, identifiable, worth considering, and genuine.

But it's not my thing. Maybe if I twisted arms to get donations, but I don't. If the site is in danger, I speak up, but otherwise I let donations come simply from the enjoyment my users get from the site. As it is, I'm not a very spectacular bookkeeper and I am quite put off by the busywork of putting up a report NOW when it hasn't mattered once before in the history of the site.

However since you begged.

This month's donat-o-meter:

$40/$300

What's that? 13.3%

We're almost there!

I am an excellent bookkeeper if you prefer that I contribute, rather than "snip from the sidelines."

No, Elphaba, I'd prefer you cough up on the "harm" you claimed I've done. I'm really interested to know.

also, about the donations: i don't think it should matter where the money went as long as the site is kept running. Like when i'll have spare money this summer, and i donate, i just need to know that the site will be there the next day.

Imagine...if you will, a scenario:


You are caring for an elderly relative, trying to make her comfortable, cleaning the linens and making breakfast , lunch and dinner. Checking to be sure the Medications are there, and taken regularly. You take this responsibility seriously, primarily because you love this dying relative dearly, and want her to be happy and comfortable.


Now....please explain to me exactly what you did for her, in detail....every month. I need this information because I pay taxes to supprt her medicare benefits, and want accountability.

Believe me, I care just as much, if not more than you. Not to say you don't care, I know you do, but I'm saying.. this site is on my resume (except when submitting to certain employers).

I paid a scribe to write it down so I could just focus on my work. Now, if only I knew where that scribe ran off to...

Jeeez.....I think some members need to lighten up.

I think the TFP is a great place to be. I don't see all these problems you're talking about. It's like a storm in a cup - try not to be so self-important.

Conflict, disagreement, difficulties in understanding or relating to one another....this is just a normal part of life everywhere, anywhere.

Last time I looked, I still liked being on the TFP. I am always puzzled by these threads revolving around dire discontent with the forum. If you're so unhappy, leave. There's plenty of other places to go! Maybe the TFP could use a little more of this, a little more of that. You know what might drive people away? 4 pages of ranting over what's wrong with the place.

I'll say it a 3rd time, the TFP is a great place. Thank you Hal for starting this forum. I donate because I want to. Like Hal said, there was no arm-twisting.

I think it's a waste of time dissecting the TFP from a pessimistic, "glass half empty" point of view. I do think there are some valuable points from a few posters that give ideas on how to get more members. But honestly for me, I like the TFP as is. Not always the same, always changing. Sometimes better sometimes worse. Like I said: life.

Quoted for Kingly truth.

Keep on Truckin', Halx.
Wouldn't change a thing.
Same people, different people its all good.
As far as improving traffic, you'll figure it out, if thats what you want.
Thanks for the ride thus far. :thumbsup:

little_tippler, you said such positive things and said them so well.
Your comments are appreciated and I agree with every word you said.

Thanks,
Art

God, Tippler... hitting the nail on the head :)

I believe you have made the assumption that since I didn't post in either C:A or the TFP thread that introduced that board, that I must be "sniping from the sidelines." Like many others, I read the posts in C:A and chose not to participate. Unlike some, I didn't feel the need to comment on what I saw at C:A in your TFP thread. I have read them both in their entirety. I don't read the journals and I was not privy to your private conversation with others, but it appears that I should have been aware of that knowledge before questionning your recent proclamation. Am I correct in my assumptions, so far?

Is it that you object to my term "debacle" or would you prefer "fiasco?" When I read mods' posts that they question the wisdom of your experiment, and members express the same feelings, is that what you mean by "success?" You tell roachboy that he is "over thinking" the experiment and that you didn't have an objective in mind, but now all is explained in your journal; is that where I will learn about your success in this experiment?

Do you believe that no "harm" was done when long surpressed ill will finally gave vent and spilled over to TFP? Do you believe that no "harm" was done when you dismissed the loss of respect that several people expressed? Do you believe that no "harm" was done when members felt it necessary to defend and choose sides; members against members?

I could continue, but you know very well what has been posted by your members and to say otherwise is simply dishonest. I am done "coughing it up" for you, because like you said, it is right before your eyes.

Pen

Boo hoo hoo.

You people take this all so seriously.

This is ridiculous.

I find it very ironic that so many people are dumping so much shit on Halx, and then these very same people express dismay when he becomes just a wee bit defensive.

A lot of you have an extremely inflated sense of self-importance.

Go create your own forum, and then aquire thousands and thousands of members. Then host the majority of the bill yourself. Do this for several years. And ensure that it is one of the most user-friendly forums on the net.

Then see how you feel when people start claiming they should have some sort of ownership, because they donated some money at some point or another. See how you feel when people start complaining about every little thing.

None of you would handle it even remotely as well as Halx has, and you know it.

Elphaba, I think you came to the party a day late.

If you are responding to my post, I have never claimed an "ownership" of this board, either financially or in any other way. It's Hal's alone, and I have never disagreed with that basic assumption.

My objection is very clearly stated as one of integrity of purpose. Hal believes it is obvious, and I question the transparency of his intentions. It really is quite that simple.

And a post late, to be sure. I would appreciate your update, Hal, on what I have missed.

Hell...I couldn't even know how it's done...even the 'HTML for idiots' tutorial went over my head :D
I feel I have to donate to cover my usage. Years ago I belonged to an online car club/forum that charged 'dues' for site maintenance and some club event backing. I didn't use that place half as much as here, but I use the same 'mindset'-once a year I donate what I can afford out of my tax refund and that's my 'usage dues' for TFP. I know it's not going to any hamburger ingredients, it's for this and I don't need an accounting report. I also don't think that doing so gives anyone special status or carte blanche and really couldn't care less if a profile says 'donor' on it. I'm paying for a 'service'.

King, you're usually a man of very few words, but when you use more than one, it's incredibly keen and spot on. I can tell you save'em up for special occasions ;)

Elphaba - what exactly does integrity of purpose mean? And why do you think that anyone needs to answer to you about anything?

Honestly it is not Halx's fault at all that people started talking shit on the other forum. Like the TFP, all he provided was an avenue; the participants did the rest. And really, who cares if some members don't get along? Like it was said before, the overall health of the forum is not dictated by a couple of members who dislike each other.

Halx wanted to see what would happen if he made a certain type of forum. Stuff happened. Experiment = success.

It's really none of your business (nor anyone else's) what Halx does with the donation money. He says he spends it on the site. Not transparent enough for you? Don't donate, then. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

No one forces you or anyone else to donate. Therefore you have no right to access a donation "log" or what ever it is some of you are wanting to see. It is simply not your place.

If you donate to anything, be it a political party or a charity, or this website, that doesn't guarantee you anything at all. It is simply a way for you to show your support. If you don't trust the donation process, then the alternative is obviously for you not to donate.

That is life.

^ Yeah, exactly. Nobody here is a fucking shareholder.

Well, to be fair, I don't think he meant that you were incapable of forming good opinions. He's been working a lot on improving the forums, and we (the staff) have taken all of these suggestions to heart. As Hal said, we're in the process of implementing a few of them (one suggestion, to combine some forums, has already begun- some of you may have noticed).

I think he felt a little sniped at only because he earnestly wants improvement here, and he'd like your help- indeed, everyone's help. The more specifically critical we can all be when delineating what we feel are the "faults", the better job we can do to make the changes you feel would really benefit the most. :)

I think the mixed feelings about Concept:Anarchy can be explained as exactly what any experiment is: "wait and see". I think we can all identify with starting a fun project, having no idea exactly what we want from it. Even better, it is sometimes much better for the "truth" of your results if you create the "experiment" as one-way-blind... one party (Hal) knows what the experiment is really about, but those who participate are given no initial directions, and are instead left to devise a course of action that they come across naturally, instead of having been prompted with "rules" or "guidelines".

I hope that we can all agree on one point, at least: whether or not there were initial "intentions", and whether or not Hal personally considers his experiment a "success", he did it because he truly felt people would enjoy it. I think that should get a bit more consideration when deciding if the result was ultimately his "fault". "Best laid plans of mice and men", and all that. Good intentions are just that, regardless of the outcome.

Elphaba, I understand you feel attacked... but I think Hal's sentiment to criticism has been one motivated more by exhaustion (with the work load of all the changes and whatnot that he's engineering for the TFP) than anything else, and it can sometimes feel like there's a disconnect when specific enough examples aren't brought along with certain types of criticism. Regardless, I'd be more than happy to help work out that detail via PM if you'd like, if you feel that this isn't the forum (excuse the pun) for processing your thoughts into an ordered list of observations. The point of this thread really is to get user feedback, and I'd love to help facilitate that for you.

I can think of few things more personally harmful to a community at large, than people arguing with each other- so thank you for pointing this out. I think, though, that the nature of some people is to engage others as they'd always wanted, in a consequence-free environment. The unfortunate backlash of members pushing that anarchistic freedom to the breaking point is probably not something anyone would have assumed would happen.

I mean, we're all part of this great community. I, personally, would never have guessed that such an experiment would cause such bitterness and anger to surface. I mean... we try to engage each other and be tolerant here on the TFP, but if you asked me a few weeks ago if I thought people would start ripping each other apart if given the chance- I'd have said no. Certainly there will always be some who act out of vengeance or become temporarily enamored with the appeal of consequence-free attacks, but that doesn't mean people can't come around and realize that they've just hurt people. I think the way the forum has progressed is a good example of that "calming down after the storm" atmosphere. Sure, it may not be what everyone would call "perfect", but it's certainly on its way- and it shows what growth we can all achieve together, even if left to our own devices.

When it all comes down to it, I think everyone has a great amount to offer in terms of participation, opinions, criticism, and dedication. The number of people who've posted in here just to say they love the place, and want to help make it better, is a testament to the goodness of which this place is capable.

I am sure that you, Elphaba, have great ideas in mind, and if we can resolve some bad feelings here, we can get down to adding your ideas to the collective effort we're seeing in here. :)

I look forward to hearing more from everyone, as we move forward in becoming stronger, together. :)

I think Analog said it better than I could have. My "integrity of purpose" is right where it needs to be. You'll have to look at your own lack of any kind of relationship with me to come to terms with your doubts and suspicions.

I was ready to post to analog how much I appreciated his thoughtful post and the consideration he has given to all that I and others have said. He and I have had a rocky relationship in the past so his post was all the more meaningful to me. Thank you analog.

WTF are you talking about, Hal? I need to develop a personal relationship with you, before I can have legitimate doubts? Man, you should have stopped with "I think Analog said it better than I could have."

You doubt... the integrity of my purpose. Heh.

i trust you hal. i just chipped $100 your way.

Hal-cover your eyes...you might blush or something....

I met Hal over two years ago, been here 3 years(seems longer somehow, but not in a bad way). On our second meeting up, we walked and talked for about 5-6 hours. I haven't been back to NYC since that time, but I have talked to him online or in chat. I say this to say this:
No one could ever doubt his integrity or his purpose; in those two years I've seen a terrific change for the better. Where there once was questioning of purpose, there is now statement of it. Where there once was a facade of nonchalance, is, in its place, an admittance of caring and concern for the people here. It's not that he ever doubted what he wanted, but he knows now what he has to do.
There's been mention of his being absent and the site going down from that-I noticed other very important people who've taken leave and come back and then too, the site goes down, then up. You get out of it what you put into it and a few put in stellar stuff-because they care enough to.
Sure there are a lot of ways to entice 'traffic'-advertize, wear a freakin tshirt every day with TFP.org on it, send emails with today's joke from anyone(@)tfp.org, but at the end of the day, if all we come in and see is negative banter and 'this is what's wrong here', eventually, no one is going to want to stick around.
Hal's brain is always churning and not everything he throws is going to stick to the wall, but a lot of it does. It's because of those that stick that I stick around and why most of us do and why some always...come home.

OK, Hal...you can open them now...

All this fighting amongst us is giving me a fucking headache and I don't like headaches.

Let's look at the indisputable facts:

1) We are all Halx's guests.... regardless of how we donate or what he thinks of us (personally, I doubt he even cares who Pan6467 is) or whatever.... but this is his house.

2) His house = his rules

3) Donations liked but he has never once come and said donate or leave, never once said there is an admission price, never once tried to force ANYONE on this board to pay. Thus, he owes nothing to anyone who does choose to donate. After 3-4 years, I think it is safe to say he is not going to take people's money and shut this place down tomorrow and buy a ticket to Tahiti.... (I'm sure there are times he wished he could.... here the nipples on the women's tits point skyward).

4) Halx could at anytime throw anyone of us out simply because he didn't like the user's name....... but he chooses to set rules.... and the ONLY agreement in TFP is that as guests we abide by his house rules and as the owner he will show you respect and you can post, view and come and go as you like. Break the rules face the punishment.

5) Halx has decided he wants more members, he's trying to find a way to get traffic, new blood can result in new topics, new opinions, new insights, new friendships, etc.

6) As guests we don't need to agree with Halx, we don't need to like what he's doing.... but in his house we need to respect his moves and not question them.

If we had a house we would expect Halx and everyone else here to respect our wishes.

I will say that it makes me uneasy to have intelligent and experienced people speaking out on my behalf. I may have earned respect from the product that the TFP is today (or has been in the past), but I'm not the type to just frame it and throw it up on the wall. I don't know if I'll ever be content, but we've got still got some work to do.

So, thanks for the support, but let's turn it into some good reading material for everyone, not just me.

LMFAO, of all the years I've been on the internet, shit back in the BBS days even, I've never seen this done, much less fucking asked for!
no offense, but shit, that's a ballsy expectation of a site admin. maybe it's just because Halx makes himself accessable that someone would actually think to ask...


fuck it, I'll leave this post

I stand behind World's King and Little Tippler. Just for the record...I'm newish here though and I have no knowledge to base the "good old days" on.

I'm very flattered, thank you. :) It's true we haven't been famous friends in the past- more like infamous enemies lol... but seriously, it's all about the connections. I hope that despite some rough patches, we can see through to our common goals, of just wanting to enjoy ourselves and be in good company. I can honestly say that my personal life has its share of people with whom I argue constantly, as a point of pride to our friendship. lol

And really, a thanks goes out to all of you who've stepped up in this thread to get your opinion in. It really helps us to have our "finger on the pulse", so to speak. We're looking towards the bridges we've built, hoping to make some new ones- and rebuild a few that have fallen into disrepair.

I think one of the most important things for the health of the community is that we maintain the feeling of community. Like I said- it's all about building bridges to people. One of the most important steps in that process is finding out what others want from their community, and working towards that together by steeping ourselves in your thoughts, your ideas, your dreams... whatever you've got to offer us. It is our sense of community that allows this unfettered exchange to take place, and our connections as friends to allow its frankness. Getting to know other people better, wanting other people to know you better, can only help to facilitate these exchanges.

There are many times in life when an opinion is needed- who do you look to for the most honest constructive criticisms? Your friends. I think that's what Hal is driving at, and I think we can all agree that getting to know people is what it's all about.

..............And, There It Is....................

Hal,

Calmeth down, and you too Tecmera - I simply think many people have no idea what goes into running a site like tfp, what the associated costs are, where their donations fit in. If i send in $50 every few months, what does that leverage out to, etc? So its $300/mo on average? maybe we read snowy's post differently, but i wasn't thinking about a monthly updated spreadsheet, but more of a birdseye view $$$ and time breakdown as to what it takes to keep the tfp up and running, and where you put the donations. i think its easy for people to forget how much work goes into making their online haunts work.

muchos de take careios,

el pig

edit: apparently, there was a whole page of replies when i posted this. nyquil meet thought. apparently ole dogbungle decided to join the dogpile, and smooth got up in there a little bit, throwing elbows and whatnot. as i said, i guess we read snowy's posts differently.

pigglet, I think you read my post correctly.

EDIT: /end participation

smooth:

whatever. my reference to you = joke. snowy != elph. i didn't ask for jackshit. i gave snowy some support, as i thought i could understand her request / point. there's no reason for you to be a dick to me, but if you simply enjoy it, that's fine - i have no problem standing up for myself.

yes, i want a pie graph, with labor costs extrapolated over a one year period, with fucking depreciation of serverware and incidentals, a bar graph with time and a tfp punchcard. i want all of this personally, hand delivered, in a manilla envelope with the little tie-down thingie, and i'd like it delivered by a refugee from guatemala riding backwards on a one-eyed donkey. any more problems, "buddy"?

Should those reports have a cover sheet and can you have those with your GPS reports on my desk by Monday....... uh yeah

I had a desk by the window.... I had a view of a tree, there were 2 squirrels... they were married

EDIT: /end participation

I was under the impression that being a "shareholder" in TFP just meant sharing your thoughts.

*shrug* I think it's pretty cut and dry, since he has the host request up-$200 a month=$2400 a year. Hosting is probably the easiest to understand-you're paying a company so their server can bring your site to the internet. Most of the upper echelon host servers give a package deal, ie; site hosting with a certain level of bandwidth usage, PhP capabilities, security capabilities, server maintenance, along with (if required or needed), shopping cart, popmail, chat, file archiving and site templates. None of this is ever broken down, except that a site owner can check site visitation and bandwidth usage; otherwise, it's all incorporated and the client uses the features as needed.
A small site like mine runs about $100 a year and I'll never use most of what's available in that deal.
Bandwidth is the come and go traffic generated by the site-obviously TFP needs a humongous amount. Site size also factors into the charge one pays-most hosts have a 'ladder' of offers based on the amount of gigs one needs. I suspect the number here is huge. And TFP needs a host that has good server history, not one that goes down every Wednesday because 'Steve' has that night off.
To make a long post shorter, it's not a simple thing to say 'this is where the donations' are going and break it down line by line when paying out. Either you trust that the $200 a month is the amount it costs or you don't.

/me steps into the ring and stretches his arms out, holding smooth and pigglet back from one another ;)

Let's try to get things back on track here guys, no need to get hostile

ng has summed things up pretty well. The most one can really ask for is a general monthly cost, in which case that's something that is already occasionally mentioned.

Why don't we have a meter? Because Hal doesn't prefer to do things that way. Meters come across as constantly asking for donations, and no one likes to be constantly reminded to "please donate!" through some meter. Instead, Hal lets people donate as they see fit, when they see fit, and only outright asks for money when the circumstances require it.

smooth: it does? god, i feel worse too. regardless, i'm dropping this other than to say there's no reason to shit on snowy for her request,in my opinion. perhaps i'm mis-reading your post, docbungle's etc - but i feel that many people are throwing out a subtle "if you were a part of the realdeal-holyfield-old-school-tfpclub, you wouldn't even ask such a thing!" vibe, and i don't think that's a part of the way the tfp operates. so i'm addressing it head on. i agree that i've never heard of anyone asking how our donations are spent, but i don't think its crazy for a donating member to ask how the money is spent. snowy has been a pretty regularly contributing member around here (at least in terms of posting - i don't know about her $$$ situation) for a while (i have no idea if/how many crashes she's been through if that's of particular importance to you), and i don't think its cool to dogpile her. the question she asked isn't an easy one to ask, so i'd like to give her support - even if its not something i'm really dying about myself. now the whole thing is going overboard. i don't frankly give much of a damn about it other than passing interest because i've never run a site before. yes, i did find the tone of all your posts in this thread to be condescending, and no i don't want to follow up on it here. if you'd like to take it to pms, feel free. i generally enjoy your posts when they come, so i'd really rather just let it drop. i think everyone in the thread is either trying to make tfp a better place, to the extent that such is possible.

^ How the money is spent? He already said - on the hosting bill.

...wait, there's a newbie's forum?

I just lurked for a bit and then posted soon as I had something to say. I got shot down a couple of times in the beginning because I didn't really have a good feel for the board yet, but that comes with the territory.

Is welcoming n00bs really an issue being brought up in this thread? I find that a little hard to swallow.

For the record, I was here for the server crashes. I've been here a damn long time. Also, for the record, I was not the one who said I was a good bookeeper. Elphaba said that.

And no, his time shouldn't be free. That's part of my point. I would like to see some kind of record in the hopes that Hal doesn't have to pay out of his own pocket, and makes enough money from us donating so that the cost of his time is also covered. I KNOW he does this because he loves the TFP and cares about the future of the site, and I KNOW he doesn't really care too much about the money, but to me, he deserves to be taken care of in that respect. He has done a lot for this place, and we can do a lot for him in return. I was just asking for a little more accounting and a little more transparency in return for my future donations towards that. That's all.

I'm just here to generate ideas, not cause furor, uproar, and fights. I don't want people to take sides or see this as some major issue I'm rooting for, because I'm not. Hal has made it clear that he is not interested in financial transparency, which is fine with me. I was just making suggestions towards the betterment of the site, as I said.

Also, for the record, I donate as much as I can, when I can--which, being a student, is usually when my financial aid check comes in.

here's something strange (and maybe offtopic, but tant pis, there have been worse problems): tfp is more anarchist than the anarchy forum.

you can look at this thread as a type of collective deliberation about the way tfp operates--so as an experiment in collective self-management. if self-regulation means anything in a netformat, it'd look like this thread does--sometimes messay, sometimes annoying, but nonetheless getting to a sense of how the machinery operates, what the informal power relations are within that machine, how the rules get formulated and implemented, etc.. folk are talking as a community about the community. and in the main, they are taking that talking as a community pretty seriously. that's not so bad, despite the small waves of pissiness that course across sectors of it.

hal is in a curious position in all this, and i find the ways in which his responses have worked here to be very interesting---the tension is real between being the guy who set this machinery up and put it into motion as over against the way in which the community that has taken shape within that machinery has evolved and devolved and evolved---and i understand the conflicts that run through his posts between these two poles--the sense of ownership as over against the sense of putting a structure in place and letting that structure influence a community that itself now, in significant ways, runs the show. it's an interesting example of how the tension must work for him alot of the time--and for myself, i think it is being managed quite nicely. perhaps not with absolute elegance at every moment--but who is absolutely elegant at every moment about a complicated matter that affects them personally? i sure am not. are you?

putting a process of self-regulation into motion does not mean that there are no problems--it is about the ways in which those problems are addressed. so if the fact of this thread has meaning in itself, it is probably mostly about the underlying good health of the community as a community--even as folk disagree about this or that.

that seems to me something important, and something that should be said. so there it is.

On the opposing side, TFP's costs are none of my business or concern. I contribute what I feel it's worth (which hasn't been much lately). Petty bickering, name-calling, heavy handed moderation, and a real lack of civil, intelligent discussion have lessened my interest and participation. Do what you need to do to increase membership, but remember that retaining present members is important, too.

I still check back from time to time hoping to see a renaissance

I want to say that roachboy has spoken true what I wished to communicate many times. Many people may be reading this thread and observing the "drama" that is going on and they may be asking, "What has this forum come to?" Well it's simple. It means that the forum is alive and well, and that people care about it. Yes, people are arguing, and many people are disturbed by that. To those people I ask, "What passion comes without conflict?"

This thread is the pulse of the TFP right now, and as you can see, it is pumping hard. Do you know what misattribution of arousal is? It's when you're like, on a date at a theme park and you just got off the roller coaster and your heart is beating fast... and you feel sorta horny. So you turn to your date and they have that look in their eye. You might also recognize this phenomenon from various action movies. Anyways, my point is...

After this is over, let's all make out and have sex.

Chimera looks at Halx....looks at his Avatar...looks back at Halx........the Avatar....


I am so confused


But he/she did say sex

There's my problem...I hate roller coasters and action movies :lol:

The evolution of humanity, sexuality, and philosophy.

In that order, right?

We're all evolving, all the time, if not biologically.
tfp is.

Agreed. I'll be waiting. ;)

I like roller coasters and sex. Sounds like my dream date.

Well, speaking of calling "bullshit..."

I think it's obvious to most people here that you got two posters mixed up and it fails to support the legitimacy of your claims. One of my biggest peeves is people who don't actually read the posts they're responding to and this is a fine example of it...

Stan, your issues around existing membership have been noted and, as always, we are working on it. However, it is your last comment I want to address.

Don't wait for a renaissance.

If you value this place, make the renaissance happen. Start posting new things. Start replying to threads. If, "petty bickering, name-calling and a real lack of civil, intelligent discussion" are the issue lead by example.

This goes for everyone (including me).

This man...this...Charlatan, speaks true. :bowdown:
Out of 5 pages of posts...this is what it all boils down to folks. Don't wait...don't whine...don't bicker...don't pout...don't reminisce. Make this place your own. I see plenty of desire...now show me some drive.

[whiney voice]"But I miss the TFP the way it waaaass"[/whiney voice]
Bullcrap! The TFP has always gone in cycles. It has always had its' ups and its downs.
The way it used to be? Why? We can make it better. We have before, and we will again.

Halx can only put sand in the box. It's up to the rest of us to bring the toys. And if the sandbox gets some leaves, sticks and cat poop in it, we don't need to piss and moan about it. That takes away from valuable play time. We clean it out.

Why is it that everyone seems to be obsessed with "the way things used to be"? First and foremost, let me state for the record that I wish there was more traffic here like there was when I first joined.

That aside, I'm still not convinced there's any systemic problem with the overall board. Do I wish certain individuals would post more or less or in some cases come back? Absolutely. Do some threads devolve into sniping and name calling? Of course. Whenever anyone can post semi-anonymously, that's always going to happen.

There's plenty of intelligent discussion going on at TFP, and I see it every day. There certainly needs to be more of it, and, IMO, if anything needs to be done, it's in adding more intelligent voices to the mix. This place isn't for everyone, and one of the things I like about it is that it's a lot like my college experience - a bunch of very disimilar people all thrown together who's only common trait was their intelligence and location.

Stan, I sort of understand where you're coming from with some of your objections, but I really wish someone would point out systemic examples of "heavy-handed moderation" or a general "lack of civil conversation". I can find individual examples of each, but those seem pretty few and far between to me.

This is the third time I've posted in this thread (I think), and I still have yet to receive any sort of satisfactory answer on any sort of real problem. Maybe I'm too dense to see it, and maybe I'm asking in the same manner as Daoust did in chat, but I really don't any problem besides attracting not only people but the right kind of people.

All this leaves aside the question of money and time spent moderating this place. Those don't seem relavent to the greater issue.

Jazz,

The only "problems" I've personally witnessed are:

1. situations such as the one I previously referenced where someone was pretty heavily reprimanded for using language / grammar / "off-color" humor in a post. Many moons ago no one would have blinked an eye at heavy sarcasm and using potty language; now people seem to get seriously upset if everyones "not taking it seriously" when they post. It often feels like we're in group therapy, not playtime.

2. If we want more traffic, then that's a problem. Because we don't have it. More traffic, I mean.

I think that's the stuff I've picked up from this thread, more or less. Of course, there's the ton of stuff that is great about the tfp, but I won't bother enumerating that. I think there's a thread on it somewhere :)

No way of making
situations involving
what you are wanting?

(Now I AM confused.)

I will do whatever it takes.......except post in Politics :lol:

I will do (almost) anything it takes and I will post in politics. :)

you are a better woman than me.....Im too scared of that place!!! they do scary things in there http://messageboard.techsavy.net/sty...pingsmiley.gif

I want more
Sorry to say it
What have we?

EDIT: /end participation

Hal:

In support of keeping new members, I have a few suggestions that seemed to work in the only other forum I have participated in. I know you are reworking the Newbie forum so perhaps you have already considered my suggestions. My thoughts are:

1. Please don't call them newbies, noobs, or anything like that because those terms are not respectful of a new member. I recommend that your forum be give another, more encouraging name such as "Welcome New Members... read this first". or something like that.

2. You can get far more personal and proactive with your welcome to new members than currently exists. In that other forum I mentioned, new members were primary to the owner in growing the board. He gave focus to new members with the use of "mini-mods." (My term, not his) They were volunteers and chosen by the mods for a defined period of time. Six months proved to be too long, so I recommend three months of temporary service to the Welcome Forum.

3. Temp "Mini-Mods" or any other participant of your choice, should pick up a new member at the time that they have passed through your screening. I am certain that you must have an auto-message welcome, but is it possible to copy to a mini-mod for a personal welcome? These new members haven't yet posted to the introduction topic, and the intent is to encourage them to post there from the get-go, rather than to lurk. The message can even be very boiler-plate in encouraging that first post, which allows for a followup post addressing the new members particular interests.

Example: Elph, welcome to tfp and we look forward to your participation. Our members have many interests, and if you will share your interests when introducing yourself (link), we will be able to guide you to the forums that you might enjoy most on this board.

If I can offer my personal assistance in addressing any questions you may have, please reply to this private message.

I am looking forward to your introductory post, and getting to know you.

Pen

____________________

This did work, but it was a much smaller board than this one. Hence, my suggestion for temporary volunteers. Once a new member introduced themselves and hopefully provided their interests, a second level of response would occur. The person is serious now by this post, and a serious welcome is in order by anyone that shares this person's interests.

The way I handled that was to respond to the post that "Member X" seems to know most about that, or our members interested in photography can be found in these threads (links). That level of participation with new members requires dedicated folks and I think you have many of those.

My 2 cents, Hal. Truce?

smooth... KnifeMissle...

We're all here for the same reason, because we like this place. If we didn't like this place, we wouldn't all be here doing what we're doing- which is making this place better.

I know you guys are enjoying your back-and-forth, but that's not what this thread is about, and it's not what the TFP is about. Let's agree we have differences in personality, and that we will certainly never ALL be of one mind. For me, I wouldn't have it any other way. Who wants everyone agreeing with each other? That would be very boring.

I know there may have been misunderstandings, and I know that people like to place blame so they can feel as though they've moved on from a topic. The thing is, that's not really moving anyone on- not temporarily, and not for the long run, either.

So... let's even forget about apologies, unless someone wants to step forward and just extend a handshake, and move on with the business of making the place better. Arguing over who said what, and how it was meant, and why someone thinks they're right, is not getting us further along the path... it's stalling us, if not dragging us backwards. This is what we're working towards... being able to disagree without involving this blame-game.

As Halx once said, "Do not form your arguments on the weakness of others' points, but on the strength of your own." I think that's a very relevant statement on the blame-game phenomenon of "discussion".

So... let's move forward respectfully, and get some TFP problems solved, ok? You two are both members who've been around long enough to really help the contribution in this thread, so let's get some of your experienced input on this.

Thanks :)


Elphaba:

Those are awesome suggestions. What I can say is that some of those things that you mentioned have actually been on our minds and considered already, and may actually be put into practice some time soon. Sorry I can't say more yet. ;) :)

whatever. I don't enjoy it at all. why people read that into my posts is beyond me. it's evidently something that no matter how softly I speak that people can never let the past go and wrap their notions of my ancient behavior into my current responses--no matter how inaccurate.

I take long breaks from this place but whenever I drop in for a visit there's some variation of piss and moan threads like this one.

I've made suggestions in the beginning of this thread...the rest of my replies have been suitably edited. I'm with nizzle...

/end participation

Elphaba, I like and appreciate your suggestions. I'm trying to incorporate as many of the good ideas I've received that I can, and your own is being considered. In the past, we've had many justifications to ignore some good suggestions in favor of a stubborn "Our way works just fine" attitude. Right now, I notice that I am very welcoming of all input and it feels much more worthy.

We'll keep everyone updated.

and truce accepted on the condition that you read the "Moderator Mission" post and give your honest thoughts.

I'm not sure. It seems like we're falling back into the old habits of, "let's just all get along."

It seems too status quo. The fact is that it's impossible with a membership this size to expect everyone to get along. Not allowing a venue where these differences can be aired is what led up to this whole debacle in the first place.

This might be taking the analogy too far, but I hope you get my meaning: For years, the Soviets forced Yugoslavians to get along. Any dissent was swiftly surpressed. Look what happened once that control was lifted.

I'm not even sure we're rocking the boat here. I think we might be just shaking a martini.

Oh yeah, well fuck you jj!!!

edit: that IS a joke.

I don't recall anyone talking about suppressing their difference of opinion. In fact, the last I heard of any talk like that it was everyone supporting the idea of having freedom to "call a spade a spade" when it's called for. An idea I support with much enthusiasm.

Just as we should not be alarmed by personal differences among members, maybe we shouldn't be too alarmed when we're getting along, as well.

...oh, and fuck you. :) <-----joke

hey, i thought you just had your special weekend...aren't you about out of booty-juke yet? ;)

It's never enough, baby. :suave:

Done, even before I knew of the condition. :)

If airing out your social frustrations is important to you, I'm not sure what to say. One thing I'd like to change about the status quo here is the labeling that goes on. Opinions have the right to be heard. I think the invitation to "call a spade a spade" has demonstrated quite quickly that the real power is in the majority. This, to me, is unacceptable.

I interpreted the invitation to "call a spade a spade" to be an invitation to speak your mind freely without breaking the rules. I can see where that idea is open to interpretation, though. From what I gather in previous posts there seems to be a fair amount of people who don't feel free to voice differing opinions with a little passion or vigor without getting tapped on the shoulder by a mod. While I've not encountered any situations grave enough to mention here, I have noticed mods take great strides to avoid conflicts among members. I'm supposing that's what is being referred to and I'd have to agree that a little passionate talk, especially on controversial subjects, is not a bad thing. It's that subtle line between passionate defense or rebuttal and personal attacks that needs to be carefully walked. For the most part I think the mods here do a great job. Of course, I came here from a politics board where being called a "scumsucking liberal traitor" is almost de riguer for any self-respecting liberal. *shrug* BUT, that said in discussions there with REASONABLE people all that passion and vigor often translated into mutual respect and acceptance in the end. When this is allowed to happen there can often develop a tendency for the community to take care of itself. I think TFP is already doing that to a large extent due to the mindset of of the regular contributors and their longstanding relationships.

blah, blah, blah...I can't write anymore right now...hopefully all that fits together.

mm, I see your point, and speaking your mind is a needed thing. However, skipping past the point of a post and charging right at the poster is not my idea of an open discussion. Everyone has the right to comment on a subject with their opinion, however attacking the poster is right out.

I agree. And sometimes it can be a subtle distinction. Very often not so subtle. I feel comfortable with your mod team making these distinctions. But just as regular members should not jump the gun and attack another member for their ideas, perhaps sometimes, lacking outrageous rule infractions, mods should let discussions simmer and see what they end up with. I'm not saying they don't do this already, largely I'm playing devil's advocate here based on what other people have said. I could be totally off base.

We may be misunderstanding each other. The point that I was making was that forcing everyone to play nice all the time can result in what happened this past week or 2. This is exactly what I don't want to happen. By forcing, I don't mean heavy handed moderation, but social pressure to not rock the boat.

What I'm afraid of happening is that we all say what's on our mind over the next few days, then revert back to the status quo of being as inoffensive as possible. Not through executive decision, just through habit. If that happens, then we just end up going in a cycle that will bring us right back here in another year or so.

If I'm giving the impression that what I'm looking for is to air frustrations freely in a vitriolic manner as I did, then I'm not communicating my position very well. So give me some time to figure out how to better say what I'm trying to say and I'll post back.

Okay, this is fairly close to what I'm getting at, but I don't want to just parrot mixedmedia's post because I still want to be able to communicate my point coherently in my own words.

Well I dont think I am forcing people to play nice. I'm telling people to be mature and address topics responsibly. I'm telling people to try and get the most out of a post instead of dismissing it based on its author. None of this is telling people to smile and hug eachother, even if you don't like the other person.

Maybe I'm blind, but I'm not aware of any "forced" social pressure (or moderator pressure) to not rock the boat around here.

Sure, I'm aware of my own inhibitions to discuss certain topics or confront certain people, both online and in real life. But those are my own preferences and choices, and they are not dictated by force from others around or above me. It's just the way I do business in general.

I guess I don't understand all these references to repressing "what you really felt but could never say" and blaming your own cowardice on the idea that someone else is "keeping you down." I mean, are you really afraid of those big scary mods, or even what anonymous "internet entities" will think of you? I don't think so. What are people so afraid of around here, other than themselves? :orly:

Sometimes I think this has nothing to do with the board and everything to do with people being human. Which isn't going to change anytime soon. :)

Just get on with it! To those who feel "social pressure" not to speak against the "PTA with porn," I say: suck it up, sweetheart. It takes a lot to get banned.

We've seen a flurry of increased activity over the last few days from new and old faces so let's take advantage of the new angles we see introduced here. It's not so much a matter of staying "positive," as it is to be productive and contribute.

Whether you know it or not, naysayers are adding to the direction we are going in. That direction might be up or down or sideways, but we are moving. Evolution doesn't have an end. It is a process which suits us to our surroundings.

Some of us are anchors and some of us are sails.

I realize I haven't been posting as much as usual...but spring semester did just start up and that requires a lot of time and energy. I've been trying to get on a bit more but my time is kind of limited.
I think there is too much pressure on the whole system...let it flow and work the way it will. Forcing participation doesn't help in my opinion.
I think it's just a lull and will pick back up sooner rather than later. Pretty sure that happens to a lot of forums...nothing to fret over.
Saying and talking about the "problem" isn't going to magically fix it.
I think the TFP is great overall. Just have fun with your peers, let's not magnify something that very well might not exist in the first place.

Wow. Where did that come from? I offer up flame bait in a daily basis? Somehow that doesn't sound right. What kind of bait are we talking about?

Jailbait.