Pan, a lot of what you say backfires. Those who protest what's going on at C.A. have obviously hit some kind of nerve and you end up writing large posts telling them to back off. The notion that we all need to "chill and have fun" feels like a stand-up comic at a funeral and while I can tell you have a good heart, you can't deny that feelings are getting hurt over there.

You can't tell me the best advice against hurt feelings is "lighten up and have some fun."

I admit it, even though I haven't been personally slandered there, I feel bad inside knowing that people that I used to respect have been surprising me with the things they are saying...and that goes for both sides of the central conflict playing out. I am hurt. That's what motivates me to write so much here.

I anticipate a lot of "boo hoo, aberkok," from the punks, to whom I say two things:

1.) I'm being honest about my feelings, which is more than I can say for most.

2.) If you weren't behind a computer, I could show you some martial arts moves I learned in Hong Kong....to your face.

Please keep in mind that the "mass" majority over there you are speaking of are people left that think that kind of crap is "fun".

Those of us that don't and find it extremely juvenile had stopped participating, that doesn't mean we aren't reading to see to what lengths some are going to to tear people down and those that chose to defend them, it means we are no longer posting. I stopped posting the same night after it became apparent what behavior was going to "rule" the land

A lot of us are not "whining" we are in shock about the behaviors of people that some of us held a certain amount of regard for and unfortunately that regard is gone now.

Like you stated, I didn't go there for approval, but I don't condone whats going on and by continued posting there thats what I feel I would be doing.

A few lurking glances into the new playpen was enough for me to see that its not how I like to play and have fun.

I only hope Charlantan is wrong and it doesnt spill back onto TFP.

Wow, I had a look and that was just sad. If anarchy looks like that, no wonder it doesn't work. You poor misguided youngsters, go outside and do something constructive with your time, the internet is rotting your brains.

MM, you are one tough "broad", and I respect that immensely. You're right, you know, if I bitch about bitching and tell people that if they pass judgement they should go fuck off...... I should respect their opinion when they tell me to go fuck off....

For the record I was telling people that go to C:A only to pass judgement and complain about behavior to fuck off..... not you necessarily.

I like that in you..... tough, sassy and not afraid to let loose. You're a rare breed.....

Charlatan, I don't see this destroying TFP, in fact it may strengthen it. I see it as a place where people can go let loose frustrations, not take things too seriously and enjoy themselves. And I simply see lines being drawn.

Do I think Daoust and Sheesus and JJ and NG and so on will hate each other and destroy TFP because of what was done over there?

No, I simply see them being upset with each other and eventually those that want to be at C:A will be and those that want to be here will be and those of us who enjoy both places will wonder back and forth.

There is a place and time for both behaviors and attitudes.

I agree. I am hurt and shocked by what others I respect are doing. But as I stated, I ignore it, move on and do my thing.

I think a lot of it has to do with the power and the "send good vibes" send bad vibes" type structure. It does eventually lend itself to mob mentality.

Doesn't mean I need to get caught up into it.

My posts above are to just try to get some people to realize that it doesn't matter what people think or say about you, just be you, in doing so and opening your eyes to what is truly there you may find more people support you than disagree with you.

If I post there, it doesn't mean I condone bad behavior, it means I like the idea I can post a different way there.... I use a lot of Monty Python there .... absurdity begets absurdity....and maybe people actually see one of my posts and smile while 99 hate them, hate me and attack me. I don't care about the 99, but the one I made smile made my posts worth it.

But in the end it's all opinion..... yes, perhaps I go into length defending what I percieve shouldn't need defending.... but I'm sharing my opinion and why I enjoy C:A.

Thank you for your kind words, pan, both here and the say something nice thread. I don't take them lightly.

But I think the key thing that rubs me the wrong way about CA, and which aberkok mentions above, is that I don't believe many of the members over there are behaving honestly. It's a game to them. And a game that causes real hurt to people who don't deserve it. I don't see anything fun or constructive about that. I don't believe people need a place where they can go and verbally abuse people. In fact, I think indulging that impulse is unhealthy and highly deconstructive. As is evidenced by the mass dismay being voiced on this thread. I think it just goes to show that the filter of the internet does not prevent people from being hurt by what goes on there. I don't think the removed nature of the internet should free people from common decency. Most especially among its virtual communities where there is a certain amount of trust in each other that has been painstakingly nurtured. I hope that this doesn't signal the end of TFP, goddammit I just got here! And truthfully, I don't think it does, but I do think there will be lasting residual baggage to be dealt with because of what has occurred at CA. Some lessons are hard-learned.

I haven't even gone there to look and see what's going on, to be honest I am afraid of what I'll see, and who I'll see saying it.

It sounds like choosing between the red pill and the blue pill--return to the world I'm comfortable with, or see true colors (to an extent, there are still filters and motivations in place that may not be readily apparent) and know another version of "truth" and be unhappier. But I don't need to see all the ugliness of the world to know it exists. I don't delude myself into imagining that people package and present themselves here at TFP exactly and honestly the way they are "In Real Life".

Like M2, I don't think it's constructive to offer a place where people are allowed to operate to the lowest common denominator. We have the whole rest of the internet for that. I seek to spend my time in places where I can grow and better myself as a person and with people who will encourage me, and where I do the same for others. I don't mean to sound holier-than-anyone, those are just my goals and my action plan. Personally, I see NO benefit to rolling around in e-mud.

Oh, it already has, if you ask me. My feelings towards a good number of people have already changed, and there won't be any going back on that.

And for the record (Pan)... I checked it out a few times, never registered, and am not going back even to look again. Had my fill.

I think they are behaving more honestly than they could here. In true anarchy, true nature comes out.
There's a lot of threads that are just pasttime fun. Alas, it doesn't take but one to destroy any fun one might have had. Luckily, there were two..:rolleyes:
I think it's really sad that, even if 5 people say the same thing, one can become the punching bag simply by virtue of existing.
The wonder is, how do you get to such a position of blatant hatred for someone to the point of being mean and hurtful just to kill their spirit, then come back to homebase and continue on? You essentially kill any position of respect for yourself, no? Can anyone with conscience do that and expect to walk through the door to open arms? Hell, I'd be embarrassed to even try..

Just to mention, I don't think that a snap shot of someone at their worst behavior (or at least a behavior that the perceiver deplores, "worst behavior" being fairly subjective) is necessarily a glimpse of their truest colors.

Its funny, I was just thinking about this recently in a completely different environment.

But say you happen to find out someone you are friends with did something you think is awful. If that is a non-repeated behavior, it doesn't define their whole being, and I don't think it should be viewed as a snapshot of their complete essence in a nutshell.

Just because someone has lied, for instance (and we all have), doesn't mean it's correct to categorize them as a "Liar". In that case, we are all liars, and I believe that would be a pretty 1-dimensional way to evaluate people. However, if they lie all the time and never change that behavior, then yes, I think it would be accurate to consider them as "A Liar".

It goes way beyond any snapshot....some of the behavior has been seen in drips and controlled drabs; it's the sheer delight of taking that to a (self-approved) new height (or lows, whatever) that brings on evaluations.

I think this thread alone is a success.

That I respect Abaya. Someone who says, "it's not for me" and walks away.

I've lost respect for some people also.... doesn't mean they are bad people, just means what I expected from them was too high of a standard, perhaps they set it perhaps I set it.... doesn't mean I dislike them, just may not look at them the same way I did before. But such is life and friendships.

It isn't for everyone.... probably isn't for me, but I'm too lost in being able to pass the scriptures of Monty Python and working to get 1 out of many to smile and have a better day for even a brief second, to notice.

Damn, I'm wordy and I don't say anything...... it's official.... I've become a true psycho babbler......

I'm finding it interesting how people react. "I've lost respect for _______." To me, that's taking yourself too seriously. Losing respect for someone because they let loose in some fashion is as fake as it gets. In my head, my little world, we're all the same. We have pains, resentments, annoyances, peeves and prejudices. If you let them come to the surface, its no different than if you keep them inside; you still have them. Judging people on such a scale is pretentious and simply not *real* - real in the artistic sense.. you know, keepin' it real.

Face it, people, the world is dirty. The TFP just cleans it up a little, but it doesn't change the people participating in it.

Ok, this is probably gonna fall on deaf cyber-ears, but...
I'm not even there and it's become a slugfest with everyone else.
KNOCK IT OFF ALREADY!!
People I have good relationships with are at each other's throats with insulting crap, obviously designed to see who can sling mud the hardest.
Stop. Just freakin stop.




Gawd, I have heartburn....:mad:

**edit
I give up


Halx, I really hope for your sake what you got out of this was worth everything its causing

I am in agreement with you. There's nothing going on over there that's "real" in any sense other than there are actual words being used to purport it. And if I'm just old and not "with it" then so be it. There's nothing more "real" about being an ass because you can than not being one because you have to.

Halix.... is the new CA forum on a shared server with TFP? Are those who donated to keep TFP alive and growing also subsidizing this new forum?

I'm not a donor (for reasons of my own choosing) so you dont really owe me an explanation. I was just wondering.

So you'd not feel any differently about someone you previously felt a kinship with if they constantly burst into tears at any or no provocation? If they crapped on your desk (or monitor, I suppose, to try to make a better analogy)? If you discovered they liked censoring other people? Restricting sexual expression?Insert any behavior you don't care for/actively dislike here.

Yeah sure, we're fundamentally the same. We feel the same things. It's how we deal with it that defines us as a person. Letting loose is the not problem, it's bringing others down in the process that's the problem, don't you think? Going out and getting drunk and hung over to deal with something isn't gonna hurt anyone else, but getting drunk and then starting a bar room brawl or killing someone else driving drunk afterwards is.

I don't think it is so much "respect" as it is what you have come to expect from a certain person. It is easy to only see what the other wants revealed on the net. (In RL people have tells you can pick up personality "flaws" a lot more easily.)

So when you see a person you always expect to act a certain way, act a different way, and the expectations you had for that person are let down, it is easy to say "I've lost respect for......".

In doing so though, you may hurt the people you named's feelings, causing them to feel you are attacking them and thus they rear back and attack.... then the freefall starts.

And when the dust clears, the only 2 things that become truly certain is .... everyone has a darkside that someone else isn't going to like and that you've ruined friendships over false perceptions and lofty ideals the other could never have achieved.

As my sig on the other sight says (the opening sentences fronm the Great Gatsby) it is very true and they are words to live by.

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.
'Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone,' he told me, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had.'

I kinda agree with most of the previous post, but I have to point out that I don't think it's an overly-lofty goal to expect people to not be mean, unkind, etc.

I do think it's good that people realize that you don't truely get to *know* folks thought this filter of an internet forum. You think you do, but you don't. It's like those first Big Brother reality shows in a way. There's types of editing and presentation with different motivations that we don't/can't know about. Like television programs, the internet is a very real filter, and folks need to keep that in mind all the time. What all folks present on TFP is a persona, and the degree to which it reflects how an individual would match still subjective interpretation of the more immediate personal presentation of a "real life" person varies wildly--and for the most part, we'll never have that opportunity to know.

Even how people perceive and present themselves without intent to impress or mislead can be very different from how I end up seeing them.

Hal, I think you're missing the point of what's happening. If the result of your "experiment" over at on that other forum is a "success" here, then what I said before only applies more. It was an ill-conceived idea that is damaging the quality of interactions here and driving members away. If you want to see the "real" side of people, you will have to get to know them in many different contexts and accept that you may never now them (or even yourself) fully. I think whatever it is you are after has NOT been achieved, and if you think it has been, then it was an awfully poor idea to begin with (which is what I have suspected all along).

Part of what allows evolution here is the diversity of thought and our ability to express it on an equal basis. Obviously, what is happening on the other board is the antithesis of TFP's mission. But you can't keep them separate. Maybe, Hal, your master plan was to put up this foil to rouse everyone's feathers because it was getting too boring around here... in that case, nice work I guess. But I have noticed I'm not the only one who thinks this was an incredibly stupid idea coming from somebody who is trying to increase (or even just maintain) traffic through here and keep donations coming in. Perhaps I am just the only one who is rude enough to say it outright. At this point, all I can do is throw my hands in the air and wonder why.

People don't just become mean.

What I think has happened is that people went over wanting to have fun, shake things up a bit.... and did. But, what people didn't expect was that to some, being mean, namecalling, etc was their way of shaking things up and I don't think they truly meant any of it at first.

Then someone who saw a way of "getting power over others", who saw a way of getting approval from the mob mentality, effectively took control and the attacks became more personal, more angry, more bitter and "evil". Quite an ingenious plan really.

Problem is, once you drive away those the mob "doesn't feel belongs" you are still left with the originator's anger, bitterness and hatred..... and that person is smart enough to see that and is such a good manipulator that he/she will start feeding the mob to themselves..... so that in the end the only one left is the originator.... and they don't even see it as their fault, it is everyone else's because everyone else had the problem.

But what do I know.... I sit in a corner play tiddly winks, observe what is going on and ramble some psychobable that may or may not have merit to it.

In some ways, I disagree. I think respect can be lost; I don't have to be friends with someone to respect them and their space. And up until the meltdown, I did just that all along, yet was 'told' I hate people...Hell, the only things I hate are asparagus and the smell of coffee. (ok, flame me for that one!!:lol: )
Life's too short to hate on people. But hate is what is coming to the surface and it's spreading like a fire out of control. I find it ridiculously sad.
Yes, everyone has a dark side, some darker than others and some that might surprise one or two. It's a level acceptance of that imperfection that determines the difference between respect because they're another human being and friendship. But once that darkness becomes the norm and dictates the course of action, the respect can and does go way down or disappears.
Allowing the worst of yourself to dictate your behavior, not censuring yourself and crossing boundaries with full knowledge that you are going to destroy another, to me, at least, kills my respect for you (ok, 'you' as in unknown entity, just to be clear!) My bad behavior was the result of that killing of respect and trust. So I censured myself.
At the end of the day, you have to feel good about something you did and know that,even if it didn't make a postive difference in life, at least it didn't do purposeful destruction. Some don't get that, apparently.

Anger, hate, negativity is easier to spread and spreads much faster and with much more intensity than positivity, love, friendship, understanding.

Noone is above letting the negativity take control. Rash decisions, emotions and just actions before thinking happen, they are natural instincts that we as humans have used to survive for all these years.

But that is when you step back look at what is going on and make the conscience decision to walk away, stand and fight and stay negative, become a lighthouse beacon and try to spread a little light or ignore the negativity and do your best to bring your positive energy in.

But again, that's just my view on life in general.

I think this is a fine viewpoint and good words to live by, but we are not dealing with a situation in which they are completely applicable. We are dealing with a few people whose idea of freedom has been from the start "anything goes which means I'm free to act like a churlish, immature putz." I think most people are coming to the obvious conclusion that the only thing to do in this situation is to walk away. To stay and fight is ridiculous because everything you say to defend yourself is simply more ammunition to be manipulated and thrown back in your face. There is no negotiating the exchanges, because they are not real. And, frankly, I see no point in it. There is no artfulness in this conception of anarchy. No insight or overriding philosophy. It's just people talking trash and, in some cases, using the venue to ventilate their pre-existing grudges.

And let me throw this in since we're being all open and anarchic and everything. If ever true anarchy were to hit the streets of the good old USA, I like to think that it's people like those acting buffoonish over on CA who would be the first to go running on home to mommy. It's real easy to be a big mouth behind a computer.

Totally agree with ya there, Pan:thumbsup:
It is easier and more instinctive to say 'yea, well, you're a ***' back. And it is hard to say 'enough-I'm better than this' and walk away. I know I'm better than this....

Phil's sig is so true and for the longest time I didn't get it:
Don't wrestle with a pig.
You both get dirty.
The pig likes it.:thumbsup:


Edit; Damn, this thread is moving fast....

pan, you sorta spoke my point. A few insults over at CA were thrown just in the stupid spirit of insulting for no reason. They were fake. They were said in order to hurt, but did not reflect any real genuine emotions. And thats what "I've lost respect for" also communicates. There is no respect-o-meter that just dropped 40 points upon reading of said posts... its just empty posturing meant to shock someone into shame for their actions.

Sultana, all people need to be understood. If there was an action, there was a reason for the action. The real reason may not be the apparent one, so you might have to dig deeper. Either way, those reasons might reveal a much more complex picture than simply, "this guy is immature." I'm never prepared to pass judgement because of that.

But my post that you reference doesn't have a thing to do with people being mean. It addresses Presentation, Perception, Context, Subjectivity, and because I can't remember the better phrase I wanted to use, Preconceived notions.

This whole thing is looking like Lord of the Flies.

it seems to me that there are at least two problems: one the strange design of the "anarchy" forum; the other the place/meaning of fratboy "humor". on the first, i have already said more or less what i have to say--because the nature and structure of the board is not collectively deliberated, there is no experiment in self-governance happening. what is happening is a simple inversion of how this space (say) operates. this combined with the emphasis on there being "no rules" makes the outcome--that folk do not appear to be operating with any sense of responsibility to anyone or anything--predictable.
so i think one problem lay in the idea behind the anarchy forum. i dont think there was a whole lot of thought behind it. sorry, but that's how it looks.

on the fratboy tendency: maybe this is a purely aesthetic thing on my part, or maybe it is a reflection of my mode of being as old fart, but i haven't found anything on that board (i have looked at it several times) funny or interesting at all.
i think in the end i value a sense of care in posts. this doesn't translate into always being nice to everyone--it is more a sense of there being some effort put into what is said and how it is said.
fratboy humor requires neither care nor thought.
there is nothing interesting in "blow me" or "why dont you just fuck off" or "that was fucking lame."

the results are like making fart noises with your hands.
i found that really hilarious when i was 14. now i dont.

but this is a problematic area because while i believe the above to be true, it is an aesthetic position. it refers to what i happen to find funny. i am not sure whether it is possible to go any further with this: except that within fratboy "humor" there are lots of juvenile, reactionary attitudes...a kind of narcissism lay behind the assumption that you can say just anything without giving it any particular thought, that whatever pops into your head is funny because it pops into your head.

i dont understand the interest in activating your inner fuckwit and taking it out to play.

i think that being funny in a written format requires some work.
anything worth doing requires work, and to prompt that work there has to be some sense of responsibility--this can be quite narrowly understood as applying to style (it doesnt matter so much how it deploys so long as it does)--and here the strange design of the anarchy forum converges with the low quality of much of the posting there.

what is also clear is that some of the folk whoa re active in anarchy seem to find its design to be liberating. maybe they can make something interesting out of it. for myself, though, i am not going to participate there until it morphs into something else. what is happening now is tedious and alienating.

Ah such beauty the 2 ladies above me (I'm sure someone will say i'm kissing ass..... why not I'm good at it :p besides they are very lovely ladies so it's the truth.)

(It was meant for NG and MM because when I started they were the 2 above me....... I'll add Sultana... would be a pleasure to anyway.... Halx and RB, while I am sure are handsome specimens.... I just can't see myself calling lovely.)

I truly understand what you are saying.

I just am too naive and optimistic to give up. I do my thing, spread the gospel of Monty Python, try to get someone to smile and ignore what I don't wish to read.

If someone attacks me, if a mob attacks me for what I said in a post.... aw well. It's not going to be much of a fight because I'll keep being true to myself. It's all I can do in life and when you accept that, you can put behind you the negativity of others. (Except F*'n politics.... it still makes me struggle within.)

I dont think I came into it with a hypothesis, goal, or anything really, but that's not the point. It was an idea.. simply that. One that could have gone either way. If you told me outright how you thought it would have gone and that it wasn't worth it, I would have replied that theory is nothing more than realistic fiction. Simply put: it's there. Now learn from it.

This isn't a plan to get people going. This isn't a scheme to get more traffic. This isn't a device to get rid of people. It's simply an idea put into motion.

Some were true emotions. Behind what is seen has been a constant disdain-by going elsewhere and using the guise of fun with anarchy, that disdain was used for 'entertainment'. But, like Pan pointed out, one bitter person with a couple of friends manipulated things to their way. No longer was there any 'entertainment', it was blatant mob 'kill the monster' mentality. In less than 48 hours, two of the haters became mods...mission accomplished.
Now it's on to another victim and, as Pan also said, it will continue until all that's left are the original bitter ones. Anyone who tries to sway things away from the mudslinging get mud thrown at them. It's a playground run by the bullies.

To echo SC's earlier post: Halx, with all due respect, I don't think you thought enough about the entire process before setting it in motion. roachboy, with all his analysis, is right on target... and I think many of us agree with him.

I do find it marginally interesting that, in relation to the "fratboy" references, this whole thing does have some gender correlations. Note the gender of those who are defending C:A most vehemently, and those who are criticizing it most harshly. Honestly wondering about why this is the pattern... any thoughts?

I would also like to know if our donor funds are/will be supporting this new forum in any way.

roachboy airs my views with utter conciseness...and with so much more style and better grammar.

I think he's right, a lot of it must come simply down to style and/or taste. When I think of an anarchy forum I think of a place where, in the terms of actual discussion, anything goes but at the same time the participants have an actual interest in discussion. I guess coming from this environment, I was shocked at how quickly the talk at CA turned from a sort of casual banter between a few people to a mean-spirited tag team operation with participants doing everything they could to stifle anything but their own agenda - mindless "fun." They may get a lot of gratification or whatever out of it, but it's just not my bag.

And looking back, it might have been a good idea to encourage all of us to take on new usernames at CA.

Don't you people even see what's going on?

You think you are losing respect for someone, You didnt even know that person!! You only knew the censored "Ohh I better not post what I think coz the TFP super elite known ones will strike me down"

You can't respect someone who is a fake, we here, we are all fakes, we censor ourselves.

You want to truly respect someone? Go to that forum and see how they act, you can respect someone who in a consequence free enviroment and still upholds the morals YOU think are good.

Because basically respect is only that, seeing moral choices that YOU also carry. That hardly means they are worth respect, it just means you agree with their morals.



If you guys are going to let that forum break apart this one, the problem is with you, not those forums.

speak for yourself.....I as much myself here as I am in real life....and the people that have met me will gladly testify to that, tfp and its rules in no way dilutes me or my personality, if I disagree with someone here, I state the why's and wherefores....it IS possible to do that without getting nasty about it...its the way I lived my life WAY before TFP was ever even a thought.

^ That's baloney. Weren't you bitching about the TFP being too censored not too long ago?

Bloody fucking hell. Here it comes.

You speak for yourself and others like you; fine for that. DO NOT speak for me, goddammit. I POST WHAT I THINK. I don't give a flying fuck about the "TFP super elite" because I don't post to piss them off, or anyone off. I post my opinion, whatever it may be, no matter how inflammatory or boring its content. If they want to censor me for that, fine... but guess what? I have never been censored or penalized here, and it's not because I'm being fake.

I don't need to "go to another forum" to respect someone in a consequence-free environment. My respect comes from seeing people in as many *different* environments as possible... and if they are inconsistent between environments (not in terms of "social expectations," e.g. wedding vs. funeral, but actual PERSONALITY and integrity), yes, they sure as hell lose my respect.

There is a quote somewhere that "Your character is revealed by what you will do when you think you will never get caught." That is the principle I operate on, in terms of evaluating my respect for others... online or IRL. Whether or not I get "caught" or not, THIS IS WHO I AM. Ask anyone who's met me IRL from TFP, and I am quite sure they will tell you that I'm not a whole lot different in either setting.

Feel free to disrespect me in this forum or any other, or in real life. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

EDIT: And by the way, if you want to bring up the fact that I started threads about the TFP not being kinky enough, etc, go ahead. I stand behind those threads, because what I was trying to do was help change the TFP, not go running somewhere else to hide and express my "true thoughts." As a result of that thread and others, I've been much more comfortable discussing kink and other things here, and I'm happier with the TFP as a result. If I want a change in the community, I do it HERE, not somewhere else.

I think if you go back and read my "beefs" you will see it was about the fact that MODERATORS got away with things that are expressly against the "rules" here.

That is called calling bullshit not complaining about "censorship"

And check out how those morals played out.
I respect most people without having to ever meet them or know their 'morals'. I am sure there are many who might not agree with mine or Shani's or yours, but you have respect, correct? How would going over there gain respect for them now? Bullying, insulting, mudslinging, dragging others into one's petty, shallow issues are not things I would consider worthy of respect.
I am, in real life, the way I am here, maybe a tad more goofy IRL and that's it. Why would I go through the effort of making someone up? That's just stupid.
The people that were doing so much slamming, I had respect for. A couple of them I actually liked based on what I saw here. Look where it got me.
Everyone, especially when they are relatively unknown, deserves respect until the unknown becomes known. Not everyone is going to be liked-that's a given.
I don't think that the other forum will break this one; I do think that, unless they're incredibly egotistic and oblivious, it will be hard for those who do/did the most damage to come back here and have whatever respect they'd gathered through TFP remain the same. The damage has been done.

Read this: http://www.prisonexp.org/, or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...01783583080634

I have nothing to add at this time.

Carno...I would like to apologize.....what you said was partially correct, I went back and reread that thread and you're right in a way.....I did complain about the "words" I couldnt use here and feeling restricted in vocabulary.

that DOESNT mean that my personality/behavior here is any less true though, it just means I choose my words a little more carefully than I would if you and I were sitting around having a chat over dinner or something.

I hope that makes sense

No need to apologize. I understand what you mean.

That's been going through my head for a long time now actually...a few months at least.

If I have lost respect from people because I don't like another person or have acted in an 'inappropriate' way, so be it. Especially if it's from people who are only internet entities. I never came here to gain, maintain, or lose respect anyway.

Coming to TFP or any forum has always been a release with some interesting tidbits and discussion point. It's a habit I've gotten into that has lasted for over 8 years now beginning with Excite! Chat back in the day. I don't really care what people who aren't a part of my life think. I have my real-life friends and they are the people that I truly care about and the only people I would let judge me and actually give a shit about what they think.

To quote my ex-fiance 'you may think my friends are stupid and stuff, but they're fun and they support me. If they are the judge of my character and you have a problem with that, then maybe I don't want to be with you anymore either.' This was in one of the many letters after our break-up almost 7 years ago and it's always stuck with me. I missed his 'stupid' friends after we split up. They were so much fun and a breath of fresh air after spending my days with college students trying to score big with professors and being serious all the time.

No donor funds were harmed in the making of this forum.

I don't get the concept of thinking "enough" about the process. I mean, it's an idea. That's all it is. That's as much thinking that needs to go on. The reason why I made it was because I didn't know what would happen and I wanted to see. I'm seeing SOMETHING. It's interesting.

I made a thread in Philosophy a while back about a similar idea and I got a whole range of suggestions. The actual execution has changed and it's an interesting system.

What is bad about the forum's presence?
1) You don't have to even view it if you don't want to. (let's get that one out of the way.)
2) It is not affiliated with the TFP by any declaration. It's MY site.
3) The comments on it about the TFP are no different than if the users had come from some other SINGLE site. More diversity is in the works.
4) I think I know at least one forum on the internet that was created entirely out of spite for the TFP... this isn't it.
5) The site is not even 3 days old. If an engine sounded as bad running as it does turning over, then we have a problem... but it's not even running yet!

In other words, the experiment has yet to begun. However, the gallery of comments is starting to sound like a bunch of unimpressed art critics and over-protective soccer moms. Yeah, you have every right to denounce the work, but don't judge the canvas before it's got any ink on it.

I've been having fun, watching people go nuts over the words of a few, and the way people act when the rules are removed- but then, social psychology is of great interest to me.

Losing respect for someone because of how they act in a consequence-free environment, when you know them from a place where there are rules of decorum, is a little ridiculous and judgmental. How a person chooses to spend their "play time" is not really for you to judge when you're back working under the rules, unless they spend their time doing things that are truly outside ethical bounds. The actions people are complaining about are not unethical or immoral, they just don't like them. It also doesn't mean you "didn't know them" because this particular facet of their personality hadn't been seen. You also don't know how they do a lot of other things, but that never bothered you until you were faced with what you believe is a contradictory set of personality traits.

Like has been said, no one just suddenly becomes mean. If you see a side of a person you've never seen before under different conditions than you normally see that person, that's just called "life". You can't impose character judgments on a person and then have disdain for them when you realize your judgment was based on your observation of them in one social setting.

This is like going out to drink with your boss. I know that for myself, my professional persona is way different than my normal everyday self- because it needs to be, it must be. I don't understand the thought process of then calling a person "untrue" because another facet of their personality shines under another type of social situation.

How many of your real-life friends started out as 'only internet entities'?
Anyone that goes anywhere, whether internet or in real life, expects respect. Saying you don't go someplace expecting respect is one of two things-a lie or a sense of unworthiness. No one goes someplace real or otherwise to be cut to pieces. Weren't you pretty miserable in a place where lack of respect was commonplace?
We all have friends that support us and we love and respect them for it. It's the strangers that choose to support us that really earn respect and admiration.

I'm glad you noted this. The people do find it liberating. Taking from the wikipedia article Daniel posted, you'll notice how the experiment started off with an ad in the paper. 70 responses, out of how many who actually read the ad? Really, you don't have to participate, but there does need to be some people to form the beginning core.

Here's how I envision this forum to go:

-Users get on the forum and start posting. They fill the board up with stuff excitedly. None of it is any more quality than the idle thoughts that come to us during the day. Much of it is quite contrived and dumb. We've seen this part. I think it's less "frat boy" and more "enthusiasm." You talked about lack of structure and predictability, but I would argue that the open space for a forum topic is rife with invitation to just simply OPEN a topic. "Who cares what it's about, we just need to fill this space up!"

That's my take on that part.

-The next step is users settle down. After the nest is built, users have to nestle in and start to decorate it. Nobody moves into a new home without arranging their furniture and hanging pictures. This is when the content starts to take shape. Those who feel a responsibility to the forum will feel the need to clean up the trash and promote better posts.

The initial excitement will die down and the trouble posters will see that they've made a mess. A few people will leave, but some will stay and try to actually make it work. This is a critical time for the forum because if there isn't enough people left, then it'll just die.

-The light clicks on. People start participating in a more civil and respectable manner, but shit will still erupt... thats just the nature of the internet. In fact, I came across a rather large (maybe20 times the size of TFP) general topic message board today and they actually framed their flame posts in their "Best of" section. At this point, the administrators start to pop up (Admin is given based on general population sample.. if there aren't enough people participating, there is no need for an admin.)

-As time goes on, things get smoother and smoother. There's always the possibility of abortion-by-administration, but if people give rep points to the right people. It could work out.





Or it could die a horrible death in its first 2 weeks.

There are no "innocent victims" in anything that went on over there.

And encouraging the trade of spiteful insults is 'enthusiasm', how
?
Filling it up with hate is not a good thing.
It could work out but its beginnings are horrid. I love you, Hal and I wanted to help you out as always. Even in Anarchy, instinctiveness in most includes self-censuring at some point. Not everyone is going to run like a wild animal, wreaking havoc, even if the proclivity to do so strikes for a second.
Some don't have it in them. Hopefully, as you wish, things will calm down and it will filter itself. But you've got some mighty fine people here who want nothing to do with it now.

Interesting at least. I've yet to look at the other site other than a quick clickthrough to see what the fuss is about. The way bowels have got in an uproar is something.

Sticks and stones people... Sticks and stones.

:thumbsup:
Sorry for taking stuff out ngdawg, but it was too much to respond to all at once! These are beautiful sentences & thank you very much!

I've been trying to decide how I want to respond to everything that's been said here and to address just why I've been acting like what many of you perceive to be an asshole in Anarchy. I decided the best thing to do would be to just copy and paste the reply I gave aberkok when he asked why it's so important to be free to give personal insults. Here is my reply:

And while we all rally around particular people, I just want to reiterate spec's comment: there are no innocent victims in what went on over there. We may choose to pick sides, and that's fine, but don't for a second think that the person you may choose to support is an innocent victim.

It would behoove you to read this entire thread(again) then. No one has. And the person (let's not be so transparently formal, it's me) has admitted her participation and duly apologized for it. Your continued disdain for me is duly noted, but there is a more appropriate forum in which to express it.

[QUOTE=Halx]Is this how the TFP started? Through the same process?




I predict a slower more painful death.

For the record, I feel that the life and death of C:A will definitely impact TFP. I echo Charlatan's earlier sentiment about the detrimental effects of CA on TFP.

That was an added bonus of this. I came here solely to read some posts and type some responses. The fact that some friendships came out of it is great, but not expected. I have many friends that aren't from the internet too. Anytime you are anywhere long enough, bonds are bound to form...love or hate or indifference.

Respect is a feeling that someone approves or disapproves. There are places where I go that I don't care if I'm respected or not. In fact I'm tired of even talking about respect. Because honestly, I'm not crying myself to sleep because people that don't know me has lost respect because they didn't know me.
But that was at the workplace where repsect is expected. Not on a message board where it really doesn't matter at the end of the day.
I differ with you on this point. Strangers aren't going to bring me soup when I'm sick. Strangers aren't going to offer money when I'm broke. Strangers aren't going to let me cry on their shoulder when I have a family problem. Strangers aren't going to answer the phone if I have to call at 3am to talk. If I see a stranger doing something nice, I get a passing 'that's cool of them' and then it's dismissed, not remembered. I'm not out to win over the world and make everyone happy. That's impossible.

If I have one regret it's the fact that I got so into this forum. As others are seeing 'true colors' of various members, I'm seeing the true colors of this forum a lot clearer than before. At one point, I really did enjoy this board and thought it was a wonderful place where everyone contributed and did their thing. I felt a community bond and while there have always been people I don't agree with, it was easy to overlook it. Lately though, it seems there is more judging going on than usual. Maybe it's because some people are feeling constrained by the 'let's rally around everyone and not hurt any feelings' sentiment.

I know that some people say that they are the same everywhere and that they would never act any different. Ok, you know I might have thought the same thing about myself. But I'm not 2-D. I'm not serious all the time. I'm not sweet all the time. I do have feelings and there are people that I don't like. It's who I am. I did not 'invent' a new personality for anarchy. I am not fake and I've never pretended to be anything I'm not. However, that is a social experiment over there and I, for one, have learned some things about myself too. I've learned that even after all these years of working on not being a pleaser, I still am to an extent. If I have any regrets, it's the fact that I have been hanging on to the pleaser-side of my personality here. I should have stated things as I saw them and not worried so much if someone would be upset or pissed. I didn't not say those things to maintain or gain respect though, I did it because I was going along with the majority here and didn't want to deal with the shitstorm that would have hit me if I stated my opinions on different things I've witnessed in this forum.

This social experiment has been liberating for me. I'm not talking about the freedom to name-call or belittle people, but the freedom to speak my opinions. I am not denying that through this mini-journey I dropped some names and hit below the belt, but not any more than others over there because as mentioned many times there are no innocents. However, even if it's ugly, I'd rather be honest than to pretend I'm so 2-D that I have no negative personality traits or opinions of others.

Yea, me too...I actually liked the very people who turned on me in the name of fun...that'll teach me.

I think my earlier response sums everything up.

I don't know about that. Way back on the first page of this thread, I was interested. I went over there and tried to register, only to find that "ratbastid" was taken. I "hrmph"ed about that and haven't been back. Anything "ratbastid" has posted there wasn't me. And I haven't been there to see whether that user has posted anything or not.

I know the formal reputation system is self-contained over there. But can people's opinions and impressions from that site propagate back to TFP? Because I'm feeling somewhat the victim of an identity theft that happened before I set foot on that site.

On a much more mundane concern of mine - I saw in one of the threads that an administrator at the time had used his/her privileges to check on a user to find out if they had returned under a different username. Apparently they did so by looking at the user's email address.

This worries me. Assuming the premise that anyone could gain administrator access, some stalker could use this to locate my email address / IP address. My email address happens to contain my full name (and my IP address could be used to trace my location), so in theory they could find out where I live etc. I have suffered from problems with stalkers in real life and I really don't need some internet psycho tracking me down especially with some of the kink I've posted here on TFP.

I have no problem with the administrators of this forum having access to that data, but doesn't the impact change considerably on CA where anyone can be admin?

I did a search, and nobody has posted anything under "ratbastid."

Okay... I amend my statement. There is one innocent victim in all of this and his name is ratbastid. We need to fix this. Will the real ratbastid please stand up?

EDIT: Took me awhile to write this, so I missed the last few posts... apologies for overlooking those comments.

Yeah, I regret that too. I wish I had known how you really felt a long time ago. (I'm being serious; please do not read a sarcastic tone into that comment.)

And JJ, I can only speak for myself, but I honestly don't think anyone is "rallying around" anyone here. I know I've said my piece(s) about C:A, but I don't think I've sought or gained "allies" out of the whole thing, nor have I leapt to anyone's defense. I've no doubt gained some enemies... but hey, I pick up a few of those every time I post in TFP, woo-hoo (I actually miss one of them: Ustwo, where are you?).

Spectre, has anyone suggested that there were innocent victims? If so, please correct me. In my mind, everyone involved smelled like shit. Feel free to toss me in that pile of mud too, just for fun. I'm up for the wrestling, as long as it's all above-board, here on TFP. But I will not patronize that site.

My intention was basically to assess what was going on in the new forum, and to clearly state why I thought it was a bad idea. An idea, yes. Creative, yes. And it had tremendous potential. But it was poorly thought-out and poorly executed. I sincerely hope it grows into something better, for Hal's sake... but I'm not going to put my energy into "forum-building," other than by giving my honest criticism here.

I'm still puzzled about the poor thought and execution. I don't understand how this concept could have gone any other way and still be.. it.

There is nothing you or anyone else watching did or have done that would cause me to throw you in the mud.

Basically, for me, I'm as level headed and nice in real life as I come off here and it takes a hell of a lot to upset me in any way. That said, I do have my limits of what I'm willing to tolerate from people, just like anyone else does. Push those buttons for a long enough period, and it will get a reaction from me. For me, people can say whatever they want about me and I'll just shrug it off. Now, tearing into someone who's been very cool to me, especially when it isn't deserved will set me off. I've let it slide in the interest of decorum here. There, I had that button pushed again for the last time I was willing to put up with it, and had nothing and no reason to hold back. People may think less of me for it, and fine, if that's how you feel. I'm no different, I just finally had enough of seeing a friend treated poorly followed by a statement looking for pity from the attacker.

I'm not claiming to be innocent in any way, and I don't deserve any sympathy, and neither does anyone else involved. I'm human, and saw unnecessary bashing, so I stepped in.

All of this said, I hope this is the last of the bleeding over to this forum. When I posted over there, I did so as a user of the site, and my status here had no bearing on me over there. I was as I am here, only I defended someone in the way I was allowed over there.

Who implied there were? I took total responsibility for my actions yet see no one else doing the same.
When I'm wrong, silly me, I say I'm wrong. I have fully acknowledged that and apologized openly for it.
I'm not going to keep going over the same pothole.

I think there's an option where your email can be hidden or you can check off that you don't wish to receive any. Worst case scenario, you set up a hotmail or gmail account strictly for the BS stuff.
My email addresses used were my regular ones. Since the namechange was temporary and wasn't a major concern regarding identity, the dual names were found because the only difference in the two was the ending digit (108 and 602 with the same name)
Had I wanted to be completely anonymous(and I've done this for other forums), I've set up a dummy email with a fake real name. It's also good for all the junkmail and spam that results sometimes from registering on sites(some sell that info).
The other consideration is that most people if not all would not abuse the temporary power they've acquired. But that's not a given and you take your chances no matter what you do.

This struck me. I have read the posts made since I went to work and this stuck out the most because of the sheer hypocracy of the statement.

Basically, RB goes on this long holier than thou rant.... (I am paraphrasing the real quote is above....) and says, "but when it is successful and the all the bugs have been worked out.... I'll be there and participate."

I had a great laugh from that. The self righteous, elitist, superior, attitude is priceless, but then to add that..... you are a prince.

Basically, you talk about how juvenile, immature, uneducated, uncooth everyone is over there..... but then you top it off with.... "once successful, I'll be there and enjoy the success..... but I'm too good to go over, set an example, work and try to make it something..." Bravo..... it cements my view that your condescension and egotism are your biggest and greatest assets... because just when I think you can't top yourself, you prove me wrong....

Bravo.

Correct me if I am wrong RB, please enlighten me... even though you pride yourself on your words and how well you convey what you want.....

I'm a little late coming back to this..

I was not trying to put words into anyones mouth with my post, but it's totally true every thing I posted there.

Ever hear that dirty little joke, and you wanted to post it, ahh but sorry its about michael jackson....

Ever have someone come to these forums and not blatantly come out and be a twat, but they hang on your nuts and disagree with everything you or someone else says? You can't call them on it.

Every person here censors themselves, you can say you don't but you do in some way or another.

I'm not implying thats a bad thing for HERE, this site would most definatly not work without that type of thing, I was just saying that's how it is here, and thats not how it is there.



I'm not sure why a couple of you had to flip out on me for saying that, I can't imagine how its even argueable.



Furthermore, I wasn't telling anyone to go to anotehr forum for anything, I was explaining how censorship effects how people respect each other. You can respect someone on these forums, but if that's all you know of them, You don't really respect them, You simply respect the censored 'them' which 99 out of 100 times... isn't going to be the real them.

Maybe this is all growing pains. Perhaps given time, something can evolve, or it could die. Hence, experiment.

But the deliberations in this thread are very good. If you actually step back for a second and see what is happening here. People are talking, discussing, presenting - good or bad but at the very least, giving their honest (emotional) opinions on the matter. It's almost, group therapy-ish. It's almost another, unintended experiment.

It really is watching something happening live. And we're all a part of it in some way or another.

It's almost primordial.

Thus, it seems logical it would be an ugly, chaotic, unseemly process that could possibly produce fantastic results.

I don't know, but I suppose we could just throw caution to the wind and dive back in and give it another go.

Sooner or later, the dust will have to settle. Who really know what we will have created.

I'm strangely curious (but am still tentative. Maybe it's time to get my toes wet).

Some suggestions:

1. Reset - log back in under a different name and start over
2. Try starting new threads
3. Attempt to create order out of chaos

Just my opinions and thoughts here, nothing else.

Thanks for listening.

Good suggestions.

1 Reset : Good point, though you'll still be annoyed by the same people. You can ignore them this time around if you want, or battle them again!

2 STart new threads : always need more threads, it's not like you can make a thread and it'll suck, coz..... who gives a shit right?

3 Create Order from Chaos : Personally I wouldn't bother, because it's going to either go this way or that way, the more you try to create order, the more you're feeding the people who are going for the true "Anarchy" system.

I didn't read his post that way at all. And, in fact, he's saying nothing different than most of us ladies whom you've been so conciliatory to. Tell me this, what are you "directing" by doing whatever it is you're doing over there? How are you making it better? And what interest is someone supposed to have in forcing an internet forum into being "something else" just so they can carry on a discussion there when we have a place to do so right here? Like me, I think roachboy is saying I'll go where the real conversations are - and for now, that's here. If it's there later as well, then I will go there, too. But it is not incumbent on me or roachboy or anyone else to "make" CA into a place that fits our ideal.

I think you're grinding an axe in the living room when you ought to be grinding it in the barn (ie, the politics forum).

I agree. The saying like, it gets the darkest before the dawn. TFP boasts about evolution. It has become stagnant for awhile now am emergence of susburban housewives and people with large egos has aided in this lack of evolution. As others have mentioned, people are walking around holier than thou. The thought of C:A being'juvenile, but once it becomes something more intelligent, then I'm all for it' doesn't fly. You want the prize, but you don't want to put any work into it. Have you heard of the story about the hen making the pizza?

I don't agree with Jorgelito in the open invitation. Not that people aren't welcome, but honestly, the people that are 'too good' for a place that is in its development and 'too good' to be honest with themselves this site isn't for. It's not for everyone and that's fine. Nobody is forcing anybody join, to surf the site annonymously, or even give a shit about it.

If you don't like it, stop talking about it and get over it. If you decide that you want to take part in not only a forum experiment, but also a chance to possibly evolve, come on over. But don't expect people to censor themselves. There are 'some' serious things over there, but most of all it's a playground. As hal mentioned, we're building it, then we'll decorate it, and then it will be clean enough for other people to visit. But now it's available for you to be a part of from the beginning and you are turning it down. Just stop moaning and judging and either join or leave it alone and stop obsessing over it.

#1 whats the point? It does nothing for me to "be someone different" If I cant be myself I really have no interest.

#2 Daoust and I spent many threads doing that only only to get told by
Shesus (and having rep taken away) that "I didn't get the right memo" and was starting crap threads (which I might comment that a lot of the ones started since I left that first nite are just as stupid and meaningless and she sarcastically started a 'serious' thread there....wow) AND I got crapped on for saying the word "fuck" as in "lighten the fuck up" and now there are tons of STFU comments all over the place. Not to mention the insults that were thrown around to people that didn't say anything bad to anyone. No innocent victims my ass. As far as I'm concerned D and I took the time to try to help out Halx and have a good time WITHOUT personal attacks on anyone and chaos took over. (thats SOOO much JJ for taking the time to respond to my PM....not) and you've got "mods" banning people this morning just because "they don't like them" yeah, thats a real impressive use of "power"

As for hiding your email....you can't do that from an admin, checking the preference to hide your email addy only does it from the general public, not from anyone in "charge" so at any given time whoever has got power has access to IP's/Emails


As for Shesus statement on what strangers do or don't do I have to argue, I can't tell you the number of times the "strangers" of TFP had done things for me, without me even asking, and totally out of the blue and those of you involved in the wedding events, and surgery events and Dave being gone events know well what I'm talking about.

I'm agreeing that we disagree. It's impossible to argue with people who will not even lean one way or another. I understand that fact that it's not for everyone. I understand that people who don't know people are upset that they didn't know people.

I can't explain to you that, at least for me, a personality was not created. I really don't care and it's a waste of my time having a 'discussion' here about this. If this is the serious, open-minded places...I don't buy it.

Maybe, listen instead of taking offense. Maybe see some humor instead of getting pissed and defensive. Laugh a little, if it's not this find something that does because life is too short. I'm done with talking until this becomes a discussion instead of a confrontation. I can't make my points any clearer and I see your point, but it's not the only one or the 'right' one. There are different people in the world...accept that.

Well, for one thing, I never mentioned poor thought and donor funds to suggest that it should be a certain way; my opinion is that it should never have been... at all. In the few years I've been here, I've seen multiple pleas for the members of this forum to step up and either (a) donate money to keep it running and/or ad-free or (b) link the site on our own personal blogs and sites to increase traffic. In this last couple of years I've been around, I even saw this effort escalate from a thread to an announcement that I had to confirm I had read by clicking a little button before I was able to access the site. I read the announcement, I clicked, and the couple of times I've had the money in my limited budget, I donated some of my dough.

Now you have created a site that I think is a phenomenally bad idea. It has already distracted me and a number of other members from our regular participation here, and I know that for me personally, it has soured my view of this forum and its creator more than it has done anything to elicit any opinion about the other forum's content. I would have left and not looked back the day this was created if it weren't for the fact that I still value the journals around here, and I would miss the people I like to keep up with. But here I am again, just sort of wondering how everybody will react to the hypocrisy later, when once again an authority figure over here decides that it's time to ask everyone to plug TFP so that we can get more traffic. Sure, no donor funds are being used for that other project, but that was never my concern. I think the traffic is a far more important issue here if we're talking evolution through social interactions. This just reminds me of how the makers of the movie Titanic thought there wasn't enough drama in the real story and had to throw in a torrid romance. Way to pander to the lowest common denominator, I guess.

I don't know how many more times I can say this. Maybe I even sound demanding. Maybe I am demanding something! I'm not sure what I'm after anymore. I don't think you're going to kill the forum just because I think it's a bad idea because it hurts the TFP. You're going to keep having your creative experiments no matter what anybody on the TFP says. I guess I'm just kind of sitting here thinking about when I thought TFP was worth donating to and wishing that I had my 30 beans back.

Supple Cow, I'm inclined to agree with you. The more I look at C.A. and aim to post something, I just feel like I'm posting in TF Nonsense. What's the difference at the end of the day? Once (if) discussions rise above that level, I see no reason why that traffic couldn't have existed here.

How is getting vile 'putting work into something? Once concerns over there were posted about it possibly becoming a 'popularity contest' and words to that effect, the feathers started to fly-people being accused of 'jealousy', of being petty, etc. and when called on those insinuations, instead of having an open mind and think maybe those accusations were off the mark, it got vile. I don't see that as 'work'. I don't even see it as discussion.
It's been made abundantly clear who is 'welcome'. But, here's the thing...it's not a 'club'. As for the statement about being 'too good', those are your words-no one else's and speak volumes.
Being blatantly insulting and mean is not evolution. Let me ask you this-all my guilty posts have been deleted. I think enough of myself to not want to be seen in such a horrible light and I have more respect for myself than to allow it. Of course, many things were quoted, but at least the original complete contents are gone. Who else is willing to do that? Is that what you want new people to see about you and keep it going that way?
I'm pretty sure that anyone just coming in from the cold to it, seeing the diatribes would only stay if they too were that vile. Is that what it should become?

pan:

i understand that what anyone writes can be taken any number of ways, and that in a netforum tone is essentially a blank to be filled in. so you fill in what you want to find in the tone of the posts i put here. the only conclusion that i draw from that is that you obviously have a hair across your ass about roachboy....rather than do battle with your projections or mess about with the surface of barely controlled hysteria that you seem to confuse with an element of style, i'm going to just explain a couple things behind what i wrote earlier.


i am very interested in processes of self-regulation/direct democracy.
i have done a ton of research on the ways in which drect democracy has been thought about and argued for across the history of the left, from craft-based anarchism through revolutionary syndicalism to socialisme ou barbarie (a french revolutionary marxist group from after world war 2)....i think it an interesting and important conceptual and political question. for a while now, lots of folk that i know (one way or another) have argued that types of internet activity can function as models of self-management in 3-d life: people often point to how linux was developed or to other open-source softwares that have been collectively worked up: they point to various on-line communities. i am interested in these forms of collective work and at various points have checked them out and sometimes have worked up assessments based on my research work of their political potentials. the problem with the anarchy forum is not exclusive to that forum: you see the same kind of question coming up all the time in conversations with folk who see in forms of net activity a type of viable political model for thinking about 3-d life. and it is because i think such experiments important and potentially very interesting that i decided to say what i have said in this thread: the biggest advantage direct democracy could provide is a kind of direct control over the rules that shape how folk act and think, what they do and how they do it. but it seems that this is not always obvious to folk who launch these experiments, and that is fine--but i also think that it is equally fine to point that out. and pointing that out is not pissing on the project: it is simply indicating that there is another dimension of self-regulation that is important, that should be thought about. and that's it. that's all i meant.


so when i looked at the anarchy forum, my reaction came from this.

the second post was about linking the lack of an explicit process of self-regulation (and linking mod status to number of posts aint it) to the low quality of the posts. what linked them was the (apparent) lack of a sense of responsibility, and what enabled that lack of responsibility was the lack of the mechanisms above, and the pitch for the forum itself as a space of "no rules"---and you can see for yourself what happened.


so with that said, let's turn to turn to your post 168.















nada.
sorry.

In the spirit of evolution and challenge, I'm going to make an analogy to what I do and the spirit of Miles Davis. Miles was very much against editing out mistakes from recordings. If there's one lesson musicians have learned from Miles it's that when you improvise, it's all you and we can project ourselves even through our mistakes. I am proud to say I didn't make any edits on my album. In my journals, I've tried to keep entries about times in Hong Kong when I behaved in a way that wasn't very becoming. I look back on those sometimes and learn a thing or two. Makes me think twice about how I deal with other people.

I haven't decided for myself whether deleting your posts on C.A. is the right thing to do, ngdawg, and obviously it doesn't matter what I think. I don't necessarily think you should arrive so quickly at the conclusion you did. Maybe it's better to leave them up?

The truth is important even when we look back and don't like what we see. Perhaps leaving your posts up would have given important context to the ugliness that went on over there.

To be clear, and you are a friend so I think it's important to be clear, I am not challenging your specific action, but the idea of erasing past ugliness.

ng, you really need to get over yourself. You're pretending to take the high road, when in fact, all of the people who "attacked you" were people who you've attacked or been downright mean to for a while now. They just finally had a place where they could vent their frustration because they didn't want to do that here. I've been trying to keep this off of this forum, but since you insist upon playing the victim here, it's about time the truth of the matter came out. You pushed a lot of people to their break points, and when they finally reacted, you got offended. Word of advice, don't keep poking the beehive with a stick if you don't want to get stung.

I'm not even going to bother arguing this point with you any more since you're clearly hell-bent on convincing everyone that you're a completely innocent victim in all of this, even though you "claim responsibility." If you don't think you're innocent in all of this, why is it still an issue to you?

Those that know me know that I never react like this on the board, but even I have my limits of what I'm willing to tolerate from people. I've been trying very hard to not react to a lot of this, but it's turning into a drama fest and I left high school long ago.

Where all of this is going...

As a concept, Concept:Anarchy is interesting. If I had the time, or the inclination I imagine it might be fun to participate in the experiment. Sadly I do not have the time or the inclination.

And that's OK.

I don't plan on participating over there any more than I already have, which was minimal at best. I wish C:A all the best and hope that as a Forum it can ride out this rough period and become a success.

I remember when TFP was young, some four or five years ago. It too, even with its rules was a lot rougher and a lot coarser (filter the politics forum so you can see posts from the beginning and see what it used to be like). Perhaps, this board *has* become a bit stultified. Perhaps it needed a kick in the ass like this, I am not sure.

There have been complaints about the moderation here and there have been applause for the same. Some feel the mods are overbearing and stultifying (or worse that they self censor so to avoid breaking the rules) other see the rules as what maintains the sense of order that allows discussions to remain civil.

I have been trying to figure out why this all feels familiar and I think I finally figured it out. What I am seeing here feels exactly like the big TFP split where a good chunk of mods and members were banned. They were banned mostly for trying to use the TFP to populate one of the mod's own boards. Further, they were openly hostile to members of the forum and specifically Halx.

This feels the same only it has the blessing of Halx.

TFP survived that event because it was largely shoved under the rug (at least as far as the average member could tell). The board went on to get stronger.

Perhaps this *will* shake things up and bring about something new. Perhaps not.

When have I attacked anyone? Feel free to pm them all to me. That's an open invitation, by the way.
And you keep using this 'victim' word like it's what's the deal. I'm not a victim, I was a participant. Deciding to delete my participation in a slugfest that got me just as dirty as anyone is, well, my decision.
I'm not the one who has to get over oneself, but I am the one who has to live with the actions I take. And when I feel they're in error, I make reparations. Iif that seems like self-victimization to you, then so be it.
If someone, anyone wants to be seen in a different context, that is certainly their choice. And if anyone wants to develop themselves by using the lowest part of themselves, again, it's their choice.
Changing one's mind is not victimization. Making correction to an opinion or action is not victimization. Holding a personal standard is not victimization.
Everyone is very quick to say I'm this, he's that and then announce 'well, I don't know anyone or care to'...I see hypocracy in that.
I have held the vast majority here in a level of respect, if not actually liking them from what I had seen. And for most, I still do.
If it's not an issue to YOU, why are you responding? Because you're getting defensive and deflective and attempting to justify something that many people turned from in disgust?
No one's behavior was stellar, including mine. And I will not justify it. And I will not allow myself to be or 'play' victim, here, there or anywhere else.
If putting myself on a high horse because (Heavens!!) I have admitted that I was wrong, so be it. I happen to be of the opinion that wrongs should be corrected whenever possible. If you think you were in the right in anything you do, that becomes obvious as well and just might be more revealing than the path I choose.
Either way, I certainly have the right to conduct myself one way and you another. And I don't believe I ever asked you to like it.

Edited to add: How is it that you keep accusing me of 'playing victim' but insist on taking your negative opinions of me public and doing it in now two forums? And for someone who used to be a peacemaker, it's, to me, beneath you. Seems to me you want me to do what you think I should do. Sorry to disappoint.

Even though a great deal of them are contained in quotes, I did not like what was staring back in my posts. I got defensive and while many things were posted as I laughed while typing, that's not the whole me- part of the real me, maybe, but it's a small part and, like putting on make-up to both conceal and make things 'better', deleting them was what I felt I needed to do. I simply did not like what I became as the tone became nastier-a part of a mob.
I also did so thinking 'what would a stranger-noobie think of this?' Since the remarks can't be totally gone as they're in quotes, the uglier side is still there, but I had to do what I did for my own peace of mind.
And don't sell yourself short, Aberkok. What you think does matter.

Edit: The threads now require a password (made public if you read through). Since no one in them was in their best-dressed(yes, including me, the 'victim':rolleyes:) , at least it's a step forward.

The one thing that keeps coming to mind as I read this thread is... who cares? If you don't like the other forum, why bitch about it?

Do you think it should be shut down because you don't like what goes on over there? What exactly is it that you think should happen?

I think now, in changing my mind again...it should stand or fall on its own.

I'm trying to make it work, but I keep coming back to the moderation question. For those who have decided to leave, I know how you feel.

If you continue to respond, you feed the fire.

This is my last post on the subject.

Yes! She's gone, now we can say what we really think!

I think she's an adorable person and very insightful. And yes, it's what I really think.:thumbsup:

But you are trying and that is what matters. :thumbsup:

I wandered in over there, out of curiosity. What I saw was akin to a classroom full of children after the teacher steps out. Mob rule. Well, says I, this is what it was about...not? Anarchy.
I left, knowing that In all likelyhood I would not return, as it is not in my taste. For those that enjoy it...fine. For those that frequent it...great. Have fun. Knock yourselves out.
All I ask is that what happens in C:A...stays in C:A. (Although, I suspect, that's not possible) Sometimes, in order to heal, a wound must be opened, allowed to fester, dry out and then heal. I hope that is all that we have going on here.

Personally...I tend to agree with Miss supplecow. I think that this was a monumentaly bad idea. But, now it's there. And I feel that the 800lb gorilla is always going to be left in this room.

I admire the tenacity of anyone who would stick around anyplace that, in its youthful stage, is only either acidic or nonsensical with no rhyme or reason.
You, Pan, Tec etc., hopefully will be catalysts to steer chaos into quality.
But, as evidenced in this thread, chaos does not understand boundaries.
My respect for quite a few has diminished greatly and the disappointment I've been feeling in them is overwhelming-it is obvious they don't care and refuse to believe that they were actually liked and respected based on their personas here. By the same token, personally, my respect for others has grown as I observe them rise above the fracas that ensued. I have been having conversations with others that, believe it or not, like talking to me:p -their views are similar.
There's been a lot of mentioning of 'censorship' as it pertains to TFP, but why is being civil equated with censorship? Why is chaos and mudslinging and nastiness held in high esteem? I don't get what thrill people receive from it.
If it's to let off steam, there are better ways, I'm sure.
No one in real life presents only the worst of themselves in the hopes of being respected and this is no different; yet, it seems to be the expectations now.
We have lost a great deal of really fine people because of the actions of one or two just here. Is animosity and the lowest common denominator really worth losing more? Life's short and it's a day game. Going out of one's way to make others uncomfortable, defensive, disgusted is just a stupid way to behave. Those that get uncomfortable, defensive and disgusted are not going to stick around much and haven't. That's not diversity or evolution nor is it some place to enjoy.
I really hope that those who brought their personal issues here are satisfied with that choice. It could very well turn out that more than one of us has shot themselves in the foot.

Once the church group starts a roller derby team, church is never quite the same. :lol:

I just can't bring myself to sympathize with the negative attitudes regarding the idea. I might add, that in some way, this thread has infused many of you with a sense of passion for not only the TFP, but for the debate of decent governing principles. You may not like the rouse, but the TFP is merely a rock, floating in a galaxy of planets and stars - it's good to see some life here after all.

Would you believe that back about 4+ years ago, the TFP was in the top 2000 websites on the internet, by traffic? Do you know where it is right now? 126,477. We're at one of the lowest points of traffic in our history. There are many reasons for this, and I'm going to explain why this thread HELPS.

The first reason is obvious: stagnation. As great as the community is, its going nowhere. We have a slow trickle of users coming in from random searches on Google. That's all.

Second: Isolation. We have no incoming traffic except for search engine traffic. They're not searching for an internet forum, they're searching for a specific subject, and when they find it, they move on. Nobody links us from their blog. Nobody talks about us on other forums.

Third: Bland content. Yes, the TFP community is great, polite, intelligent and clever. But we have little to show for it. This is where C:A starts to help. This thread alone appeals, but it's going to take more. I look at other, more successful websites and they have a few things going on that I notice we have none of. Their users are just as tight, just as open, just as passionate. But they also produce content instead of just talking about news articles. When you're browsing on one site, and find a link to a forum, what does that link contain?

1) An interesting or amusing incredible anecdote that illicits laughter or disbelief.
2) A story of customer service or legal injustice with full documentation.
3) A comprehensive walkthrough or explanation on a particular subject that people are interested in.
4) A humorous list or compilation.
5) Discussions on unique events with diverse and well-thought responses.

This is the stuff that is passed along between websites. These are the passages through which users flow into a community. We have none. We are not worthy of users to just link.

Fourth: Rigidity. We're fighting against the grain on this one. We might think that our rules are what makes the TFP a great framework for a community, but we're also limiting our potential userbase. This is something I'm not willing to give up, which is all the more reason to work on the other things.


And while C:A is an abomination of an idea and is causing toxic conversation to spill into the TFP, it is not siphoning members away. And while some of my stakeholders disagree with its very presence, I must state the fifth reason why we are suffering.

Five: No outbound traffic. This might sound preposterous, but it's not. The most popular sites on the internet are the ones that lead you to other sites. Become a source of interesting content, both in-house and externally, and people will frequent you. From there, they will build a relationship and participate.

As I said, the TFP is just a rock, floating in a vast universe, alongside much more vast and dense bodies. We need to change a little.

I hope you'll read this and see my point. I don't expect you to agree with the C:A forum as an entity, but I hope you'll understand that it doesn't hurt. Yes, your friends may be arguing, but none of this was originated with the forum. Its good to air out some things.

Ditto:thumbsup:

Oh Bill, I like your sig. It speaks volumes here.

I think it's more than that. Anyone with $100 and a computer and a tutorial can start a website or forum and that is what's happening. I have a plethora of sites that I bookmarked...I go into only 3. No longer is it just something a person with your intelligence can achieve. Just quoting that 126,477 should tell you something. It's staying power and TFP has stayed when others have died. Numbers don't mean crap(unless you're at the bottom of the barrel and that's always temporary, as is being on top.) Racist sites, sites that cater to specific groups all have members; if you want to be huge, you could make this an all-hispanic site or an all-Indian site and be right up there with the others. I'll take the diversity, thank you. I'd rather be small and have integrity than be something akin to DeviantArt.
I do all the time. Tec has brought people here from other forums. /me bows in Mixedmedia's direction...;) I know other members here have come from member's suggestions-I did. (and no, not telling who!) How many of us have blogs? I use the journal for that. (I'd still go with the t-shirt idea tossed around a couple years back....)
I like bland. Look what happened here. Being a Pollyanna ain't always a bad thing. I'll take that over heartburn and tears any day. I frequent a forum that is cutthroat political and would send most of the political users here running in the opposite direction(some have, actually after sending them there!) It even has a basement for flaming. Who needs that all the time? Do it long enough and one starts becoming the ass one is portraying there everywhere else....no thanks. Opinion is one thing...flaming arguing is like expensive champagne...small sips is fine and makes the good last longer.
While it's not siphoning yet, it's really angering more than a few. And who you thought were friends or at least forum compadres are showing themselves to be otherwise. My hat is off to Pan and Willravel and Aberkok-they have the patience of a saint. Or they're just stonecold ;)
I do see your points, but at least for now, CA does hurt TFP. I'm old school-if there's a problem with one person or another, air it out by yourselves, resolve the differences and misunderstandings, not use a public forum and hide it under the title 'fun'. Even the most innocuous threads there bring out such venom!!
Since the last upheaval, people here not only starting coming back in, but policed themselves quite well, not because of rules but because they wanted civility.
The world is hectic, cruel, cold and couldn't care less about you or me. Why should a forum be the same way?

So let me get this straight. I do weeks of research on what makes a successful website, with the intention of applying at least a few of those lessons to the TFP, and you don't think any of it is necessary?

might it help you you did some kind of research on where "we" came from? I know I came from a recommendation from someone who was on a board that turned into a C:A type board...she made it for those of us that couldnt stand that crap and needed someplace "adult" because at that time my own forum was "closed" to anyone that wasnt known in real life

Sweetie...people make a website what it is....you can't research interaction once it's out there.
You've been at this for how long? 5-6 years? How many failed in that time, ya think?