What's Your Vote Worth?

[SecretMethod70]

I was listening to Marketplace the other day and heard a segment which gave me the idea for this thread.

Listen to the segment here (mp3, 1.59MB, 2:33).

Transcript:

Originally Posted by Marketplace

What'll it be -- voting booth or the ziti?   click to show 

TEXT OF COMMENTARY

KAI RYSSDAL: Accountants for presidential hopefuls from both parties have a busy weekend ahead of them -- Monday's the deadline for third-quarter campaign finance reports. We'll find out how much they've all collected, and who's been doing the giving.

Commentator Alex Sheshunoff has been curious about campaign finance. In particular, how much Americans think their votes are worth.

ALEX SHESHUNOFF: This election, the presidential candidates will spend close to $2 billion on their campaigns. But I won't see a dime of it. Most of it will go towards consultants and advertisers.

It's hard to imagine a less efficient market. It's about time we cut out the middlemen.

Underwhelmed after a recent presidential debate, I decided I'd give up my right to vote for not very much... say, a Walter Mondale collector plate. Curious how that compared to the rest of America, I commissioned a survey.

The Opinion Research Corporation bugged 1,006 people for me during dinner, and this is what we found out:

• 53 percent of Americans said their vote wasn't for sale, they wouldn't give it up for anything, not even a vaccine for cancer. Everyone else, however, had a price.

• 15 percent of America would give up their right to vote in exchange for free gas for a year.

• 10 percent would disenfranchise themselves to appear opposite Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie in a movie. As Patrick Henry said: "Give me liberty or give me Branjelina."

• And one-eighth would prefer a $50 gift certificate for the Olive Garden to ever voting again. That seemed high, until I thought of the sweet, sweet goodness of the five-cheese ziti compared to a couple of New York politicians.

There were also some interesting patterns:

• Men and those under 35 are the most likely to sell their vote for everything from $25,000 cash to flying first class.

• And the wealthier you are, the less likely you are to sell your vote. Which I guess makes sense... I've yet to meet a billionaire who's bewitched by a bottomless salad or a basket of bread sticks.

So it turns out the candidates are getting a good deal. They'll spend about $16.50 for every vote cast in the final election -- a lot less than the going rate.

Just shows, when it comes to the dysfunctional market of retail politics, it's the consumer who gets short-changed.

RYSSDAL: Alex Sheshunoff is a writer in Anchorage, Alaska.

So, the question I have for you is: "Would you sell your right to vote? If so, what would it cost?"

I'd like to say that I wouldn't sell it for anything, though I think there is some truth to the adage "everyone has a price." It would take quite a lot though. If I were offered $1 million after taxes, every year for the rest of my life...I would be very tempted. Or, to use an example from the segment, if giving up my right to vote would allow the creation of a vaccine for cancer, I'd probably go for that as well. There are many other ways I can be politically engaged without voting, and ultimately I believe this life is probably all I've got, so I've got to do what's best for me first and foremost. I was very surprised at just how little was required for many people to give up their vote though.

So how about you?

[Charlatan]

My vote is not for sale. I treasure it more than most things I have.

[mandy]

would you really want to sell your right to have a say though?

to be able to voice your opinions and concerns or just trash

[Menoman]

If this was a 'one time offer' for just me, not a blanket offer to millions of people.

Fuck ya I'd sell my vote. 1 vote means dick, and everyone knows it. 1 vote has never changed any election that I've ever voted in, nor probably any election I will ever vote in. "Every single vote counts" ? ... No sorry...

If it were offered to millions of people I'd prefer to keep my vote rather than become a slave to the 'owner' of all of those sold votes.

[mandy]

of course your vote counts.

all votes count...in any election...one vote could be the deciding factor, could make the difference between win and lose.

it's like my mother always told me "ten cents could buy a loaf of bread" and i never understood that.

however, as i grew older and started to think about it, ten cents could be the difference between you going hungry and having something in your tummy.

same concept with voting. it could make that difference.

[DaveOrion]

Yea, votes don't mean shit when the elections are rigged.

[Reese]

Aren't they buying your votes with empty promises of free health care and pulling troops out of Iraq?You see these promises in every election yet none of these things ever come to light. Hell why would they want to give you free gas for a year when they can just tell you they'll give it to ya and don't.

[Chiyachan]

I'll sell my election votes, that's not selling my opinions. I don't vote anyway, so it doesn't really matter eh?

[Cynthetiq]

People in other countries have been bought and paid for as little as a 20lb bag of rice.

I'd never sell my vote.

Not for voting a particular way, nor giving up my right to vote.

All you people that say one vote doesn't matter, it takes 100 pennies to make a dollar. If you don't think it matters, toss your change into a jar for a month and see that eventually you have a few dollars.

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Yea, votes don't mean shit when the elections are rigged.

Yeah because even your local representative elections are rigged.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Yea, votes don't mean shit when the elections are rigged.

Well, selling a vote would be rigging an election, but how many elections are truly 'rigged'?
No, I wouldn't sell my vote-that'd be like putting words in my mouth, making a statement I never made.
The Electoral College, though, seems to take care of it anyway.

[Lasereth]

Depends on if the offer is applied to me or if it's applied to everyone else.

If the offer is offered to only me, it would be the dumbest decision anyone has ever made since our solar system swirled into motion if I didn't take a lump sum of money for my vote.

I'd sell my vote for +100% scaled income. So if I make 1,000 now I will make 2,000. If I make 10,000 next year I make 20,000, etc.

Or I would take $500,000 lump sum.

Now if this was open to anyone who wanted in, I would be against it because all of the poor people would do it and then the richie people would win the elections. But if it was only offered to me, I can't help but say anyone that has a head would take the offer. 1 vote <I>does not matter</I> in a nation with 300,000,000 people, even if only a portion vote. There's no way it will ever matter either. No election will ever be on the verge of 1 vote either way.

[SecretMethod70]

heh, didn't even consider the idea that the offer is made to everyone. If it were not just me, no way I'd do it. Part of what makes selling so worth it is the relatively small impact of only one missing vote (yes, one vote counts, but statistically almost never) and the fact that there are still other people who can vote whose opinions I may or may not be able to sway through any number of means.

[Ustwo]

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:from bondage to spiritual faith;from spiritual faith to great courage;from courage to liberty;from liberty to abundance;from abundance to selfishness;from selfishness to complacency;from complacency to apathy;from apathy to dependency;from dependency back again to bondage. - Sir Alex Fraser Tytler


Votes are already being bought directly with welfare checks, food stamps, health care, affirmative action. Indirectly with tax cuts, public facilities in your district, military bases/federal jobs in district, and other 'pork'.

Its only a matter of time.

[ScottKuma]

I started to write, "¡No way, José!" but then realized that there certainly were circumstances where I would sell my vote....

It would just take a LOT, and would be an amount that would likely not be worth the purchase of my vote. (I'm talking a million dollars tax-free, guaranteed security for me and my family for the next 25 years, etc.)

[dc_dux]

Its a federal crime (and a crime in most states) to sell your vote in the US:

§ 597. Expenditures to influence voting

Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and

Whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...7----000-.html

Add a potential fine and two years time into your thought process....not that prosecution is likely.

[chancester]

Even though I choose not to vote (yeah I am one of those) I just don't know if I could give up that right. I think this raises a very good question, and this is one that I cannot answer. I also would consider giving up my right to vote for a big pay off, but what would come of me after that. I think that government can be good, but can also get very very bad. Giving up any right especially the right to vote is paving the way for disaster.

[MSD]

If it were just for this next presidential election, I would sell it in a heartbeat. The only reason I have power at home is that the power company has an exception to late payments for "temporary hardship," and that hardship isn't going anywhere soon. As for the election, I am so repulsed by the candidates from all sides that I am seriously considering the possibility that I may leave the voting booth without casting a vote for president unless the Libertarian party nominates Daniel Imperato or the Democrats nominate Mike Gravel.

If there were not law against it, my pledge not to vote could be bought for a mere $5000.

[DaveOrion]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Yeah because even your local representative elections are rigged.

Shake your head all you want, but as I recall at least a few recent presidential elections were rigged & its certainly much easier to rig the local ones. Not that it really matters, I usually end up voting for the lesser of 2 evils anyway. Most honest politicians will eventually succumb to the corruption of power and money, few can resist. Thats the nature of power, it tends to corrupt no matter what degree you're given.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Shake your head all you want, but as I recall at least a few recent presidential elections were rigged & its certainly much easier to rig the local ones. Not that it really matters, I usually end up voting for the lesser of 2 evils anyway. Most honest politicians will eventually succumb to the corruption of power and money, few can resist. Thats the nature of power, it tends to corrupt no matter what degree you're given.

And then they forgot how to rig them in 2006

Some day I'll figure out how people can go from the government being grossly incompetent to insidiously Machiavellian without missing stride.

The closest to a rigged election in modern times was 1960, when Old Mayor Daley, 'delivered' Illinois to Kennedy. Nixon was urged to do a Al Gore on it, but decided it was not in the best interest of the nation to drag the presidential race into such controversy.

Sort of ironic that the democrats most beloved president won due to a non-existent missile gap, and the Chicago democrats machine.

Knowing how the machine worked (and still works though without nearly the insane level of fraud as before, though I'll be happy to fill you in) I can't see any chance of this not being true.

But just because an election is close, doesn't mean its got to be rigged against your guy.

[Crack]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

*snip*
Knowing how the machine worked (and still works though without nearly the insane level of fraud as before, though I'll be happy to fill you in) I can't see any chance of this not being true.
*snip*

as a former employee of Diebold Voting Systems, this makes me chuckle...

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Crack

as a former employee of Diebold Voting Systems, this makes me chuckle...

Just to be clear you do know I'm talking about the 'democratic machine' politics of Chicago? It has nothing to do with voting machines.

Perhaps this is a term not used outside of Illinois, so not trying to sound patronizing.

[QuasiMondo]

$1 million isn't worth what it used to be. I'd have to get Dr. Evil on y'all and demand.....

.....One Hundred Million Dollars!!!!

[DaveOrion]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Knowing how the machine worked (and still works though without nearly the insane level of fraud as before, though I'll be happy to fill you in) I can't see any chance of this not being true.
But just because an election is close, doesn't mean its got to be rigged against your guy.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing you can ever fill me in on.

The 2004 US Elections:
The Mother of all Vote Frauds
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin
March 23, 2004—The 2004 election has already been rigged. The corporations and the military industrial complex have bought themselves a government and they aren’t going to let some silly little presidential election jeopardize their investment. [Ballotpaper.org]
April 7, 2004—Machines will produce 99.4 percent of the election results for the upcoming 2004 presidential election. With all the hoopla over voting machine "glitches," porous software, leaked memos, and the creepy corporations that sell and service these contraptions, and with all the controversy that surrounds campaign financing, voter registration, redistricting issues, and the general privatization of the election process, we are missing the boat on the biggest crisis facing our democracy. Americans aren't really voting. Machines are. Call it faking democracy. [Online Journal]

Alex Pelosi's new film "Diary of a Political Tourist" catches a tipsy Congressman Peter King making a comment at a White House function before the election had been finished that, "It's already over. The Election's over. We Won."
When Pelosi asks, "How do you know that?" King replies, "It's all over but the counting. And we'll take care of the counting."

November 1, 2004 - When would-be-voters were asked whether the nation was headed in the right direction, about 52-55% people have replied negatively. Under this scenario, the leadership change is all but assured. Mr. Bush and his campaign team may project an optimistic outlook as they spoke before the media tonight, but I feel that while Bush’s number is hovering around 47-48%, which is the same number for Kerry, it does not bode well for the Republican candidate.

You wouldn't steal George, would ya?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/steal_election.html
Incumbents never make surges from their last horse race number.

Examples:

1956 Eisenhower's final horserace projection 59.5%, his actual vote total 57.8%

1964: Johnson's final horse race projection 64%, his actual share of the vote 61.3%

In 1972 Nixon's final horse race projection tally 62%, his actual vote total 61.8%

In 1976 Ford's final horse race projection number 49%, his % share of the vote 48.1%.

In 1980, Carter's final horse projection numer 44%, his real % of the vote 41%.

In 1984 Reagan final horse race projection tally 59%, his real share of the popular vote 59.2%.

In 1996 Clinton's final horse race number 52%, his actual share of the vote 49.2%

The alleged miracle comeback of incumbent Harry Truman can not be included in this study because Gallup issued it's "final" result 2 weeks before the election.


On November 2, 2004 President Bush defied both public opinion and history to win the election
51 - 48.

How was this done? Simple...

Vote suppression/voter intimidation and deception. Shortages of voting locations and ballot forms. Foreign monitors barred from polls. Unmatched exit polls/actual results - actual results always skewed to Republicans. Masses of e-Voting "glitches". Computers lost votes. Presidential votes miscast on e-Voting machines throughout the US. More recorded votes than voters. Republicans gained 128.45% in Florida counties using optical scan voting machines while Democrats lost 21% - some districts showed gains of over 400% while one, Liberty County, gained over 700% for Republicans.Warren County officials locked down the county administration building on election night and blocked anyone from observing the vote count as the nation awaited Ohio's returns. Bush had 'incredible' vote tallies. 7% turnout reported in Cleveland precinct. In Cuyahoga County different towns had the exact same number of "extra" votes. And on, and on...

Full details:


Pre-November 2

Dirty tricks return to the sunshine state
Phony letters tell people they cannot vote
58,000 Absentee Ballots Missing in Florida
New Florida vote scandal feared
Gallup Poll Racially-Biased
Electronic vote machine too easily corrupted
Purposely Corrupted Diebold Voting Terminals
Paid Bush supporters cause uproar
1 Million Kerry Votes Already Stolen
November 2

Late Ruling Allows GOP to Challenge Ohio Voters
Foreign monitors 'barred' from US polls
Six news groups sue Ohio elections chief
Voting list snafu causes problems in Marion County
Bogus calls target area Democrats
GOP doing all it can to keep minorities from voting
Is there inner-city election suppression in Ohio?
E-Voting Problems Crop Up

November 3

Group tallies more than 1,100 e-voting glitches
Residents turned away at polls
E-Voting machines give Bush 5% advantage
Exit polls and ‘actual’ results don’t match
CNN changes Ohio exit poll page
Errors plague voting process in Ohio, Pa.
November 4

Kerry Won. Here are the Facts.
Global monitors find faults
Vote Fraud - Exit Polls Vs Actuals
FRAUD!! in Ghanna Ohio
"More votes than voters: Now THAT'S a mandate!"
N.C. Computer Loses More Than 4,500 Votes
Presidential Votes Miscast on e-Voting Machines

November 5

Some observations of the 2004 election
Something looks very wrong in Florida...
Maryland e-voting controversy in presidential race
Bush’s tally was supersized by a computer glitch
Should America Trust the Results of the Election?
Software flaw found in Florida vote machines
Election problems due to a software glitch
Warren's vote tally walled off
Group Finds Voting Irregularities in South
November 6

Evidence Mounts That Vote May Have Been Hacked
Massive Voter Suppression and Corruption in Ohio

November 8

Ohio Whitewash
November 9

Countinghouse Blues - Too many votes
Bush's 'Incredible' Vote Tallies
None Dare Call it Voter Suppression and Fraud

November 10

7% turnout in Cleveland precinct?
The Mystery of the Cuyahoga County vote totals
Computer glitch baffles county clerk
Judge Rejects Suit Over Absentee Ballots
Florida "E-Touch" - "Optical Scan" discrepancies
November 11

The sorting and discarding of Kerry votes begins
Elections board to probe missing voting forms
Glitch causes Franklin Co. recount
GOP Wants Exit Polls Abandoned


Sworn testimony of vote

Dr Stephen F. Freeman from the University of Pennsylvania calculated that the odds of just three of the major swing states, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania all swinging as far as they did against their respective exit polls were 250 million to 1.

Exit Polls and Voter Fraud:
A User-Friendly Explanation

IN mid-August [2003], Walden W. O'Dell, the chief executive of Diebold Inc., sat down at his computer to compose a letter inviting 100 wealthy and politically inclined friends to a Republican Party fund-raiser, to be held at his home in a suburb of Columbus, Ohio. ''I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year,'' wrote Mr. O'Dell, whose company is based in Canton, Ohio.
Here's how Ohio was delivered to Bush...

Votergate is an investigative documentary feature film uncovering the truth about new computer voting systems which allow a few powerful corporations to record votes in secret.

11/11/04: MSNBC looks at 2004 election fraud.

The Stolen Election Audio Collection:
Vote Fraud is Real- Wake Up America

The Myth of a Divided America

In the year 2004 America spilled into the streets, frustrated, furious. This video shows the real America ignored by the corporate controlled media. See what America really thinks when allowed to speak without censorship.


Kerry has clearly shown he is not willing to take a stand on this issue. And indeed you will find a great reluctance in the entire government to address the fraud because of their fear that if the present election is revealed to have been a fraud, the public will start to question whether previous elections were equally fraudulent, knowing that evidence to support such a conclusion is in abundance for those who look.
The American people are at risk of waking up and realizing that they did not in fact vote for the governments which have been in power over them for decades, and did not in fact vote to approve any of the disastrous fiscal and military policies the government has set, and that in fact the majority of Americans have never agreed with much of what has been going on. If the election is revealed to be a fraud, Americans will rightly conclude that they are under no obligation to obey the government any longer, to follow the government's dictates or to surrender their money and children to a bunch of unelected thugs.

Updates:

Gallup: Bush Approval Rating
Lowest Ever for 2nd-Term Prez at this Point
April 5, 2005

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1000866232

It's not uncommon to hear or read pundits referring to President George W. Bush as a "popular" leader or even a "very popular" one. Even some of his critics in the press refer to him this way. Perhaps they need to check the latest polls.

President Bush's approval rating has plunged to the lowest level of any president since World War II at this point in his second term, the Gallup Organization reported today.

"All other presidents who were re-elected to a second term had approval ratings well above 50% in the March following their re-election," Gallup reported.

Bush's current rating is 45%. The next lowest was Reagan with 56% in March 1985.

More bad signs for the president: Gallup's survey now finds only 38% expressing satisfaction with the "state of the country" while 59% are "dissatisfied." One in three Americans feel the economy is excellent or good, while the rest find it "only fair" or poor.

Gallup noted that more challenges lie ahead for Bush, including public doubts about his Social Security plan and Iraq policies.

Here are the approval ratings for presidents as recorded by Gallup in the March following their re-election:

Truman, 1949: 57%.

Eisenhower, 1957: 65%.

Johnson, 1965: 69%.

Nixon, 1973: 57%.

Reagan, 1985: 56%.

Clinton, 1997: 59% .

Bush, 2005: 45% .

Okay, tell us again how Bush won his re-election even though all the exit polls showed Kerry in a landslide. Go on. Tell us. We LOVE that one. It's almost as funny as the one about Saddam's 'nookular' weapons.


As a legal noose appears to be tightening around the Bush/Cheney/Rove inner circle, a shocking government report shows the floor under the legitimacy of their alleged election to the White House is crumbling.

The latest critical confirmation of key indicators that the election of 2004 was stolen comes in an extremely powerful, penetrating report from the General Accounting Office that has gotten virtually no mainstream media coverage.
The government's lead investigative agency is known for its general incorruptibility and its thorough, in-depth analyses. Its concurrence with assertions widely dismissed as "conspiracy theories" adds crucial new weight to the case that Team Bush has no legitimate business being in the White House. [Free Press 10/26/2005]

The Government Accounting Office has confirmed what the blogs reported and the mainstream media media dismissed as "conspiracy theory". The electronic voting machines were wide open to fraud, and fraud likely occured in Ohio, Iowa, Nevada, and New Mexico, among other states.

There are pics and video clips also....http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html

[snowy]

My vote is priceless.

[LoganSnake]

I'd sell it for a million bucks. I'd probably sell it for less since I don't use it anyway.

[Tophat665]

It's all retail. My right to vote is not for sale for any less than a planetary budget and 100% sovereignty over a piece of ground large enough to support and defend me and mine (thus rendering the sale entirely pointless). However, I would consider selling single votes here and there if the price were right and I didn't have a horse in the race.

[Strange Famous]

I'd sell my vote in a capitalist liberal democracy for 20 grand. It isnt worth much to me to be honest.

To paraphrase Bill Hicks...

"I agree with the puppet on the left"
"no, I agree with the puppet on the right"
"but wait... the same guy same guy is controlling both puppets!"

___

Which capitalist you put in power (and youre vote only matters if you live in a marginal anway...) is relevant in terms of the competence by which they run the state... but it is not POLITICALLY relevant. The vote is not a political exercise, it is simply a case of personality and style. Political action will occur through more direct means. In the fullness of the time, the present parties will be abolished. Whether we prefer Russian Mafiya or Japanese Yakuza to be in control of the neighbourhood is not a choice that is meaningless, but our true desire is to abolish them both.

Voting really is a very poor thing.

[Ustwo]

Oh no Dave is on to us, time to call out the 'squad'.

[Willravel]

I'd not sell my vote, but I'd by the vote of others who otherwise wouldn't vote. Just because I value my vote doesn't mean others have to.

[Ustwo]

My personal feeling is those of you who say you won't sell your vote are lying to yourselves.

Everyone has a price, and since its 'just one vote' I'm willing to bet that price is pretty low.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

My personal feeling is those of you who say you won't sell your vote are lying to yourselves.

Everyone has a price, and since its 'just one vote' I'm willing to bet that price is pretty low.

Just because you have a price hardly means everyone does, and here you go trying to mind-read again.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by willravel

Just because you have a price hardly means everyone does, and here you go trying to mind-read again.

No Will, I'm sorry but you do.

If it were high enough you would justify it by thinking to yourself how many genocidal communists you could finance their campaigns for, but you do have a price.

[Strange Famous]

I think I've heard that line before... Ted Dibiase?

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

No Will, I'm sorry but you do.

If it were high enough you would justify it by thinking to yourself how many genocidal communists you could finance their campaigns for, but you do have a price.

I don't know if you missed it somehow, but I'm madly political, a socialist, and not poor. I'm more than comfortable, and I don't like the accumulation of wealth, even my own. Not only that, but if you're one out of maybe 6 people who is supporting Kucinich, your vote counts.

So no, I'd not sell my vote for anything less than maybe $10 trillion, or enough to get the entire US government out of debt. And I would give every last dollar to fix the messes and make sure that our government isn't constantly cutting off funding from necessary programs because we need to balance the budget. And I'd pay it all on January 20, 2009.


BTW, I've had a lot of people on TFP tell me what I'm thinking lately. It stops now. What I'm writing is what I'm thinking and someone I've never even met having the gaul to tell me they know what I'm thinking or going to do better than I am is wasting their useless breath. With all due respect, if you're going to tell me what I'm thinking you can go suck a lemon.

[filtherton]

Holy shit! Ted Dibiase? Nice one, SF.


Will, quit thinking about my ass.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

My personal feeling is those of you who say you won't sell your vote are lying to yourselves.

Everyone has a price, and since its 'just one vote' I'm willing to bet that price is pretty low.

I grew up in a family that takes civic duty seriously. They raised me to do the same. My father and brother are delegates to the Democratic party in their state. Being a part of the political process, by being an educated voter, being involved, and voting, has always been an important part of my life. I worked on my first campaign at the age of 12 (a local school board campaign), and have been volunteering for campaigns ever since.

My voice and my vote is important to me. Like I said in my post above, it's priceless. I would not sell it to anyone, for anything.

Give me liberty or give me death, as Patrick Henry famously said. My liberty is my vote.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

My personal feeling is those of you who say you won't sell your vote are lying to yourselves.

Everyone has a price, and since its 'just one vote' I'm willing to bet that price is pretty low.

The OP states it is to sell your vote forever. I don't see that as a negotiable saleable item.

If it was to sell it for one single election, I think you'd be right, everyone does have a selling price for that. But to give it up forever?

What I do find surprising here is that people are willing to sell it forever. They are willing to lay down and roll over. This suprises me just as much as those students polled a few years ago that suggest curbing the right to free speech because media outlets go too far.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

The OP states it is to sell your vote forever. I don't see that as a negotiable saleable item.

If it was to sell it for one single election, I think you'd be right, everyone does have a selling price for that. But to give it up forever?

What I do find surprising here is that people are willing to sell it forever. They are willing to lay down and roll over. This suprises me just as much as those students polled a few years ago that suggest curbing the right to free speech because media outlets go too far.

Write me a check for a few 100 million and you can have my vote. I'll be liberal proof forever, and I can even join them Barbara Streisand style, flying to feel good functions in my private jet.

I'd also be able to influence more people so while maybe MY vote is gone, I'd be able to swing skulls of mush to where I'd want to vote anyways.

Lets think of it this way. Being able to vote in a fair system, is a huge deal for the average citizen. Its a form of power sharing thats pretty rare in world history. Having a lot of money is a form a power thats pretty damn traditional in any government. So obviously no one would be stupid enough to offer me 'vote money' in a sufficient amount to convince me to to it, I do have a price, when the money I gain would be greater than the 'power' of the vote.

Now you couldn't pay me enough to say turn the country into the dystopia the country would be if some of our left wing TFPers had sway, but thats not the question here.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Now you couldn't pay me enough to say turn the country into the dystopia the country would be if some of our left wing TFPers had sway, but thats not the question here.

If I bought your vote, you bet your ass I'd be voting socialist with it.

[flstf]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:from bondage to spiritual faith;from spiritual faith to great courage;from courage to liberty;from liberty to abundance;from abundance to selfishness;from selfishness to complacency;from complacency to apathy;from apathy to dependency;from dependency back again to bondage. - Sir Alex Fraser Tytler


Votes are already being bought directly with welfare checks, food stamps, health care, affirmative action. Indirectly with tax cuts, public facilities in your district, military bases/federal jobs in district, and other 'pork'.

Its only a matter of time.

I'm at the apathy stage and if it wasn't for some local bond issues etc.. I'd give my vote away. The major parties have a monopoly on most national elections and both are trying to out do the other to grow the government ever larger and control more and more of our lives.