Burka/Niqab/Hijab/Islamic 'Headscarves': Religious Freedom or Religious Oppression?

[Lucifer]

I've considered starting this thread before, but have finally been compelled to do it today. I'm hearby opening the floor for enthusiastic and respectful debate on the subject of Muslim Head Coverings. I'm curious about whether the act of a woman covering her head is an act of religious freedom or religious oppression. As usual, our resident muslim, Dlish, is more than welcome to jump in and give his valued opinion.

I was at work recently, and observed a young muslim woman with her friends. She was wearing a hijab, which completely covered her head, neck and shoulders. Below that, she was wearing the tightest pair of jeans I had seen this year. I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition, with the one seemly in the name of modesty and the other flagrantly not so.

Now I'm not having issues with a woman's choice to wear whatever she wishes, but I'm curious about a religion that wants a woman to cover up. The western christian part of me can't help but think that any religion that forces a woman to dress differently than men is doing it out of a sense of oppression, and yet I've read articles and blogs from muslim women who say that they wear it out of choice. I know that in a lot of places and cultures, a woman doesn't have the right to choose. Even in Canada, I wonder if a lot of these young women that I see, with the head covering and the tight jeans are being forced to wear it by family pressures.

[Charlatan]

The only issue I ever have with any form of covering is that I am okay with it so long as it is the individual's choice to wear it. If that person is forced to wear the garment by law, family pressure, or whatever... it is no longer acceptable to me.

[dlish]

i have a lot to add to this thread i think, but today has been a busy day. im heading out the door in a few, so ill come back to this thread later..

i was in north Lebanon about a year ago, and came across this poster. I thought it was quite funny, so i took a picture of it.



ill translate the arabic for everyone

sister, dress as your please, but without sin

keep your hijab within (the confines of)

being non descript

covering the body

The hijab is not a cover for the head only

the hijab is a loose garment that should not be tight and should cover the body

This is not hijab

I guess the poster has a point. if you're going to wear it, wear it properly.

the problem is that as time changes, and as women become more empowered, especially here in the missle east, you're going to find more and more women pushing the boundaries.

there has been a movement the last decade or so, on the verses of the quran itself and what it says about the hijab. some women are of the opinion that the hijab is not mandatory because it is not specifically mentioned in the quran. the quran tells the women to guard their modesty and cover their chests, but says nothing about covering the head.

ive got to split, so ill come back later

[crazypants]

Maybe, I shouldn't be posting, seeing as I don't have an exact opinion either way. I'm not at all a feminist, but I understand how it can be seen as female oppression. All that good stuff about forcing a woman to wear something that covers her...and ya ya ya.

Mostly though, every religion has things that the mass majority believes in. Polygamy is wrong. It's irresponsible to tithe. Telling sins to one man sounds ridiculous. It is silly that you will have your own planet in the after life. Hours of prayer are a waste of time. Sex before marriage sends you to hell.

These concepts are vague, but any religion or culture has specific beliefs that they follow. I feel that it is ignorant to disagree with any of them. To each their own, no matter how twisted I think it is.

[StanT]

Hmmm, "This is not hijab" is very common in Boulder.


When on vacation in Italy, I saw a van pull up with several families. All of the women were fully covered; but wearing some outrageous blue shoes. 15 min later, they were out dressed as "thou shalt not" with the same blue shoes. "When in Rome..." and all.
I think there is usually a comfortable compromise between cultural and religious sensitivities.

[Lindy]

Originally Posted by StanT

....
I think there is usually a comfortable compromise between cultural and religious sensitivities.

StanT, I agree. Unfortunately, some sects are not open to "comfortable compromise" and find great discomfort in any compromise.

Lindy

[dlish]

Originally Posted by Lindy

StanT, I agree. Unfortunately, some sects are not open to "comfortable compromise" and find great discomfort in any compromise.

Lindy

id be interested in hearing more of what you think Lindy. I know of some muslim women from many different walks of life that dont feel a great deal of comfort dressing in a way that they feel is inappropriate. There are more in some sects than others, but its not exclusive to any particular group.

I think that your comment about people finding any degree of comprimise unacceptable a bit of a reach.

Originally Posted by StanT

Hmmm, "This is not hijab" is very common in Boulder.


When on vacation in Italy, I saw a van pull up with several families. All of the women were fully covered; but wearing some outrageous blue shoes. 15 min later, they were out dressed as "thou shalt not" with the same blue shoes. "When in Rome..." and all.
I think there is usually a comfortable compromise between cultural and religious sensitivities.

i found the same thing in Turkey. I rarely saw covered women ( arabian gulf hijabis) in istanbul, but upon entering and exiting attaturk international airport the place was full of dish-dashes and hijabs. i only spotted 1 the whole time i was there.

what i have noticed is that the legion of faithful tend to be in countries that are outside the realm of traditional islamic countries. personally, im finding that muslims in non-muslim countries tend to adhere to their faith more than those back home.

[genuinegirly]

One of my Persian friends would wear modest but stylish clothes - she was always wearing collared shirts and long loose pants or skirts with her beautiful headscarves. She seemed to be doing her best to dress appropriately for her faith while not sticking out in a crowd. She didn't feel oppressed. It was entirely her choice to wear her scarf. She made the choice in high school, and was at peace with her decision.

That said, she did seem bothered if someone acknowledged it. I remember one instance when we were eating lunch together and a woman who was dressed with a different style scarf and looser attire (whom she didn't know) smiled and nodded at her. She was polite and smiled back. I asked her if she knew her, and she responded that she didn't, and that the woman's nod to her was a sort of sign of solidarity - but she admitted that it is tiresome at times, and in this case it was a bit of an insult. I never did understand that - though now that I see Dlish's poster, I can see how the woman wearing looser, more drab clothing could have been looking down on my stylish friend.

This is off topic, but...
My grandmother (not Muslim) often wore headscarves in the winter. She had a strikingly colorful collection, and they looked beautiful on her. Following her lead, I often wrap my scarves the same way she used to - they are more comfortable and elegant than hats. But I wear them this way less and less, since people stare. Badly. It's a shame that head scarves are no longer viewed as an accessory by non-Muslims.

[Strange Famous]

as I understand, and I am not an expert on Islam, there is not exactly a religious commandment for Muslim women to wear any of these things.

I thought it was a cultural practice which Muhammad encouraged his wives to conform to, but not because it was commanded by God?

_

I personally have no problem with women choosing to wear them, only a problem if they are forced to by male family members.

[Willravel]

So long as it's voluntary, it's religious freedom. The moment it becomes compulsory, it becomes oppression. Burka bans violate religious freedom.

[Charlatan]

It was only a few hundred years ago that many (if not all) Christian women had to keep their heads covered as well. Things evolve over time. So too will Islam.

[Baraka_Guru]

Christians used to force their women into hiding while they were menstruating, because they were deemed unclean.

Yes, societies do evolve. Islam has a liberalization movement already.

[StanT]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Christians used to force their women into hiding while they were menstruating

Now it's the men that hide.



Sorry, back to our topic.

[EventHorizon]

Originally Posted by Willravel

So long as it's voluntary, it's religious freedom. The moment it becomes compulsory, it becomes oppression. Burka bans violate religious freedom.

doesnt it all depend on frame of reference? some would argue that in the stan, wearing the garment is oppression, whereas in france, forcing people not to wear it is also oppression. its more of a clash of cultures than anything

[blktour]

to the OP why not just ask her?

I would've. I think religion gets convoluted sometimes, but reasons for doing it per person. I would have asked the person.

She couldve said, "because they tell me to and i respect them. " or whatever. or could have said, I did it in faith at first now it becomes habit? "

I say that all humans take rules and thoughts and beliefs and make it their own, and stray from "crossing of the T's" if they dont fully understand, or sometimes are ignorant to the fact ?

[Lucifer]