RANT: How many chances are to many?

[Dane Bramage]

I saw this today, and I must say that it really pisses me off. I figure it belongs in "Politics" since the issue is crime and punishment.

Here is the story, clipped from the AP Wire @ Yahoo News:

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - Lionel Tate pleaded guilty Wednesday to the armed robbery of a pizza delivery man last spring, which could net him up to 30 years in prison but spare him a possible life sentence for violating probation in the 1999 killing of a young girl.
ADVERTISEMENT

Tate, once the youngest person in modern U.S. history to receive a life prison sentence, said "Yes, sir" when Broward County Circuit Judge Joel T. Lazarus asked him if he would plead guilty to the robbery. Lazarus scheduled sentencing for April 3, and said Tate could receive between 10 and 30 years in prison.

Tate's attorney, Ellis Rubin, said the evidence in the pizza robbery case was "overwhelming" and that Tate got the best deal he could.

"This was the only professional and ethical thing to do," Rubin said. "I think justice was done today."

Tate also admitted that he had violated probation by possessing a gun during the robbery last May, and that he violated laws by doing so. Lazarus said that any sentence he imposes for those violations would run concurrently with the robbery sentence.

Tate's mother, Florida Highway Patrol trooper Kathleen Grossett-Tate, said she was "hopeful" that Lazarus would impose the minimum 10-year sentence and that her son was optimistic about his future once he is finally released.

"He's as OK as he can be," she said. "It's very emotional."

Prosecutor Chuck Morton said Tate accepted the plea deal because "he had an opportunity to avoid spending the rest of his life in jail". Morton added that the family of the girl Tate killed in 1999 had agreed to the plea bargain.

Tate, dressed in a black-and-white striped jail jumpsuit, said little in the brief hearing except to answer the judge's questions and will continue to be held without bail.

The guilty plea is the latest twist in the long-running case of Tate, who was convicted of killing 6-year-old Tiffany Eunick when he was only 12.

Tate, now 19, did not have to be convicted of the robbery for Lazarus to decide he must go to prison, but the guilty plea settles that matter.

Tate came to national attention after Eunick's murder at his mother's home. The boy's lawyers initially claimed that girl, who suffered skull fractures and a lacerate liver, was accidentally killed when Tate imitated pro wrestling moves he'd seen on television.

He was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in 2001, but an appeals court in 2004 tossed out the conviction and sentence after ruling that it wasn't clear Tate understood what was happening to him. He then pleaded guilty to second-degree murder as part of a deal with prosecutors and was sentenced to 10 years' probation.

Lazarus added five more years to the probation term after Tate was arrested in September 2004 for carrying a knife with a four-inch blade. The judge warned Tate then that he had "zero tolerance" for future violations.

But police say it didn't take long for Tate to find trouble again.

Last May 23, Tate called Domino's Pizza from a friend's apartment and ordered four pizzas. A friend later told police that Tate, armed with a revolver, hit behind the apartment door when delivery man arrived with the order.

The delivery man, who dropped the pizzas and ran after seeing the gun, identified Tate as the perpetrator and Tate's fingerprints were found on the pizza boxes, police said. There were also text messages on Tate's cell phone planning the robbery.

Tate was also suspected in the theft of weapons from his mother.

The thing that gets me is this... He kills a girl at age 12 and gets life which is then reduced to 10 years probation for 2nd degree murder. Later, he breaks probation for possesion of a weapon and has now committed armed robbery. He's only 19, and yet he continues to break the law even being implicated with stealing weapons from his State Trooper mom. And she hopes that he only gets the minimum sentance... WTF?!?

Am I the only one that thinks this guy should be sent to the glue factory?

Dane.

[maleficent]

Killer at 12, teen back in prison for 30 years

FORT LAUDERDALE, Florida (AP) -- Lionel Tate, the teenager who got a second chance after he beat and stomped a 6-year-old girl to death, was sent back to prison for 30 years Thursday for gun possession.

"In plain English, Lionel Tate, you've run out of chances. You do not get any more," Circuit Judge Joel T. Lazarus told Tate, who smirked as he was led off to jail in shackles.

Tate, now 19, was convicted of beating Tiffany Eunick to death in 1999, when he was 12, claiming he accidentally killed the girl while imitating pro wrestling moves he had seen on television. He became the youngest person in modern U.S. history to receive a life sentence.

His murder conviction was overturned in 2004 by an appeals court that said it was not clear Tate understood the charges. He was freed under a deal in which he pleaded guilty to second-degree murder and was sentenced to 10 years' probation.

On Thursday, he was back in court over the holdup of a pizza deliveryman last May.

In a deal with prosecutors, Tate had faced 10 to 30 years in prison after pleading guilty to robbery and violating his probation by having a gun. On Thursday, the judge let him withdraw his guilty plea in the robbery but still sentenced him on the gun charge. The robbery trial is set for September 18.

Defense attorney H. Dohn Williams said he did not understand why Tate would want to go to trial on the robbery charge, given that a conviction could bring a life sentence in addition to the 30 years for the probation violation.

"He continues to get bad advice from meddling third parties," Williams said outside court.

Williams said Tate's mother, Florida Highway Patrol trooper Kathleen Grossett-Tate, told him he could win an appeal on the probation violation conviction, win his robbery case and leave jail in a year. She left court without commenting.

Williams pleaded with the judge for leniency, blaming Tate's criminal behavior on his upbringing.

"The death of Tiffany Eunick would never have occurred if there had been proper parental guidance and control," Williams said. "Six-year-old Tiffany tragically died while ... roughhousing with a 6-year-old boy in a 12-year-old's body."

The judge said Tate has shown "disdain and disrespect" for the law after repeated opportunities to redeem himself.

Since his release in 1999, Tate has had numerous run-ins with the law. In 2004, the judge sentenced him to an additional five years' probation for having a knife.

Last month, the judge ruled for the second time that Tate was competent to face the robbery charge after Tate claimed he was mentally ill from years of abuse by his mother. He claimed he was hearing voices and contemplating suicide, a story he later admitted was a ruse.

What a charming family...

30 years seems excessive for a gun charge, though in this case, getting this young man off the street for 30 years is a good thing...

[Cynthetiq]

eh, this is america, the land of infinite chances, in fact, your chances get better if you are "edgy." America likes the underdog so much that they are willing to give up their own children and unborn to see him succeed.

[Toaster126]

The most disturbing part of this isn't that this kids is a fuckup and has proven that by fucking up so many times... the most disturbing part is that a 12 year old was sentenced to life in prison. I hate that the system has an age set for adulthood, then decides people can be treated as an adult. Either people are adults, or they aren't.

[Halx]

Johnny was bad, even as a child everybody could tell
Everyone said if you don't get straight
You'll surely go to hell

But johnny didn't care
He was an outlaw by the time that he was
Ten years old
He didn't wanna do what he was told
Just a prankster, juvenile gangster

His teachers didn't understand
They kicked him out of school
At a tender early age
Just because he didn't want to learn things
(had other interests)
He liked to burn things

The lady down the block
She had a radio that johnny wanted oh so bad
So he took it the first chance he had
Then he shot her in the leg
And this is what she said
Only a lad
You really can't blame him
Only a lad
Society made him
Only a lad
He's our responsibility
Only a lad
He really couldn't help it
Only a lad
He didn't want to do it
Only a lad
He's underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused



His parents gave up they couldn't influence his attitude
Nobody could help
The little man had no gratitude

And when he stole the care
Nobody dreamed that he would
Try to take it so far
He didn't mean to hit the poor man
Who had to go and die
It made the judge cry

Only a lad
He really couldn't help it
Only a lad
He didn't want to do it
Only a lad
He's underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused

It's not his fault that he can't believe
It's not his fault that he can't behave
Society made him go astray
Perhaps if we're nice he'll go away
Perhaps he'll go away
He'll go away

(repeat chorus)

Hey there johnny you really don't fool me
You get away with murder
And you think it's funny
You don't give a damn if we live or if we die
Hey there johnny boy
I hope you fry!

[Sweetpea]

sadly our justice system does not accurately address rehabilitation on even the minimum level.

and also sadly, our justice system does a poor job most of the time at recognizing individuals that have little chance of, or cannot be rehabilitated.

sweetpea

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Halx

Johnny was bad, even as a child everybody could tell
Everyone said if you don't get straight
You'll surely go to hell

But johnny didn't care
He was an outlaw by the time that he was
Ten years old
He didn't wanna do what he was told
Just a prankster, juvenile gangster

HAHAH

I didn't even think about this song when I read this article, but how apt!

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

sadly our justice system does not accurately address rehabilitation on even the minimum level.

Prison is about punishment...

A person needs rehabilition? Go to church, go to school, have the desire to want to do something with their lives... you can't forcefeed that to a person.. they have to find it in themselves...

[kutulu]

Originally Posted by maleficent

Prison is about punishment...

A person needs rehabilition? Go to church, go to school, have the desire to want to do something with their lives... you can't forcefeed that to a person.. they have to find it in themselves...

Are you serious? Unless the person is a lifer they WILL be back on the streets someday. The prison system right now is like Criminal University. I think it's very important that we make sure that ex-cons leave prison with some sort of skill set and a plan for the management of their life and how to stay out of crime. I'd rather spend some money trying to keep these people out of trouble than turn a blind eye and wait for them to victimize someone else.

Another thing, a life sentence for a 12 year old is just plain asinine.

[Plaid13]

ok so he kills someone when hes 12 and basicly gets a slap on the wrist... that i can deal with since he was just a kid but... then he robs someone after he is a adult... apparently he has no more sence now then when he was 12. he should just be shot right on the spot and save the tax payers alot of money. this guy dosnt deserve to live. As far as im concerned anyone that kills someone else should have no rights after that. none at all. He has already shown he has no respect for others and less then a dollar for the cost of a bullet would solve alot of future problems that will come from this guy. let his family that apparently cant teach the kid any common sence pay to throw him in the ground. After killing a 6 year old girl he should be spending the rest of his life trying to earn forgiviness and making up for that kind of insanity. but apparently he dosnt care about that.

[mr_alleycat]

After killing a 6 year old girl he should be spending the rest of his life trying to earn forgiviness and making up for that kind of insanity. but apparently he dosnt care about that.

I agree, he as no remorse, he believes he was the victim.
Mommy got him off on several incidents, but I'm happy to see the judge taking him off the street.

[The_Jazz]

I don't think that it's right to try a 12-year-old as an adult in any circumstances. At 12, no one is even close to being an adult.

That said, this guy's a perfect example of the failure of the justice system to rehabilitate minors. That's the whole point of the juvenille justice system - rehabilitation. All the records are secret, and you don't have to admit them on job application. The idea is that you'll be reformed, but that's getting to be rarer and rarer. My mother is a school social worker and has several kids come out of reform school and back into her schools. She just testified in a case where a kid did 3 years for stealing a car when he was 9 and crashing it into a building. Now he's 15 and beat up one of his classmates with a 2x4. He's now been diagnosed as scizofrenic, but there was no diagnosis or treatment in the reform school.

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I don't think that it's right to try a 12-year-old as an adult in any circumstances. At 12, no one is even close to being an adult.
.

the basis for trying anyone as an adult is whether or not they have the ability to know right from wrong... a 12 year old better know right from wrong.... i

[hulk]

Strange, that. If a child is tried as an adult, is he allowed to drink? I mean, he's obviously responsible for his actions and the consequences...

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by maleficent

the basis for trying anyone as an adult is whether or not they have the ability to know right from wrong... a 12 year old better know right from wrong.... i

Agreed, but there's also the question as to whether or not they can comprehend the longterm ramifications of their actions. An adult can say, "if I steal this car, I'll go to jail and have to pay for any damage that I do with it or to it", and a 12-year-old would say "if I steal this car, my mom's going to be mad at me" even though the punishment would be similar (jail time and restitution).

[MSD]

Originally Posted by maleficent

30 years seems excessive for a gun charge, though in this case, getting this young man off the street for 30 years is a good thing...

Being a strong supporter of both the right to bear arms and personal responsibility, I don't think that 30 years is at all excessive for having a gun during a robbery. If he's been foudn guilty of murder before, he should be in for life, no parole for at least that first 30 years.

[Lady Sage]

Sadly, prison isnt about punnishment anymore, its about getting cable tv and a college degree at the expense of tax payers. The imprisoned should get a small cell a mattress, a pillow and maybe a pot to pee in. Other than that, an hour outside in the sunshine is more free time than those they killed will ever have again and I feel it is far too kind.
I agree with Mr. SelfDestruct. There is nothing wrong with owning a gun! Guns DO NOT kill people, spouses that come home early do. We would have less crime if the "bad people" (as my godchildren call them) knew who was armed.
Alas, this is naught but the ramblings of an insane woman and should probably be ignored but hey, just my 2 cents.

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

Sadly, prison isnt about punnishment anymore, its about getting cable tv and a college degree at the expense of tax payers. The imprisoned should get a small cell a mattress, a pillow and maybe a pot to pee in. Other than that, an hour outside in the sunshine is more free time than those they killed will ever have again and I feel it is far too kind.

Here's an excellent example of the popular misconception of the conditions in American prisons. Prisons, even minimum security ones, are not "country clubs", and they certainly are not an enjoyable place to be as you seem to think, Lady Sage. If it's cable tv and free education, I'm committing a crime next week! Here are some examples:

http://www.fcc.state.fl.us/fcc/repor...l99/ap5-6.html
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/ag...onditions.html
http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/KatzLevittShustrovich2003.pdf#search='conditions%20in%20prison'

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

I agree with Mr. SelfDestruct. There is nothing wrong with owning a gun! Guns DO NOT kill people, spouses that come home early do. We would have less crime if the "bad people" (as my godchildren call them) knew who was armed.
Alas, this is naught but the ramblings of an insane woman and should probably be ignored but hey, just my 2 cents.

There are several threads discussing gun control, and this comment is probably best posted there.

[Lady Sage]

*Raises eyebrow* Fascinating that my opinions seem to have stirred your undaunting admiration. I shall be ever so careful not to fully reply to the things stated in the post above mine and avoid such futile attempts at making a funny in the future. Gods forbid I should state my opinion in such a careless and crass way in the future.
Perhaps in the future people could care to read the last line that I posted in my previous post and I quote "Alas, this is naught but the ramblings of an insane woman and should probably be ignored but hey, just my 2 cents."

[MSD]

Nobody's post was out of line, but I think it would be best if we stick to the topic at hand, which is the discussion of the appropriate punishment of a particular person. I think it's fair to say that the discussion of conditions in US prisons is big enough to warrant its own thread.