Wheelchair bound florida woman dies after police taser her..
 

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/25/D8H74A0G0.html

I'm not sure what to say here - tasers are a bit extreme if you ask me.

There had to be another way of handling this with someone in a wheelchair.

It's not like she's fully mobile in a wheelchair.

They shoulda just tipped her over.

Swinging knives and a hammer is extreme. How else do you subdue someone like that? Did you want them to shoot her? I'm very thankful for the tasers. There are too many instances where a police officer is threatened by a person- what do you want them to do, shoot them all? Sometimes, that was the only option- call for backup, try not to have to shoot, and pray to God your reluctance to shoot doesn't cost your own life.

I don't care if they're 100 years old and in a motorized chair, totally paralyzed from the neck down except for one arm- if that one arm is swinging a knife at a cop and threatening them, and the police can't safely get close enough to disarm them, they should be tasered.

You do not threaten or endanger the life of a police officer. Period.

What the fuck happened to good, ole fashioned MACE? Huh? That seems a FAR less likely to be lethal alternative to a taser or gun, especially for those who aren't going to have much resistance to it, like a 56 year old in a wheelchair. While I agree that the authorities have every right to defend themselves and others from attacks like this, what they did in this case was an example of not thinking through the situation, and using the fix-all alternative on someone who would have been much more easily subdued.

A taser is a weapon that has the capacity to kill its target, especially when misused. It's made to be effective in most all cases, which means that it's overkill for a good pecentage of them. Police do still carry pepper spray, right? It's easy to misunderstand the pressure involved in a situation, but how hard is it to think something like, 200lb assailant with weapons=taser, grandma with a hammer/knife=spray? Seems we can get carried away when new technology is presented to us.

1. No one said or suggested, in any way, that it was misused. If you're the one suggesting misuse, i'd like to know why you think that, and what you're offering to back up your guesswork.
2. "Capacity to kill" is a bullshit throw-away term. Lots of things can kill a person. I can kill a person with two fingers. If they sprayed her with mace, the chemicals could have thrown her respiratory system into arrest. You don't know that. Not to mention the fact that they might not carry mace, if they carry tasers.

I'd like to see the numbers to support that rather lofty claim.

It's even easier to misunderstand the situation when you weren't there, and definitely don't have all the facts. I don't think, from what I read, there was any kind of "being carried away" here.

And If this "grandma with a hammer" managed to throw the hammer or a knife and seriously wound an officer after having been maced, were mace an option, I don't believe your tone would be the same.

I think this is just a tragic accident. She was a threat to people, including an officer. Mace could have killed her too, and is far less restraining. The police were right to taser her, wheelchair or no.

If she didn't want to get hit with a taser she probably shouldn't be swinging knives and hammers at her family members and police officers.

I know there are times an active nutjob needs to be taken down, but a retiree in a wheelchair shouldn't be tough. Hell, close the door if you need to puzzle over it for awhile. Use a net. We've all heard enough taser "events" to know the list needs other "non-lethal" solutions.

Why not just back away and let her calm down? Diffuse the situation rather than escalate.

Sure she was wrong to be swing knives and hammers. But if you leave her in her room or house and close the doors, she will have to calm down sometime. It isn't like she could get very far.

Equal rights for the handicaped means being tasered now and then.

You swing a hammer and knife at cops, you get tasered. I think that is completely acceptable, and I can't think of the mitigating circumstances that would stop that from being a good idea.

If police can't outsmart someone in a wheelchair throwing things, they don't deserve to be an officer. Like Charaltan and cyrnel said, just let her wear herself out. I can't imagine willfully inflicting that kind of pain on an old lady in a wheelchair.

This isn't exactly a rare instance either. About every other week you get a report of police shocking someone to death.

Are we more safe or less safe with police officers who are willing to shock 8 year olds and people in wheel chairs?

56 is not exactly old...

The family called the police to settle a dispute in the home... The family didn't feel safe leaving her in a locked room.

The police are supposed to wait out a person waving knives with them... What would have happened if this woman hurt someone - the police would have been blamed for inaction...

56 is not old

Green Springs Cove Data

The town itself isn't exactly a crime free haven... US average is 329.7 - Green SPrings Cove is 473.6 - for a really small town...

The cops have to do what they have to do...

The number of deaths in 2005 was 61, so it's a little higher than one a week...

USA: Renewed call for suspension as taser-related deaths pass 150 mark

I'll field this one.
Because, there is no right way to handle any situation...until it's over. It's extremely easy to look back on any given situation and say "This is what should've happened". Even the police themselves do it. Trust me. ;)
Let's say that by allowing the lady to "wear herself down", she ends up injuring herself. Then the police are villified for not taking a proactive approach to the situation. They just stood around with their thumbs up their collective asses. Again...trust me. ;)

That...may be the funniest thing that I've seen this week. :lol:

I'm gonna go ahead and say that the police were within bounds to use a taser on this woman. I worked in a psychiatric hospital as a program counselor(think of an orderly for job description) for 9 months. Part of my job was helping restrain patients when they became a danger to themselves or others. So let me just say this, a 56 yr. old woman weilding a knife, in a wheelchair or not, is DANGEROUS*. You would be suprised at how quickly a person you think harmless can move and how quickly they will strike out with little to or warning. Even a police officer moving in tandem with another one could have easily been hurt, maimed or killed trying to subdue the woman in closed proximity. As for a net, it may limit her motion some, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to stab through it when the police moved in to disarm her. Regardless of how ridiculous it may look in your head to picture a woman in a wheelchair as being a danger to police officers, you would be wrong. As for locking her in a room and letting her cool down, what if she had gone into a depressive state realizing she had just threatened her family and killed herself? It is not a safe option to leave someone who is agitated to that extreme by themselves.

*Not that any of the patients I worked with ever got a hold of a knife while at the hospital, but I could just imagine the havoc that would ensue if they did.

Knife-weilding psycho wheelchair-bound granny on the lose.....

Quick! Run up the stairs!

So the old lady deserves special treatment and the ability to waste real cops hours away just because she's in a wheelchair? If you endanger a cop, you're endangering yourself. Not hard to understand. It's tragic that the shock resulted in her death, but blaming ANY of this on the cops is ridiculous.

So much second guessing by people who weren't there. "Oh they're stupid because they couldn't outsmart a lady in a wheelchair." And "oh they should have used mace."

Unless you were there, I know you can't tell me that their INTENT was to kill this lady.

I urge you to check out:

http://www.taser.com/facts/testimonials.htm

Tasers are something upwards of 98% non-fatal. Guns? I dare you to find a statistic showing the fatality rates of them.

Swinging knives and hammers at your FAMILY AND police officers? TASER please!

This is in close running for my new sig.

What about her hurting HERSELF with the weapons she was wielding?

I think the action was justified in this circumstance, and am thankful that the good people at Taser Inc. created a less-than-lethal alternative to the police.

The media would have grabbed onto this anyway. Crazy + violent + wheelchair = evening news. I would have liked to see a 275 pound cop cold-cock her in the jaw. Imagine the fall-out from that?

Cops defence: "I didn't feel safe Tasering her, because that might kill her. So I just threw my weight into the punch and broke her jaw. Hey, it got the job done..."

How many Taser deaths are associated with huge quantities of drugs running through the "Victim's" bloodstream? Meth, PCP, Steroids. I would like to see those numbers.

And for me to be ENTIRELY POLITICALLY INCORRECT: Spoiler: How many law enforcement officers using Tasers have been 95 pound females? These competent, intelligent, seasoned officers MUST escalate their level of force when confronted in a physical situation. A 275 pound man can walk into violence and not resort to pepper spray, Tasers or a baton. He wades in and gets the job done. The Woman has to reach for her Batman utility belt when someone sneezes.

We're all guessing, no?

I must have missed the section of the Americans with Disabilities Act that gives special privileges to the handicapped when they are actively threatening police officers with deadly weapons.

The only think I dislike about tasers is the spelling: TAZOR is much more threatening.

Not one of you who advocates the tazoring of this woman has given a reason why they couldn't just back away and let her calm down.

She's in a wheelchair... it isn't like she was going to chase them down and jump them with her knife. I think it is pretty safe to say, they could have kept clear of her kitchen knives and hammers.

I can agree that there are situations where force and tazoring is neccessary... this just doesn't smell right.

OK, I missed some responses... (rereading)

the family was the one who called the police in... why didn't the family wait for her to calm down?

Why shoudl the police stand around waiting for something that might or might not happen... when something worse could potentially happen?

Why not? Their job isn't to process a scene as quickly as possible. It is to serve and protect.

I did think about the possibility that she might hurt herself. I figure, if she hurt herself, it would be better than hurting someone else.

Again, it all depends on the situation and since no of us were there we are just armchair quarterbacking this one.

As it reads, I still say you back away and bring it down a notch or two. It's what they would have done if they didn't have tazers.

AHA! And here steps in one fundamental misconception the public have of police work. Many police organizations' only measure of police efficiency is clearance rates - number of cases closed/resolved divided by total number of reports. Job efficiency is paramount. Clear as many cases as you can, as fast as you can, and you'll get promoted.

The police are obligated to stop both of these from occurring. Nobody can consent to bodily harm on themselves, and the police are obligated to stop you if you are doing it. This is why just locking her in a room is a totally unacceptable response option. De-escalating the situation when someone has a knife and a hammer, whether they're able bodied, in a wheelchair, or have leprosy, is all tantamount to the same thing: disabling the threat of force to the offender and complaintant alike.

The Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle is an intermediate force option between open hand techniques and deadly force.

Asking a police officer to get within 15ft of someone with a knife puts them at risk of death. So automatically open hand techniques are out the window as a likely response option.

This leaves intermediate force options such as pepper spray, the TASER, etc. In many police departments, the use of the TASER has supplanted the use of pepper spray / mace. Likely because it is immediately effectivel as opposed to 5-30 seconds for pepper spray and mace. They both also require you to get within the danger zone in order to use them.

Like you said, we're armchairing this one. However, this is a perfect example of the police being in a media fishbowl. Every action is scrutinized when the people doing the scrutinizing have no idea what went on, and don't have the capacity to present the full and complete story due to a lack of information from the police.

I have faith that in this case the police officers exercised the correct response based on potential and perceived immediate threats to the lives of family members and the woman herself.

I love the logic there. She MIGHT hurt herself so lets go ahead and hurt her to prevent that and subsequently kill her in the process. :confused: I still stand by the notion that this was excessive force and uncalled for.

Wasn't he an American Gladiator? ;)

Sounds pretty solid to me. Seems to me most police forces (military...whatever...) respond to the expectation of violence rather than the actual violent act itself.

They certainly could've let her work it out of her system and locked her in a room, but what if crazy-knife lady opened a vein or started poking holes in herself? What then? How well would that have played out? I imagine then we'd all be wondering why they didn't just taser her in the first place.

I don't care that they zapped her. As long as they exhausted all available options and weighed the consequences before they tagged crazy-knife lady, which from my armchair, it seems like they did. I mean, how desperate do you have to be to think that tasering a geriatric in a wheelchair is a good solution to your problem?

OOOOooooooh.

I am impressed with your command of the acronym. I didn't know that is what TASER stood for.

On the other hand, my impression wanes somewhat when I hear that you jump for the Tommy Swift Juice Machine as soon as you see someone with something in their hands at 15 feet.

edit: The rest of this post was a poorly written flame against the hard working men and women of law enforcement. I honour the memory of officers killed in the line of duty by standing beside them politically. They deserve the utmost respect a citizen can give them.

I apologize.

How do you know that they didn't try to bring it down a notch or two... The story says they tried to talk to her -- the taser might have been a last resort...

I don't. I just keep thinking, she's in a wheelchair. She can't really jump someone.

The only reason to do this is:

a) she has a hold of someone or someone cornered and is threatening them
b) she is going to hurt herself

I just don't see an old woman in a wheelchair being as much of a threat as a one who is not in a wheelchair.

Heck, you could get a long stick and knock over her wheelchair... it would have probably been safer.

Shooting an old person with a Taser is just not the smartest thing to do.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending granny's actions here. She was out of line... but it just seems to me that other things could have been done.


Again, what would they have done if they didn't have a taser (as many Police departments don't)?

Again...hindsight...20/20...armchair quaterbacking. Let's look at it this way. How would that have looked splashed all over the newspapers? "Police knock over little old lady in a wheelchair". I can just hear the outcry. "But why, why, oh why couldn't they just have tasered her, instead of brutally knocking her over in her wheel chair? Bullies!"

Trust me...there is no way to win these things. No...way.

Old person?!? She was 56. That's (*counts fingers*) 13 years away for me! How insensitive of you. You'll be hearing from the AARP. You just mark my words. :D

Sorry about the slight. It's not nice to tease the aged. :lol:

damn young whippersnappers... no respect i tells ya no respect at all...

What was she so pissed about anyway??

There was no better way to solve the situation. For all they knew they'd stun her just enough to disarm her and the situation would be ended. Tazors can be controlled depending on their setup. Some can have settings, some you only old the button for 1, 2 or 3 second. That sort of thing. So For all we know they only set it low.
But with the kind of tazor that has prongs, they would have to remove the prongs so they couldn't set it too low and not have it work either.

I will be interested to know what was actually the cause of death. Electrical charges should not cause heart failure unless the charge passes through the heart. With a Tazor the prongs conduct the charge from one prong straight to the other and in theory should have no effect on the heart.

I hope the cops don't get into any more trouble for this.

every news story on this - has said it was a family disturbance - and the family called in the police...

I could speculate anything -- she was drunk... dementia (I know how strong my 85 pound grandmother was when she was having an episode)... mental illness...

I've seen no reports that the family tried to stop the police from using the tazer... or that there's a lawsuit pending... (yet...)

Just because you're in a wheelchair doesn't give you the right to act a fool without repercussions. If I read correctly, the police TRIED to talk her into dropping the weapons before they tasered her. As it's already been mentioned...she could have thrown a knife at someone, and the cops would have been flamed for not doing something before she injured someone. The cops were probably just doing what they felt was right at the time...and sadly, the woman paid the ultimate price for her serious lack of judgment.

Lesson to be learned. Throw knives at a cop and you may not live to joke about it. Stupid people do stupid things and sometimes they get what they deserve. By that I mean getting tasered not dying. The police used the amount of force they assesed to be appropriate. Didn't knw it would kill her. Kind of a sucks to her thing.

Jumping back to the figures on page one, 70,000 taser uses and 60-something deaths. One in a thousand isn't a bad figure compared to what the alternative may have been. Bullets cause more deaths than tasers.

monday morning quarter backing is lame....

but i hope someone atleast said "hey mamn have a seat we'll be right with you"

Actually, I bet that would have worked. Waving a knive, hammers, or those big foam fingers that you see at football games, someone should have still been able to get behind the old woman. Certainly she was outnumbered in this situation (duh).

The taser is an excellent weapon and I've seen one in use against an able bodied man with a knife. But in the case of a woman on wheels, I'd have thunk the cops could have improvised.

It doesn't matter what the cops would have done...they can't do anything right in the eyes of the public. There is always a group of people who cry that it should have been differently.

1. Police subdue the lady with pepper spray. Public outcry that it was unnecessary to spray the lady in the wheel chair because she is obviously a knife weilding, non-threatening person because of the chair. If she dies, its because the police used excessive force. They should have either knocked over the wheel chair or waited until she wore herself out.

2. Police subdue the lady with a Taser. Public outcry that it was unnecessary to shock the lady in the wheel chair because she is obviously a knife weilding, non-threating person because of the chair. If she dies, its because the police used excessive force. They should have either sprayed her or waited until she wore herself out.

3. Police subdue the lady by shooting her. Public outcry that it was unnecessary to shoot the lady in the wheel chair because she is obviously a knife weilding, non threatining person because of the chair. If she dies, its because police used excessive force. They should have either sprayed her, Tasered her, or waited until she wore herself out.

4. Headline: "Knife Weidling Wheelchair Bound Woman Slits Wrists While Police Watch". Public outcry that the police did nothing while this lady, armed with a knife and who knows what else, was allowed to keep possession of the weapons and harm herself. If she dies, the public asks why the police stood by and took no action. They should have sprayed her, Tasered her, or shot her.


I could keep going. Shoot her with less than leathal bean bags? She gets knocked over, hits her head on the ground and dies of head trauma. How did the police know that she didn't have more weapons like a gun? They sit by and wait her out. In the mean time, she pulls the gun and starts firing. Two cops dead before she blows her own head off.

The police just can't win, no matter what they do.

again with the old... geeeez....

I haven't seen a picture of this woman - -but why is the assumption being made that she's this frail little gray haired grandmotherly type... 56 is really not that old... a 56 year old in a wheelchair doesn't neccessarily mean she's frail - just not as mobile as someone else... If she had the strength to flail around a hammer and a knife, my bet is that she wasn't frail...

I couldn't agree more. I mean Police have an increasingly harder job to do and they do it the best they. The typical citizen will not do the job and it is a job that has to be done. Police do the best they can with the resources that are available to them. I aplaud them and thank God that i do not have to be out tere in those situations.

OK. If she reads this, gets offended and posts about it I'll apologize.

But in this case one can't help but think there had to be some better resources than a taser.

It was highly unlikely that the Taser would be lethal, but it's not the cops fault that she died. Swinging knives is much more dangerous than a Taser, and the cops evidently had no intent to kill her, else they would've used their guns. Pepper spray would probably have sent her into a swinging frenzy, and a gun would make her drop the weapons, but probably kill a brittle old woman. I believe they made the right choice.

Tell me that if it were a man standing swinging knives and hammers that you wouldn't TASER him. Just back away and let him cool down? Just because she's in a wheelchair doesnt make her arms any less likely to inflict critical or fatal wounds. And hell.. someone in a wheel chair who's been that way for years can cover ground just as fast as someone on both legs.. (strong arms)

If it was someone more mobile I would be more likely to shoot them, since being inside there's only a second or two at most that you have before they're slashing and hitting you. Since it was unlikely the Taser would kill her, it was a good choice, and if it's bad luck, then she shouldn't have been trying to kill/mutilate/hurt people in the first place, especially her family and police.

first off to set one thing straight that someone mentioned-The FBI recently concluded that anyone within 21 feet of you can kill you about 50 percent of the time, even provided that you have a gun and know how to use it- because of this they now advise that if someone gets close to that range with a knife you SHOOT them (with a gun) We just had a training group of officers out of St. Louis come through to run V.S. Knife scenarios with airsofts, and found that stats to be pretty much accurate- In this case you are talking about someone in a chair, but the scenario pretty much breaks down to this-

Pepper spray- The subject flails around and hurts self, resulting in law suit- subject can still hurt self, and you, while you try to disarm them- and as they are blind and angry, and in pain, they will do so often....

Gun- Obviously a bit overboard

Taser- Statisticly unlikely to result in death, 99% effective, and lacking any lasting damage- and the subject will drop the weapon, and stop fighting-

We cannot know all the circumstances, but this woman was not listening to reason, and they had to do something- and I cannot fault them for doing what they did.....Anyone wielding a knife is a damn credible threat, so long as the arm holding it has any strength at all.....

Said it before, people are dancing around, i'll say it again: if you threaten a police officer with a weapon, you WILL and SHOULD be taken down IMMEDIATELY. Being bound to a wheelchair is not an excuse for threatening an officer with a weapon- and to suggest otherwise is pure stupidity, in my opinion.

[rant]

I'm confused that no one is thankful the stupid bitch didn't hurt or kill anyone before being tasered- which DID happen after a good degree of "talking down" that was unsuccessful. I'm shocked that people give two shits about this total moron who put the lives of her family members, and members of our police force in danger. And YES, waving a knife around is dangerous, wheelchair or not- note that a person in a wheelchair is more often there because their LEGS don't work, not their arms.

Being a police officer is a dangerous job. Those people put their lives on the line EVERY DAY because of stupid cunts like this one- people who don't give a fuck and do stupid shit that puts police officers in danger. I hate the word cunt, and I hate using it- that's how pissed I am about people bitching at the cops. You may not like them because you've been busted for smoking pot, they ticketed you for speeding in your yuppie sports coupes, or pulled you over because your stupid negligent ass lets your little kids run free inside your SUV or minivan- IN TRAFFIC... but they do a hard job, trying to keep things safe. Every profession has corruption, every profession has people with poor judgment. Some people need to get off their high-horses, pull their heads out of their asses, quit trying to monday-morning-quarterback the damn thing, and stop being so goddamn negative towards ANYTHING having to do with cops.

[/rant]

Looks like Green cove Springs Florida will lose money now. To bad. I fully support the taser. Shit happens now the family will be rich. The cops were down wind and could use mace. heheheheh

The worst part would have to be the family she was trying to kill will probably sue the cops for preventing them from being killed, and even if they don't win, it'll cost the police officers a hell of a lot of money for saving people's lives and defending themselves.
When I've seen these stories before, so often these bullshit lawsuits force the cops to mortgage their homes, drain their children's college funds, and sell their own possessions just to defend themselves for helping people who happen to be related to a bunch of fucking cunts who try to take advantage of the legal system.

I really wish we could enact a law immediately dismissing any law brought about by someone who brings such a fucking stupid case. I'm happy whenever I see someone who bring a frivolous lawsuit forced to pay court costs for wasting their time.

Here's a little more info on another news site

It seems she was schizophrenic, and had turned to flee after officers had unsuccessfully tried to talk her into putting down her weapons.

I'm glad to hear that her brother does not blame the police.

Another news site mentions that she was not in a room but instead she was OUTSIDE her home. This means there was no possibility of shutting her in a room till she calmed down.

Any more ideas of how this could have been handled better? I personally don't think there was anything else to do. Unless you have a specifically measured sedative in a dart gun handy.

sounds like another tragic accident to me, but tasers are better than cops always using guns. If people don't like that then should the police use tranquilizer darts instead and treat people kinda like animals?

This may be considered in bad taste since somebody died, but this video is the funniest video I've ever seen - Woman who bickers with a police officer gets tazed

Here's another story that in my opinion pertains to the original post: Parapalegic man stabs three people

I'm wondering how fast was she able to move her wheelchair, given

a) she had a weapon in each hand and
b) you usually use hands to control wheelchairs

I'd be pushing for special funding to buy the police broomsticks. They could have them in specially designated cars with these officers specifically trained to handle wheelchair bound threats, children and small animals.

Exactly. Im suprised how many people on this board automatically assumed that because she was in a wheel chair that they should have been more gentle with her. See the person, not the chair.

I'd imagine a more important measurement would be the average velocity of said weapons upon leaving her hand in a thrown manner.

Not too high I imagine..

It's just a hammer and a kitchen knive yes? Not that dangerous really, and quite likely to miss. I think the officer was a wimp to be honest.

The probability of her wounding someone with a thrown weapon vs the probability of her getting serious injury or dying from a taser. I'd say the latter is favourable.

I'm still not convinced. Knife throwing is not that easy, even while standing.

We tried it heaps as kids. Most times, the knife hits handle first. If a kid who looked like he knew what he was doing threatened to throw a knife at me (and it looked like a weapon, rather than a utility/kitchen knife) - I'd be worried.

But we're talking about an adult now. More commonly, I'd suspect that an adult with a knife is emotionally disturbed, or in some other distressed or medically abnormal state. This is particularly the case for a person choosing a hammer as a weapon.

What is a hammer going to do? Sure if you let somebody hit you over the head it could hurt. But a thrown hammer. It will do nothing unless it hits you in the face. And the head is a small target. A person can dodge. Having had stuff thrown at me by my brother - I reckon dodging is fairly easy. You can see a throw coming in advance, from the arm movement.

Getting away from the technicalities of the threat, there are a lot of mental-physical-emotional issues that can lead to aggression. A quick check would indicate that we're not looking a mass shootout situation here and so for me, given the gender, age and physical abilities of the "target", I'd be trying something other than force.

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that I've seen fairly aggressive adults with dementia, and other mental/physical impairments. I've even been threatened with a knife while working with the mentally disabled, albeit a little one. Oh yeah, and slashed in school once.

These police need to toughen up a little. Perhaps also they should be forced to work for a while, without weapons, in institutions that expose them to people with mental health issues, people with dementia and with the disabled.

I'm thinking that a one month stint in a hospital, a 'mental hospital', a aged care facility, and spastic care or car accident rehab centre would give them useful life skills.

she deserved getting shocked if she couldnt handle a zap from a tazer she souldnt of been swinging a knife. If someone in a wheel chair or not is swinging weapons around at a cop for all i care that cop can pick up a 2x4 and crack them in the face with it. The tazer normaly dosnt do any real damage and the fluke that it killed her this time was nothing but bad luck. The cops didnt do anything wrong.

Someone that uses a wheel chair normaly has very strong arms she could throw that hammer very hard and it would be easy to break bones with Just about any hammer. a kitchen knife could be anything from a small butter knife to a cleaver so who knows what that could of been. i Know i have knives in my kitchen that could kill if thrown at someone.

Actually it can be learned in an afternoon, with a balanced knife, but still a unbalance kitchen knife can kill when thrown across a room, a lucky hit on a leg or neck artery will kill in minutes; she still was a threat.
Stand 10 feet a way from me and see what I can do with a hammer ;)

Seriously, throwing a hammer will hurt you, especially if the claws hit first, breaking bone, and lord help you if it hits in the groin; she was a threat.

um... wow, taking away a cops weapon... wow... first off, they are not trained to deal with people with mental health issues, they are law enforcement, and second the only thing that protects cops from lawbreaker are there weapons, taking away a cop’s weapon is like taking away a firefighters hose.
The police were called by the family because the family knew the woman was out of the families control, the cops came and dealt with the situation as they saw fit, fallowing regulations. It is unfortunate that she died, but the taser was the right tool for the job.
For anyone out there that has not been tasered, its not that painful, its 2 prongs that stick into you, they hurt like a bee sting, and then the electricity is not so much as a pain, but it causes your muscles to spasm and you can no longer control your movement in the effected area. I find it fun, but that’s just me (the lack of self control). Further more, the cause of her death is still under investigation. To blame the cops for her death because they were following procedure is irrational, with out being there, we can only speculate. imo the cops acted accordingly.

I agree with all your points. then I looked at your location and your comments make perfect sense. I've spoken to aussies and they've explained how the police handle physical confronttations over there--including belligerently drunk, large men. if they were in any way accurate, I understand your confusion over what the hell our cops are doing over here. they aren't particularly trained in conflict management, although vast vast amounts of their time are consumed with it. they don't have any particular training in de-escalation, although it's time and time again shown to be more effective in resolving conflict than brute displays and exertions of force. there are just a myriad of reasons our police officers are still wedded to an out-moded orientation to the public (not the least already mentioned structural considerations of clearing cases and moving on in rapid fashion).

You would risk it? If your job was to protect and serve, and you had the option to diffuse the situation using a device that is non lethal (not in this case, obviously, but the officer had no way in hell of knowing it would kill her), only injures the offender and is guaranteed to diffuse the situation, why would you risk injury to yourself, to others, both the victim and the offender by not using that option? It is almost as if you're assuming the cops burst into the room, took one look and fired away with the taser.

That's true. Sadly - there is really insufficient information in these little clips. I agree, I really cannot judge the situation.

Moreso, what I'm doing is taking a speculative position based on the case "as presented". Partly for fun ok? Otherwise I'd not comment on any news whatsoever.

But yeah. I don't think that I'd fire the taser in that situation, around 97% sure. Regardless of the hammer and knife.

Pepper spray used on schoolgirl (Australia) - fits this thread I think.
 

Pepper spray used in schoolgirl's arrest:

"The Aboriginal Legal Service (ALS) has criticised Western Australian police for using pepper spray during the arrest of a 10-year-old schoolgirl.

Police were called to a primary school after reports that a girl was in possession of a brick and a pair of scissors.

Police admit to spraying the girl, but have defended their actions saying she was behaving in a violent and threatening manner. "

[Remainder of article available below. Source: ABC news, where A means Australia]


http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...6/s1663144.htm

That girl was warned repeatedly to drop the weapons, or else they'll use the spray. When the cops make threats like that, they'll carry through. Something this girl has learned - and if half an hour of pain teachers her for life it's well worth it.

Is the ALS similar to our ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) a group that tends to make mountains out of molehills?

Well that's a bit of an overstatement. 10 year olds these days aren't like 10 year olds 20 and 30 years ago, where we not only feared getting in trouble at school, but even more trouble would come when our parents found out we got in trouble at school...

Is pepper spray excessive - I don't think the article gives the entire story, but I'm willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt, for now anyhow, thery were there, I wasn't. I don't think pepper spray is the worst thing that could have happened to this girl

A ten year old with a brick and a pair of scissors can seriously kill or hurt someone; therefore it is completely justified as long as they tried to defuse it. The ALS would be whining more if the police had used a riot shield and smacked the kid on his ass.

Im going with BORs on this one... Can we safely assume that pretty much no matter WHAT ACTION THE COPS DID OR DIDNT TAKE, they were going to catch hell for it on the evening news?

If they didnt "use excessive force" they would have been "afraid of a little old lady". The media was just using whatever necesary to degrade ALL involved.

The wonderful thing about media... You can slant any story any way you want, to get the desired reaction from people.

Not quite. More like an attourney's response, really.

My understanding is that tazers and other electric shocks, if delivered with the right frequency that they interfere with the rhythm of the heart can cause it to stop beating or to beat arhythmically (I'm sure I've spelt that wrong). If that is true, there really is no right way to use a tazer and it comes down to where you hit them on the body and the timing of the shock as to whether you will kill them.

Consider that in Australia and many other countries tazers are illegal for use by both police and citizens. This is because those countries do not deem them safe for use. Australias rate of violent crime is much lower than the United States (especially homicides).

Some type of force was probably required in this case. I think a baton to the head would have done fine. Shoot her in the legs :-)

I'm not sure whether you were making this point seriously but I agree with this. We don't hire petite female security guards, we hire (at least in Oz) almost exclusively Tongans and Islanders. No one says that that is racist - they are obviously the best person for the job. But when its a state position we have to hire people based on politics.

This is a legal aid group. For me personally, I'd regard them as potentially biased, but mainly in the sense that they are advocates for their clients.

To me, the opinion of the ALS is secondary. The key point is that police should be able to restrain a 10yr old girl somehow else.

But then, I'm not sure exactly how bad the spray is. The main reported problems have been with asthma sufferers.

Ok. Where does it stop though.

If your daughter of 10yrs confronted you with a brick and scissors - is it ok to use the spray? Is it ok to use a taser. Simple?

Right. Now what if the kid is 7yrs old. Is spray ok? Is the taser ok.

Now - lets consider a five year old. She has a brick (yes dangerous) and scissors (pointed up!). You know that she has the potential for violence - she bit her brother yesterday.

She says that she will kill daddy. A quick response is needed because you are in a supermarket and surrounded by innocent shoppers... in the ice-cream isle actually.

I'm with Jeff on this one.

But as far as my own opinion goes... another one bites the dust. People make mistakes and they pay for them.

I've been hit with a taser in training, once was enough... and I'm still here. I am not a taser instructor yet, but the taser affects the nerves, not any cardiac rythyms. It works on volts, not amps.Voltage hurts, amps kill. Taser has .05 of an amp per application, about that of a strong static shock.

Amnesty International previously voiced a very strong anti pepper spray opinion, that "it was going to smother people, their skin will melt off... yadda yadda." I have athsma and I've been sprayed 5 times. I've been directly involved in spraying nearly 300 recruits with no medical incidents. The academy I teach at has over 1000 recruits exposed, no medical incidents.

There has been recent research into in custody deaths and how excited deleriums may be responsible for many of these incidents, coupled with other factors such as lack of recognition by officers and lack of pre-emtive EMS response. Excited deleriums can occur for a number of reasons, mainly related to psychotic episodes or use of stimulant drugs. Often, there is already a cardiac condition in the person (enlarged heart).

Think about working out, how your cardio goes up. The same thing happens in excited deleriums except the subject acts crazy, the Police come and typically a physical confrontation ensues. Tasers and pepper spray (OC, Mace) are less lethal options for road officers. We do all we can to prevent injury to ourselves and the subjects during the confrtontation, but in excited deleriums, problems start after the fight is over. A person in the excited state can have a pulse of over 200, and body temps of over 105 prior to a confrontation after a confrontation, it can be even higher. Once the police subdue the person, either the heart rate slows dramatically and blood vessels collapse, the heart stops, or the person is left in a prone position by Police and cannot support himself due to restricted oxygen intake. Death results.

Bottom line, less lethal options are not killing people, they die as a result of existing conditions and the cops are there. In custody deaths have not increased since the inception of pepper spray or tasers, in fact, lethal confrontations are decreasing.

Would there be a preference to return to the standard police baton or night stick? Think of the age of media we are in, and picture a badly bruised child or woman in wheel chair from a baton strike. Bad, bad, bad.

Thanks for all the support for law enforcement in here.

Amen. This kind of support on a non-law enforcement based website is rare, and very appreciated.